Ugh... So now Cincinnati will have two perfectly good train stations (Union Terminal and Riverfront Transit Center) that aren't being used for their intended purpose. :roll: At least this is only temporary. I really hope they have some sort of express shuttle bus that will connect the train station to downtown, or else they may as well terminate the line in Sharonville. And how will the 3C trains connect to the Cardinal that already stops at Union Terminal?

 

As for "strong opposition" to the boathouse site, is this mostly NIMBY opposition from homeowners on Eastern Avenue? It's been common knowledge for years that the Oasis Line is slated for passenger rail service, so what are these people going to do when the Eastern Corridor project starts running?

... too bad about Cincy Union Station.  It's a gorgeous Art Deco structure but, as noted, it's just too far away from the Cincy CBD ... I wish it could be used but it's probabally not feasible.  Its current museum function is probably best; esp to keep it preserved and functional, unlike Detroit's which is slated to meet the wrecking ball.

... too bad about Cincy Union Station. It's a gorgeous Art Deco structure but, as noted, it's just too far away from the Cincy CBD ... I wish it could be used but it's probabally not feasible. Its current museum function is probably best; esp to keep it preserved and functional, unlike Detroit's which is slated to meet the wrecking ball.

 

I think Detroit's Michigan Central has been granted a reprieve for the moment (thank god).

 

I think the plan is still to move the permanent station over to Union Terminal.

It's a gorgeous Art Deco structure but, as noted, it's just too far away from the Cincy CBD ... I wish it could be used but it's probabally not feasible.

 

I disagree. With a streetcar and/or light rail connection to downtown, Union Terminal (not Union Station) is a perfect train station, and could serve as an anchor for transit-oriented development in the West End.

 

The biggest hurdle is the congested freight yards behind it; adding more passenger trains to the mix isn't feasible at the moment. However, if some project is undertaken that can expand capacity and/or relocate some of those switching operations to somewhere else in the area, then Union Terminal could once again be used as a passenger rail hub. If needed, the museums could be moved into new buildings on either side of Union Terminal's approach drive, where there's currently vast surface parking lots.

 

The Greyhound bus terminal could also be relocated to Union Terminal, which would make it easier for long-distance buses to serve as feeders into the rail lines, as well as open up additional land for development at Broadway Commons.

 

 

CUT can certainly be used under current conditions if new passenger platforms are built above the existing freight yard.  Temporarily, 2 tracks is enough and long term no more than 4 or 6 will be necessary.  These elevated platforms can be reached via a new viaduct across the yard to the abandoned mainline on the west side of the mill creek, then join the B&O mainline at the yard throat near Nortside via a half mile of new track and another bridge over the Mill Creek. 

 

I hate to bring this up, but as part of the I-75 rebuild they could have designed a combination of median and tunnel that could have allowed passenger trains to travel directly in line with it to reach either CUT or The Riverfront Transit Center or a new station under Central Parkway. 

My thought is that so much freight uses the CUT rail yards because other rail yards in the area were decommissioned or downsized.  Thus, freight took over former layover points where the former concourse stood.  It's a bit hard to take back rail for passenger use when it's already been used by freight companies for 40 years.

 

I know that there was a rail yard under the Beechmont Viaduct, between Wilmer (with Lunken directly next to it) and Eastern.  They tore out several tracks about 7 years ago.

This is an incredibly bad move. When ridership into Cincinnati lags it will be very hard to justify additional spending to create an improved station. Mt Adams concerns were absurd. One lady at the meeting, who lives on Eastern Avenue,  said the noise from the current trains was no worse than the noise from the bars in Mt Adams.

CUT can certainly be used under current conditions if new passenger platforms are built above the existing freight yard.  Temporarily, 2 tracks is enough and long term no more than 4 or 6 will be necessary.  These elevated platforms can be reached via a new viaduct across the yard to the abandoned mainline on the west side of the mill creek, then join the B&O mainline at the yard throat near Nortside via a half mile of new track and another bridge over the Mill Creek. 

 

I hate to bring this up, but as part of the I-75 rebuild they could have designed a combination of median and tunnel that could have allowed passenger trains to travel directly in line with it to reach either CUT or The Riverfront Transit Center or a new station under Central Parkway. 

