My point about going nuts on your train for 24 hours is the fact that I like turtles.

 

What do your preferences have to do with the topic at hand, unless you are trying to say your preference somehow discredits seanmcl's?

Is there any way to quantify the equivalent subsidy to $400 million worth of highway building projects?  I don't know if that's really possible since most of those costs are externalized into things like noise, pollution, extra driving, gas, traffic jams, etc.  What about things like plowing/salting, grass mowing, lighting (electricity), or police patrols?  A component of that is maintenance, but how do you really compare maintenance on a railroad which includes rolling stock to a highway whose "rolling stock" is owned and maintained by the users? 

Well, Sean, i think you just figured it out yourself!  In Japan, your 600 mile trip wouldn't take 24 hours on a train!!

 

No kidding, Dan. Problem is, Japan started with conventional rail, just like most everyone else. The evolution from concept to implementation took almost 30 years and construction is still ongoing. So your point, related to 3C is what? If we can't start at 110+ mph speeds we shouldn't even try? Even Japan didn't do that (and they thought of the bullet train in the 1930s).

 

My point about going nuts on your train for 24 hours is the fact that I know I could get there faster using other means of transportation.

 

As has been mentioned numerous times in this, and other, threads, the time it takes to make the trip is not the primary consideration of most people when choosing the mode of transportation. I choose to drive to the shore because with a three year old and a dog, there aren't many other options. Flying would be faster, but that isn't the issue. Most preferable would be a train since I've done enough sitting at the gate with air travel to have had another life.

 

I don't have that same option flying to Japan.  Business Class is quite fine, thank you.

 

Ah, yes, you don't have the option. Funny, that, and a good point.

 

Neither do many of us who would prefer something less expensive than, flying from  Cleveland to Columbus, something that doesn't require us to divert our attention from more productive or lucrative efforts, as driving does, and allows a comfortable space to work unlike bus travel.

 

And it appears that there is a contented segment of our population that intends to deny us these options while requiring our tax dollars to pay for theirs.

 

Doesn't really seem fair, does it?

 

^Real cute.

 

Sean gave an opinion that basically said his mode of transportation was a better choice than someone elses. I countered with my opinion that is mode is not for everyone.

 

Had he just shared his experience without the editorial about how better prepared he was than his coworkers, there would have been nothing to say.

 

What I thought he said was that his choice worked better for him than the alternative did for his coworkers. Not that his choice was inherently better, just that it worked better for him in this circumstance.

 

Oh, and I thought it was cute too, LOL.

I'd like to address KJP's request for uses of the 3C train. 

 

  I do a lot of IT contracting.  There are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people in IT that may work off site or need to travel to other cities.  There are many opportunities sometimes in other cities in Ohio to get a job than the local job market.  I would likely be able to take a long term contract or maybe even a full time position in Dayton for example, or Columbus, if there were a train that I could take on Fridays back to the Cleveland area. 

 

The point is to give people some choice.  You can't fly from Cleveland to Dayton or Columbus unless in a private plane.  Its really too much of a strain to work long term some place when you don't live locally.  Driving I-71 back and forth is a royal pain.  A train would allow more people to accept full time jobs and high paying contract jobs in Ohio outside their local job markets.

Excuse me?  Please explain that.  I just flew from LGA-CLE-CMH-CLE-LGA  I was on Continental.  In addition, Continental flys between CLE & DAY.

 

Sorry,  I didn't check with that airline before I made that bold statement.  Doing a quick search on flights within two weeks of going to Dayton from Cleveland its over $500 on Orbitz.  Otherwise outside of 2 weeks its $340 round trip.  I would guess most people if they are making drive vs fly vs train plans are making decisions within a 2 week window. 

 

We can make the same type of statement here as the car vs train people, although I'm sure 2cents will find something in error in my calculations.  It takes me about 3-3.5hrs to drive to Dayton.  If I'm flying to Dayton it would also take about 3.5hrs.  It takes me over a half hour to get to the Cle airport.  One needs to arrive an hour ahead of the flight.  It takes probably 45 minutes of being on the plane to get there. Get another half hour to get luggage if needed and rental car.  Drive a half hour to Dayton.

