Perhaps we should conduct a study to see if the prior studies were effective on the studies of the studies for rail in Ohio.

^

So DanB says this plan fails because it's not high-speed rail. Why am I thinking that if we were building high-speed from the get-go - like Florida is building between Tampa and Orlando -- DanB would be complaining that the cost is way too high? He be insisting that we should be starting with a more conservative rail plan "to see if it works" before spending all that money.

 

This reminds me of the clowns who write-in to the Enquirer about the Cincinnati Streetcar, wanting the city to paint a stripe down the street and run gussied-up truck-trolleys on them "to see if it works" before installing rails and stringing overhead wires.

 

Remember, with rail opponents, whatever the plan is, they will always want a different plan. Nothing will ever satisfy them.

 

I resent your calling me a clown.  Funny what some people can get away with insult wise.  I have said all along, both on this thread and the streetcar thread, that not spending enough would be the downfall.  If we had transportation like the eastcoast or Europe, there is no doubt it would be successful.  But we don't, and right now we don't have the need for it.  It is still too easy to drive.

Or death by endless study, which has worked to save Ohio from progress for more than 30 years in Ohio.

 

I'm not looking for any studies.  We have enough examples of trains to commit to the project.  Just do it correctly.

I'm not asking for more studies either... I'm lamenting that so many studies have been done, and keep getting cited as truth, when none of them have examined the market with any kind of depth.  If we're going to pay for studies, which we have and will, that aspect shouldn't get skipped.  When I ask about jumping to higher speeds initially, I'm told more studies are needed.  Fear not... they're scheduled, or they will be soon!  But as soon as I mention studying something, something that is normally studied before a project of this magnitude proceeds, suddenly studies are a horrible idea.  It's death by studies!  What about all the studies that have been thrown in people's faces whenever they question anything about this?  Those ones are good ones, I take it.

 

We need to tweak the approach and make it more broadly palatable.  It has all the marks of having been develped in an echo chamber.  ODOT/ORDC could answer some of these marketing questions themselves, if they cared to.  What scares me is they don't seem to care... and I keep getting this sense that such "businesslike" concerns are inappropriately right-wing and therefore inimical to the project.  Either you're a rail insider or you have nothing to add.  Either you assent to every single aspect of this plan or you lack vision.  And there I'm describing the reaction charitably.

If we had transportation like the eastcoast or Europe, there is no doubt it would be successful. But we don't, and right now we don't have the need for it. It is still too easy to drive.

Well, I believe that there is a need/demand for train service between the 3C's. Even if there wasn't a large demand for it right now, gas prices are going to continue to rise and driving is going to continue to become more expensive. I think that waiting until we have no other choice but to build a rail service is extremely risky and short sighted. It is better to prepare for the future, satisfying today's demands and allowing for easier expansion when that demand increases.

There is a huge demand for it, but a few of us who like to pretend everyone has a car and can use it whenever/wherever they want. I sure hope you never get old, disabled, poor, have to share a car with other wage earners or lose your driver's license. There are more than 3 million people living in the 3C Corridor who face this situation, so...

 

HALF OF THE POPULATION IN THE 3C CORRIDOR HAS LIMITED OR NO USE OF CARS.

 

If you remember one thing today, let it be that. And if you think Greyhound is a reasonable alternative to driving, it's obvious you haven't ridden it in the last 5-10 years.

^ What is considered to be "in the 3C corridor"?

Within 10-15 miles of proposed train stations.

Does that include children, as well?

 

What about a couple with one car? Is one or both of them counted?

Based on the proposed schedule, it won't be possible to use it for a ballgame, or a one day trip across state.  It won't be affordable for a family to travel to see relatives, who do you think will ride it?

 

So what's wrong with staying overnight so you can see a ballgame?....many people do and an overnight stay pumps over $300 per visit into the local according to the Ohio Hotel and Lodging Association.  Also, most sports fans coming in from out of town are going to do so on weekends for Friday, Saturday or Sunday games, which also means more overnight stays in local hotels.

 

A one-day trip for other purposes CAN be done, even under the current proposed 3C schedule.  An ideal schedule that is all things to all people....no or at least not yet.... but that's the whole point of a start-up DanB.  A start-up schedule builds start-up demand for more and better service.