 

Agreed... I think the concerns about using Union Terminal are incredibly overblown. It's not as if the Mill Creek Valley is so built-up that they can't possibly make room for some extra tracks and platforms at CUT, probably for a fraction of the money they'll be pouring into the Brent Spence and various I-75 projects in the same area. They're missing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to coordinate the rail and highway projects, and kill two birds with one stone.

my only concern with CUT is the distance from downtown if there is no complimentary streetcar/light rail.

:clap:

Video just posted to the 3CIsME.Ohio.Gov website:  Remarks by Governor Strickland and USDOT Secretary LaHood about Ohio's passenger rail plans:

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/PublishingImages/Strickland_LaHood_Rail_9-22.wmv

I'm sorry. Union Terminal is a great building but it was poorly located when they built it 80 years ago and it still remains relatively poorly located. They built it there because there was space and the city could get a whole lot of train tracks out of the way in the center of town where the old stations used to be. It used to be a park - Lincoln Park in fact. I'm sorry. Cincinnati's most important trade routes have traditionally run north/south and guess what Queensgate serves - a service point for traffic crossing the river. Passenger rail is wonderful and great but freight rail is still far more important.

^Well said.

I'm sorry. Union Terminal is a great building but it was poorly located when they built it 80 years ago and it still remains relatively poorly located...

 

There's nothing wrong with having to use connecting transit to get from Union Terminal's to downtown, as long as that connecting link is reasonably fast and convenient. It worked when the facility first opened, and it can work again. Having the main intercity train station right downtown would be ideal, but there's actually very few American cities where that's the case. Philadelphia's 30th Street station requires a transfer to a subway or commuter rail line to get into Center City. Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal in NYC require subway rides to get to the Financial District, or even to other parts of Midtown. Hoboken Terminal, Flatbush Terminal, and Jamaica Station aren't even in Manhattan. Three of Chicago's four downtown train stations are on the periphery of the Loop, and require a bus, subway, or a long walk to get to the Loop proper or to the Magnificent Mile. London's train stations are scattered all over the place.

 

One possibility for Cincinnati would be to use Union Terminal as the primary passenger rail hub, but having some trains continue through CUT and terminate at Riverfront Transit Center (or, if they're coming via the Oasis Line, stop at RTC on their way to CUT). This would be somewhat similar in nature to the situation in Boston, where South Station is the primary rail hub, but with the Back Bay station serving as a secondary destination that's actually much more convenient to that city's more popular neighborhoods. Back Bay station doesn't need to accommodate lengthy layovers or extensive passenger facilities, and isn't any larger than RTC.

 

Besides that, RTC doesn't have the capacity to be a major rail hub, and neither does the boathouse site. The fact of the matter is that a passenger rail facility of any consequence will need to be located someplace that isn't within a quick stroll of Fountain Square. With that in mind, CUT is the only logical choice.

"It worked when the facility first opened.."

 

  What transit do you speak of? Cincinnati Union Terminal was designed for taxis, buses, and streetcars. The streetcars were never built, thoough. In the museum center, you can see the signs for the taxis and buses. A similar sign for streetcars was never installed.

 

    Interestingly, the streetcar ramp was the very first part of the passenger station to be built.

 

 

Lots of passenger trains came in and out of CUT from the time it opened until the 1970's. Somehow people found a way to get to and from the station. With a streetcar connection, it will be even easier to get to/from CUT.

 

    The trouble with bringing passenger trains to Cincinnati Union Terminal is not just with the station, but with bottlenecks at both ends of the yard. Go watch the trains at the Spring Grove Avenue bridge, for example. There are three main lines there, and sometimes all three of them have slow-moving freight trains on them. This section of three parallel tracks continues all the way to Winton Place, where more connections enter the mix. The Mill Creek Valley is a congested corridor, plain and simple.

 

    I like Jake's idea of using the line on the west side of the Mill Creek. It bypasses Union Terminal, but lines up nicely with the transit center. There is only one railroad crossing near river road - I think they call it the "Oklahoma" track. A connection across the Mill Creek would be necessary - there used to be a bridge. Or, if you want to dream, the old right of way through Northside and Spring Grove Cemetery could be reopened. A underpass under I-74 would need to be rebuilt.