 

I would think it would be cheaper and more convenient to go to a local airfield and set up a flight than to go through Continental.

 

As a person who is PRO RAIL (light rail, subway, commutter) in NE Ohio, I'm not trying to pick apart your responses, just point out an error.

 

For each person, you can't say those time will be accurate.  I never get to the airport an hour before unless an international flight. 

Sean gave an opinion that basically said his mode of transportation was a better choice than someone elses.  I countered with my opinion that is mode is not for everyone.

 

I said no such thing. I said that when I compared what I was able to get done in, essentially, the same amount of time as my colleagues, who chose a different mode of transportation, I was able to do more based upon their assertions. I did not generalize that to you or anyone else, though you took it that way. I was responding to a request for experiences. Now you are not claiming that I didn't have that experience, are you?

 

Had he just shared his experience without the editorial about how better prepared he was than his coworkers, there would have been nothing to say.

 

Show me where I said "better prepared". I said that I was relaxed and prepared and I noted that my colleagues had reported that they had not gotten work done on the day of travel whereas I had put in a full day. That was what they reported to me, not my opinion.

 

None of this had anything to do with you so why are you wound up about it?

 

 

 

So in their day of traveling, they got nothing done while I put in a day's work. And by the end of the day, I was relaxed and prepared.

 

Your comments make the suggestion that they were not relaxed and prepared, and anyone who disagrees with you, misses the point.

 

Au contraire, mon ami. I merely reported what they had told me. I gave you a button and you sewed a vest on it.

 

You use this experience as a justification for a train in Ohio, that's why I'm interested.

 

I was meaning to show how time could be spent on a train doing something else besides twiddling your fingers and wishing that you were high, er, I mean flying the friendly skies.

 

I could, just as easily, have recounted my experiences with the New Jersey Transit where 20+ trains/day made travel from Red Bank to New York a pleasure. Sure, I could have taken the Garden State. And under the best of all possible circumstances, I might have reduced the parking to parking times from 90 minutes to 50 minutes. But this rarely happened. And while I sat in one of those packed NJT trains whizzing by the stalled traffic on the Garden State Parkway, I realized that there was room for both technologies and that those people sitting in that traffic got something as meaningful to them as the time that I got to spend with my wife because I could do other things on the train like catch up on my work or read the New York Times.

 

A one month unlimited pass is $249; a little more than $12 day. Try to drive to NYC and park for anywhere near that price. The distance to midtown Manhattan is 45 miles.  That makes the average train speed about 30 mph and the trains are packed! So, for at least some people, speed is not the only consideration.

 

Most everyone on these trains wore suits, at least when I traveled and most were not retired.

 

There are calls to restore the Lackawanna Line from Scranton to NYC (120 miles). Why? Because there are people who commute to NYC from Scranton and currently the line only goes as far as Hackettstown (7 trains/day in each direction), which is about 60 miles away. In South New Jersey, the commuter rail runs as far South as Bay Head (75 miles).

 

Fine if you want to drive. I wish you the best on the Garden State during rush hour as I sip my martini in the train whizzing by.

 

I think Strickland is doing the right thing by pushing forward on the $25M for the study.  But not to be Debby Downer here, do people really think a positive study of any kind can sway these zealot republicans on the Controlling board who are from hick towns and/or right wing periphery burbs like Ashland and Newark and won't be accountable to anyone.  Someone, tell me I'm wrong... make me feel better about this because, right now, these fools (yes, if you make up your mind while refusing to listen to any amount of logic or reason: you're a fool) are poised to torpedo this thing and go back to their home districts to a hero's welcome (yeah, we're really backwards here in Ohio).  This is more about Republican party discipline than anything.

^

Id like to hear more about that book.  You can PM me.

 

###

 

  But not to be Debby Downer here, do people really think a positive study of any kind can sway these zealot republicans on the Controlling board

 

It's all political now.  The board wont support the capital investment no matter what the study says.  And Strickland can use their no vote, even after the study, to politicallybitch-slap the GOP since public opnion does show support for 3-C.

 

 

...Jake, keep the personal comments about particular forumers off of this board. It's not approperiate to call someone you don't like out with personal snips about their financial situation, true or not.

