(Quote) “You have to force the people who want to do this to prove that future generations of Ohioans won’t be saddled with something we can’t afford and don’t use,” Husted told a luncheon meeting of the Dayton Rotary Club at Sinclair Community College.

 

I wonder if he ever made the same demand of those favoring the I-75 improvements or the 70-71 Split in Columbus?

 

I wonder if he ever asked his constituents if they wanted to be "saddled with" the $1.2 billion a year it costs to maintain Ohio's highways?

 

 

I hope Senator Husted gets the same amount of "justification" for 3C as the State is planning to spend $ 75 million on a U-Turn lane on I-75 and the Edwin C. Moses Blvd interchange just south of Dayton near the U. D. Arena.

 

 

KJP, they are not spending $75 million on a "U-Turn lane on I-75."

 

The recent construction project letting is part of the Interstate 75 Modernization Project through downtown Dayton, which involves the reconstruction of over a dozen bridges, the partial realignment of the interstate to remove sharp curves, the reconstruction of the OH SR 4 interchange, the consolidation of interchanges, and the removal of left-hand interchanges. Construction began in 2007 and will be completed in 2011.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D07/Projects/I75Modernization/Phase1A/Pages/default.aspx

 

It's these misrepresentations that really call into question some of the comments made in favor of the 3C line. The "$4 billion" Mill Creek Expressway project (which is remotely nowhere near $4 billion in cost), the Interstate 75 Reconstruction Project (which numerous people have said is $75 for a U-turn, not just you), and so on. Let's play a level field here.

IMHO, the best response following the editorial was this one:

 

By KeepinItReal

April 11, 2010 11:28 AM | Link to this

Americans are too fat, stupid and lazy to deserve what advanced countries with educated populaces have. They would much rather bankrupt themselves than to give in to any kind of progress that might puncture the fantasy world they live in. Americans don’t have to worry about a post-fuel future, because as everyone knows, the Earth is filled with a creamy nougat center of crude that will last into infinity and beyond.

 

Lifted right out of the James Howard Kunstler playbook! Nasty!

 

Of course those same Americans would rather not be talked down to by highbrow East Coast intellectual snobs either...

^^OK... level playing field it is. The total estimated cost of the Downtown Dayton I-75 rebuild is approximately $509 million. http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D07/Projects/I75Modernization/Phase1A/Pages/default.aspx

 

Phase 1a - $157 million

Phase 1b - $71 million (this is where KJP's U-turn figure came from I believe, but there is more to the project then just the Edwin C. Moses U-turn)

Phase 2 - $280 million

 

So for roughly the same cost as rebuilding one highway through one medium Ohio city we could connect the 3 largest metros in the state plus Dayton with rail? Oh, and $400 million of that money is federal money. People against the 3C love to throw out $400 million to scare people HOPING that they never look into what transportation contruction projects actually cost. Case in point, the Dayton I-75 rebuild.

I would LOVE a level playing field. I know we'll never get one, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

 

I have never heard so many double-standardisms about what the 3C project needs to do (ie: not be subsidized, break even, be a part of the free market, be funded be private enterprise, etc. etc.) in my life. Makes me sick.

 

It boggles my mind that a subsidy-gobbling colossus is ignored (or fraudulently called user-funded) while this little rail project comes squeaking along asking for a little bit of love that the concrete Kraken gets.

This was just e-mailed to me by a member of All Aboard Ohio...

 

When I first moved from Ohio to NC to work for Amtrak, the Piedmont was a three car train that rarely filled more than one coach. It is now consistently running with five cars and new service (FINALLY, after many delays) is about to begin.

 

  The Piedmont service is HEAVILY used by college students and parents are comfortable with sending unaccompanied children on the trains. The train is safe, there is a chain of custody involved and many of the students, parents and children know the crews. My wife personally knows one woman whose ex-husband lives in the Raleigh area and they use the train for their son's transportation for visitation.

 

The weekend trains have been dubbed by us as "The Laundry Run" due to the number of college students headed home on the weekends with their bags of laundry. This is how one builds the ridership.

 

I've seen how it works. I've seen the steady gain in ridership as service has improved over time. It will work in Ohio as it has everywhere else. Being here in Charlotte I can attest to the drain of youth and families from Ohio. Many of them are here because they see no future in Ohio. I came here to get my foot in the door with Amtrak. The 3-C will bring me back.