 

    I saw a train on that line on the west side of the Mill Creek yesterday. That line used to be the B&O main line from Cincinnati to Toledo. It was originally the Cincinnati, Hamilton, and Dayton, the second railroad to reach Cincinnati. Today it's called the Cincinnati Industrial Track. Today it is used infrequently. The train I saw had a locomotive, two freight cars, and a caboose.

 

     

  Other than the WWII years, passenger traffic at CUT has been a disappointment. Even when CUT opened, people joked that one should drive down to see the new railroad station.

 

    Amtrak uses it today, but it gets hardly any traffic.

The fact that the Cardinal only calls three times a week and stops at ungodly hours of the morning probably has more to do with CUT's lack of use than its location. Even if somebody is willing to arrive at 3:00 AM, there are no car rental places nearby, and Metro bus service has already stopped running for the night... You're pretty much forced to take a taxi. 3C trains will offer much more convenient hours.

 

Union Terminal's location isn't the problem; the problems are the lack of capacity on the freight tracks (which can be solved with some creative planning, as Jake mentions), and the transit connection to downtown. The latter can be solved with the streetcar and/or light rail in the long term. In the short term, it's a matter of getting Metro to provide direct shuttle bus service between CUT and Government Square. That should be a no-brainer.

People are talking about shuttles.  In the Lunken case, an adjusted Rt. 28X bus would serve it just fine.  For CUT, we already have Rt. 1.

Amtrak uses it today, but it gets hardly any traffic.

 

Because there's only one train for every two days, obviously.  The waiting room is jam packed when people *are* waiting for the *single* train.  Multiply that by three or four.

I can't believe you saw a train on that track, unless you're talking about when they park things down by Longworth Hall.  This track actually used to ramp up to the C&O Bridge, which is hard to believe, but it did. I did see an engine pulling a caboose around a few weeks ago, maybe it was the same one.   

 

>ctually very few American cities where that's the case

 

Few cities around the world have rail stations in a "perfect" location. It's rare for anyone slightly old and out-of-shape to walk from a European rail station to their hotel with their luggage.

 

The main advantage of CUT from an operational standpoint is its direct alignment with the CS and C&O bridges.  No other station location, except one near the Ivorydale Junction has this advantage.  And Amtrak has already declared that it doesn't allow trains to be backed up in the manner necessary for a train in the Transit Center to be backed all the way back to CUT simply to cross either of the bridges. 

 

Most people would take a cab from CUT to their hotel or destination.  To extend streetcar service from where it is currently planned to the station is a hair over 1 mile, or at least $50 million.  This is kind of dumb because there are virtually zero developable properties on this route. 

    For the record, I saw the train yesterday about 12:30 crossing Gest Street at grade. I am sure it didn't go very far north, as the track in that area is completely covered in weeds by the time it gets to the Western Hills Viaduct. I see a handful of trains per year on that line.

 

    Question: is there any reason why the 3-C line should connect with the Amtrak Cardinal? Is there a lot of transfer traffic expected?

 

    Yes, ideally all of the passenger rail systems should be connected, but you can't have everything you want. Terminating the 3-C line in Sharonville will certainly save a lot of up-front cost, and it allows for a second Cincinnati-area station near downtown Cincinnati in the future.

Here are the issues preventing use of CUT or even a station at/near Longworth Hall which was recommended by a city-hired consultant several years ago:

 

> All north-south rail traffic must go through the Mill Creek valley to cross the Ohio River. The loss of the L&N bridge (the Purple People Bridge) as a railroad facility forced this situation.

 

> The NS Dayton District line backs up to Sharonville with freight trains waiting to get into Queensgate Yard. That's 14 miles. Except for abandoned industrial tracks, this area was traditionally two main tracks, as it is today. In other words the mainline is at full build-out.

 

> South of Control Point NA (Winton Place), CSX owns the right of way for five miles into Queensgate Yard. A third main track was added here the mid-90s on a vacant track space to help address congestion. There are no more vacant track spaces to be had.