 

Commuting?  Even the now successful California Capitol Corridors started out with a limited schedule and still manegd to attract over 20% commuter ridership.  With more trains and better running times, they now count almost 60% of their riders as daily pass-holders.  North Carolina, Maine, Illinois, Wisconsin and other states have all had similar experience.

 

BTW:  If you're so certain that no one will ride these trains, how does that explain over 125 people waiting at Toledo Union Station for Amtrak's Capital Limited at midnight last night.  I was there to see it.  And this is for train service that happens in the middle of the night!

 

Based on the proposed schedule, it won't be possible to use it for a ballgame, or a one day trip across state.  It won't be affordable for a family to travel to see relatives, who do you think will ride it?

 

So what's wrong with staying overnight so you can see a ballgame?....many people do and an overnight stay pumps over $300 per visit into the local according to the Ohio Hotel and Lodging Association.  Also, most sports fans coming in from out of town are going to do so on weekends for Friday, Saturday or Sunday games, which also means more overnight stays in local hotels.

 

 

Perhaps they don't have $300.  Going to a game is pricey enough as it is.  This could be a great way to introduce people to the rail service, almost a built-in constituency, but I think it's pretty important not to force them to stay overnight.  We can't ask people to stay in hotels for a 3-hour midday event that's within easy driving distance.  It literally multiplies the cost of their trip.     

 

The service needs to be planned around likely uses, and I think sporting events are very likely uses.  Why is it so necessary to make people not just accept the rail investment, a big enough fight as it is, but also to radically change their plans and expectations?  Why can't the system come to them a little bit?  It can't be that difficult to arrange round trips to and from Columbus for football games.  That is something ORDC simply needs to get done, no excuses.  The schedule Dan's talking about probably should not have been released, just like the disputed 39 mph number.

 

Is it possible to just run extra trains on game days, as sort of a cross-promotional event?  Maybe run a late evening train on game days or just during certain times of the year when day trips are more prevalent.

Indeed, there's no reason there couldn't be special trains that cater to big sporting events. 

THEN HOW WILL THEY GET TO THE TRAINS, AND WHERE WILL THEY GO ONCE THEY GET THERE?

 

No, I do not think Greyhound is a reasonable alternative to driving.  I took many Greyhound trips to Cincinnati when I was in college.  But, that's not to say that a WELL RUN bus business within Ohio couldn't succeed!  You could have express service, and local service, and make it easy to get many people around the state.  We could do this while we wait for adequate train service!!

 

Great idea Ken!

Dan, I wasn't calling you a clown, and I'm sorry that you took it that way.

 

I was referring to "the clowns who write-in to the Enquirer about the Cincinnati Streetcar, wanting the city to paint a stripe down the street and run gussied-up truck-trolleys on them "to see if it works" before installing rails and stringing overhead wires."

 

Nevertheless, your comments on this forum convinces me that you are simply opposed to rail in whatever form that's possible to build in Cincinnati and in Ohio and that no evidence to the contrary will ever change your mind.

 

  There IS a reason.

 

    In Cincinnati, Queen City Metro used to run a special service to Reds and Bengals games. It seems like the appropriate thing to do - to give the customers what they want.

 

  But Queen City Metro is heavily subsidized by the earnings tax, also known as the city income tax, which of course is controlled by the City of Cincinnati. The theory is that if non-city residents are paying city earnings tax, then it is appropriate for the city to provide transportation to jobs in the city.

 

    Somehow, someone got the idea that it was not appropriate to provide transportation to a private industry that will gain a profit from the riders. Is that a legitimate argument? In any case, the decision was made to provide service to games at cost, without a subsidy.

 

    So, the fare to ride Queen City Metro to a Bengals game instantly shot up to about $7.00. (As an aside, this is what a fare would cost for the bus service to break even.) Naturally, the service wasn't very popular, and ridership was so low that the service was discontinued.

 

    As someone interested in rail operations, this seems like silly bickering. However, to others it is an important issue.

 

    Ideally, yes, it should be possible to run special trains to events. But politics isn't always ideal.

 

    This is what I mean when I say that publicly funded services are influenced by politics rather than business decisions.