No one argued that here KJP. By level playing field, I referred to people's comments. If one is to wrongly peg the "U-Turn" ramp at $75 million, and continue to rattle anyone who drives an automobile, then how can one take pro-3C comments at face value?

 

The "U-Turn" ramp is actually Phase 1B (correctly identified by Hootenany), which involves the elimination of some interchanges and/or ramps, and the construction of a ramp from SB I-75 Moses Blvd. ramp to NB I-75 Moses Blvd. ramp. It also involves the reconstruction of several bridges and the reconstruction of the roadway, among other things.

BTW, my previous post of an All Aboard Ohio member's comments, as well as those by Jim Uber yesterday in this thread are exactly the kinds of stories I'm wanting to hear more of.

 

We can cite and debate all kinds of statistics that are pro-rail or anti-rail. But what isn't debatable and cannot be attacked are the personal reasons why someone wants the 3C rail service. If there is a will, then state officials need to find a way. It is up to ODOT to figure out how to design it and to legislators to figure how to pay for it.

 

So what's your story? Why do you want 3C trains? What need might they fill for you?

 

Here's one example: Deborah Nebel [email protected], the disability coordinator for Linking Employment, Abilities and Potential (LEAP) in Cleveland, wanted to have a number of her clients attend the Ohio Environmental Council Lobby Day April 14, 2010 at the Columbus YWCA to meet with their elected officials and personally convey their desire for more state funding for trains & transit. While wheelchairs will fit on a train they won't fit on an intercity bus and the only bus that gets to Columbus early enough to attend a 10 a.m. meeting leaves Cleveland at 4:30 a.m. Her clients also couldn't afford an airline ticket ($700+ per person round trip) which is only slightly more expensive than her only "option" which is to rent a special van for $600. So her clients were excluded from participating in the political process as fully as able-bodied Ohioans are -- by the very transportation system they sought to ask their leaders to make more inclusive.

 

What's your 3C story?

All Aboard Ohio Cincinnati gets on track to promote 3C Rail

Soapbox, 4/13/2010

 

In recent years the Cincinnati Chapter of All Aboard Ohio has fallen by the wayside. The organization - comprised mostly of rail enthusiasts -  had lost its steam.

 

"The Cincinnati end (of the statewide organization) had kind of fallen off," said longtime member and Cincinnati/Tri-State Regional Coordinator Beau Tuke.

 

But it's amazing what $400 million in stimulus funding can do. Ohio was awarded those funds for a proposed rail project that has the potential to transform passenger rail across Ohio and the Midwest. All Aboard Ohio is mobilizing across the state, including in Cincinnati to raise awareness and garner support for state adoption of the 250-mile 3C corridor that would connect Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati through daily train service for the first time in 40 years.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/innovationnews/412aboard.aspx

"We can cite and debate all kinds of statistics that are pro-rail or anti-rail. But what isn't debatable and cannot be attacked are the personal reasons why someone wants the 3C rail service."

 

So, personal reasons from someone who does not want 3C rail service is no longer allowed?

Do we listen to personal reasons why someone may not want roads when we build them?

^NIMBYs squash projects all the time.

 

Although I think the argument "I don't want the trains because it will run through my backyard and be too noisy" is an infinitely better than " I don't want the trains because I don't think anyone will ride it", but I haven't heard that first one yet.

"We can cite and debate all kinds of statistics that are pro-rail or anti-rail. But what isn't debatable and cannot be attacked are the personal reasons why someone wants the 3C rail service."

 

So, personal reasons from someone who does not want 3C rail service is no longer allowed?

 

You can share them, but I won't be collecting them.

^NIMBYs squash projects all the time.

 

"I don't want the trains because it will run through my backyard and be too noisy"

 

That's why the stupid Boathouse station was nixed in favor of the even stupider Lunken Airport station. 

^NIMBYs squash projects all the time.

 

Although I think the argument "I don't want the trains because it will run through my backyard and be too noisy" is an infinitely better than " I don't want the trains because I don't think anyone will ride it", but I haven't heard that first one yet.

 

I haven't heard many (or any) NIMBY arguments here.  It's all about it being "a waste of money" or "I won't ride it".  I don't use ANY roads in Cincinnati but that doesn't mean I don't think money should be spent on them.