 

In both segments, additional tracks will require significant property acquisitions (triggering additional environmental assessments), some demolitions, utility relocations, grade-separations, widening railroad bridges, redesigning existing road bridges, and earthmoving. Projected cost is $25 million per mile. Some sections of the passenger-only track would have to be elevated to bridge over converging/diverging freight tracks.

 

None of this is required for Amtrak's existing Cardinal which runs just three days a week and has a great deal of schedule padding. Thus it is much less of a impediment to freight traffic than six daily 3C trains.

 

And is CUT even the best downtown station for Cincinnati? To be eligible for federal funds, the permanent downtown Cincinnati station site for 3C, existing Amtrak, as well as for a future HSR route to Chicago would have to be subjected to a screening process that conforms to the National Environmental Policy Act. There would also have to be public support for and/or no opposition to the recommended site.

 

Spending an additional $350 million for a 14-mile passenger-only track from Sharonville to downtown Cincinnati isn't going to happen for six trains a day. It probably does make sense for a high-speed service with multiple daily trains, plus some commuter trains thrown into the mix.

Gin,  I'd love nothing better than for trains to use Union Terminal -- whenever there's a book, website or PBS show about Art Deco, UT is almost always id'd as a signature palace... but you can't get around the fact of its isolated location from downtown, streetcar connection (itself speculative) or not.... Plus, we've got to look at startup costs along w/ where the terminal would be the most accessible while having the best impact on the home city (I'm just guessing, admittedly here; others know better than I)...

 

.... heck, here in Cleveland, I absolutely feel Tower City is the best location for passenger trains, aesthetically, connection-wise (all downtown RTA buses, the Health line BRT end/pas thru out front of TC + 4-Rapid lines pass-thru/terminate here); plus there's abandonned passenger ROWs (unlike the heavy freight corridor along the lake (where the current/new station is going) TC, like UT, was BUILT as a train station, 1st... and unlike UT, TC is hardly isolated but the center of downtown, traffic-wise and w/in blocks of most amenities, hotels and shops -- and I didn't even mention it's one of the mixed use/air-rights prototypes of the nation...

 

.... but alas, we can't use it for 3-C.  I hate it, but it would make no sense esp given the reconfig the building has taken in becoming a mall and office/sports complex connection.  The Lakefront Mall/conv center  location -- which ironically the original TC builders duked it out with and defeated -- is where 3-C/the Ohio Hub need to be at this time... I hate that glorious TC is reduced to merely a subway terminal and a mall, but whatareyagonnado?... I want TC as a terminal, yes, but I want 3-C up and running, too... Sadly we can't have both....

 

... too bad about Cincy Union Station.  It's a gorgeous Art Deco structure but, as noted, it's just too far away from the Cincy CBD ... I wish it could be used but it's probabally not feasible.  Its current museum function is probably best; esp to keep it preserved and functional, unlike Detroit's which is slated to meet the wrecking ball.

 

I think Detroit's Michigan Central has been granted a reprieve for the moment (thank god).

 

I think the plan is still to move the permanent station over to Union Terminal.

 

Good to hear (just days after the last piece of Tiger Stadium, blocks away, was torn down)... but wrecking the MC terminal, esp w/ its location btw trendy (growing) Corktown and Mexicantown would be, to steal the phrase involked when NYC's classic Penn Station met the wrecking ball: the greatest public rape in history.  (with apologies to our female posters who sadly may have come close to or experienced the real thing)

The problem with Union Terminal is its location on highly congested mainline freight rail. It is iconic but that doesn't mean it needs to be a train station for the rest of eternity for all types of rail. I'll say it again, until there is talk of extending 3C to someplace in Kentucky, I don't see why a mid-town stop would be more useful than getting it to the river. Sharonville is too far out but somewhere in the vicinity of the Norwood Lateral isn't.

Why is no one discussing the amount of investment that *would* occur in Queensgate with the announcement of higher volume rail returning to CUT?  I keep hearing that it's a lost cause, because the neighborhood has been replaced by parking lots and low-density structures, but look at all the infill opportunities.  Industry should remain in Queensgate and the West End, but it's also where green industry should be aggressively sought.

