January 11, 20241 yr Why are we blasting these fixing broken stuff guys with super high federal, state and city wage rates when they didn't even know they would be making so much all of a sudden? This money should be coming from billionaires that hate trains.
January 11, 20241 yr There's a big push among conservatives to make up a myth of people leaving CA in droves. While there is some movement out, it's not really a big factor https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/09/leaving-california-exodus-evidence-myth Also, many conservatives are trying to make it seem that a large chunk of Californians are fleeing to red states like Texas to escape taxes but ironically Texas has higher real takes than CA. It's all based on jealousy. CA HSR's biggest benefit is going to be connecting the large Central Valley cities that were bypassed by I-5 and making it possible to commute from Fresno to LA if that's needed. Back to Jake's San Jose unhinged rant. Again, who cares if they benefit more than SF? San Francisco is actually a pretty small city all things considered. Part of the reason I'm so hopeful about the 3C+D line is that once the genie is out of the bottle and people see how much nicer it is to take the train than to drive, people will demand more. People will demand commuter rail from the suburbs, more trips between cities and rail transit within cities. It's too bad that republicans in this state are too worried about one trans kid wanting to play sports than addressing real issues that can help the state. I mean, Utah's GOP legislature can advocate for more rail transit while also being totally evil in all other respects. Why can't Ohio's?
January 11, 20241 yr 9 hours ago, Lazarus said: California has both a state income tax and a state capital gains tax. Nevada has neither, and it makes a big difference for high earners Yeah, but you also have to consider that would require living in Nevada... I'd take the higher tax rate to live in a nicer state and nicer city (if we're talking LA and SD metros)
January 11, 20241 yr 29 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said: There's a big push among conservatives to make up a myth of people leaving CA in droves. While there is some movement out, it's not really a big factor https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/09/leaving-california-exodus-evidence-myth Also, many conservatives are trying to make it seem that a large chunk of Californians are fleeing to red states like Texas to escape taxes but ironically Texas has higher real takes than CA. It's all based on jealousy. CA HSR's biggest benefit is going to be connecting the large Central Valley cities that were bypassed by I-5 and making it possible to commute from Fresno to LA if that's needed. Back to Jake's San Jose unhinged rant. Again, who cares if they benefit more than SF? San Francisco is actually a pretty small city all things considered. Part of the reason I'm so hopeful about the 3C+D line is that once the genie is out of the bottle and people see how much nicer it is to take the train than to drive, people will demand more. People will demand commuter rail from the suburbs, more trips between cities and rail transit within cities. It's too bad that republicans in this state are too worried about one trans kid wanting to play sports than addressing real issues that can help the state. I mean, Utah's GOP legislature can advocate for more rail transit while also being totally evil in all other respects. Why can't Ohio's? Transportation and good cities are actually a part of the Mormon religion. About the only religion I can think of that even thinks about that kind of stuff.
January 11, 20241 yr 21 minutes ago, GCrites said: Transportation and good cities are actually a part of the Mormon religion Eh...Having lived in Utah most Mormons hate SLC. They built the rail lines to help with attracting the Olympics and they're expanding because the Olympics are coming back. Also the LDS church is a major real estate holder and can make $ off selling real estate. The vast majority of LDS people in Utah are your typical Republican suburbanites. In fact, the Utah Jazz's new owner wants to build an arena in the burbs and away from SLC proper. Yes, they had the whole, "let's make the desert green" thing but now it's turned in to "what do you mean I shouldn't have a pristine lawn in a desert?"
January 11, 20241 yr 19 hours ago, Dev said: Ohio mentioned (finally): I like the map but the labeling makes it look like East Dayton is west of Dayton.
January 11, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said: Back to Jake's San Jose unhinged rant. Again, who cares if they benefit more than SF? San Francisco is actually a pretty small city all things considered. It's a statement of fact that San Jose will benefit much more from the chosen HSR alignment than San Francisco. Similarly, any major capital outlay for new passenger service between Chicago and Cincinnati will be of greater benefit to Indianapolis because logic dictates that improvements between Chicago and Indy will benefit both services whereas improvements between Indianapolis and Cincinnati will only benefit Cincinnati. This is why we can anticipate moves to limit the scope or even scuttle the plan from Cincinnati and Ohio.