^Exactly.  I may never drive the Dayton section of I-75 again in my entire life, but that doesn't mean that I am against it's reconstruction and modernization.  A robust transportation system will benefit the entire state, not only the area it directly serves.  The 3C will be the first step toward a robust rail transportation system in Ohio.

 

Husted is just another, eternally campaigning, politician who has selectively tapped into a bipartison concern that government is the servant of special interests rather than the people (with a "special interest" being defined as whatever someone else is interested in that you aren't). Like many people, they don't let facts get in the way of what feels right and, unfortunately, in this economy, nothing feels right.

 

As Obama discovered with health care, you don't try to convince people like him to change his mind. Instead, you demonstrate enough leadership that people trust you more than they trust the other guy.

 

At the start of the health care debates more than 80% of Americans felt that something needed to be done about the system. By the time of the vote, more than half those people no longer supported reform. In part that is because Obama failed to steer the process, instead leaving it up to the Democrats in Congress. It takes real skill to turn a victory into near defeat.

 

Strickland has, unfortunately, not learned that lesson. He is letting his Transportation Secretary fight the battles when he should be stepping up to the front of the line. After all, the guy got the state $400 million. Why is he letting the Husteds paint that as a gun being held to the state's head?

 

 

Two question:

 

Does anyone know what the average number of times a train rider who uses this type of service uses it per year?

 

If we have 11 million people in ohio and AECOM is predicting 478,000 riders in the first year that means if each person that rides, rides it one time we're expecting 4.3% of Ohioans to ride it.  But if on average each rider rides 2 times a year, we're expecting 2.1% of Ohions to ride it which is a significantly smaller number of people...(continue extrapolation)...

 

Secondly, Is the 478,000 a prediction for one way rides or round trips?

 

 

Two question:

 

Does anyone know what the average number of times a train rider who uses this type of service uses it per year?

 

 

I don't think so. But it assumes some people will be riding it numerous times per year, as the 30,000-40,000 vehicles that use the rural sections of I-71 aren't all different vehicles/people.

 

If we have 11 million people in ohio and AECOM is predicting 478,000 riders in the first year that means if each person that rides, rides it one time we're expecting 4.3% of Ohioans to ride it. But if on average each rider rides 2 times a year, we're expecting 2.1% of Ohions to ride it which is a significantly smaller number of people...(continue extrapolation)...

 

Secondly, Is the 478,000 a prediction for one way rides or round trips?

 

They are for one-way rides. Same as the way vehicle counts are done to measure road traffic. So the 30,000 to 40,000 vehicles per day on rural I-71 may actually be as few as 15,000 to 20,000 different vehicles per day.

 

Why is he letting the Husteds paint that as a gun being held to the state's head?

 

 

Good question. This is where Strickland could have a field day. The Senate Republicans agreed to the ODOT biennial budget passed last year which authorized ODOT to apply for federal funding for the 3C passenger rail project. The GOP gave ODOT permission to seek the funds but now are not allowing ODOT to use the funds (eg: there aren't three 'yes' votes among the GOP members of the controlling board).

    "I don't want the trains because it will run through my backyard and be too noisy"

 

  The NIMBY argument also killed a project to restore 3 miles of the abandoned CL&N between Blue Ash and Mason, a move that would have connected two sections operated by the Indian and Ohio Railroad.

 

    I'm not sure why the FRA, a federal agency, has any input from local NIMBY's, but apparently they do, and apparently local NIMBY's have more clout than railroads.

Actually, it will be very close to my backyard

After all, the guy got the state $400 million. Why is he letting the Husteds paint that as a gun being held to the state's head?

 

Because he's scared he could lose his re-election over it.

 

That was a really good post, by the way.

BTW, my previous post of an All Aboard Ohio member's comments, as well as those by Jim Uber yesterday in this thread are exactly the kinds of stories I'm wanting to hear more of.

 

We can cite and debate all kinds of statistics that are pro-rail or anti-rail. But what isn't debatable and cannot be attacked are the personal reasons why someone wants the 3C rail service. If there is a will, then state officials need to find a way. It is up to ODOT to figure out how to design it and to legislators to figure how to pay for it.

 

So what's your story? Why do you want 3C trains? What need might they fill for you?

