September 24, 201014 yr Note1: The above is from detailed operational analysis by Woodside Consulting -- comprised primarily of former freight railroad executives who use methodologies embraced by the freight rail industry! Note2: Since there will likely be more trips originating from suburban stations to Columbus than traveling the length of 3C, these travel markets will likely have even higher average speeds of about 60 mph: SW Cleveland/Puritas RTA - Downtown Columbus: 2 hours, 5 minutes for 129 miles (61 mph) Do you have a link to the actual report?
September 24, 201014 yr If Kasich gets elected is 3-C completely dead? Does he have any alternative plans for rail?
September 24, 201014 yr If When Kasich gets elected is 3-C completely dead? Does he have any alternative plans for rail? Sorry.... but something drastic is going to have to change for that revision not to apply. I don't know the answers to your questions, though.
September 24, 201014 yr Kasich wants to use the money for roads and bridges, which he can't. I think he really would rather just give the money back to the Feds to use in another state. It's just that idiotic.
September 24, 201014 yr ^It's his big, shiny wedge issue and ties in perfectly to present day right wing sentiment. Obama is a proponent of rail development. 'Nuff said.
September 24, 201014 yr I couldn't help myself.... I just read through the comments in the Dispatch article that KJP posted on the previous page and I WANT TO PUNCH A WHOLE IN THE WALL!!!!! The hate and misinformation being spread on there is unfathomable. What motivates these idiots to post such things?
September 24, 201014 yr I couldn't help myself.... I just read through the comments in the Dispatch article that KJP posted on the previous page and I WANT TO PUNCH A WHOLE IN THE WALL!!!!! The hate and misinformation being spread on there is unfathomable. What motivates these idiots to post such things? KJP, can you comment on more news sites for us? ;) Your information is incredible -- thanks again!
September 24, 201014 yr Do you have a link to the actual report? The result of the simulation is not a written report but a visual computer simulation of the entire rail corridor in motion very similar to Sim City. But the outgrowth of that simulation is posted at: http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/Pages/default.aspx "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 24, 201014 yr I couldn't help myself.... I just read through the comments in the Dispatch article that KJP posted on the previous page and I WANT TO PUNCH A WHOLE IN THE WALL!!!!! The hate and misinformation being spread on there is unfathomable. What motivates these idiots to post such things? KJP, can you comment on more news sites for us? ;) Your information is incredible -- thanks again! Thanks. You all hit 'em. There's more of you than there is of me. :) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 24, 201014 yr What would be the Cincinnati to Dayton run time? 1 hour and 4 minutes one way, 1 hour and 17 minutes the other way. From: http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/Pages/default.aspx This is a pretty good start-up schedule considering we haven't had any passenger trains operating here in 40 years. It's pretty close to the best service ever offered in 3C, even during its prime when it was run by just one railroad. Today it is carrying more freight traffic than ever, subdivided among three different owners and six different operating divisions which adds layers of complexity. You'd think Kasich would welcome the 3C plan, which would invest $200 million into smoothing the flow of freight traffic and another $55 million for grade-crossing safety. As Matt Simmons at the North Carolina DOT says, the first day of a new highway is it's best day. The road will never be as smooth or as uncongested again. The first day of a new passenger rail service will be its worst day. After that, the employees get more familiar with the service, settle in, and increasingly get more operating efficiencies out of the new train service. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 24, 201014 yr 2 hours from to Clev to Columb sounds great, but I would like to hear a little more about how they came across these numbers, and why it's only now that we're getting reasonable time estimates between the 2 cities.
September 24, 201014 yr Contact these folks to learn how an operational simulation is developed, how long it takes, and when it is conducted in the grand scheme of an overall project development process... http://www.woodsideconsulting.com/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 24, 201014 yr This is a pretty nice article by the PD: Ohio releases faster passenger train schedule Published: Friday, September 24, 2010, 2:54 PM Updated: Friday, September 24, 2010, 3:18 PM Associated Press Follow Share this story Story tools Chuck Crow, The Plain Dealer The 7:00 AM Lake Shore Limited Amtrak train departs the Amtrak station in Cleveland, Ohio, heading for the east coast. Ohio authorities unveiled a speedier schedule today. 9 0 0 Share By Matt Leingang, Associated Press Writer COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Trains running on Ohio's planned passenger rail project are capable of completing the entire Cleveland-to-Cincinnati route in just over five hours, about 90 minutes faster than a previous estimate, state transportation officials said today. The new schedule is based on a more detailed computer analysis of train performance on the 255-mile route and would make the service more competitive with driving, said Scott Varner, an Ohio Department of Transportation spokesman. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/ohio_releases_faster_passenger.html
September 24, 201014 yr Scrabble, they just made the train faster. Happy now? ;-) Interesting to see the Enquirer is slower picking up the story.