The problem with Union Terminal is its location on highly congested mainline freight rail. It is iconic but that doesn't mean it needs to be a train station for the rest of eternity for all types of rail. I'll say it again, until there is talk of extending 3C to someplace in Kentucky, I don't see why a mid-town stop would be more useful than getting it to the river. Sharonville is too far out but somewhere in the vicinity of the Norwood Lateral isn't.

 

Is it not enough that Cincinnati will be a hub for connection to Indy as well?  We are fighting to remain in the running for a stop on the 3-C at all, in order to remain regionally competitive.  If cities like Columbus, Indy, and others manage to get stations in the heart of the city--meanwhile ours is at least 30 minutes away by car--once again we will have lost our chance to remain equally competitive with our neighbors.  At present, we certainly aren't up on Indy or Cleveland.

> All north-south rail traffic must go through the Mill Creek valley to cross the Ohio River. The loss of the L&N bridge (the Purple People Bridge) as a railroad facility forced this situation.

 

To clarify, Union Terminal is on the Mill Creek lines. A pair of large viaducts were purpose-built in the early 1930's to connect the C&O and Southern RR bridges directly to the station. So one freight and one passenger approach reached each bridge, totaling four approaches. These viaducts were disassembled when passenger service ceased and the station's 16 platform tracks were overtaken by the Queensgate freight yard, but The Cardinal, which uses the easternmost yard track to reach CUT's sole surviving platform, reaches the C&O Bridge via the freight approach viaduct.   

 

The L&N would have never been viable for Amtrak since it would mean the reintroduction of one mile of street-running on Saratoga St. in Newport, KY. The Cardinal uses the C&O Bridge because the C&O line to Washington, DC runs on the south (Kentucky) side of the Ohio River.  It could not use the Southern RR bridge without a clumsy 20-mile backtrack in Kentucky.   

 

Union Terminal is as far from downtown Cincinnati as Michigan Central is from Campus Martius -- both 1.5 miles.  The difference is that a zig-zag through the Cincinnati street grid is necessary to get downtown whereas Michigan Ave., a diagonal avenue, passes right by Michigan Central Station. This adds maybe 1/2 mile to the trip.

 

Again, most travelers and businessmen who aren't picked up in a private car will take cabs to and from any of these stations. They are short cab rides costing under $10.     

 

   

Also, Indianapolis trains used to reach CUT via the C&O "west side" line, which was abandoned in the 1980's between CUT and the Fernald Uranium plant, about 10 miles out. 

 

You can see the old west side C&O viaduct snaking in the distance, and the C&O Bridge and Southern RR Bridge approaches in the foreground:

It takes ten minutes to get from midtown to downtown, which would be shorter than a stop all the way down @ Lunken, which is to far east to be centrally located in the entire region. If we are going to use Oasis, then they should look at midtown. It is clear than bringing regular passenger rail of 3C style to CUT is a longer term investment. I would add that midtown is as accessible to the universities, Blue Ash, and the like as Lunken or CUT.

I agree that a Norwood or Sharonville terminus makes more sense from an operations standpoint, but the Lunken station might be advantageous politically because it's so obviously unfair. A Lunken station could get the west and central neighborhoods fired up and willing to vote to fund a new station and widespread rail improvements. And I'd be willing to bet that's why this is happening.   

 

 

 

  About 1990 the Indiana and Ohio Railroad tried to rebuild a 3 mile length of the former CL&N between Brecon and Mason, in northern Hamilton County and southern Butler County. This would have rejoined two segments of the railroad, allowing a continuous segment between Norwood and Lebanon, and allowed the Indiana and Ohio Railroad to consolidate their operations in one place.

 

  Construction would have been as simple as laying track. Everything else was already in place. There was no tax money involved.

 

    The feds turned it down based on complaints by neighbors. This was NIMBY at its worst.

 

    So, railroads must take complaints by neighbors seriously.

I have a friend that lives right above the Oasis Line. It can shake his house. Trains tend to cause its greatest NIMBYism over the horn at crossings, though trains are quite loud. The bigger train folks can speak to the degree to which things like rail and train car quality and design could lessen the noise issue with trains.