 

    In the old days, when streetcars were operated by private companies, ball games and other entertainment was actually advertised on the streetcars by the streetcar companies - because the streetcar companies made a profit on the fare. They even employed spotters to estimate the number of people at the games, so they could schedule enough streetcars to take them home.

 

So what's wrong with staying overnight so you can see a ballgame?....many people do and an overnight stay pumps over $300 per visit into the local according to the Ohio Hotel and Lodging Association. Also, most sports fans coming in from out of town are going to do so on weekends for Friday, Saturday or Sunday games, which also means more overnight stays in local hotels.

 

A one-day trip for other purposes CAN be done, even under the current proposed 3C schedule. An ideal schedule that is all things to all people....no or at least not yet.... but that's the whole point of a start-up DanB. A start-up schedule builds start-up demand for more and better service.

 

Commuting? Even the now successful California Capitol Corridors started out with a limited schedule and still manegd to attract over 20% commuter ridership. With more trains and better running times, they now count almost 60% of their riders as daily pass-holders. North Carolina, Maine, Illinois, Wisconsin and other states have all had similar experience.

 

BTW: If you're so certain that no one will ride these trains, how does that explain over 125 people waiting at Toledo Union Station for Amtrak's Capital Limited at midnight last night. I was there to see it. And this is for train service that happens in the middle of the night!

 

 

As 327 said, you've answered your own question about costs!  Most people can't afford that, especially some of those with no access to cars.  When I travel to Cleveland, I stay overnight when I want to, not because I can't get home.  I've taken 5 trips in the past month, 4 of them overnights.  It's usually too late to drive home after an Indians game, but I could easily see a 1 day trip for a Browns game.

 

I didn't say I was certain nobody would ride, but what does the Capitol Limited have to do with the 3C unless you know where those 125 people were going?  Do you know if they were traveling intrastate or interstate?  Now that might be a valuable piece of information!

Re: the argument that some people can't afford a hotel stay for a ball game. Noozer said that many people do, not that many people would. You guys are arguing about speculation, but I don't think he was speculating. You could of course ask him for evidence.

Using pro-hotel info from a hotel association may not be specluation, but... come on.  Of course the hotel association thinks overnight stays are a great idea and a thing that "many people do."  I don't care a whole lot about their assertions as they have a conflict of interest.  It's basically advertising.  That's like when Scrabble posts political "information" from Breitbart.  Conflicts of interest matter.  They really do.  They undermine otherwise valid points.

 

We're trying to set up a service with maximized benefits for Ohioans, in general, not for freight railroads or hotel associations or any other interest group.  The focus should be on what Ohioans need from this system, what would make them more likely to support it now and ride it later.  If political concerns are a barrier to providing a service that works, we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it.  But I haven't seen anything from ORDC to suggest they're even trying to make gameday service happen.  I haven't seen much to suggest ORDC is developing markets for this at all.  Everything is either viewed as a foregone conclusion or left to faith and happenstance.  That is not a plan.

 

As for the Capitol Limited... it connects to Chicago and DC!  Of course there's high demand.  Nature of the beast.  But that has little to do with 3C.  Just another reason to prioritize enhancing that line, improving its speed and its schedule, before starting on this one.  Ohio doesn't need two absurd rail schedules, we need one that's practical. 

Using pro-hotel info from a hotel association may not be specluation, but... come on. Of course the hotel association thinks overnight stays are a great idea and a thing that "many people do." I don't care a whole lot about their assertions as they have a conflict of interest. It's basically advertising. That's like when Scrabble posts political "information" from Breitbart. Conflicts of interest matter. They really do. They undermine otherwise valid points.

 

We're trying to set up a service with maximized benefits for Ohioans, in general, not for freight railroads or hotel associations or any other interest group. The focus should be on what Ohioans need from this system, what would make them more likely to support it now and ride it later. If political concerns are a barrier to providing a service that works, we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. But I haven't seen anything from ORDC to suggest they're even trying to make gameday service happen. I haven't seen much to suggest ORDC is developing markets for this at all. Everything is either viewed as a foregone conclusion or left to faith and happenstance. That is not a plan.

