November 6, 20177 yr Bill O'Neill is the man. He was my brother's nurse at Hillcrest Hospital ten years ago for some kind of broken bone, don't remember. Then he decided he'd had enough of nursing for the time being, so he became a supreme court justice. Kind of weird to have a sitting justice get all into political debates though - we need to stop electing them. I like the guy. He's a Facebook friend because I was arguing with one of our mutual friends (another Dem) over some issue or another. The point being is he's not a purist that won't work with the other side. Perfectly sane policies like marijuana legalization and high speed rail, and then this: "Take a fast food worker who is making $9.00 an hour today, raise their wages to $15.00 and I guarantee you next Saturday they will go out and buy a new Jeep Wrangler made in Toledo, Ohio." I thought the dumbest thing I've heard is the idea of a $15.00 minimum wage in Ohio. Until I read the idea that someone making that $15/hr minimum would immediately purchase a $27,000 car, and that this would be a good idea. He does have strong union ties, and there's a (not so) little Easter Egg in the $15.00 minimum wage. Quite a few union contracts are written to ensure that the base rate is at least such and such a percentage above the minimum wage, with higher levels getting bumped accordingly. So that $27,000 car wouldn't be that price for long.
November 17, 20177 yr Not quite sure where this belongs, but I came across an interesting table (see attachment) in the following article about Flixbus entering the U.S. market. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/11/europes-intercity-bus-juggernaut-is-rolling-into-the-us/545558/ Of routes with neither express coach nor rail service, Cleveland is the origin or destination in two of the top four most heavily traveled. Meanwhile, Columbus is the origin or destination in four of the top 10. With 1.4 mil trips taken annually between Cleveland and Columbus and 1.9 mil between Cleveland and Detroit, one could only imagine the demand for high speed or even conventional rail along the routes... Ground_Transportation_Gaps_Table.pdf
November 17, 20177 yr Regarding Flixbus, here's a good thread: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php?topic=4658.0 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 17, 20177 yr Not quite sure where this belongs, but I came across an interesting table (see attachment) in the following article about Flixbus entering the U.S. market. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/11/europes-intercity-bus-juggernaut-is-rolling-into-the-us/545558/ Of routes with neither express coach nor rail service, Cleveland is the origin or destination in two of the top four most heavily traveled. Meanwhile, Columbus is the origin or destination in four of the top 10. With 1.4 mil trips taken annually between Cleveland and Columbus and 1.9 mil between Cleveland and Detroit, one could only imagine the demand for high speed or even conventional rail along the routes... For other people wondering, Cincinnati-Columbus was ineligible for this list because they only included routes in the 120-400 mile range. Cincinnati-Columbus is about 100 miles. Edit: More Ohio routes on the top-40 list: 11. Detroit-Cincinnati 14. NYC-Youngstown 15. Columbus-Indianapolis 16. Chicago-Dayton 19. Cincinnati-Cleveland 21. Pittsburgh-Cincinnati 24. Detroit-Dayton 28. Cincinnati-Nashville 30. StL-Cincinnati 31. Columbus-Toledo 34. DC-Youngstown 37. Louisville-Dayton 38. Cleveland-Indianapolis 39. Cleveland-Dayton Source (pdf) Probably not surprising to any of us here that the eastern Midwest, and especially Ohio, would light up a list of most-frequently traveled routes without train or "express coach" service.
January 17, 20187 yr All Aboard Ohio has been pushing for this for 20 years... Passenger rail platform project a go http://www.chroniclet.com/Local-News/2018/01/17/Passenger-rail-platform-project-a-go.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 19, 20187 yr All Aboard Ohio has been pushing for this for 20 years... Passenger rail platform project a go http://www.chroniclet.com/Local-News/2018/01/17/Passenger-rail-platform-project-a-go.html I agree Ken. This is a great project for the city and county, one that will combine intercity rail, Greyhound and LCT in one location. And if I am mistaken, it will incorporate the old New York Central station house as well. [/img]
January 19, 20187 yr And I do have to say, from a vanity standpoint, it gets Elyria off CityLab's infamous list of the worst Amtrak stations...but Cleveland's still on it. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/07/these-are-the-saddest-amtrak-stations-in-america/397817/
January 26, 20187 yr Very encouraging news from Sandusky, where 2017's ridership has topped 10,000 (first time that's happened this decade): https://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/2454/sky.pdf
January 26, 20187 yr All Aboard Ohio has been pushing for this for 20 years... Passenger rail platform project a go http://www.chroniclet.com/Local-News/2018/01/17/Passenger-rail-platform-project-a-go.html Quick question Ken: Will the new Elyria platform be able to accept high speed rail, or higher speed rail? Even though the 3C and Ohio Hub plans have been shelved, it would be smart to have a least one station ready to go, once the political climate changes.