  "But how do you really compare maintenance on a railroad which includes rolling stock to a highway whose "rolling stock" is owned and maintained by the users?"

 

  I think this was the best comment from the last several pages.

 

  The typical American pays 20% of his income on transportation. However, paying for a train for someone else is viewed as a form of welfare by a lot of folks.

   

  "But how do you really compare maintenance on a railroad which includes rolling stock to a highway whose "rolling stock" is owned and maintained by the users?"

 

  I think this was the best comment from the last several pages.

 

  The typical American pays 20% of his income on transportation. However, paying for a train for someone else is viewed as a form of welfare by a lot of folks.

   

 

I'm sure this has been answered in this thread, but what percentage of ODOT's highway funds come from the gas tax and registration fees?

"But how do you really compare maintenance on a railroad which includes rolling stock to a highway whose "rolling stock" is owned and maintained by the users?"

 

  I think this was the best comment from the last several pages.

 

  The typical American pays 20% of his income on transportation. However, paying for a train for someone else is viewed as a form of welfare by a lot of folks.

 

 

I'm sure this has been answered in this thread, but what percentage of ODOT's highway funds come from the gas tax and registration fees?

If you only include that, though, you're counting out the expense people do spend on their cars. But at the same time, a dollar spent on your own car is not the same as a dollar spent on a railroad's rolling stock.

 

The comparison is subjective, but real nonetheless.

But not to be Debby Downer here, do people really think a positive study of any kind can sway these zealot republicans on the Controlling board who are from hick towns and/or right wing periphery burbs like Ashland and Newark and won't be accountable to anyone.

 

It's not a study. In any federally funded project of this kind, you conduct two phases of assessments and design. The first phase was a Tier I environmental assessment and preliminary engineering that was conducted for the Oct. 2, 2009 federal funding application. Now that the funding was awarded, the state has to conduct the Tier II environmental assessment and final engineering. This phase two is what ODOT is seeking approval for. And getting answers and information for questions that have been asked is never a bad thing (especially when someone else is giving you the money to do it) -- unless it is an election.

 

 

I'm sure this has been answered in this thread, but what percentage of ODOT's highway funds come from the gas tax and registration fees?

 

Approximately half of all highway expenses are covered by user fees, according to SubsidyScope (http://subsidyscope.com/transportation/highways/funding/). This was backed up by another report done by the Texas Department of Transportation (http://www.gcbl.org/system/files/Texas+DOT+-+Do+roads+pay+for+themselves.pdf) While these aren't ODOT documents, the Federal Highway Administration reported in 2007 that $1.2 billion of highway funding in Ohio came from non-users (ODOT's budget at the time was about $3 billion).

 

Since 2008, general taxpayers have bailed out the insolvent Federal Highway Trust Fund three times, plus direct stimulus funds to pay for long-stalled projects, totaling $54.5 billion. On a per-capita basis, Ohio probably received about $2 billion of that.

Monday's 3-C study vote might trigger policy dispute

BY TERRICHA BRADLEY • CentralOhio.com •

April 16, 2010

 

COLUMBUS -- Gov. Ted Strickland and the state's

Republican lawmakers are hurtling toward what

looks like their first official collision about whether

to spend federal funds on passenger rail service.

 

The state Controlling Board will vote Monday on

whether to release $25 million -- the first

appropriation from $400 million in federal stimulus

funds -- to study the 3-C Quick Start rail line that

would run through north central Ohio.

 

The results of what at first glance seems a simple

vote from the seven-member board -- about

whether to fund an engineering study of the route

connecting Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati --

could see a partisan clash that might need to be

settled before the study vote can be decided.

 

Full story at: http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20100416/NEWS01/4160305

ODOT Financial Statement (2008 latest available)

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Finance/Annual%20Reports/2008%20Annual%20Statement.pdf

 

ODOT gets 1.057 B of the 28c State Fuel Tax (p4)

Almost nothing of  vehicle registration fees ($1M)

Truck fees and gas use tax ($100M)

 

 

 

ODOT business plan FY 10-11 (required reading for all those that want to comment on transportation policy in Ohio)

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/policy/2010-2011BusinessPlan/Documents/ODOT2010-2011BusinessPlan-WEB.pdf

 

P37 lists revenue (on an aggregate basis) and expenditures.