 

As for the Capitol Limited... it connects to Chicago and DC! Of course there's high demand. Nature of the beast. But that has little to do with 3C. Just another reason to prioritize enhancing that line, improving its speed and its schedule, before starting on this one. Ohio doesn't need two absurd rail schedules, we need one that's practical.  

 

Conflicts of interest undermine trust, but do not invalidate facts. I would hope most points are factual.

 

Really, I'm just asking to be critical of what is said here, and if you're not getting the facts you want, keep asking. Pontificating will not get them.

 

 

With all due respect, conflicts of interest actually do invalidate assertions of fact.  Not always... but this conflict is not a small one, and the assertion in question is an estimate.  We're talking about a group dedicated to the advancement of a certain type of business, throwing out a figure meant to represent their impact on local economies.  Seriously, don't try this before the legislature.  It's a fairly extreme example of an interested party advancing its interest.

 

What facts should I be wanting?  What facts should any voter or taxpayer or potential customer be wanting?  Why should anyone else decide for them what they should want to know?  Plenty of questions have been asked, by a whole lot of people, some of them in high places.  The responses need to change before the questions will.  It's unfortunate that so few of these questions were anticipated, and disappointing that the core strategy still involves talking down to people.  We need to win hearts and minds, not alienate or establish dominance.  This whole asking and answering paradigm needs to be reversed.  It's high time we start asking the market what they want from this plan.

Does that include children, as well?

 

What about a couple with one car? Is one or both of them counted?

 

No, it does not include children.

 

There are 1.5 million people in the 3C corridor who share 610,000 cars. Those are households with two or more people but just one car. All of the persons in those households are counted because each of them may be rendered car-less at different times of the year when the car is out of the picture for a long-distance (ie: downstate) trip.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267371747

 

Charter Services

Charter Your Own Private Train

 

We offer private charter trains for meetings, retreats, events or conventions. We can customize a charter train based on the size of your group and your group's individual needs.

 

We can arrange a charter train for any kind of group including corporate meetings, incentive trips, sports teams or rail fan excursions.

 

An Amtrak charter train offers:

 

Customized trip planning - catering, decorating and special activities. Flexible itinerary - depart according to your schedule. Opportunity to mingle and visit with your group - have meetings onboard or just socialize. Equipment & Accommodations

Choose from a fleet of First Class, Business Class and Bistro cars or an exclusive club-conference car. Amtrak can configure a charter train to meet the needs of your group, from basic transportation to cocktail parties onboard.

 

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We can offer guidance and assistance in planning the decorating and catering of your charter train. We can work with your advertising or event management firm to set up onboard entertainment or in-station events. Security requirements can easily be arranged for VIP clients or celebrities, including special boarding processes to ensure privacy.

 

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We offer customized menus with choices ranging from light snacks and non-alcoholic beverages to full meals and a full bar selection. We work with a number of reputable caterers that can arrange boxed meals, hor d'oeuvres or entrees.

 

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Each Charter Train is a unique experience, and as such, is priced on a case-by-case basis. Variables include the type of equipment used, the origin and destination, onboard services and food and beverage choices.

 

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Let us help you charter a train. Please contact our Charter Services Department at [email protected].

Surely a number of those households have one car and one driver (with one or more others elderly, disabled, without license by preference, etc.). It would be hard to pin down a percentage, and it would likely be small, but it might be bigger than we'd suspect.

Private charters?  Somehow RTA manages to accomodate gameday without people having to make separate arrangements to rent its trains.  It's a public service, the public need at that time is obvious, so RTA simply performs the task without prompting.  RTA's rail demand always spikes on gamedays.  RTA anticipates and responds.  It's like clockwork.  I can't believe this is so controversial when applied to 3C.  It's perhaps the most logical and predictable use for the system. 

Charters and specials are two completely different things.  There's no reason to expect people would have to (or even be able to) charter a train for a sports event.

Surely a number of those households have one car and one driver (with one or more others elderly, disabled, without license by preference, etc.). It would be hard to pin down a percentage, and it would likely be small, but it might be bigger than we'd suspect.

 

And the number is higher in lower-income households which typically have more occupants yet are more likely to share one car.