September 24, 201014 yr Scrabble, they just made the train faster. Happy now? ;-) Interesting to see the Enquirer is slower picking up the story. They have to figure out how to spin it negatively before they post anything!
September 24, 201014 yr A more detailed version of earlier AP articles..... Ohio releases faster passenger train schedule By MATT LEINGANG, The Associated Press Updated 4:52 PM Friday, September 24, 2010 COLUMBUS, Ohio — Trains running on Ohio's planned passenger rail project are capable of completing the entire Cleveland-to-Cincinnati route in just over 5 hours, about 90 minutes faster than a previous estimate, state transportation officials said Friday. The new schedule is based on a more detailed computer analysis of train performance on the 255-mile route and would make the service more competitive with driving, said Scott Varner, an Ohio Department of Transportation spokesman. The faster schedule also has potential to increase ridership, which was previously estimated at 478,000 a year, but no new estimates have been completed. READ MORE AT: http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/ohio-news/ohio-releases-faster-passenger-train-schedule-941509.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 24, 201014 yr A more detailed version of earlier AP articles..... Ohio releases faster passenger train schedule By MATT LEINGANG, The Associated Press Updated 4:52 PM Friday, September 24, 2010 COLUMBUS, Ohio Trains running on Ohio's planned passenger rail project are capable of completing the entire Cleveland-to-Cincinnati route in just over 5 hours, about 90 minutes faster than a previous estimate, state transportation officials said Friday. The new schedule is based on a more detailed computer analysis of train performance on the 255-mile route and would make the service more competitive with driving, said Scott Varner, an Ohio Department of Transportation spokesman. The faster schedule also has potential to increase ridership, which was previously estimated at 478,000 a year, but no new estimates have been completed. READ MORE AT: http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/ohio-news/ohio-releases-faster-passenger-train-schedule-941509.html Awesome article. I ready for three extra trains a day arriving in Cleveland!
September 25, 201014 yr 2 hours from to Clev to Columb sounds great, but I would like to hear a little more about how they came across these numbers, and why it's only now that we're getting reasonable time estimates between the 2 cities. This is an iterative process. It's doesn't happen overnight. It takes careful and deliberate modeling of both existing rail traffic and what happens were more trains are introduced. To suggest that someone was holding something back is absurd.
September 25, 201014 yr So much for the critics slamming a "slow train". It appears their best shot now consists of saying "Oh, they're just making it up." I guess that's the modern political equivalent of a school yard child's response of "Nuh-uh !" when they've lost an argument and run out of anything of substance to say. State now says 3C train will average 50 mph Saturday, September 25, 2010 02:56 AM By James Nash THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH Ohio's 3C passenger trains just got a lot faster. State officials released a new train schedule yesterday showing that the journey from Cincinnati to Cleveland would take as little as five hours and 11 minutes, which shaves more than an hour off the state's initial forecast. The revision boosts the average train speed to more than 50 mph (including stops), a significant improvement over the oft-cited 39-mph figure state officials included in their application for a federal grant. In January, Ohio was awarded $400 million to develop passenger rail linking Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati for the first time since the early 1970s. Full story at: http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/09/25/copy/state-now-says-3c-train-will-average-50-mph.html?adsec=politics&sid=101
September 25, 201014 yr GOP spokesman Nichols doesn't even know his history. The first self-propelled railroad train was in 1804, a 19th century invention. So should we kill all 19th century technologies? Such as the automobile? Or do paved roads, pionneered by the Romans, get a pass? If age was a determinant of the value of something, and if Nichols has any grandparents, they should be real nervous whenever he comes around to "visit"..... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 25, 201014 yr WSJ article on high speed rail - read more at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703305004575504180006530598.html# High-Speed Rail Stalls Freight Carriers Balk at Sharing Tracks With the Faster Passenger ServiceArticle Interactive Graphics NewMarket Quotes By JENNIFER LEVITZ Opposition from freight railroads is threatening the Obama administration's multibillion-dollar push to make high-speed passenger trains an integral part of the U.S. transportation network.