I did some poking around on Google Earth and found some comparative distances between various cities' train stations and central business districts or points of interest. All these are "as the crow flies", which means the actual driving/walking/transit distance will be slightly longer depending on how direct the route is.

 

Cincinnati:

Union Terminal - Fountain Square: 1.5 miles

 

Chicago

Union Station - Water Tower Place: 1.6 miles

Chicago & North Western Station - Millennium Park: 1 mile

 

New York City

Grand Central Terminal - Wall Street: 3.8 miles

Penn Station - Wall Street: 3.2 miles

Penn Station - Bloomingdale's: 1.5 miles

Flatbush Terminal - Columbus Circle: 5.7 miles

Hoboken Terminal - Times Square: 2.7 miles

 

Boston

South Station - City Hall: 0.6 miles

 

Philadelphia

30th Street Station - City Hall: 1 mile

 

Washington, DC

Union Station - Washington Monument: 1.7 miles

 

London

Waterloo Station - St. Paul's Cathedral: 1 mile

Victoria Station - St. Paul's Cathedral: 2.5 miles

St. Pancras Station (Eurostar Terminal) - Trafalgar Square: 1.5 miles

 

Paris

Gare du Nord (Eurostar terminal) - Eiffel Tower: 3.2 miles

 

Union Terminal's distance to downtown is well within the range found in other cities. The major difference is that your bus or taxi is going through fairly desolate neighborhoods instead of busy city streets, but that will change as OTR blossoms, I-75 is rebuilt, and a revitalized Union Terminal makes the surrounding neighborhood more attractive. When I first moved to Chicago in 1993, the area around Union Station was a desolate no-mans-land. Now it's one of the hottest parts of downtown.

 

Nobody doubts that adding track capacity to Mill Creek Valley will involve some major infrastructure work. But that work is small potatoes compared to:

 

- NYC building miles of connecting tunnels through solid bedrock and an entire new rail terminal 120 feet below Grand Central Terminal.

- A new trans-Hudson rail tunnel and station 180 feet below 34th Street.

- Connecting Philadelphia's Suburban Station and the elevated approach tracks to Reading Terminal with a new 4-track tunnel through the middle of downtown, including an entire new underground station.

- Connecting Boston's South Station and North Station with a new rail tunnel through downtown Boston.

- Building a new train station under Clinton Street in Chicago to accommodate high-speed rail trains.

- Building a new Brent Spence Bridge and rebuilding I-75 through the Mill Creek valley.

- Building miles of deep-bore tunnels and stations under the city to connect London's various rail terminals.

 

All these projects are either completed, in construction, or have been seriously proposed. All of them are many orders of magnitude more complicated and more expensive than making room for a couple more railroad tracks in the Mill Creek Valley. New York, Boston, Philly, and Chicago would kill to have a passenger rail facility like Union Terminal, even if it meant having to re-work some existing freight tracks in order to make it happen.

 

Is it worth it just for the 3C project? Maybe not. But when you add the Midwest Hub high-speed rail system, additional 3C service, regional rail service to Lexington and Louisville, existing or expanded long-distance Amtrak service, and future commuter rail service, then the need for a major passenger rail facility in the long term becomes apparent.

^Excellent post, LIG.  Cincinnati tends to look at itself and its challenges in a bubble, not realizing the great lengths that other cities go to create efficiency.

 

The only thing I'd point out is that you used all world cities or cities greater than 3 million.  Cincinnati isn't really in that realm, but perhaps you're using it to point out the great advantages we have, and opportunities to create a world class city.

Most people would take a cab from CUT to their hotel or destination.  To extend streetcar service from where it is currently planned to the station is a hair over 1 mile, or at least $50 million.  This is kind of dumb because there are virtually zero developable properties on this route. 

 

I bet all the people in City West would appreciate the streetcar service, and it could stimulate the Linn St. business district...

>New York, Boston, Philly, and Chicago would kill to have a passenger rail facility like Union Terminal, even if it meant having to re-work some existing freight tracks in order to make it happen.