 

Here's one example: Deborah Nebel [email protected], the disability coordinator for Linking Employment, Abilities and Potential (LEAP) in Cleveland, wanted to have a number of her clients attend the Ohio Environmental Council Lobby Day April 14, 2010 at the Columbus YWCA to meet with their elected officials and personally convey their desire for more state funding for trains & transit. While wheelchairs will fit on a train they won't fit on an intercity bus and the only bus that gets to Columbus early enough to attend a 10 a.m. meeting leaves Cleveland at 4:30 a.m. Her clients also couldn't afford an airline ticket ($700+ per person round trip) which is only slightly more expensive than her only "option" which is to rent a special van for $600. So her clients were excluded from participating in the political process as fully as able-bodied Ohioans are -- by the very transportation system they sought to ask their leaders to make more inclusive.

 

What's your 3C story?

 

Which one? I've been up and down I-71 so many times I know every bump, crack and pothole. I'm on a first name basis with the Highway Patrol. If ODOT gave out frequent driver miles, I'd be in the Platinum Club.

 

Here's a few:

 

a) A routine 2:30 drive from Columbus to Cleveland becomes a four hour marathon, due to a pileup.

 

b) Cruising along late one night, I come over a rise and encounter a truck on its side. I narrowly miss the truck.

 

c) A traffic jam on a Sunday evening just north of Delaware. Everyone is trying to get back to Columbus after the weekend. No accidents. Just too many cars.

 

d) A bus ride from Columbus to Cleveland. I get bumped to a second bus, which they call out with a fuel tank that is missing its cap. The bus spews fuel all over the lot. We wait until the mess is cleaned up and leave an hour late. We are packed like sardines.

 

e) Another disasterous bus ride, this time from Cleveland to Columbus. A huge mob waits for the bus and I get bumped to a fifth (yep) bus. I'm hours late.

 

f) A white knuckles drive in a snowstorm. Trucks are blowing past me, even tho the road is just a track and visibility is very poor.

 

Other times, I have had very smooth trips, but oh how I wish I could snooze the miles away on a train or read.

 

Well, this isn't 3C, specifically, but I think that it is useful in terms of what might be when 3C is part of a larger network. Perhaps it belongs in the Amtrak board, but I think that the closing argument is pertinent to 3C.

 

From 2006-2008 I was an expert witness in a trade secrets case which was being heard in Charleston, SC. There were a number of pre-trial motions and motion hearings and the judge had little patience for either party believing that the parties should have settled long before. Being in Pittsburgh meant that I had to travel to Charleston, frequently, to be there for two to four days at a time. Much of my work involved reviewing the testimony of other witnesses and preparing questions for counsel to pose during cross examination.

 

From Pittsburgh, the Capitol Limited departs for Washington around 6 AM and arrives in Washington just after noon (when on time). The Silver Service leaves DC just after 8 and arrives in Charleston around 5:30 AM making the entire trip just less than 24 hours. For each trip, I brought my laptop, cellular modem and all of the case materials which just about filled up the available space in the sleeper. Once settled, I would boot my laptop, and arrange the case materials on the remainer of the bunk/couch and work until the train arrived in DC. Once there, I would check most of what I wouldn't need for the remainder of the trip and take my laptop and remaining materials to either the Capitol Grille or Johnny's Half-Shell, both of which were less than a block from Union Station where I would work until it was near boarding time.

 

There is a liquor store in Union Station where I would get a 250 ml bottle of Belvedere and a half bottle of wine for the remainder of the trip. I made that trip so often (about every other week for six months out of each year), that the porters and dinning car stewards got to know me and there were always two glasses of ice in my bedroom for cocktails.

 

Try getting that kind of attention on an airplane and don't even bother trying to BYOB!

 

In the one full day that I would spend, each way, either on the train or near the station, I got more done than in a week at the office where I am constantly being interrupted. Having a relaxing day before and after the hearings gave me the time that I needed to prepare before the hearing and to digest what had happened during the hearing.

 

Now I'm not suggesting that traveling 3C would be anything like this, especially when it hits speeds in excess of 110 mph.

 

But it does point out the difference between the glass half empty and the glass half full argument.

 

My colleagues would ask me why I would want to spend the day on the train when I could spend less than half that by flying. I asked them if they opened their laptops or reviewed the case while in the air (no) or on their way to or from the airport (no). I asked them if they went to the office before their flight (no) or upon their return (no).

 

So in their day of traveling, they got nothing done while I put in a day's work. And by the end of the day, I was relaxed and prepared.