September 25, 201014 yr Isn't it funny that the direct quotes from the freight railroads are more concillatory to accommodating passenger rail services than the unattributed statements written by certain reporters or quotes of so-called experts? Where is the proof that freight railroads oppose this? Passenger and freight trains have been operating together on the same tracks for 180 years and suddenly it's a fatal flaw for everyone but the freight and passenger railroads! There are always issues to be worked out in using busy rail corridors. These aren't fatal flaws -- they are contrived by those trying to put a stop to an issue that's been taken away from the Republicans by Democrats who decided to stop talking and start acting when it comes to passenger rail development. These reporters and so-called experts need to attend this annual conference to see what the real freight-passenger environment is: Railway Age's Seventeenth Annual Conference Passenger trains on freight railroads Oct. 18-19, 2010 http://www.railwayage.com/conferences/passenger-trains-on-freight-railroads.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 25, 201014 yr I've actually attended this conference in the recent past and all of the major freight railroads not only attend it, but they send their VP's in charge of passenger rail development. In fact, the featured speakers in some years have been the CEO's of railroads like Norfolk Southern. The year I went (2007), the speaker was the (now-retired) CEO of NS and his key remark was to the effect that though railroads in prior years had been resistant to passenger rail, they now looked upon it as a way to work with the states jointly to improve and upgrade rail corridors for both passenger & freight operations. This year's speakers are: Wick Moorman, Chairman, President & CEO of Norfolk Southern and Joseph H. Boardman, President & CEO of Amtrak I highly recommend this conference. It is not cheap, but well worth the price of admission, as it attracts the best and brightest in the passenger rail and freight rail industry. (BTW: The National Association of Railroad Passengers is also a regular attendee.
September 25, 201014 yr What kind of propaganda is out there in support of passenger rail in Ohio? Maybe more people will be in support of passenger rail if they did not equivocate it to Amtrak's service. How divided are people these days? Is there as much support for it now as there was a year ago? I am basing my architectural thesis on passenger rail in Ohio and a lot of people I have spoken to have been in support of passenger rail in Ohio, even those who are not associated with my committee. Also, one of the more recent arciticles, I believe it was in the dispatch yesterday, alluded to the possibility that someone outside of Amtrak could operate it. Who else would be able to operate it? France's SNCF or Canada's VIA? :-P Just curious to know what the alternatives are because any association with Amtrak may doom this project. It completely befuddles my mind how Kasich and other Republican's seem so keen on dismissing this as an ancient and outdated form. So many other regions in this country and even nations such as China and Brazil are considering not just passenger rail but High Speed Rail. The following statement I am about to make is one that usually makes me roll my eyes when others say it but now I think I understand. If Kasich is elected, you can pretty much guarantee that I won't be here in Ohio come this time next year. Come May, I am done with my Master's and in a position to move elsewhere. Hopefully that won't be the case. Anyway, I I may just stick around anyway and fight against the nay sayers anyway.
September 25, 201014 yr Any potential operator can bid on Ohio's 3C service, and there are non-Amtrak operators out there including Herzog http://www.herzogcompanies.com/, Veolia http://www.veoliatransportation.com/index and others. But Amtrak has a Congressionally authorized eminent domain-like power to use any rail corridor it wishes as long as it fairly compensates the owner. So you want information? I got information! First, check out the press release and its links I posted earlier in this thread. Here's some more.... Stations around America: http://freepdfhosting.com/8b1369c85e.pdf Corridor Comparisons: http://freepdfhosting.com/be8194bebc.pdf 3C: Origin of Ohio's low-mileage lifestyle http://freepdfhosting.com/e8a4a1ddb0.pdf Ohio Transport Report Card 2009 http://freepdfhosting.com/b4e4b9f05c.pdf 3C: Uniting Ohioans and their economy http://freepdfhosting.com/ced4cb55ec.pdf Recent Ohio Senate unanimous support for passenger rail http://freepdfhosting.com/50112ec035.pdf Operation Sustain Transit http://freepdfhosting.com/9766622137.pdf 3C Mythbusters! http://freepdfhosting.com/2138c66658.pdf That ought to keep ya busy for a while! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 25, 201014 yr This is an iterative process. It's doesn't happen overnight. It takes careful and deliberate modeling of both existing rail traffic and what happens were more trains are introduced. To suggest that someone was holding something back is absurd. For estimates to change from 37 mph to 61 mph between Cleveland to Columbus is a radical leap, and I don't think it's silly to question where the numbers came from and how realistic the new speeds are. I'm not saying the numbers are wrong (how the hell would I know anyway), but it's perfectly reasonable to want to learn more and even be somewhat skeptical about this project, which is now very different and far more attractive than just last week. That kind of leap is something else, and with elections on the horizon..... And considering how often Clevelanders, and I'm sure Ohioans in general, have so often received extremely flawed/fraudulent estimates for various projects (think Ameritrust building costs, Juvenile Justice Center costs, RTA line to the Flats and East 9th passenger estimates), it's certainly worth discussing.