 

You hear people say CUT was "the wrong station in the wrong place".  Well, the truth is that CUT was built by a consortium of railroads who were looking 100 years into the future. The Cincinnati metro has doubled in population since construction of CUT, but the city paved over 200 miles of streetcar tracks, another 100 miles of interurban tracks, and built 200 miles of free expressways that robbed not just Cincinnati but Hamilton County of significant population and commerce. 

 

Cincinnati was and still is to some extent "the gateway to the south", that's why a station location was chosen that allowed direct, flood-proof access to the Ohio River bridges. Alternative CUT locations were Central Parkway or what is now Broadway Commons.  Those locations would have been reached by extensive tunneling and would not have had the capacity CUT had.  Those locations did not allow for 100 years of growth as did CUT, but at the time the jet and automobile age could not have been anticipated.  And that the railroads were left to die while GM, Ford, and the other car companies bullied the federal government into building 50,000 miles of free expressways couldn't have been anticipated.

 

CUT was built almost entirely by private funds, including surrounding road projects like The Western Hills Viaduct. There has never been such thing as a privately built highway in Ohio since the 19th Century turnpikes.         

 

Union Terminal is as far from downtown Cincinnati as Michigan Central is from Campus Martius -- both 1.5 miles. The difference is that a zig-zag through the Cincinnati street grid is necessary to get downtown whereas Michigan Ave., a diagonal avenue, passes right by Michigan Central Station. This adds maybe 1/2 mile to the trip.

Michigan Central Station was built with the idea that Downtown was going to be moving in that direction.  Corktown was envisioned as the new center of the city.  It didn't pan out.

 

The biggest difference between all the other cities that have been mentioned is that they have light rail/subway infrastructure already in place.  Cabs? okay, that's fine...and Union Terminal certainly isn't half an hour from downtown as i think someone inferred.

 

My only worry here is that Cincinnati is not nearly forward thinking enough to allow this to happen.  I am afraid that 3C will go through, the trains will come to CUT and then that's going to be it for our rail infrastructure because people here don't look past next week and without an instant bloom in redevelopment they'll go into "told you so" mode.

 

Since moving down here, i've grown more pessimistic.

I'm not opposed to using CUT someday, but it is clear from ORDC that beginning service CUT would result in poor service. If you want to kill a future for passenger rail in Ohio for a long time, make decisions that result in slow, unreliable service. I'm also less confident that a full build-out of passenger rail will happen before CUT turns 100 years old.

Then what do you suggest KJP? I'm not trying to be cocky but I just keep reading what won't work and I would like to know, given the situation, what would.

 

 

I've stated my preference in previous messages -- make Sharonville the temporary southern terminus. A lot of the questions and speculation posted in the last couple of days has been addressed in previous messages in this thread.

 

 

The L&N would have never been viable for Amtrak since it would mean the reintroduction of one mile of street-running on Saratoga St. in Newport, KY.

 

 

I wasn't suggesting Amtrak would use this, nor was I suggest freight. But what I was saying is that the only other way to get freight traffic across the Ohio River without going through the Mill Creek valley (and past CUT) was the L&N bridge. Its loss as a rail facility concentrated all freight traffic to the Mill Creek valley.

 

I suppose a really complicated alternative to the Oasis Line and the Mill Creek valley is the former PRR into the old Court Street Station site area. But at this late stage of the game and the very tight timeline for submitting the federal funding application, I just don't think this option can be adequately screened and still meet NEPA guidelines.

Most people would take a cab from CUT to their hotel or destination. To extend streetcar service from where it is currently planned to the station is a hair over 1 mile, or at least $50 million. This is kind of dumb because there are virtually zero developable properties on this route.

 

I bet all the people in City West would appreciate the streetcar service, and it could stimulate the Linn St. business district...

 

Without a doubt you have City West, parts of which still aren't finished yet, then you also have the "Gateway Park" development at CUT itself. Betts Longworth Benefits as well.

3C Passenger Rail & the C & LE Interurban.  Neither one makes it to downtown Cincinnati, ending at some distance from downtown propert.  C&LE at Winton Place,  3C in either Sharonville or Lunken. 

 

I have to say this is looking like the train to nowhere.  Reminds me of the old South Shore Line. Starts in the heart of Chicago, station accessible right of Michigan Avenue.  Station in front of downton Gary.  Street running in downtown Michigan City, but ending (at the time) at a small station in the western suburbs of South Bend.