 

People who try to compare the trains to planes, cars or buses miss the point. Different modes of transportation require different ways of thinking about how you organize your day, your work and your life.

 

^  :clap:

There is considerably more time in waiting (before takeoff and after landing) when flying than when driving.  Also, if your destination is in the city, there is less ground travel time after arrival.  So it's probably more like 17 hrs vs. 48 hrs.  But take into account that about 16 hours of that travel time can be used for a nice night's rest (which you would have to do upon arrival or prior to departure when flying) and your awake travel time is more like 17 hrs vs. 32 hrs.  Now factor in that you can spend much of the 32 hrs relaxing or doing work, whereas you are spending intermittent chunks of that 17 hrs getting to the airport, getting through security, waiting for flight, boarding, catching connection, waiting for bags (hoping they made the connection as well), getting a rental car, then driving to the city.

Including connections, a flight from Pittsburgh to Charleston is approx 5 hours, no real need to get to know the stewardesses personally or long enough to need your own bottle! So what you really are comparing is 10 hours travel vs 48 hours travel. Organizing their time probably frees up as much work time as you.

 

While I spent more than 5 hours on the train, I did NOT spend that many hours in direct contact with the personnel. In fact, one of the advantages is that I could have my own room and socialize, or not, when I wanted. As for the rest, my point was that in a 24 hour period, I was able to accomplish a full day of work. I cannot say the same for my colleagues.

 

Maybe that's better for you, but not really any better argument than those on the other side.

 

Really? I don't know many consultants who can bill their full rate for travel time, especially if they decide to travel by car. I, on the other hand, billed an 8 hour day for the full 8 hours, which I worked and slept when i would have slept, anyway. And, in the process, I got to enjoy changing scenery, good seafood and a relaxing trip.

 

And my point was not that I drank a whole bottle of wine on the trip; I didn't. My point was that I can carry that, and pretty much whatever I want, onto the train (wine, cheese, pate, etc.), and enjoy it.  Try that on a flight.

 

I feel sorry for you, DanB. You don't seem to enjoy life much except when you are disparaging others for their experiences. If you want to post positive comments about a 12-hour drive to Charleston, SC. (or anywhere for that matter), be my guest. I promise that I won't be as critical of you.

 

And having trained, flew and driven the same trip, I'm in a position to compare. How about you?

 

 

 

 

DanB:

 

Funny you should use a quote from Abraham Lincoln.

 

You might be interested in the fact that Lincoln championed the development of the Country's first transcontinental railroad. You might also be interested in the fact that under Lincoln's plan, the governments investment was $60 million, in comparison to private investment which was $4 million. (Look up: The Pacific Railway Act July 1, 1862).  The Transcontinental railroad has been compared to the Internet in terms of its effect on national commerce and the national culture.

 

 

It's really about an individual and their preferences, or what works for them. Obviously, the train worked best for seanmcl. Given his conversations with his colleagues, we can draw the conclusion that they would likely also have benefited from using the train. Although they decided not to, so we don't know for sure. That can lead us to reasonable speculation that some people may have unfounded biases against the train (although, again, we don't know that they would have liked/benefited from it).

 

DanB's point basically amounts to: there are some people who the plane might work better for.

 

Actually, his argument is a bit more complicated. It seems to go: for someone who acts with optimum rationality (scheduling their day(s) appropriately), the plane should work better. Even if we assume that to be true (there are some complications to consider, like seanmcl pointed out, but it still might be true), the bottom line is that, no matter what the optimal behavior is, only some people are so disciplined as to act that way whenever they want. And even among those people, it may be more comfortable for them to act in a suboptimal way. Comfort is a variable which DanB's assessment doesn't account for, but influences decision making.

 

My assessment: DanB makes reasonable points when looking at the situation abstractly. However, he fails to account for nuances which go into actual decision-making and preference-forming, which are illustrated by seanmcl's concrete experience.

 

amidoinitrite?

 

 

  In the train vs. car arguments, it also matters what kind of vehicle one is riding in. If you have a nice car, for example, the experience will lend more weight toward the car than if you drive an uncomfortable car.

 

    DanB said that he has XM, and also that he likes to drive alone, so we can deduce that he drives a pretty nice car.

 

 

 

  I bet it's still a pretty nice car.