September 25, 201014 yr I took the initial speed guesstimate of 39mph as a worst case scenario. They didn't want to over-promise on a hazy vision of the system. I think this updated speed is more likely a best case estimate of what can be done. It seems pretty realistic. There isn't any sinister political group that is trying to juice up the speeds for political gains. All the time there are freight trains flying by at those speeds why not a passenger train? I really doubt the party of "no" will change their positions.
September 25, 201014 yr Scrabble, they just made the train faster. Happy now? ;-) Interesting to see the Enquirer is slower picking up the story. Happier, yes but I still think Ohio/Great Lakes/Midwest needs real rail. Not this pansy-a$$ crap that's coming down the pike. Now's a GREAT time to build real rail in America: high speed, light/commuter, streetcars, etc. If the so-called stimulus did these things plus an "all of the above" energy policy, I'd be much much much happier with this administration.
September 26, 201014 yr For estimates to change from 37 mph to 61 mph between Cleveland to Columbus is a radical leap, The running time from Cleveland to Columbus in the previous baseline estimate from Amtrak, which was not based on a detailed analysis of rail traffic flows, was actually just under 3 hours for an average speed of about 45-46 mph. This is actually pretty common to see travel time savings, even substantial ones, as the engineering process advances. And this is a wonderful example of why you do an operational analysis. Happier, yes but I still think Ohio/Great Lakes/Midwest needs real rail. Not this pansy-a$$ crap that's coming down the pike. Now's a GREAT time to build real rail in America: high speed, light/commuter, streetcars, etc. Sorry chief, but transportation evolves, just like everything else. While I'd love to go from no federal capital investment program for passenger rail/high speed rail in the entire history of America prior to 2008 to a kick-ass, world-class high-speed rail program today, nothing works that way. That's especially true when we totally lack a rail culture, a political will, supportive land use patterns and the connecting local/regional transportation systems (including conventional-speed rail systems). This doesn't just magically appear. To build this supportive system in the Great Lakes region is easily a $50 billion tab and a 20-30 year timeline -- before we're ready to advance to high-speed rail. Sometimes I don't think people realize how far behind we really are, or what's needed to build high-speed rail. Take a look at all of the 79 mph intercity rail, commuter rail, subways, light-rail etc that California has built in the past 30-40 years to create just the political environment where elected officials were able to do the heavy political lifting to put a $10 billion high-speed rail bond issue on the ballot two years ago to help fund a $40+ billion HSR line. All previous ballot issues failed because the state had an undeveloped conventional rail system as a foundation. Maybe someday more Ohioans will appreciate this evolutionary process. Start by going to see what other places have and how they got there. Check out Europe sometime and count the 10s of thousands of 60-90 mph trains each European nation has in operation each DAY... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 26, 201014 yr Please note that all of these started with just several daily round trips per day with average speeds of 30-45 mph... http://amtrakdev.virtual.vps-host.net/default/index.cfm/routes/ Capitol Corridor (started with just three daily round trips in 1991): http://www.capitolcorridor.org/included/docs/schedules/train_schedules.pdf Pacific Surfliner Corridor (started with just two daily round trips in 1974 -- in addition to the below schedules, it also has very frequent commuter rail Metrolink and Coaster that were started with just several weekday trains in the early 1990s): http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249213944925&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_W31.pdf The San Joaquin started with just one train in 1974. Today it has numerous bus connections, light-rail links and regional rail connections such as the ACE (Altamont Commuter Express to San Jose) most of which were developed since 1990.... http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249213944877&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_W33.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 201014 yr I think selling people on the 3-C is "how do you get from d-town Columbus the destination. Sure, people see that they can get from Puritas to Columbus in 2 hours which is similar to driving, but how do they get out to their meeting in an office park in Dublin from there, and how long will that take to get there. Obviously, a cab is not an option as that would cost about $30 from the city which totally defeats the purpose of trying to save money ($60 roundtrip). When I talk to people about the 3-C, and ty to tell them the benefit of it, they always reply with this response. I am a supporter of the 3-C, but the problem I think we deal with in Ohio is the fact that we do not suffer from severe traffic congestion on our interstates. Sure, rush may hold you back a few minutes, but when travelling from one city to the next, you pretty much just cruise right through it. Transportation just does not seem to be a hot issue on the average persons mind in Ohio. People really don't complain about a commute, or dread a long drive to Columbus stuck in traffic and dealing with tollboths along the way, becasue we don't have that. In addition, the average person just does not see the spinoff from transportation centers. They go out to Portland or Minny, and see the TOD around a train station, and they don't even put two an two together on why it became vibrant. Just a rant on my part, but that is the only reason why I can think people in Ohio are ignoran on this issue.