Private charters? Somehow RTA manages to accomodate gameday without people having to make separate arrangements to rent its trains. It's a public service, the public need at that time is obvious, so RTA simply performs the task without prompting. RTA's rail demand always spikes on gamedays. RTA anticipates and responds. It's like clockwork. I can't believe this is so controversial when applied to 3C. It's perhaps the most logical and predictable use for the system.  

 

It may only be controversial for Reds and Bengals games, as Eigth and State's story happened in Cinci.

Charters and specials are two completely different things. There's no reason to expect people would have to (or even be able to) charter a train for a sports event.

 

People won't have to charter a special train. Sponsors probably would - sports teams, tourism bureaus and even the state. Although the state could add a provision in its contract with Amtrak for 3C operations to have X number of special trains per year.

 

So what's wrong with staying overnight so you can see a ballgame?....many people do and an overnight stay pumps over $300 per visit into the local according to the Ohio Hotel and Lodging Association.  Also, most sports fans coming in from out of town are going to do so on weekends for Friday, Saturday or Sunday games, which also means more overnight stays in local hotels.

 

A one-day trip for other purposes CAN be done, even under the current proposed 3C schedule.  An ideal schedule that is all things to all people....no or at least not yet.... but that's the whole point of a start-up DanB.  A start-up schedule builds start-up demand for more and better service.

 

Commuting?  Even the now successful California Capitol Corridors started out with a limited schedule and still manegd to attract over 20% commuter ridership.  With more trains and better running times, they now count almost 60% of their riders as daily pass-holders.  North Carolina, Maine, Illinois, Wisconsin and other states have all had similar experience.

 

BTW:  If you're so certain that no one will ride these trains, how does that explain over 125 people waiting at Toledo Union Station for Amtrak's Capital Limited at midnight last night.  I was there to see it.  And this is for train service that happens in the middle of the night!

 

 

As 327 said, you've answered your own question about costs!  Most people can't afford that, especially some of those with no access to cars.  When I travel to Cleveland, I stay overnight when I want to, not because I can't get home.  I've taken 5 trips in the past month, 4 of them overnights.  It's usually too late to drive home after an Indians game, but I could easily see a 1 day trip for a Browns game.

 

I didn't say I was certain nobody would ride, but what does the Capitol Limited have to do with the 3C unless you know where those 125 people were going?  Do you know if they were traveling intrastate or interstate?  Now that might be a valuable piece of information!

 

My point with the Capitol Ltd is that people will ride trains even with incovenient service.  How else do you explain Amtrak ridership being up in Ohio by almost 10%?....and national ridership breaking all previous records?  It doesn't matter, in the context of this discussion, if the train in inter- or intrastate.

 

Affordability?  Half of the passengers I saw last night at Toledo were with a youth group going to DC on a tour, and their leader told me that traveling as a group was easier and more cost-effective that trying to charter a couple of buses for the same trip. Flying or driving was out of the question.  And most of this group were inner-city kids too young to drive and likely not flush with cash to make other travel choies.  The train worked for them. 

 

As for going to see sporting events... my family and I regularly go to see the Indians play (especially when the Yankees are in town. We always work it around an overnight stay, because (as most games are night games) we don't want to be driving back late at night if we can help it.  I would much prefer riding the train up on a Friday and coming back on a Saturday rather than fortifying myself with a lot of "road coffee" and competing for space on the road with beered up fans going home.  Call me crazy, but getting up the next morning, grabbing breakfast and heading home rested and awake is by far preferable.

 

We seem to be making a lot of assumptions on this thread lately about fares and schedules when neither schedules or fares have been officially set and 3C trains put in motion.  There will likely be a graduated fare structure for seniors, frequent riders, students... just as you find on other corridors.  Weekend special trains are possible, although that would have to be negotiated as part of a final agreement with the freight railroads who own the tracks.

 

All I can say is that the evidence in the ridership numbers in every state that has gone down these tracks before Ohio is that the incremental approach of starting small and growing a bigger better system works and works well.

 

Photos of Toledo Union Station as passengers wait to board eastbound Amtrak's Capitol Limited at 11:45 PM on May 15, 2010.   An estimated 125 total passengers in the waiting room with more arriving for the later eastbound Lake Shore Limited

Private charters? Somehow RTA manages to accomodate gameday without people having to make separate arrangements to rent its trains. It's a public service, the public need at that time is obvious, so RTA simply performs the task without prompting. RTA's rail demand always spikes on gamedays. RTA anticipates and responds. It's like clockwork. I can't believe this is so controversial when applied to 3C. It's perhaps the most logical and predictable use for the system.  