January 11, 20241 yr 12 minutes ago, Lazarus said: It's a statement of fact that San Jose will benefit much more from the chosen HSR alignment than San Francisco. Similarly, any major capital outlay for new passenger service between Chicago and Cincinnati will be of greater benefit to Indianapolis because logic dictates that improvements between Chicago and Indy will benefit both services whereas improvements between Indianapolis and Cincinnati will only benefit Cincinnati. This is why we can anticipate moves to limit the scope or even scuttle the plan from Cincinnati and Ohio. I understand your point, but you're treating this as zero sum when it's not. A better question would be whether Cincinnati benefits more from routing through Indianapolis than having the route bypass Indy. I don't know, but I would guess the answer is yes. Even if you assume the answer is no Cincinnati is still much better off than if this connection didn't exist.
January 11, 20241 yr I think I understand what you’re getting at, @Lazarus, but I don’t think “this benefits _______ more than _______!” is a tactic Ohio’s politicians will use. We already saw the playbook last time, they’ll in bad faith argue that it’s “too slow and too expensive.” Especially since it’s coming from the Biden admin. We’ve seen this episode before.
January 11, 20241 yr Like most of their arguments it will be targeted at able-bodied middle class and up white men aged 25-65 with driver's licenses and decent cars.
January 11, 20241 yr On 1/10/2024 at 11:17 AM, GCrites said: I hear a lot of businesses in Ohio are moving to Portsmouth to get their taxes down Like all good humor, there is a smidgen of truth to it. Maybe not Portsmouth, but businesses have been moving out of Ohio for about half a century. Things seem to be equalizing a bit recently and hopefully that long-term trend will be reversed.
January 11, 20241 yr 3 minutes ago, Dev said: Ohio mentioned twice more: Now to get a connection between Kenton and Toledo, linking Findlay, Bowling Green (and BGSU) with cities beyond.
January 11, 20241 yr 3 minutes ago, westerninterloper said: Now to get a connection between Kenton and Toledo, linking Findlay, Bowling Green (and BGSU) with cities beyond. Why not keep that going all the way to Dayton for a Cincy-Detroit route???
January 12, 20241 yr Why stop at Detroit? TORONTO!!! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
January 12, 20241 yr "Train Travels To Toronto" Am I the only one who was told to say that as a kid to work on pronouncing "T"?
January 12, 20241 yr 13 hours ago, ColDayMan said: Why stop at Detroit? TORONTO!!! If we do that Detroit is going to benefit more than Cincinnati, though! We can't have that!!! /s
January 12, 20241 yr 13 hours ago, ColDayMan said: Why stop at Detroit? TORONTO!!! If you do that you might as well make it a loop and go through Buffalo and Erie as well.
January 12, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, PrestoKinetic said: If you do that you might as well make it a loop and go through Buffalo and Erie as well. Is there already Amtrak service to Buffalo, the Lakeshore Limited? Is there a connection in Buffalo to Toronto?