January 26, 20187 yr Quick question Ken: Will the new Elyria platform be able to accept high speed rail, or higher speed rail? Even though the 3C and Ohio Hub plans have been shelved, it would be smart to have a least one station ready to go, once the political climate changes. It's a possibility because the station is designed to accommodate four tracks through it. There currently are only two main tracks through the station plus a little-used industrial siding track. EDIT: BTW, the provision to allow for four tracks through the station was done at the urging of freight railroad Norfolk Southern. They urged the same thing 85 miles west on this same line, at the new McChord Road underpass on the west side of Toledo -- include enough space for four tracks. So if passenger-only tracks are desired, they may need to be done in addition to NS's four-track reservation. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 1, 20186 yr Yes, Norfolk Southern is a PITA to deal with on Amtrak stations. But others were able to move forward; Lorain County should too with its Elyria station. Why? Read: http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/LTE-ChronicleTelegram-090118.pdf Conjuring bathrooms/caretaker as an issue suggest another entity should sponsor this important project. More than restrooms threaten Elyria train platform project http://www.chroniclet.com/Local-News/2018/08/31/More-than-restrooms-threaten-Elyria-train-platform-project.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 31, 20186 yr Great work by AAO's Toledo advocates and TMACOG !! Council will consider studying rail line between Toledo, Detroit https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2018/10/30/TMACOG-studying-feasibility-reinstating-toledo-detroit-rail-line/stories/20181030050 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 9, 20186 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 9, 20186 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 12, 20186 yr With Richard Branson's Virgin Group investing in Brightline (which will soon be changed to Virgin Trains USA) and a private company looking to follow Brightline's model for a commuter rail project in Milwaukee (see latest post Private Intercity Passenger Rail Projects thread), it's looking more and more like the 3C Corridor (and some others in Ohio) would be good candidates for private investment/development to bring us train service. In fact, All Aboard Ohio has sent information to Brightline about the 3C, PGH-COL-Lima-FTW-CHI, DET-TOL-CLE-YTO-PGH, and CIN-CHI corridors about why they are worth considering for their investment. Edited December 12, 20186 yr by gildone
April 17, 20196 yr Just as important is the question: what will the benefits be? And the benefits are more significant than the costs..... What would it cost for rail service linking Toledo, Detroit, and Ann Arbor? https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2019/04/16/toledo-city-council-passenger-rail-service-linking-detroit-ann-arbor/stories/20190416168/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 30, 20196 yr I took KJP's incredibly helpful map of the proposed 3-C route buried somewhere back in this thread and created a Google Map of it. This also shows the existing Amtrak lines (in less detail). Please take a look at the link and let me know if I got it right. I did include a few stations that were not on the official proposal report - those station inclusions were based on discussions in this thread. https://drive.google.com/open?id=15lcIcdt6ccSaZsZlUVtirtBH_kxw-yGG&usp=sharing When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
April 30, 20196 yr Yup, looks pretty good. Wish it could've happened. Too bad Ohio acted like an anti-vaxxer parent when it won the $400 million rail vaccination. Edited April 30, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 30, 20196 yr A couple of thoughts if maybe this wouldn’t be more successful now. Just like i believe it is MTS loves his one train rides from Shaker Square to the airport, so would people with airline options in Columbus or Mansfield or Dayton for that matter, love taking a train to CLE to depart especially in inclement weather. A factor back in 2010 was that Lyft and Uber did not exist so people would’ve thought even if they go to a nearby train station in Columbus to go to Cleveland they will still have to incorporate a parking fee in their travels and the travel time is not much different and the expense of gas vs a ticket on a train is not that different. That would likely be a deal breaker. So maybe with an older, wiser(?), Ohio population, they can see the advantages now of a 3C train system.
April 30, 20196 yr 1 hour ago, audidave said: So maybe with an older, wiser(?), Ohio population, they can see the advantages now of a 3C train system. Stop with your Euro-socialist nonsense! Older Ohioans want to drive on their FREE roads to strip malls!