 

Living in Chicago and seeing all the trains on Cubs game days, this also never struck me as preferential. It was just...good transit planning.

This could go in the U.S. transportation section, but it might get overlooked there. So that's why I'm posting it here. All Aboard Ohio's president is already in Kansas City to help speak for Ohio in this effort. The KC public input meeting is tomorrow. But you can submit comments online...

_________

 

Federal Transportation Officials Seek Public Input on First Ever National Rail Plan

 

Dates and locations of public outreach meetings to solicit input toward the development of the nation’s first National Rail Plan were announced today by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA).  The National Rail Plan will lay out a coordinated vision for future development of our nation’s freight and passenger rail networks.  A final version of the plan will be released by September 15, 2010. 

 

 

“The development of the National Rail Plan must be a collaborative effort,” said FRA Administrator Joseph C. Szabo. “We want to work with states, communities, businesses, transportation experts and the public to make sure our future transportation needs are met.”

 

 

The moderated sessions will be held in five different regions and are open to media and the public.  The schedule is as follows:

 

19 May – Kansas City, MO

20 May – Atlanta, GA

26 May – New York, NY

3 June – Salt Lake City, UT

4 June – Portland, OR

 

 

Further details, including specific event locations, can be found here:  http://www.fra.dot.gov/pages/481.shtml.

 

In addition to the outreach events listed above, FRA is accepting written comments from interested individuals and organizations through a public docket that has been created for that purpose.  Instructions on how to submit comments on the National Rail Plan are available at: www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/2236. 

A press release from last month I missed. This helps explain the political polarization on this issue here in Ohio...

 

http://www.visioncritical.com/2010/04/half-of-americans-support-obamas-high-speed-rail-plan/

 

Half of Americans Support Obama’s High-Speed Rail Plan

Published on Apr 06 - 2010

 

One-third of respondents say they would use the high-speed rail corridors once they are operational.

 

Half of Americans Support Obama’s High-Speed Rail Plan Published on Apr 06 - 2010

One-third of respondents say they would use the high-speed rail corridors once they are operational.Many Americans are supportive of a government-proposed plan to build high-speed rail corridors in certain regions of the country, a new Angus Reid Public Opinion poll has found.

 

In the online survey of a representative national sample of 1,005 American adults, 49 per cent of respondents support President Barack Obama’s recently announced plan to create the high-speed rail corridors. A quarter of Americans (26%) do not back this proposal.

 

As part of this survey, respondents were shown a map that displays the 10 proposed regional high-speed rail corridors. They were then asked to choose their preferred mode of transport if they had to travel between some of the cities included in the proposal.

 

While 35 per cent of respondents say they would pick the car to travel between these cities, one third of Americans (32%) say they would prefer to travel in a high-speed train. Only 16 per cent would fly to their destination, and only three per cent would take the bus.

 

Trains and Politics

 

Democrats (70%) are decidedly more supportive of President Obama’s high-speed rail plans than Republicans (34%). Almost half of Republicans (46%), in fact, are against the corridors. Independent voters are more likely to support (45%) than to oppose (33%) the proposal.

 

Over two-in-five Democrats (44%) say they would travel by high-speed rail between the cities where the corridors are poised to be built. This compares to 24 per cent of Republicans and 30 per cent of Independents.

 

Republicans (40%) and Independents (38%) are more likely to say that they would rather travel by car to these destinations than Democrats (27%).

 

Full Report, Detailed Tables and Methodology (PDF):

http://www.visioncritical.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2010.04.06_Trains_USA.pdf

If you want to see what Ohio will enjoy someday soon, ride along between Seattle and Portland on the state-supported Amtrak Cascades service which started with one train per day and an average speed of 43 mph in 1993 (but a cruising speed of 79 mph like in Ohio). Today it has five daily round trips, an average speed of 53 mph and still a top speed of 79 mph. Please note the comfortable, state-owned, Spanish-built trains that automatically tilt into curves. Ridership grew from 180,000 per year to 745,000 riders last year....

