^I'm going to go with oblivious of what the state needs to do

I think (hope?) DeWine is perhaps waiting out the Republican primary to take a stance, to avoid politicizing the issue and allowing a Kasich-style attack on trains to gain traction with Republicans

 

Once he is safely the nominee, making him by far a favorite for reelection, I'm hopeful he will support the expansion

I'm going with "We don't give a damn, but we need to answer politely". 

My recent letter to my two state legislators:

 

I would just like to pass my thoughts along on the subject of transportation and needed policy changes at the state level.  

Let me start by saying this:  As a lifelong Ohio resident, I have had no choice but to drive for 99% of my in-state transportation needs for my entire adult life.  I've averaged at least 20,000 miles per year of driving for the past 28 years (some years more with my record being 58,000).  The result has been this:  less accumulated lifetime wealth because of the need to own multiple cars and buy so much gas over the years (at least the oil companies got rich, though, right?).  It's not just that, though.  I have had a generally higher, chronic stress level from driving; and more recently, a physical condition whereby when I have to drive more than about 20 to 25 minutes without cruise control, I get pain in my right leg that just intensifies the longer I'm behind the wheel (and I know it's the driving because it doesn't happen when I'm a passenger, when I'm sitting most of the day for work, or when I'm a on a plane, train, or bus).  

Ohio's transportation policy since the 1950s has been very Soviet-like, as the State made the decision to generously fund only one form of transportation:  driving.  

Now that I am middle-aged and can see the possibility of retirement on the horizon, I am giving very serious consideration to leaving Ohio when I do retire.  If I don't live somewhere where I have options to the car keys, my ability to stay mobile and independent as I age is going to diminish.  I've already watched it happen to my (now deceased) parents and my in-laws.  I do not want to suffer the same fate.  

Ohio needs to come to grips with the fact that its highway system is over-built.  I've repeatedly watched ODOT pay for expensive highway expansions, only to have the added capacity disappear in a few years.  When the decision is made to overwhelmingly favor one form of transportation, people can't choose to get around any other way.  That creates an endless loop of expensive highway expansions followed by more congestion.  And in a state where the population has been stagnant for more than a half-century, our roads-only transportation system is draining the state's wealth as we have today far more roads and highway lane-miles to maintain on a per capita basis than we did in 1970.  The same goes for water and sewer lines, sidewalks, and other infrastructure.  It's not possible to be fiscally conservative and support only one form of transportation (and the form which also happens to be the most expensive).  

Now that the bipartisan infrastructure bill has passed, and there is a lot of new funding for public transit and intercity passenger rail, I ask that you and your fellow legislators put politics aside and move the state forward by funding more options to driving.  

Thank you for considering my comments. 

Edited April 2, 20223 yr by gildone

Now no one is going to write a letter because they can't compete with what you just wrote! 

 

 

Anyone know if the enabling legislation that created the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission (MIPRC) is federal?

 

The reason I'm asking is that if the  Midwest is to take advantage of the new money for passenger rail development in the infrastructure bill, and since multi-state authorities can be recipients of federal money to implement projects, then MIPRC's charter should be amended to include authority to plan and fund construction and to fund operations.  The proposed corridors radiating out of Chicago overlap with 6 states.  That's a bit of a bear to deal with as there would have to be multiple state agreements in place to build all of the routes.  And, recalcitrant states like Ohio and Indiana and increasingly Missouri can get in the way.  Having a single entity with construction and operations authority, along with the power to work with willing cities on the use of TIFs around station sites to fund construction and operation, would streamline things.

4 hours ago, gildone said:

Anyone know if the enabling legislation that created the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission (MIPRC) is federal?

 

The reason I'm asking is that if the  Midwest is to take advantage of the new money for passenger rail development in the infrastructure bill, and since multi-state authorities can be recipients of federal money to implement projects, then MIPRC's charter should be amended to include authority to plan and fund construction and to fund operations.  The proposed corridors radiating out of Chicago overlap with 6 states.  That's a bit of a bear to deal with as there would have to be multiple state agreements in place to build all of the routes.  And, recalcitrant states like Ohio and Indiana and increasingly Missouri can get in the way.  Having a single entity with construction and operations authority, along with the power to work with willing cities on the use of TIFs around station sites to fund construction and operation, would streamline things.