Again, that goes back to personal preference, which doesn't lend itself naturally to reason. It's primarily emotional.

Hottinger not on board state's rail plan

By KENT MALLETT • Advocate Reporter • April 14, 2010

 

NEWARK — State Rep. Jay Hottinger, a member of the State Controlling Board, said Wednesday he cannot support the state’s passenger rail plan connecting Ohio’s major cities.

 

Hottinger, R-Newark, previously considered the key vote on the seven-member board, might no longer be the decisive opinion Monday when the board considers a $25 million request to study a rail connection between Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati.

 

“As of right now, there’s no way I can support it because there’s too many unanswered questions,” Hottinger said. “Why rush to spend this $25 million? Show us your vision and costs associated with that.”

 

FULL ARTICLE: http://www.newarkadvocate.com/article/20100414/UPDATES01/100414023

Hopefully the $25m will answer all his questions. Hopefully, then, he won't be bitter that it took $25m to answer them.

 

I don't know where he expects the answers to come from, otherwise, if he doesn't already have them.

All of these arguments about personal choices are not intended to convince any one person that they are wrong.  We all understand that some people love to drive by themselves listening to satellite radio, and others like to drink huge amounts of alcohol and pass out without the fear of a DUI or being killed (I am among them).

 

The point of the arguments are to convince one person in the government chain of "decision making" (that's a term I'd use loosely), that they should maybe put aside their own biases and allow some of us to be able to travel by train.  DanB and others with similar feelings don't need to be among them.  They just need to be convinced that there are enough of us that want to use it, and that it's efficient for the government to provide this service for us.

I did provide counter examples. You spent all the time on the train while others worked, then flew, then had a nice meal as you put it. I personally would be going nuts on a train all that time. I was just pointing out what seems to you to be an ideal 24 hour period would not be for me, and I bet I have traveled on business much more than you.

 

I sincerely doubt that. However, my point is that it appears that you have not made such a trip as I described on a train. Fine. that is your preference. But you are hardly in a position to say what you would do since you haven't done it.

 

In fact, your language suggests a startling inconsistency. Ever been to Asia or Australia (I have). How many hours did you spend on a plane (more than I spent on the train, for sure). Now, on that flight, could you move from car to car? Could you bring your own wine and cheese? Could you spread out as much as you wanted? Did you go nuts? Or have you never traveled that far?

 

Civic, I would expect someone in your position as moderator to be more responsible and less insulting. Am I not allowed to express an opinion on this board?

 

Sure. But KJP asked for experiences which could help to garner support for 3C. I could have pointed to the period where I worked in the UK, lived in Reading and took the train to London and never needed a car, except when driving to Portmeirion for the weekend. Or when l lived in Rumson and commuted to NYC everyday, rather than spend my time crawling along the Garden State Parkway.

 

I both cases I had a choice and had experienced both modes of travel. I would knock one until I tried it.

 

All of these arguments about personal choices are not intended to convince any one person that they are wrong. We all understand that some people love to drive by themselves listening to satellite radio, and others like to drink huge amounts of alcohol and pass out without the fear of a DUI or being killed (I am among them).

 

The point of the arguments are to convince one person in the government chain of "decision making" (that's a term I'd use loosely), that they should maybe put aside their own biases and allow some of us to be able to travel by train. DanB and others with similar feelings don't need to be among them. They just need to be convinced that there are enough of us that want to use it, and that it's efficient for the government to provide this service for us.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. It also highlights an important point: in order to "prove" the train is worthwhile, it may be necessary to convince doubters that a critical mass of trips would need to be preferred by travelers as train trips. If someone is convinced that Ohio is special, and other states' experiences are not useful as predictors for Ohio, this task is essentially impossible.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. It also highlights an important point: in order to "prove" the train is worthwhile, it may be necessary to convince doubters that a critical mass of trips would need to be preferred by travelers as train trips.

 

That is an important point and one which needs to be emphasized when referring to the 3C "Quick Start". The "Quick Start" is not the intended finished product (true HSR). It is, in essence, an attempt to get something practical, up and running quickly, so that Ohioans who have been without passenger rail service through the 3Cs can get a better feel for what is possible. Those journalists and legislators who complain that what is being proposed for $400 million is some kind of "bait and switch" are misinformed or dishonest.

 

If someone is convinced that Ohio is special, and other states' experiences are not useful as predictors for Ohio, this task is essentially impossible.