 

 

 

  "Approximately half of all highway expenses are covered by user fees...,"

 

  I assume that this is just for highways maintained by ODOT. There are also roads and highways maintained by counties, cities, and townships, plus other governments such as the U.S. Forest Service, and there are countless private roads, driveways, parking lots, parking structures and all kinds of other auto-related infrastructure that is maintained by both the public and private sector.

 

  It is estimated that 20% of our economy is devoted to transportation. On a personal level, the typical American spends 20% of his income on transportation. But who really knows, and how would one measure that? If a public high school builds a parking lot, is that counted as "transportation" or "education?" When a home builder buids a driveway, is that counted as "transportation?"

 

  Beginning around the 1950's, public policy shifted away from rail toward automobiles. Today it's starting to shift the other way. The problems that we are struggling with today are not technical, but political. It always comes back to funding.

 

    The big question regarding the 3-C is, "Is is appropriate for government to support the 3-C?" All of the other questions regarding speed, schedules, station location, etc., are just details.

 

   

 

It does not list many highway expenses, including some that were funded by the gas tax but aren't anymore. The largest of which is the Ohio State Highway Patrol which has $300+ million per year budget. Lawmakers put the highway patrol's budget on the general fund so its gas taxes could be used to build more roads. The second largest is state general revenue to pay for bond financing which ranges from $190 million to $200 million per year.

 

Not surprisingly, ODOT's highway operations and maintenance costs for all that new pavement (including those funded by stimulus general tax dollars and highway fund bailouts) will skyrocket rise from $2 billion this year to nearly $2.8 billion in 2017. That's a 29 percent increase!

See: http://www.dot.state.oh.us/policy/2010-2011BusinessPlan/Documents/ODOT2010-2011BusinessPlan-WEB.pdf

 

It's also a big reason why ODOT's major-new construction program faces a $3.5 billion shortfall.

See more details at my posting at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18328.msg476683.html#msg476683

 

I would love to know why those who claim to be fiscal conservatives bash 3C but say nothing about ODOT's unsustainably growing highway operating/maintenance expenses. Perhaps because they are partly to blame by demanding ODOT build more roads by taking the highway patrol off the gas tax and putting it on the backs of the general fund. Despite these demands for ODOT to build more roads, ODOT cannot afford to maintain and operate them in the future.

 

We've shown how to pay for 3C. Lawmakers (many of them self-proclaimed fiscal conservatives) haven't yet shown how to pay for a nearly $800 million increase in highway operating and maintenance costs by 2017.

 

I love double-standards (not really).

In my current financial situation, roughly akin to working full time at eight dollars an hour, my cost of transportation is 40% of my gross income. And I drive a Nissan compact.

 

Anecdotal, but just thought I'd throw it out there.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but if the "cost" for the highway patrol is $300+ million, what are the "revenues" from issuing citations, and where does that money go? 

 

Back to my original question though, if you take a $400 million cost for the 3-C project and a $17 million annual subsidy, that's an outlay of 4.25% of construction cost per year.  Is there an equivalent number for highways?  Maybe it's not possible to do it that way, maybe you'd have to compare cost per mile, or per passenger, I don't know. 

 

We've already established that $17 million is a drop in the bucket compared to ODOT's road budget, but I'd like to have a statistic that shows if we spend $400 million on some road that we taxpayers (or users) have to subsidize it even more than 3-C.  Or maybe an argument could be made that "$17 million per year spent on roadways only gets us [mowing the grass along the interstates, or 10 miles of repaving, or ___ ]  while instead it could give us a whole rail system." 

I have a better metric: If you spend $X on a given transportation project, what is the economic return on investment? What should be counted in that return?

 

We spend too much money on moving more vehicles around without having any idea on what the actual economic benefit of that is. If you recall from your economics 101, there is a diseconomies of scale, when something becomes so large that it is no longer efficient and further expansion creates more costs than benefits.

 

Where are we with our various transportatin systems in that regard?

 

Are they too small achieve economies scale and need expansion to be most efficient, right at the sweet spot of being the right size to yield the maximum benefit, or too large and bloated thereby needing to be scaled back?