September 27, 201014 yr Some trips cannot be accommodated by 3C, just as the car cannot accommodate every traveler. The trick is to design the train service so it can serve the most travelers. Despite Ohio's urban sprawl, most travel to any single district in a given metro area is still to the central business district or nearby. This is helped by the presence of major universities, convention centers, sporting venues and cultural/tourist attractions, most of which are located in or near Ohio downtowns. Something that is getting overlooked is that there will be a North Columbus station, but possibly not at the outset of service. It is very likely it will be added within a year or two of service start-up, as would a station for North Central (Galion, Shelby, etc) and in the Hamilton/Middletown area. The North Columbus station sites considered are Worthington, Crosswoods/COTA, Polaris or Delaware. My personal preference is Crosswoods/COTA because it is transit-linked and accessible to/from I-270. This would also be an ideal location for your Dublin-bound friend, as the taxi or shuttle bus ride to Dublin wouldn't take long at all. But ultimately, the rail service and the central city would grow in tandem, as has happened elsewhere. BTW, I've driven I-71 many times and often endured substantial delays (30-60 minutes) due to weather or accidents. Most times, though, it just wears me out even when everything goes according to plan. EDIT: the downtown Columbus station will be next to the convention center on High Street, COTA's busiest transit route... http://www.cota.com/assets/Riding-Cota/Schedules/Current/002h.pdf http://www.cota.com/assets/Riding-Cota/Schedules/Current/021.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 201014 yr I see the primary benefit for Columbus area residents. They will have the most to gain since they have three close destinations via rail to choose from. It would be silly for them not to be supportive of 3C. Transit should be getting set up for handling 200-400 people that hop off a train. But also 200-400 that hop on the train in Columbus. That is the major benefit of buses so that when a major change happens in a downtown they can shift routes. I think this is going to create major dynamics change in downtown Columbus which will improve the transit options. Plus there are people that actually have their destinations as downtown or OSU. I don't see this being a big deal. I would expect some free shuttles from various institutions and even hotels.
September 27, 201014 yr While it doesn't address all concerns of course, I like to point out to those who think passenger rail is unrealistic because of a lack of local transit options that very few airports are served by transit. Taxis and rental cars tend to be the norm for getting from the airport to wherever you're going, which is usually downtown anyway. With a train station already in or near downtown, the worst case scenario is a short taxi ride to your final destination, and that's still way better than the situation with flying.
September 27, 201014 yr While it doesn't address all concerns of course, I like to point out to those who think passenger rail is unrealistic because of a lack of local transit options that very few airports are served by transit. Taxis and rental cars tend to be the norm for getting from the airport to wherever you're going, which is usually downtown anyway. With a train station already in or near downtown, the worst case scenario is a short taxi ride to your final destination, and that's still way better than the situation with flying. I wish 3C could team up with a car-sharing company to offers hourly rental cars at every station. While Cleveland has Citywheels, and Columbus has Connect by Hertz already, one unified company operating lots at all stations would be reasonably easy to coordinate and really convenient for travelers.
September 27, 201014 yr Do I just have bad luck going through Columbus? During the two trip I made to Cincy last year, I definitely hit some delays, especially south of Downtown CBus.