 

That, in fact, appears to be the underlying assumption of many of the criticisms of 3C, namely, that the experience of other states is irrelevant to Ohio. This may, in fact, be true, but we'll never know until we try.

 

If someone is convinced that Ohio is special, and other states' experiences are not useful as predictors for Ohio, this task is essentially impossible.

 

That, in fact, appears to be the underlying assumption of many of the criticisms of 3C, namely, that the experience of other states is irrelevant to Ohio. This may, in fact, be true, but we'll never know until we try.

 

 

It may be helpful for rail supporters to identify successful lines in other states which they believe to be sufficiently analogous to 3C. Key factors would include cost, speed, distance, and ease of getting to and from the train station from primary points of arrival and departure. Explain why they are analogous and explicitly challenge opponents to explain why they are not.

If someone is convinced that Ohio is special, and other states' experiences are not useful as predictors for Ohio, this task is essentially impossible.

That, in fact, appears to be the underlying assumption of many of the criticisms of 3C, namely, that the experience of other states is irrelevant to Ohio. This may, in fact, be true, but we'll never know until we try.

It may be helpful for rail supporters to identify successful lines in other states which they believe to be sufficiently analogous to 3C. Key factors would include cost, speed, distance, and ease of getting to and from the train station from primary points of arrival and departure. Explain why they are analogous and explicitly challenge opponents to explain why they are not.

They'd throw out that there's some intangible "cultural" difference, which is neither legitimate nor provable, but also not really possible to refute either.  It's that fundamental attribution error in transportation choice issue again, expanded to the level of rhetoric.   

They'd throw out that there's some intangible "cultural" difference, which is neither legitimate nor provable, but also not really possible to refute either. It's that fundamental attribution error in transportation choice issue again, expanded to the level of rhetoric.

So you call that fact to the fore, and invite people without a strong bias to make their own decision as to whether or not they buy it. Anyone with a bias against rail is going to always have some argument, however petty, to justify their position. Those aren't the people proponents should be focusing on persuading, though.

I did provide counter examples. You spent all the time on the train while others worked, then flew, then had a nice meal as you put it.

 

Actually, I re-read this and then realized that you didn't really read what I posted.

 

For each 24-day of travel from Pittsburgh to Charleston, I put in a full-day's work (billable hours), while I was travelling.

 

For each 5-hour flight from Pittsburgh to Charleston, my colleagues lost a day of work between the time it took to get to/from the airport, the relatively short segments of each flight (there are no direct flights), the relatively short layover, etc.

 

That was my point.

 

 

I'd like to address KJP's request for uses of the 3C train. 

 

  I do a lot of IT contracting.  There are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people in IT that may work off site or need to travel to other cities.  There are many opportunities sometimes in other cities in Ohio to get a job than the local job market.  I would likely be able to take a long term contract or maybe even a full time position in Dayton for example, or Columbus, if there were a train that I could take on Fridays back to the Cleveland area. 

 

The point is to give people some choice.  You can't fly from Cleveland to Dayton or Columbus unless in a private plane(Without spending an arm and a leg..).  Its really too much of a strain to work long term some place when you don't live locally.  Driving I-71 back and forth is a royal pain.  A train would allow more people to accept full time jobs and high paying contract jobs in Ohio outside their local job markets.

I'd like to address KJP's request for uses of the 3C train. 

 

  I do a lot of IT contracting.  There are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people in IT that may work off site or need to travel to other cities.  There are many opportunities sometimes in other cities in Ohio to get a job than the local job market.  I would likely be able to take a long term contract or maybe even a full time position in Dayton for example, or Columbus, if there were a train that I could take on Fridays back to the Cleveland area. 

 

The point is to give people some choice.  You can't fly from Cleveland to Dayton or Columbus unless in a private plane.  Its really too much of a strain to work long term some place when you don't live locally.  Driving I-71 back and forth is a royal pain.  A train would allow more people to accept full time jobs and high paying contract jobs in Ohio outside their local job markets.

Excuse me?  Please explain that.  I just flew from LGA-CLE-CMH-CLE-LGA  I was on Continental.  In addition, Continental flys between CLE & DAY.

So you call that fact to the fore, and invite people without a strong bias to make their own decision as to whether or not they buy it.