 

Post your answers here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4500.0.html

Plans For High-Speed Rail Draws National Attention

Rail Line To Run Between Milwaukee, Madison And Chicago

 

POSTED: 6:31 pm CDT April 15, 2010

UPDATED: 7:09 pm CDT April 15, 2010

 

MILWAUKEE -- Wisconsin's plan to build a high-speed rail line is capturing national attention.

 

Members of the Amtrak board visited The Milwaukee Intermodal Station downtown and learned more about the state's plans to create high speed rail between Chicago and Madison through its Hiawatha line.

 

"If you complete this activity, this expansion, you're going to have record ridership," said Amtrak President and CEO Joseph Boardman.

 

more at: http://www.wisn.com/news/23166488/detail.html

On Monday, the State Controlling Board will consider the following requests by the Ohio Department of Transportation to allow it to develop the final plan for the 3C passenger rail service. Both must be passed on Monday....

 

AGENDA ITEM #75:  DOT0100139-10 -- Transportation requests Controlling Board approval to establish appropriation authority in the amount of $25,000,000.00 in fund 7002, line item 776475, Rail-Federal Rail Administration.

 

AGENDA ITEM #76:  DOT0100140-10 -- Transportation requests Controlling Board approval to waive competitive selection in the amount of $2,000,000.00 for FY10 to contract with CH2M Hill Inc., Columbus, Franklin County, and in the amount of $23,000,000.00 for FY10 to contract with PB Americas Inc., Columbus, Franklin County, to provide environmental studies and detailed design for the 3C passenger rail project.

 

THE MESSAGE: These ODOT requests for 3C rail planning do not commit the state to construct anything. Nor will this expenditure of 100% federal funds hurt the state's budget. If these funds are not used in Ohio, they go back to the Federal Railroad Administration for use on a rail project in another state. There is nothing lost in ODOT getting more and better information which is what the 3C's skeptics have asked for in the first place.

 

Please contact these people on the State Controlling Board by Monday morning to support the above requests:

 

The Web:

http://ecb.ohio.gov/Public/Default.aspx

 

The phone:

(614) 466-5721

 

The e-mail:

* Board President: [email protected]

* Executive Secretary: [email protected]

Senators:

* Sen. John Carey ®: [email protected]

* Sen. David Goodman ®: [email protected]

Sen. Ray Miller (D): [email protected]

Representatives:

Rep. Vernon Sykes (D): [email protected]

Rep. Clayton Luckie (D): [email protected]

* Rep. Jay Hottinger ®: [email protected]

 

* Please focus your efforts on these people!

 

Thank you for helping the cause of bringing quality passenger rail service to Ohio. Please act today!

 

 

"We spend too much money on moving more vehicles..."

 

For the last 50-60 years in this country, transportation planning has been all about moving cars and trucks.  That's unfortunate, because transportation is really about moving people and goods.  Cars and trucks are not the most efficient way to do that in all cases, and it's good to see that SOME people finally understand that, especially Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood. 

We have a winner!

"We spend too much money on moving more vehicles..."

 

For the last 50-60 years in this country, transportation planning has been all about moving cars and trucks.  That's unfortunate, because transportation is really about moving people and goods.  Cars and trucks are not the most efficient way to do that in all cases, and it's good to see that SOME people finally understand that, especially Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood.

 

Depends on how you define efficient. For certain hauls, an automobile is going to be more efficient. For others, rail. And for others, air. A mixture of all three mediums is preferable, but no one mode of transport will always be the most efficient for every option there is.

On Monday, the State Controlling Board will consider the following requests by the Ohio Department of Transportation to allow it to develop the final plan for the 3C passenger rail service. Both must be passed on Monday....

 

AGENDA ITEM #75:  DOT0100139-10 -- Transportation requests Controlling Board approval to establish appropriation authority in the amount of $25,000,000.00 in fund 7002, line item 776475, Rail-Federal Rail Administration.

 

AGENDA ITEM #76:  DOT0100140-10 -- Transportation requests Controlling Board approval to waive competitive selection in the amount of $2,000,000.00 for FY10 to contract with CH2M Hill Inc., Columbus, Franklin County, and in the amount of $23,000,000.00 for FY10 to contract with PB Americas Inc., Columbus, Franklin County, to provide environmental studies and detailed design for the 3C passenger rail project.