September 27, 201014 yr I wish 3C could team up with a car-sharing company to offers hourly rental cars at every station. While Cleveland has Citywheels, and Columbus has Connect by Hertz already, one unified company operating lots at all stations would be reasonably easy to coordinate and really convenient for travelers. Deutsche Bahn has a car-sharing program; it wouldn't be a completely crazy idea for the 3C operator to eventually have one. However, with public transit and intercity rail coming to the forefront, Zipcar might actually want in on the action...if they're solvent yet.
September 27, 201014 yr I wish 3C could team up with a car-sharing company to offers hourly rental cars at every station. While Cleveland has Citywheels, and Columbus has Connect by Hertz already, one unified company operating lots at all stations would be reasonably easy to coordinate and really convenient for travelers. One way to do that is by creating an economy of scale -- the state could contact with a car-sharing company to provide a minimum number of vehicles to be available at a station for state employees to use. There are a lot of state employees traveling on state business in 3C, so many that if 3C trains were available, they could conservatively save the state $5 million to $10 million per year. While most state offices are in the downtowns, not all state business travel is bound for the state offices. So having a car-sharing service under contract with the state would help make it cost-effective for a car-sharing service to locate at 3C stations. BTW, the budget offset from this, plus revenues from the Logo highway sign program, should equal if not exceed the 3C operating cost to the state. That doesn't even get into wireless service contracts, onboard/station rentals/leases, advertising, sponsorships, etc. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 201014 yr TBideon, I believe the initial estimate between Cleveland and Columbus was around 50 mph, not 37 mph. The Dayton to Cincinnati leg has always been the one estimated to bring the average way down. EDIT: Never mind, I see KJP already addressed this above.
September 28, 201014 yr While it doesn't address all concerns of course, I like to point out to those who think passenger rail is unrealistic because of a lack of local transit options that very few airports are served by transit. Taxis and rental cars tend to be the norm for getting from the airport to wherever you're going, which is usually downtown anyway. With a train station already in or near downtown, the worst case scenario is a short taxi ride to your final destination, and that's still way better than the situation with flying. I wish 3C could team up with a car-sharing company to offers hourly rental cars at every station. While Cleveland has Citywheels, and Columbus has Connect by Hertz already, one unified company operating lots at all stations would be reasonably easy to coordinate and really convenient for travelers. Really great idea. Then you wouldn't here this talk of "Once I get to Cleveland/Columbus/Sharonville, I won't have my car". They need to think of innovative way to pay for this thing. Maybe there's some way to boost ad revenue.
September 28, 201014 yr They need to think of innovative way to pay for this thing. Maybe there's some way to boost ad revenue. Yes, the ad revenue is called the Logo highway sign program. Most states get a lot more revenue from their sign contractors than Ohio does. So ODOT will rebid it and use only the additional revenues for 3C. I'd be very surprised and disappointed if ODOT seeks funding from the general treasury since ideologues and other misinformed persons want to make sure rail is the only transportation mode not allowed to touch it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 28, 201014 yr ^--- Gee, KJP, do you think we need a separate thread for highway-bashing? It's wearing some of us down, enough to discourage reading the 3-C thread. Yes, I know that Ohio spends who-knows-how many $billions on highways with just a token amount for rail. Life isn't fair. Nevertheless, the 3-C has to stand by itself, considering the world we live in. Whether there is a genuine conspiracy or not, the people who benefit from highways, whether they be contractors, politicians, or users are not interested in change that they view as detrimental. After all of these pages, I am really leaning toward the idea that the 3-C line should run on rubber tires on I-71, if it is to run at all. Some pages back, I showed some calculations that a bus route will outperform a railroad in terms of operation costs, based on the projected ridership. Megabus is doing well.
September 28, 201014 yr 8th and State: Rail has numerous advantages over bus including: less traffic congestion, less asphalt deterioration (which it has been pointed out requires millions to replace), pollution reduction, transportation diversification, and speed. Yes speed, present and in the future. Present: While current reports quote service times based on stops all along the line, no one ever said that the train has to stop at every station. Thus, express services (C direct to C lines) at 80mph would make the trip faster than a bus dealing with traffic. Future speeds will provide safe travel double current highway "maximums." Also I believe the point of the highway investment numbers are basically to fly opposite your contention that "rail must stand on its own..." The US highway system stands on hundreds of Billions in investment to service people who can afford cars or choose to have cars (not everyone does but everyone has to pay for highways). In no way does any other form of national infrastructure stand on its own.