 

The fundamental attribution error is not so much a fact as it is a part of human nature. I do what I do because I have a choice while you do something different because of who you are.

 

The problem is that there are no qualifications to be a politician except citizenship.

 

A similar issue is happening in Wisconsin, except that the minority party hasn't put a "check with me" restriction on the spending of federal funds in their state as has happened in Ohio.....

 

Plain Talk: Anti-train zealots lack vision

Dave Zweifel | Cap Times editor emeritus | Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010

 

I used to think that Oregon Republican Brett Davis was one of the few Wisconsin legislators with a modicum of common sense. Now I’m not so sure.

 

Davis, who is running for lieutenant governor, has decided to take the lead on an ill-advised crusade to stop the approved plans to expand passenger rail in Wisconsin, in effect waving bye-bye to more than $817 million in federal funds. Those funds will be spent here to build an infrastructure that will bring benefits to the state, its two largest cities and the growing corridor between them for decades to come.

 

But, as is the case with too many of our politicians these days, Davis can’t bring himself to think beyond the present. It’s a wonder he and his compatriots didn’t attempt to outlaw the Internet— or, perhaps they did, judging by the state’s dismal record in computerizing everything from payrolls to billing procedures.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/dave_zweifel/article_7624da13-c7c9-5710-bb49-7f015cd639d1.html

I'd like to address KJP's request for uses of the 3C train. 

 

  I do a lot of IT contracting.  There are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people in IT that may work off site or need to travel to other cities.  There are many opportunities sometimes in other cities in Ohio to get a job than the local job market.  I would likely be able to take a long term contract or maybe even a full time position in Dayton for example, or Columbus, if there were a train that I could take on Fridays back to the Cleveland area. 

 

The point is to give people some choice.  You can't fly from Cleveland to Dayton or Columbus unless in a private plane.  Its really too much of a strain to work long term some place when you don't live locally.  Driving I-71 back and forth is a royal pain.  A train would allow more people to accept full time jobs and high paying contract jobs in Ohio outside their local job markets.

Excuse me?  Please explain that.  I just flew from LGA-CLE-CMH-CLE-LGA  I was on Continental.  In addition, Continental flys between CLE & DAY.

 

Sorry,  I didn't check with that airline before I made that bold statement.  Doing a quick search on flights within two weeks of going to Dayton from Cleveland its over $500 on Orbitz.  Otherwise outside of 2 weeks its $340 round trip.  I would guess most people if they are making drive vs fly vs train plans are making decisions within a 2 week window. 

 

We can make the same type of statement here as the car vs train people, although I'm sure 2cents will find something in error in my calculations.  It takes me about 3-3.5hrs to drive to Dayton.  If I'm flying to Dayton it would also take about 3.5hrs.  It takes me over a half hour to get to the Cle airport.  One needs to arrive an hour ahead of the flight.  It takes probably 45 minutes of being on the plane to get there. Get another half hour to get luggage if needed and rental car.  Drive a half hour to Dayton.

 

I would think it would be cheaper and more convenient to go to a local airfield and set up a flight than to go through Continental.

And you really didn't read what I posted.

 

Sure I did. The total amount of daylight time ON THE TRAIN is nine hours. 5 from Pittsburgh to DC and 4 from DC assuming that you retire at midnight.

 

According to you, you'd be "going nuts", but 13.5 hours in plane from Cleveland to Tokyo is a walk in the park for you? How do you "stop and get out" when you want?

 

All I said was that this may work for you, but not for everyone.

 

I'm not saying that it would be for everyone but you haven't done it and I have. Moreover, that really isn't the point. The point is that since all taxpayers are subsidizing all forms of transportation, shouldn't we have some choices. By some estimates, 60% of the US population will never get on an airplane (by some estimates, this is even higher).

 

Nobody is going to dig up roadways if passenger rail succeeds on a national level (it has already succeeded on a regional level and we're still widening highways).

 

The fact that YOU wouldn't do it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.

 

When I travel to Japan, guess what?  I take the trains.

 

No kidding. Why, praytell, if what you really like is being behind the wheel? As you said, you "love to drive...especially alone".

 

Could it be that you are a poster child for the fundamental attribution error.

 

 

 

 

There is no rational  objection to this project on the merits.  If all it did was improve the freight corridor using federal funds it would be worth it.  The passenger aspect is merely a bonus.  The basis of the objections have an alternate motive.