 

THE MESSAGE: These ODOT requests for 3C rail planning do not commit the state to construct anything. Nor will this expenditure of 100% federal funds hurt the state's budget. If these funds are not used in Ohio, they go back to the Federal Railroad Administration for use on a rail project in another state. There is nothing lost in ODOT getting more and better information which is what the 3C's skeptics have asked for in the first place.

 

Please contact these people on the State Controlling Board by Monday morning to support the above requests:

 

The Web:

http://ecb.ohio.gov/Public/Default.aspx

 

The phone:

(614) 466-5721

 

The e-mail:

* Board President: [email protected]

* Executive Secretary: [email protected]

Senators:

* Sen. John Carey ®: [email protected]

* Sen. David Goodman ®: [email protected]

Sen. Ray Miller (D): [email protected]

Representatives:

Rep. Vernon Sykes (D): [email protected]

Rep. Clayton Luckie (D): [email protected]

* Rep. Jay Hottinger ®: [email protected]

 

* Please focus your efforts on these people!

 

Thank you for helping the cause of bringing quality passenger rail service to Ohio. Please act today!

 

 

Re: the GOP opposition in Ohio.... a friend of mine in a state (Illinois) that is growing rather than debating passenger rail had this to say...

 

"Of course they’re not going to fund a passenger-train system.  They’re too busy getting Ohio ready for the 20th century."

 

^ You might very well be right. But it will be nice to know there is a choice, and a finer grain of solutions for different needs.

Cars will certainly be a more efficient means of transportation on the 3C corridor for a small family or group for many years to come.

 

That's merely conjecture.  Just because you can't think of ways it would be more efficient doesn't mean you're right.

@DanB, depends on how you define efficient. For what is currently proposed, it is not as time efficient as driving by a long-shot, but how do you quantify the amount of time lost in traffic jams, in hours lost driving (rather than getting sleep, or reading, or using the wifi on the train, et. al.), in money saved (from fuel and wear-and-tear)? For some, the 3C, even in its current iteration, is going to be a money- and time-saver; for others, it's not, and for those, they will simply find an alternative.

Cars will certainly be a more efficient means of transportation on the 3C corridor for a small family or group for many years to come.

 

I'm not sure what is meant by "efficient" in this statement as it could be taken a number of different ways.  In terms of time efficiency, that is a very difficult argument to make because of the wide ranges in "value of time" costs.  Value of time costs can only be obtained through some sort of stated preference survey and then it would depend on working time and non-working time comparisons. 

 

Personally, as a family of four with two young kids, being able to take a train for a staycation to Cincinnati or Cleveland would be more "efficient" for us because of a more flexible schedule and not driving in a car with a 1-year old carries its own value.  Conversely, if our schedule is not as flexible and requires a down-and-back trip, then I agree, car travel would be more efficient and practical.

 

As my engineering professor used to tell me - the appropriate answer is sometimes "It depends."

Wait until you see what it costs to take your family of four on the train to Cleveland. A tankful of gas will seem like nothing.

 

Until a tankful of gas doesn't seem like nothing.

 

Until a tankful of gas doesn't seem like nothing.

 

Compared to the rest of the costs of driving, it does seem like nothing. According to the Federal Highway Administration and Ward's Automotive data, fuel is about 10 percent of the cost of owning and operating a car.

 

But I know many of us aren't ready to embrace car-sharing or using pay-by-the-hour station cars, so we want to know what the variable cost of using a car is. The Victoria Transport Institute has done some thorough research into this, and determined the variable cost averages just over 16 cents per mile. 3C passenger rail fares, while not published, will likely be 8.5-14 cents per mile if other Midwest rail fares are any indication. For some families using 3C, that may seem like a bargain if they want to avoid various stresses associated with driving in a car with their family, especially if there are young children.

 

Anyway, the source of this data is at: http://www.vtpi.org/tca/tca0501.pdf (please also note Table 5.1.5-8 on Page 7 regarding how transportation costs have grown tremendously as a share of household expenses since the 1910s!)

 

Of course, if you want to take ALL the costs of driving into account, check out...