September 28, 201014 yr 8th and State: Rail has numerous advantages over bus including: less traffic congestion, less asphalt deterioration (which it has been pointed out requires millions to replace), pollution reduction, transportation diversification, and speed. Yes speed, present and in the future. Present: While current reports quote service times based on stops all along the line, no one ever said that the train has to stop at every station. Thus, express services (C direct to C lines) at 80mph would make the trip faster than a bus dealing with traffic. Future speeds will provide safe travel double current highway "maximums." Also I believe the point of the highway investment numbers are basically to fly opposite your contention that "rail must stand on its own..." The US highway system stands on hundreds of Billions in investment to service people who can afford cars or choose to have cars (not everyone does but everyone has to pay for highways). In no way does any other form of national infrastructure stand on its own. Well put. ^--- Gee, KJP, do you think we need a separate thread for highway-bashing? It's wearing some of us down, enough to discourage reading the 3-C thread. Yes, I know that Ohio spends who-knows-how many $billions on highways with just a token amount for rail. Life isn't fair. Nevertheless, the 3-C has to stand by itself, considering the world we live in. Whether there is a genuine conspiracy or not, the people who benefit from highways, whether they be contractors, politicians, or users are not interested in change that they view as detrimental. After all of these pages, I am really leaning toward the idea that the 3-C line should run on rubber tires on I-71, if it is to run at all. Some pages back, I showed some calculations that a bus route will outperform a railroad in terms of operation costs, based on the projected ridership. Megabus is doing well. You're comparing an intercity bus against a multi-car train?.... a bus that makes virtually no intermediate stops?.... a bus that has to compete for space on the same highways as the rest of the vehicular traffic?... a bus with little or no room to take out a laptop and get something done or get up and walk around? Sorry, I'd rather a smooth ride on steel rails, with a roomy seat and the option of walking into a cafe or bistro car for coffee and a snack on the way to a business meeting... or a beer on the way home.... and never having to put my hands on the wheel or worry about getting stuck in a 2 hour traffic jam like the last time (last Wednesday) I arrived on the outskirts of Columbus. :-D
September 28, 201014 yr KJP, I think you had mentioned that the 3 C would be getting renovated railcars. Well rolling by the Brookpark Rapid station this morning were some "antique" Norfolk Southern passenger cars. These aren't the renovated cars you were talking about right? ;) BTW, do you know what/where/why they are doing here
September 28, 201014 yr Sorry, I'd rather a smooth ride on steel rails, with a roomy seat and the option of walking into a cafe or bistro car for coffee and a snack on the way to a business meeting... or a beer on the way home.... and never having to put my hands on the wheel or worry about getting stuck in a 2 hour traffic jam like the last time (last Wednesday) I arrived on the outskirts of Columbus. :-D I still maintain that most people who compare bus and train as if they are interchangeable have either never ridden a train or never ridden a bus before.
September 28, 201014 yr KJP, I think you had mentioned that the 3 C would be getting renovated railcars. Well rolling by the Brookpark Rapid station this morning were some "antique" Norfolk Southern passenger cars. These aren't the renovated cars you were talking about right? ;) BTW, do you know what/where/why they are doing here Those "antiques" :wink: are probably Norfolk Southern's fleet of business/office cars. They are used for corridor inspections and special events. We see them a lot here in oio because we are now pretty much the heart of NS's system. As for what will run in the 3C, that is still under study as part of the latest round of funding that ODOT?ORDC got from the State Controlling Board. They still have to come up with a set of design specifications before the decision can be made to buy new rail cars or use rehabbed passenger cars in the interim.
September 28, 201014 yr Sorry, I'd rather a smooth ride on steel rails, with a roomy seat and the option of walking into a cafe or bistro car for coffee and a snack on the way to a business meeting... or a beer on the way home.... and never having to put my hands on the wheel or worry about getting stuck in a 2 hour traffic jam like the last time (last Wednesday) I arrived on the outskirts of Columbus. :-D I still maintain that most people who compare bus and train as if they are interchangeable have either never ridden a train or never ridden a bus before. Absolutely...there's no comparison.
Create an account or sign in to comment