 

So 3C will have a station on the lake in donwtown Cleveland, a station at the convention center in Columbus, in the middle of the hot Arena District/Short North area, a station in downtown Dayton somewhere, and,, for Cincinnati, pffffft....Sharonville!  Or Lunken Field!  Yay! 

 

 

Lunken is the most ideal in terms of accessibility.  Can you imagine getting into a ridiculous traffic jam on I-75, trying to get on a train?

 

I'll take Eastern Avenue to my train.  Certainly.

 

I believe it would be closest to Wilmer and Beechmont Circle, but I could be wrong.

Currently it takes only 15 minutes via the Rt. 81X Metro bus from 4th and Sycamore to Delta and Stanley, which is only a couple miles from Lunken via Eastern.

 

It take 10-12 minutes for the standard service Rt. 1 Metro bus to go from 4th and Walnut to Union Terminal.

 

I'd say that it's a pretty reasonable alternative, adding an express stop and an over-length bus, which I hear Metro already has at its Queensgate garage.

3C Facebook page has 979 “friends” in barely a week….still time to push it over 1,000 ….so spread the word.

 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ohio-3C-Quick-Start-Passenger-Rail-Plan/134456767470

http://209.51.133.155/cms/index.php/news_releases/more/3c_train_benefits_could_be_2x_greater_than_ohios_cost/

 

3C traveler benefits could be 2x greater than Ohio's cost

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE — September 25, 2009

Contact:

Ken Prendergast

All Aboard Ohio Executive Director

(216) 288-4883

[email protected]

 

With 3C “Quick Start” passenger trains slated to be the least expensive way of traveling in Ohio’s most populous travel market, Ohioans could end up saving more than $36 million per year, or nearly double the state’s proposed contract with an operator to run the trains. That’s just part of the economic impact story according to a new report released today by the nonprofit educational organization All Aboard Ohio.

 

Ohioans will still be making trips in the Cleveland – Columbus – Cincinnati (3C) Corridor but for less money. Those savings, plus increased travel resulting from the 3C “Quick Start” trains, could stimulate additional consumer spending of $111 million per year. In other words, the annual economic benefit of 3C “Quick Start” would equal the estimated one-time start-up investment of up to $517 million in less than 5 years, and exceed the combined start-up investment and cumulative annual operating contract payments in just 5½ years.

 

View the full report at:

http://members.cox.net/ohiohsr/Traveler-economic%20benefits%20from%203C.pdf

 

“This detailed document shows that, without a doubt, Ohio’s citizens will see real benefits from 3-C rail service,” said All Aboard Ohio President Bill Hutchison. “With numbers like these, the 3C “Quick Start” passenger rail plan is clearly an economic stimulus. It really is time to get Ohio moving on passenger trains!”

 

As impressive as these benefits are, they still do not include spin-off benefits such as from the construction and operation of the 3C “Quick Start” passenger rail service, or from real estate developments and increased property values around stations. For example, the state of Maine invested less than $100 million in its “Downeaster” train service which triggered more than $7 billion in new construction investment, almost 7 million square feet of new commercial space and 18,000 new jobs.

 

The state’s $17 million annual operating support for the 3C trains would represent just 0.4 percent of the Ohio Department of Transportation’s budget. Less than two percent of ODOT’s $3.8 billion budget is spent on transportation modes other than roads. No funding will be diverted from road or public transit projects to pay for 3C trains.

 

“Ohio needs to do more to provide expanded and interconnected rail and transit system for the 2½ million Ohioans who don’t drive because of age, health, the high cost of driving or personal preference,” Hutchison said, citing U.S. Census data as well as recent surveys of young professionals. “These people matter greatly to Ohio’s economic future yet they aren’t able to fully participate in the state’s economy. And the Census says these immobilized Ohioans will grow by 10 percent by 2030.”

 

END

I wonder if Ken Prendergast is related to Enquirer writer Jane Prendergast...(i'm assuming so).

Don't assume as you would be wrong. There is no relation between us.

No offense intended, obviously just ignorance.  It's an unusual name.