 

Santa Cruz County Regional Transportation Commission (Santa Cruz's version of NOACA, MORPC, MVRPC or OKI) driving cost calculator:

 

http://www.commutesolutions.org/calc.htm

Do people always mostly their mode of transportation based on what's cheapest? I really doubt they do.

 

I suspect there's not much correlation between income, total spending and what or whether one drives or travels by any other mode -- except maybe for leisure air travel.

The original point was the efficiency of a car for family or small group along the 3C corridor in the near future.

 

Define "efficient". Without a definition, the statement is meaningless.

 

I'm sure you knew that. 

 

Why would you assume that someone else "knows" what is, at this point, a matter of conjecture.

 

The total cost of car ownership is irrelevant to that discussion until better transportation options permit people to get rid of their cars.

 

The total cost of car ownership is fluid and depends upon the usage. I have an F-150 that is 10 years old and has less than 25,000 miles on it. I drive it only when I need to pick up building materials from Home Depot, 3 miles away. When I, once, had to drive it to Vermont it cost me a small fortune.

 

The family or small group I speak of will still need to own a car, will still need to buy insurance, will still have all the costs of ownership, when they leave that car at home to take that 39 mph trip to Cleveland.

 

Perhaps. But there are other costs that they won't have. Your arguments fail to consider this point. When I lived in Rumson, I had a car. Taking the train to New York was preferable for many reasons, including the relative cost to drive.

 

I need to have life insurance. That doesn't mean that I want to use it.

 

From today's editorial page in the Columbus Dispatch:

 

Trains are a better deal than highways

Saturday,  April 17, 2010 2:51 AM

By Ken Prendergast

 

It's unfortunate to see fiscal conservatives resort to a double standard in claiming to protect Ohio's taxpayers from the imminent doom of the Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati (3C) passenger-rail project.

 

The hyperbolic Sen. Jon Husted, R-Kettering, even said he feared the 3C trains' $17 million annual operating cost would grow into "the biggest money pit in state history." Perhaps he forgot that the immensely larger, debt-ridden and justifiably celebrated Ohio canal system threatened to be just that to our state as a fledgling.

 

Or perhaps he mistook Ohio's ballooning highway subsidy for the 3C trains' operating bill. On behalf of Ohioans who seek 0.005 percent of the state's transportation budget for First World travel options other than highways, I ask for fairer treatment.

 

Full op-ed at: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/04/17/trains-are-a-better-deal-than-highways.html?sid=101

The original point was the efficiency of a car for family or small group along the 3C corridor in the near future.  I'm sure you knew that. 

 

Why not take a longer view?

It's not 39 mph, Dan. It will start at 45, which is a better starting point than most new state-supported services begun in the past 30 years.....

http://members.cox.net/ohiohsr/States%20corridor%20performance%20comparison.pdf

 

Some of the intermediate sections (which is where most of the ridership is likely to be) offer average speeds of 50 mph or higher.....

http://members.cox.net/corridorscampaign/Talking%20points-travelers-AllAboardOhio.pdf

 

Anyone is welcome to print and distribute these documents.

I'd imagine that a cheaper ticket for children could be worked into the system. I could also see a train as wonderful for folks with smaller children who can run around and use the restroom at will rather than having to stop regularly to deal with those issues. Now I'd imagine some train riders might find it 'challenging' to have a bunch of kids running around, but that is just one reason why a family might choose to ride a train rather than take the car.

From today's editorial page in the Columbus Dispatch:

 

[...]On behalf of Ohioans who seek 0.005 percent of the state's transportation budget for First World travel options other than highways, I ask for fairer treatment.[...]

 

I thought it was .5%?

 

Otherwise, a nice article.

It's not 39 mph, Dan. It will start at 45, which is a better starting point than most new state-supported services begun in the past 30

 

As I noted, before, even if it were 39 mph, the suggestion that people wouldn't ride it is not supported by the experience of other US intercity passenger rail lines. With stops, the average speed of the North Jersey Coast Line is about 32 mph yet there are 40 trains a day in each direction. Nearly all of the people riding the trains own automobiles. Red Bank to New York Penn Station is just under 90 minutes. Under the best of circumstances, to drive that would be a little over an hour you still have to park.