January 12, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, TMart said: Is there already Amtrak service to Buffalo, the Lakeshore Limited? Is there a connection in Buffalo to Toronto? Yes, yes and yes. But it's in the middle of the night, it's a long layover, and the border crossing is horribly long because no one wants to address any of these shortcomings. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 12, 20241 yr Study: Rail connecting Cincinnati to Cleveland could have $36M impact By Nicole Mistretta – Data Reporter, Dayton Business Journal Jan 12, 2024 A study by rail advocacy group All Aboard Ohio estimates a line connecting Cincinnati to Cleveland by way of Dayton and Columbus could generate more than $100 million in impact. MORE
January 17, 20241 yr On 1/12/2024 at 11:28 AM, PrestoKinetic said: If you do that you might as well make it a loop and go through Buffalo and Erie as well. do you mean … close the loop??! hmm, where have we heard that in downtown cle before? 😂🤷♂️ but seriously a lake erie loop shouldn’t be too hard in theory. via rail already has it covered up there from windsor east. i suppose there was no provision for rail across the new gordie howe bridge though … or was there ??? 🤷♂️
January 17, 20241 yr From the Ability Center of Toledo (ACT)... I am sending out the NEW Action Alert, concerning the need for the State of Ohio to rejoin the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission (MIPRC). Help Ohioans with disabilities be a part of the regional planning process for rail by advocating for Ohio to rejoin this commission. Access ACT's Action Alert below: https://actionnetwork.org/letters/ohio-needs-to-rejoin-miprc?source=direct_link& Reminder: We have till this Friday, January 19th, to let our Representatives know how important this initiative is. Thank you all again for your continued involvement and support! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 23, 20241 yr Article in Crains that definitely belongs here. Lots of discussion about the proposed stop at Cleveland Hopkins. The article seems to treat stopping at the airport as potentially in lieu of stopping downtown, which confuses me, since my understanding is that both stops are being proposed and have been proposed since pretty much the beginning. Obviously more planning and coordination needs to take place, but I'm not sure I see much conflict presently. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like more drama is being injected here than exists in actuality. Cleveland contends with competing agendas for proposed transit hubs https://www.crainscleveland.com/transportation/amtrak-transit-study-proposes-station-cleveland-airport
January 23, 20241 yr Bingo. This is a dumb, baseless article. A lakefront multimodal hub needs to get built no matter what happens with Amtrak expansion in the future. An airport station gets built only if there is expansion. To suggest otherwise is faux news. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 23, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Ethan said: Lots of discussion about the proposed stop at Cleveland Hopkins. The article seems to treat stopping at the airport as potentially in lieu of stopping downtown, which confuses me, since my understanding is that both stops are being proposed and have been proposed since pretty much the beginning. I think this is the key quote: Quote The two Cleveland routes under study on recommendation by the ODRC are not the same ones the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA) suggested. I wonder who has the ear of the ODRC. Highway lobby, which doesn't want trains to become any more convenient, and/or the freight railroads that don't want to have more passenger trains on their direct route along the lake, are two possibilities that come to mind. I'm all for either a lakefront station or terminal tower station (leaning lakefront with RTA connection to TT and CVRR connection to Akron-Canton), and I'm all for connecting the 3C airports by rail, but putting Cleveland's Amtrak station out at the airport only seems like a really bad idea. Thankfully RTA will have some new rail cars long before we get a new Amtrak station, and maybe even new RTA track (downtown loop! -- I know, I'm a broken record).
January 23, 20241 yr The confusion is from the article mentioning two different expansion projects without really explaining either. From what I remember NOACA's recommendation was to focus on expanding east-west routes, like the Capitol and Lake Shore, over building out the 3C+D. I didn't think this would add a station at Hopkins. The ORDC and Columbus sought funds for the 3C+D project instead, which would likely have a stop in Hopkins. In either case downtown would need a new hub, unless someone thinks the 3C+D route terminates at the airport which would be extremely unlikely and stupid. Quote The two Cleveland routes under study on recommendation by the ODRC are not the same ones the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA) suggested. NOACA’s application looked to connect two existing long-distance Amtrak routes and create a “mini-Cleveland hub,” according to Grace Gallucci, NOACA’s executive director. “The routes would increase service frequency and add different origins and destinations,” Gallucci said. By upgrading existing routes rather than building out new infrastructure, the cost would be less, she added.