April 30, 20196 yr ^^ I completely agree. I often think about how the relatively new ride sharing services, and even self driving cars, are perfect complements to proper public transit. The former become the “last mile” service, while the latter can handle volume and also are much more efficient for distance. And the Hopkins airport connection was always a great feature of the proposal. Edited April 30, 20196 yr by Boomerang_Brian When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
April 30, 20196 yr There was no high-quality rail corridor available via Akron or Canton. The capital cost of upgrading rail infrastructure would have been much more significant. And the added time going by way of Akron (1 hour more) and via Canton (1.5 hours) caused a significant drop in ridership/revenue to/from Cleveland and a significant increase in operating cost/subsidy that would not have been made up by going via Akron or Akron/Canton. This map shows all of the rail corridors available as of the early 1980s. I highlighted in gray the routes originally engineered and currently maintained for freight train speeds of 50 mph or higher as of 10 years ago. A rail corridor that can accommodate freight train speeds that high can potentially accommodate a few daily passenger trains operating even faster (ie 79 mph or more) with some modest upgrading (ie less than $3 million per mile). Disregard the highlighted route through Athens, BTW. The yellow lines represent (then as now) the best available alternatives to the 3C Corridor mainline. Edited April 30, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 30, 20196 yr ^ Plus an Akron route would have caused it to miss Grafton. ? Seriously though, the Akron routes also mean missing Cleveland Hopkins Airport. When business has taken me to Germany, the fact that one can fly to Frankfurt and walk to the high speed rail station at the airport terminal is huge. There are many smaller cities within an easy two hour high speed train ride. It is so much easier to do business in these smaller cities in Germany because of this infrastructure. Edited April 30, 20196 yr by Boomerang_Brian When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
April 30, 20196 yr BTW, this element may be included in the Hopkins Airport long-range plan, although I don't know how serious it is. This would be a stop for existing Amtrak trains and possibly a modest expansion. But this would mean eliminating downtown Cleveland as a station. I don't see that happening unless the city fumbles the ball on developing the intermodal hub.... Edited April 30, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 30, 20196 yr 20 minutes ago, KJP said: BTW, this element may be included in the Hopkins Airport long-range plan, although I don't know how serious it is. This would be a stop for existing Amtrak trains and possibly a modest expansion. But this would mean eliminating downtown Cleveland as a station. I don't see that happening unless the city fumbles the ball on developing the intermodal hub.... KJP, is this a graphic by you or from a governmental source? This path for Amtrak would require using a different ROW than the current tracks, correct?
April 30, 20196 yr This sketch is by the consulting firm working on the airport masterplan. I don't know if it will make it into the draft or final masterplan however. Amtrak currently operates past the airport on these tracks, then turns west on Norfolk Southern's Chicago Line at Berea. The 3C trains would have switched over to CSX tracks at Berea and headed southwest. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 30, 20196 yr It's a worthwhile stop, based on the traffic growth I have observed at the Baltimore-Washington Int'l Airport rail stop; and the BWI stop is off-premises - it takes a 10-minute bus ride to get there from the airport. Of course BWI (with Amtrak and Maryland-sponsored MARC trains) sees much more rail traffic than CLE would and, even at that, the traffic growth took 20 plus YEARS to develop. Without additional rail service, I'm not sure a CLE rail stop can be justified. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
April 30, 20196 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: BTW, this element may be included in the Hopkins Airport long-range plan, although I don't know how serious it is. This would be a stop for existing Amtrak trains and possibly a modest expansion. But this would mean eliminating downtown Cleveland as a station. I don't see that happening unless the city fumbles the ball on developing the intermodal hub.... 1 The city is doing a fine job of fumbling the intermodal hub so far! Let's hope that there is someone working behind the scenes to surprise us on that score.