 

 

IMHO, it's worth the 11-minute investment to watch this, especially at 480p and full-screen. It's a simple, but well-done video.

KJP, Talgo built either two or three trainsets for that route, but I don't think what's pictured are those Talgo trains. 

When I rode that line in 2009, I rode in stinky Amtrak coaches that had not been renovated since they were built sometime around 1970. I think this video is those old trains.   

All the Cascades trains have been using Talgos since the early 2000s. The only train that doesn't on that route is the Coast Starlight which uses double-deck Superliners, plus an occasional train of single-level Amfleet and Horizon cars when extra trains are run during a holiday rush, a big sporting event, or if there's a maintenance cycle when two Talgos are in for overhauls, or there's an accident. But they do use standard Amtrak locomotives and cabbage cars (de-motored F40s) in the Cascades paint scheme.

 

Maybe these pictures of the Talgos will help...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seize opportunity to reinvent Hopkins Airport as an intermodal passenger transportation hub: David Kanzeg

By Plain Dealer guest columnist

May 09, 2010, 3:57AM

By David Kanzeg

 

We all know about making lemonade from lemons. It's a metaphor for making the best of a bad situation. But I'm surprised that no one has applied that notion to Northeast Ohio's two top transportation stories. Considering all the gnashing of teeth over Cleveland's possible loss of the Continental Airlines hub, and the opportunistic pummeling of the largely wise 3C rail proposal, no one has yet made the obvious connection: to take the opportunity to reimagine Cleveland Hopkins International Airport as the Midwest's first intermodal passenger transportation hub.

 

Ohio has always sat at the critical point between the continent's East Coast and Midwest surface-transport networks. Its people have prospered by capitalizing on its strategic connectivity, whether via post-colonial canals, industrial-age lake steamers and railroads, or 20th-century superhighways. Not surprisingly, then, in the 21st century, we once again occupy the center of a fast-developing transportation revolution, whether we like it or not.

 

We are where we are -- still one of the nation's top-20 markets, within 500 miles of the majority of the continent's population. No matter what happens to Continental Airlines' route map, airline traffic to and from Cleveland will continue at substantial levels. In the meantime, passenger rail networks are growing to the east, to the west and even to the north of us. Fortuitously, the linchpin poised to connect both land and air routes is none other than Cleveland's airport. A line drawn on existing rail routes from Toronto to Buffalo, Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Cincinnati and Louisville and another drawn from Pittsburgh to Youngstown, to Cleveland, to Toledo, to South Bend, Ind., and Chicago cross one another right at Hopkins' front door; just across Ohio 237 from the airport parking garage. Even the densest of curmudgeons would recognize this as a unique opportunity.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/05/seize_opportunity_to_reinvent.html

Sweet!

Pretty good for amateur, hand-held video. I love everything about that train; the sleek European styling and color schemes, the automatic sliding doors that let you pass between cars without being a line-backer or competition weight lifter, even the sweet, melodious sound of the diesel horn at the street crossing.

 

Drivers on adjacent highways trying to pace trains are scary. I have this mental image of someone exceeding safe and legal speeds while on a cell phone with a buddy, giving a mile-by-mile narrative (or maybe shooting cell-phone video) and paying more attention to the train and his phone than to his driving.

It's very cool on the stretch between Cologne and Frankfurt where the ICE follows the Autobahn.  Cars have trouble keeping up with a 190 mph train. 

I liked that too. I shot video of that "race" from the ICE. But by then it was old hat because on that same trip I'd also overtaken traffic on parallel motorways while on the Eurostar, TGV and Thalys.

 

The first time I saw it was on the Eurostar from London to Brussels. We were paralleling the motorway through Kent, England. I nudged my sister away from her magazine to point out the "race" and when she saw how much faster we were traveling compared to the highway traffic, she laughed out loud and then caught herself.

KJP, Talgo built either two or three trainsets for that route, but I don't think what's pictured are those Talgo trains. 

When I rode that line in 2009, I rode in stinky Amtrak coaches that had not been renovated since they were built sometime around 1970. I think this video is those old trains.   

 

The trains shown in the video are the trains I've been using on that route since 2005. I rode it in January and will again next week. Some of the pics Iv'e taken are identical to what's portrayed here.