February 10, 20241 yr Rejoining MIPRC would be a significant step towards expanding passenger rail on Ohio, no? And bipartisan support in both chambers seems promising, though I'll withhold full optimism. Bills being drafted for Ohio to rejoin multi-state passenger rail commission The Statehouse News Bureau | By Sarah Donaldson Published February 9, 2024 Ohio lawmakers from both parties and chambers are planning to introduce concurrent bills later this year to rejoin the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission (MIPRC). In 2013, the state relinquished its MIPRC member status under Republican former Gov. John Kasich—and according to a news release from the Democratic caucus at the time, didn’t settle member fee debt for some time after. The decision came after Kasich turned down $400 million in federal grants for an Amtrak line running from Cleveland to Cincinnati. ... The Ohio House’s version of a bill to do that will be introduced in the next month or so, Skindell said, and several of his GOP colleagues have signed on to it. He has brought the idea forward before, but not in the form of a bill. https://www.ideastream.org/2024-02-09/bills-being-drafted-for-ohio-to-rejoin-multi-state-passenger-rail-commission Edited February 10, 20241 yr by Luke_S
February 10, 20241 yr One of the few things I was able to achieve when I was with All Aboard Ohio was to get Ohio to join MIPRC. I worked with Lorain Republican Jeffrey Armbruster (owner of multiple gas stations in Ohio) to sponsor this legislation and shepherd it through the General Assembly. He got the committee meeting scheduled and I got supportive organizations to testify for its passage. Then a new type of Republican came in -- immature, short-sighted, angry and corrupt -- and destroyed this and other efforts to move Ohio forward in partnership with others. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 13, 20241 yr This doesn't involve the 3C+D line, but instead the Chicago-Pittsburgh line. It would be a second rail connection for the Columbus metro: Dublin passenger rail? Suburbs and small towns seek to be part of Ohio's Amtrak expansion Another proposed Amtrak route would connect Pittsburgh and Chicago through Columbus. It's that route that the city of Dublin wants to be on. A CSX Transportation track passes through the western portion of Dublin, where the city owns 100 acres near state Route 161 and Houchard Road. https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2024/02/12/dublin-and-crestline-want-amtrak-stations-as-ohio-seeks-passenger-rail/72367470007/ edit: To clarify, Dublin seems more serious about it than the other Columbus 'burbs proposed. Edited February 13, 20241 yr by GCrites
February 13, 20241 yr 9 hours ago, GCrites said: This doesn't involve the 3C+D line, but instead the Chicago-Pittsburgh line. It would be a second rail connection for the Columbus metro: Dublin passenger rail? Suburbs and small towns seek to be part of Ohio's Amtrak expansion Another proposed Amtrak route would connect Pittsburgh and Chicago through Columbus. It's that route that the city of Dublin wants to be on. A CSX Transportation track passes through the western portion of Dublin, where the city owns 100 acres near state Route 161 and Houchard Road. https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2024/02/12/dublin-and-crestline-want-amtrak-stations-as-ohio-seeks-passenger-rail/72367470007/ edit: To clarify, Dublin seems more serious about it than the other Columbus 'burbs proposed. Dublin has done a GREAT job in preparing for a potential rail station! They already own the land around the station including 3000 linear feet along the track. They are working on an economic plan for the area with all the right concepts and have the LinkUS folks involved to make sure it’s a regional hub. Really good things going on there. The long distance plans that will come out this week will have a Detroit-Toledo-Columbus-Dayton-Cincy-Louisville-Nashville-New Orleans route proposal. It’s possible that route might also go through Dublin. (I should point out that a more easterly route through Marion and Delaware is also a possibility, in which case it would not hit Dublin). When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 13, 20241 yr CSX has three routes coming north out of Columbus, two of which go to Toledo. If CSX access to Marysville/Honda from the Indianapolis Line can be preserved, it makes sense for CSX to sell the line through Marysville and Dublin to the state, port authority, Amtrak or a private operator like Brightline. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 13, 20241 yr One has to wonder what Brightline's plans are after Florida and NV/CA. Do they have any eyes on the Midwest?
February 13, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, Miami-Erie said: One has to wonder what Brightline's plans are after Florida and NV/CA. Do they have any eyes on the Midwest? They do, if their recent USA maps are to believed. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 14, 20241 yr I don't understand Brightline's thinking on some of these lines. Amtrak already offers higher-speed service from Chicago to St. Louis and across Michigan. Why double-up when Brightline could purchase Genesee and Wyoming held track in Ohio and build the 3C line themselves.