May 16, 20196 yr 49 minutes ago, Terdolph said: New $$ available to re-start intercity rail in Ohio? "Mr. Batory, in his letter Thursday, said his agency planned to open up the $928.6 million it was stripping from the California project to bids for funding other intercity rail projects around the country." This is $$ the feds are not giving to Cal. for their HSR. Also, the feds are talking about "clawing back" $2.5 billion. That is a lot of dough. That would be awesome. Maybe our new Republican governor will aggressively pursue a previous Republican governor’s outstanding Ohio Hub rail plan that was indefensibly derailed by the Republican governor in between them. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
May 17, 20196 yr Don't bet on it. The Federal Railroad Administration is bound by its full funding grant agreement with California DOT which is using those funds for their intended purpose. Trump's FRA can say what it wants, but it is going to face a well-earned legal challenge if it keeps up its revisionist history. By the time that legal case is done, Biff is unlikely to be in the White House unless he gets a 3rd term. And while we are hearing more positive rhetoric from ODOT Director Marchbanks, they're a long way from initiating let alone completing a project development process to be eligible for federal rail funds again. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 19, 20196 yr I added the entire Ohio Hub Passenger Rail 2007 plan to the Ohio 3-C Google Map that I previously shared. These are based on the 2007 Ohio Hub 312 pg detailed report pdf that @KJP has previously posted. I'm also including a couple illustrations from that report below my google map screenshots. Check out the map and let me know your thoughts: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15lcIcdt6ccSaZsZlUVtirtBH_kxw-yGG&usp=sharing This map includes the three relevant existing Amtrak lines. Those are not as detailed as the Ohio Hub lines I created. All of this is built on existing freight track, with the exception of the Dayton - Indianapolis "shortcut". (The "shortcut" on my map looks different from the official report because I was trying to follow rail tracks where I could find them.) If I'm understanding the report correctly, the orange routes would have taken more upgrading work to make efficient passenger rail (as compared to the blue routes). The Columbus to Pittsburgh track looks particularly brutal, which I suppose is understandable considering the terrain. Things that I noticed: - Wow is the Detroit Amtrak station in a lousy location. Maybe implementing this plan gets that station moved downtown. - I think it's great that Cleveland Hopkins, Columbus John Glenn, and Detroit Metro airports would all have stations. And the Cleveland - Pittsburgh line goes pretty close to Pittsburgh's airport, so a station could be added there. - If you're wondering "what about Akron and Canton"? As @KJP has previously detailed, to include it in the 3-C line would require much more significant track upgrades (particularly from Hudson to Akron) and would add way too much time to the journey to be worth the effort. I'm under the impression the added time would actually decrease overall ridership, even with the additional people from stops at Akron and Canton. (Both Akron and Canton would be within 20 miles of stations on the CLE-PIT line anyway.) - But there is good news on the Akron and Canton front - a proper Ohio Hub implementation could be coordinated with a NEO commuter rail system. A Cleveland / Bedford / Hudson / Cuyahoga Falls / Akron / CAK Airport / Pro Football HoF / Canton line would be outstanding. Longer term that could be extended to Massillon, New Philadelphia, and on to Dennison (on existing track) to connect with the Columbus - Pittsburgh Hub line. - The Hub report calls the Warren / Youngstown route the "preferred" option on the CLE-Pitt line (as opposed to the existing Amtrak route for Chicago - DC via CLE and Pitt through Alliance). If that happened, would the existing Amtrak line also re-route? - Sandusky station - hello Cedar Point. - I can't help but think that smaller towns with stations on one of these lines would benefit even more than Cleveland/Columbus/Cincinnati. Perhaps this is why the original plans had some level of bi-partisan support? - How much would Toledo enjoy finally having a direct connection to Columbus? I hope we see this become reality someday. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
June 5, 20196 yr So.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 5, 20196 yr 15 minutes ago, KJP said: So.... My vote is rail traffic bottleneck. Maybe I need to finally sign up for Twitter so I can respond? ? When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
June 5, 20196 yr Posting here is fine. I'll collect them however I see them. So which bottleneck should be addressed? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 6, 20196 yr 6 hours ago, KJP said: Posting here is fine. I'll collect them however I see them. So which bottleneck should be addressed? Norfolk Southern lift bridge at the mouth of the Cuyahoga, obviously. I suppose that will cost a wee bit more than $5M. ? Seriously though, I don’t know enough about rail traffic patterns and hold-ups to know which bottleneck would be the best use of money. My response was that of the four options listed, working on rail bottlenecks would be the best use of money. E.G., a nicer Amtrak station would have less impact on ridership than improved reliability, which would presumably be a reasonable result of spending on rail bottlenecks. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