 

It's a very smooth ride. The Seattle-Tacoma-Portland trip would be quite similar to what you'd expect going Cincinnati-Dayton-Columbus, though it would be 15-30 minutes longer, I think.

 

If everyone in Ohio could experience these trains, there wouldn't be many vocal 3C opponents.

From what I can find, driving that trip takes about 3 hours, and the train trip takes about 3.5.  Is that correct?

^ I've driven it a few times. On a Sunday morning, sure, three hours is about right. But on a weekday peak, crossing the Columbia River can be a bear, and Seattle's traffic is always problematic. I'd guess for the average traveler, the train is faster if you're going downtown to downtown. And certainly more reliable.

Correct. The distance from Seattle to Portland is 187 rail miles -- identical to the rail distance between between Cleveland and Buffalo. I can drive to Buffalo in three hours.

 

Ironically, Amtrak's Lake Shore Limited takes slightly more than 3 hours from Cleveland to Buffalo at an average speed of just over 60 mph (faster than Amtrak's Cascades!) -- thanks to the flat lakeshore topography and the magnificent engineering of the New York Central RR and its predecessor, the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern RR.

 

If the 3C Corridor could offer the same average speed as the Lake Shore travels between Cleveland and Buffalo, you could travel from downtown Cleveland to downtown Cincinnati in a little more than four hours or Columbus in half that time. The 3C corridor was engineered as a good alignment back in the day, but Cleveland-Buffalo was part of the Chicago-New York City mainline of the New York Central, one of the fastest, best engineered rail corridors of its time anywhere in the world. Amtrak's Lake Shore is still benefitting from that legacy when the NYCRR's New York-Chicago route had more than 15 daily round trips operating at up to 100 mph (and then there was the PRR's NYC-CHI route via Pittsburgh which offered a comparable service)...

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the 1950s, America had what China attained just a few years ago by offering 100 mph trains between Beijing and Shanghai, and then they took the next step to 200 mph trains. Now we're trying to get back to where we were to reach the jumping off point to HSR.

 

Sorry for getting "off track."

Some very forward thinking in this guest editorial in today's Plain Dealer re: the 3C and the potential impacts of a loss of Continental Airlines routes due to the upcoming merger:

 

Seize opportunity to reinvent Hopkins Airport as an intermodal passenger transportation hub:

 

By Plain Dealer guest columnist

May 09, 2010, 3:57AM

By David Kanzeg

 

We all know about making lemonade from lemons. It's a metaphor for making the best of a bad situation. But I'm surprised that no one has applied that notion to Northeast Ohio's two top transportation stories. Considering all the gnashing of teeth over Cleveland's possible loss of the Continental Airlines hub, and the opportunistic pummeling of the largely wise 3C rail proposal, no one has yet made the obvious connection: to take the opportunity to reimagine Cleveland Hopkins International Airport as the Midwest's first intermodal passenger transportation hub.

 

Ohio has always sat at the critical point between the continent's East Coast and Midwest surface-transport networks. Its people have prospered by capitalizing on its strategic connectivity, whether via post-colonial canals, industrial-age lake steamers and railroads, or 20th-century superhighways. Not surprisingly, then, in the 21st century, we once again occupy the center of a fast-developing transportation revolution, whether we like it or not.

 

Full editorial at: http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/05/seize_opportunity_to_reinvent.html

HA HA. Posted it yesterday in the Ohio Hub/Midwest/ORDC thread since the op-ed piece dealt with more than just 3C.

Ah well...worth repeating.

PennDOT to seek federal funding for high-speed rail study

May 19. 2010 2:18PM

By Tim Hahn

 

 

A high-speed rail corridor that cuts through Erie County could become the focus of a study that the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation hopes to fund with a federal grant.

 

PennDOT District Executive Bill Petit told members of the Erie Metropolitan Organization's coordinating committee this morning that his agency was putting together an application to the Federal Rail Administration for funds to study a possible high-speed rail corridor between Cleveland and Buffalo.

 

READ MORE AT: http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100519/NEWS02/305199883

^ Wow, a very good development!

 

Here's to hoping Indy does the same for Cincy <-> Chicago.