February 14, 20241 yr Great video! Worth watching and sharing... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 14, 20241 yr 59 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said: I don't understand Brightline's thinking on some of these lines. Amtrak already offers higher-speed service from Chicago to St. Louis and across Michigan. Why double-up when Brightline could purchase Genesee and Wyoming held track in Ohio and build the 3C line themselves. I mean, Brightline is doubling up on existing Amtrak routes in Florida. But only one or two trains a day is not service. It's a line on a map -- a placeholder. Five trains a day CHI-STL at up to 110 mph is closer to service, but still not what could be done here. And Amtrak doesn't own that service. The Illinois DOT does. Amtrak is just a contract operator. In the past, IDOT has put the CHI-STL route out for bid and got offers from private sector operators including UTDC and even Union Pacific put in a bid. The hope was to get a more competitive response from Amtrak and they did -- before the Passenger Rail Service Act of 2008 and its Sec. 209 forced all states to pay an equal amount to Amtrak, pro-rated for the services they receive. In most cases, all states paid more. So now might be an opportunity for more states to put their services out to bid again and see what kind of responses they get. I think Brightline buying up rights of way makes a lot of sense. If I were them, I'd first try to buy CSX's redundant Walbridge (Toledo)-Columbus line (with CSX rights into Marysville retained) then acquire G&W from Gary, IN to Bucyrus, OH, and secure operating rights over the South Shore RR into Chicago. I'd also go after G&W lease of the Ohio-owned Panhandle Line, plus the former Wabash Railroad Maumee District, acquiring ROW segments from Lucas County, Whitehouse Village, City of Maumee, the Napoleon, Defiance & Western Railroad and Norfolk Southern, plus CN's Detroit & Toledo Shore Line as well as rights to develop rights of way along the Ohio Turnpike, and acquire Norfolk Southern's surplus NKP line into Cleveland. Once you have these principal pieces, Brightline has the ability to create a five-route system: Chicago-Ft Wayne-Toledo-Detroit Chicago-Ft Wayne-Columbus-Pittsburgh Chicago-Ft Wayne-Toledo-Cleveland Detroit-Toledo-Columbus Detroit-Toledo-Cleveland "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 14, 20241 yr It would skip Dayton and Hamilton, but Brightline could purchase/partner with G&W to use the line from Cincinnati to Columbus via Wilmington and Washington Courthouse. That area is pretty rural and could be updated to higher speeds with fewer stops.
February 14, 20241 yr 54 minutes ago, KJP said: Chicago-Ft Wayne-Toledo-Detroit Chicago-Ft Wayne-Columbus-Pittsburgh Chicago-Ft Wayne-Toledo-Cleveland Detroit-Toledo-Columbus Detroit-Toledo-Cleveland My retirement dream is to see this come to fruition by the time I finish work in 2040 or so - and retire in Toledo.
February 15, 20241 yr Isn't that how rail works in Spain? Private operators competing with the State using the same rail lines and stations?
February 15, 20241 yr 4 minutes ago, Pablo said: Isn't that how rail works in Spain? Private operators competing with the State using the same rail lines and stations? Yes. Spanish high speed rail network has been opened up the last several years and “low cost carriers” are operating. Costs have dropped and ridership has skyrocketed. Even with all the new competition, the state carrier’s ridership is up. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 15, 20241 yr The infrastructure in Spain is owned and managed by a state entity though so it's not a perfect 1:1.
February 15, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, Dev said: The infrastructure in Spain is owned and managed by a state entity though so it's not a perfect 1:1. This is the way. I wish our society was in a position to nationalize the rail infrastructure (passenger AND freight). That would put rail on a level playing field with truck (freight) and auto (passenger) competition. I know it’s a pipe dream. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 15, 20241 yr Hopefully we can see the modern version of this: When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 15, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: This is the way. I wish our society was in a position to nationalize the rail infrastructure (passenger AND freight). That would put rail on a level playing field with truck (freight) and auto (passenger) competition. I know it’s a pipe dream. I imagine that nationalization of the network will happen eventually, but it probably won't start gaining momentum until Zoomers are fully into voting age and climate change really starts to hit.
February 15, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: This is the way. I wish our society was in a position to nationalize the rail infrastructure (passenger AND freight). That would put rail on a level playing field with truck (freight) and auto (passenger) competition. I know it’s a pipe dream. Fortunately that n word is still considered obscene in this country.
February 15, 20241 yr 59 minutes ago, E Rocc said: Fortunately that n word is still considered obscene in this country. The nationalization of our road infrastructure is the only thing that enables the lifestyle that you repeatedly and incorrectly insist Americans prefer. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
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