June 6, 20196 yr However most Ohio stations are bottlenecks. Station projects being proposed/partially funded across Northern Ohio would improve reliability.... See the presentation linked below and especially pages 9, 11 & 12 as to why: http://freepdfhosting.com/95e4d597d2.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 6, 20196 yr 13 minutes ago, KJP said: However most Ohio stations are bottlenecks. Station projects being proposed/partially funded across Northern Ohio would improve reliability.... See the presentation linked below and especially pages 9, 11 & 12 as to why: http://freepdfhosting.com/95e4d597d2.pdf Ah, so it was a trick question. Then my response is “whatever will have the biggest impact on reliability.” And that report was interesting - thanks. Why are Toledo’s ridership numbers so much higher than Cleveland’s when they are the same routes? Is it because Toledo’s airport is not well served? Or because all the trains hit Cleveland in the wee hours of the morning? Also, how have RR ridership numbers been since gas prices have fallen? I drove from Cleveland to Columbus again today. Yet another opportunity to resent Kasich for killing my rail option. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
June 6, 20196 yr It wasn't intended to be a trick question. But the stations are a bottleneck. Cleveland station probably has one of the worst bottlenecks, in part because of the station design (1 platform on only 1 track), and in part because of inadequate track layout. See the All Aboard Ohio report here: White Paper: Reducing rail traffic congestion on the Downtown Cleveland Lakefront http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/WhitePaper-ClevelandLakefrontrailcongestion.pdf Cincinnati also has a significant bottleneck for multiple reasons. And yes, I did a report/presentation on that too! Cincinnati Union Terminal-3C-Quick-Start-access092909http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/CUT-3C-Quick-Start-access092909.pdf Edited June 6, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 6, 20196 yr 8 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Ah, so it was a trick question. 7 hours ago, KJP said: It wasn't intended to be a trick question. Sorry, I forgot to use sarcasm font. That was a joke. I’m disappointed that you can’t detect my vocal tone in my written words. (Do you guys use italics for sarcasm around here?) When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
June 6, 20196 yr Nah, just emoticons ? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 6, 20196 yr Cleveland's Amtrak station has my vote- it's antiquated, a bottleneck, and unimpressive. There is so much potential to make an investment in the Amtrak station a part of a larger lakefront project as well.
June 6, 20196 yr 15 hours ago, KJP said: It wasn't intended to be a trick question. But the stations are a bottleneck. Cleveland station probably has one of the worst bottlenecks, in part because of the station design (1 platform on only 1 track), and in part because of inadequate track layout. See the All Aboard Ohio report here: White Paper: Reducing rail traffic congestion on the Downtown Cleveland Lakefront http://allaboardohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/WhitePaper-ClevelandLakefrontrailcongestion.pdf Thanks for all the great details. Back to answering the original question, my vote is for any funding to go to as many of the proposed Cleveland station track / platform fixes as possible, with the emphasis on decreasing the bottlenecks to improve service reliability. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
June 6, 20196 yr And a nightmare to get to and leave by foot (the East 9th rapid station is currently the only way of arriving/escaping). Though I think, I THINK, you can get to West 3rd if you walk on the highway briefly (since that red overpass is still out of commission). They have got to connect that area better to the city if the station is ever rebuilt/modernized.
June 6, 20196 yr Just now, TBideon said: And a nightmare to get to and leave by foot (the East 9th rapid station is currently the only way of arriving/escaping). Though I think, I THINK, you can get to West 3rd if you walk on the highway briefly (since that red overpass is still out of commission). They have got to connect that area better to the city if the station is ever rebuilt/modernized. Or you can drag you and your suitcase down to the end of the Amtrak platform, then over the gravel for a couple hundred feet to the Waterfront Line station platforms, then up the pedestrian ramp or stairwell to West 3rd. Because....why not? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 19, 20195 yr This is upsetting to say the least.Passenger rail service in Elyria stopped in its trackshttps://elyria.mynews360.com/news/137679/passenger-rail-service-in-elyria-stopped-in-its-tracks/ Edited August 19, 20195 yr by PaxtonMarley
August 19, 20195 yr 4 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said: This is upsetting to say the least.Passenger rail service in Elyria stopped in its trackshttps://elyria.mynews360.com/news/137679/passenger-rail-service-in-elyria-stopped-in-its-tracks/ Time for the county to sell the project to the city of Elyria, which Mayor Brinda apparently supports but the county doesn't since the county commissioner's secretary also has a job as the events coordinator for the railroad station (which also serves as an events center). "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 3, 20195 yr Edited October 3, 20195 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 3, 20195 yr Edited October 3, 20195 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
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