 

I mention this only because if an advocate says 45 and an opponent responds that this is unreasonably optimistic and it is more likely going to be the lower number that doesn't change the fact that people will ride the trains at lower speeds in numbers sufficient to create demand for additional service.

 

I thought it was .5%?

 

Otherwise, a nice article.

 

Thanks, and yes it is one-half of one percent. I put 0.005 in the original op-ed piece. The Dispatch writers mistakenly added the percent afterwards.

 

And I also don't want to make a big deal about speeds as it is ultimately an irrelevant issue for a start-up rail service that can draw many leisure riders and some business travelers right off the bat. As it is developed, it will attract more of both riders who are increasingly time-conscious.

Wait until you see what it costs to take your family of four on the train to Cleveland.  A tankful of gas will seem like nothing.

 

If the 3C is priced like all other Amtrak trains, the 1 year old will ride free and the other child will either ride free or half price depending on their age.

Ohio Controlling Board should release $25 million in federal rail money for preliminary 3C passenger rail planning:

 

By The Plain Dealer Editorial Board

April 19, 2010, 4:40AM

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation wants the state Controlling Board to release $25 million today for design, engineering and environmental planning for a proposed passenger rail link among Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati.

 

It must do so without delay and avoid the threatened partisan logjam.

 

Yes, there are legitimate questions about the plan as currently envisioned. But it's precisely because of those questions that the board needs to release this first sliver of the $400 million federal officials awarded Ohio to re-establish rail service among the state's major cities.

 

Full Plain Delaer editorial at: http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/04/ohio_controlling_board_should.html

 

I was thinking about the kind of political mindset that would cause the Republicans in the legislature to want to block even the no-strings-attached $25 million study when it would help to answer the very questions that they are asking and I started listening to a Christine Lavin album that my wife bought me for Valentine's Day when I got to a song called Mencken's Pen which includes the following quotes from HL Mencken (which could apply to any politician, not just the President):

 

"As democracy is perfected, the office [of the president] represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people.  We move toward a lofty ideal.  On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

 

"If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner."

 

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."

 

This will be back open when folks cool off for a bit and this thread gets cleaned.

State controlling board approves first step in 3C rail project in contentious party-line vote

By Aaron Marshall, The Plain Dealer, April 19, 2010

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- By a 4-3 partisan vote, majority-party Democrats on the state controlling board approved the release of $25 million in federal funding for the 3C passenger rail project over heated objections from Republican lawmakers.

 

The panel's vote means that studies of engineering and environmental issues can proceed for the $400 million passenger rail project designed to link Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati with trains reaching speeds up to 79 miles per hour. The $400 million is federal rail money included in an $8 billion national pot for high speed and intercity rail that was part of the stimulus package.

Dan, did you ignore what I told you before?  Small children ride free, and others (up to 15) ride half price.  So for most families, it would be considerably less than your stated amount.

Breaking News (email):

 

3C planning OK passes 4-3

 

All,

 

Just in case you hadn't heard, the two 3C Passenger Rail items on the State Controlling Board's agenda today each passed by 4-3 party line votes. They allow the $25 million in federal rail funds to be tapped to conduct the planning work, including final engineering and environmental assessments, plus an economic analysis that will answer questions posed by legislators regardless of their party affiliation. All Aboard Ohio is not concerned with who conducts the planning work as long as it conducted, and it provides honest answers.

 

All Aboard Ohio has also heard rumors that the opposition who seeks to protect Ohio's transportation status quo will file a lawsuit to invalidate today's vote. We are confident that this vote will withstand any legal challenge. Ohio's transportation status quo has helped bring us a dismal economic and environmental record extending back several decades in which one of our chief exports is college graduates and one of our largest imports is fossil fuels. Ohio's introductory 3C Corridor passenger rail service complemented by a dedicated state fund for public transit will be important first steps in a long journey toward providing Ohioans of all ages and all incomes with the option of enjoying a low-mileage lifestyle -- for a change.

 

_____________________

 

Ken Prendergast

Executive Director

All Aboard Ohio

12029 Clifton Blvd., Suite 505

Cleveland, OH 44107

(216) 288-4883

[email protected]

www.allaboardohio.org <http://www.allaboardohio.org>