 

I recall that there were two interstate passenger rail compacts authorized by Congress in the late 1980s or 1990s that affect Ohio. I believe one of these was used by Council of State Governments-Midwest Chapter as an authorizing statue to engage with states. However, the commission's organizing principals and governance were created by mutual agreement among two or more states in 2000. Ohio joined in 2003 (I still have the Legislative Service Commission assessment) thanks to me finding a supportive lawmaker (Republican Jeffrey Armbruster of Lorain). Ohio withdrew from the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Commission in 2011 as Ohio Republicans descended into madness.

 

I tried finding many ways around Ohio's rail opposition. One of them I explored was the MIPRC. Their Executive Director Laura Kliewer told me that, since Ohio is not a member, the MIPRC cannot implement, expand or sustain passenger rail service in Ohio. It was reluctant to even do those things among member states. MIPRC was willing to engage in planning work and even support multi-state capital expenditures such as the design/purchase of rolling stock to be shared among more than one Midwest state. I asked her about the Ohio Association of Regional Councils joining MIPRC (which I spearheaded with NOACA's Grace Gallucci after Ohio withdrew its membership). She said OARC's membership would help in making sure Ohio was part any planning -- like the FRA's Midwest Regional Rail Plan that finally came out last October. But OARC wasn't a full state member. It was a supporting member. Thus MIPRC couldn't engage in seeking capital improvement grants for interstate projects that affected Ohio.

 

 

In short, because of the way the federal passenger rail laws are written, Amtrak cannot initiate new or expanded services or sustain them. Only states or compacts of states can initiate. Ohio isn't going to initiate. And Ohio left the only compact of states that could legally initiate. And even then, MIPRC was reluctant to get too involved. And it certainly wasn't going to do anything for a state that wasn't going to do for itself. There is no way around Ohio's inertness. I knocked on many many many doors (physically, legally, politically and figuratively) from 2010 to last year when Congress blew Ohio's best chance for a legal rescue when it discarded the House's version of the infrastructure program renewal that gave Amtrak the authority to initiate and instead adopted the Senate which sustained the status quo of giving only states the legal authority to initiate. And that's why I'm no longer involved.

I read through the charter.  MIPRC doesn't have the authority to do anything but plan and build support anyway.  Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur's proposal for a Great Lakes Authority would include the authority for land acquisition, construction authority, etc. for transportation projects.  The overall purpose of a GLA would be broader than just transportation, however.  It would include Tennessee Valley-like Authority too.  Kaptur argues that the Great Lakes Region is the only region in the country without such a regional authority.

 

https://www.greatlakesnow.org/2022/03/great-lakes-authority-proposed-ohio-congress-marcy-kaptur/

 

I'd upload the outline of what the GLA would be chartered to do, but .pdf's aren't an allowable option for uploading. 

Edited April 7, 20223 yr by gildone
Change from "commission" to "authority", clarify GLA outline rather than GLA legislation

31 minutes ago, gildone said:

I read through the charter.  MIPRC doesn't have the authority to do anything but plan and build support anyway.  Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur's proposal for a Great Lakes Authority would include the authority for land acquisition, construction authority, etc. for transportation projects.  The overall purpose of a GLA would be broader than just transportation, however.  It would include Tennessee Valley-like Authority too.  Kaptur argues that the Great Lakes Region is the only region in the country without such a regional authority.

 

https://www.greatlakesnow.org/2022/03/great-lakes-authority-proposed-ohio-congress-marcy-kaptur/

 

I'd upload the outline of what the GLA would be chartered to do, but .pdf's aren't an allowable option for uploading. 

 

MIRPC also coordinated the design and purchase of the Midwest rail cars from Siemens. I don't recall if the funding went through them or a state(s).

 

BTW, I love this paragraph from that Great Lakes Authority link....

 

The Challenge
Manufacturing and Job Losses - The United States has closed 91,000 factories and lost 5 million
manufacturing jobs since NAFTA was enacted in 1993 and China joined the World Trade 
Organization in 2000. The 8-state Great Lakes Region lost 1.5 millions of those jobs – that is, 30 
percent. Many of the Region’s people were unable to adapt and have responded with 
addiction, suicide, conspiracy fantasies, and political radicalization.

 

Go to Youngstown-Warren. Some Grade A nutjobs out there.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

Many of the Region’s people were unable to adapt and have responded with 
addiction, suicide, conspiracy fantasies, and political radicalization.

So it sounds like any hope of GOP support is just a glimmer on the horizon?  

2 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

So it sounds like any hope of GOP support is just a glimmer on the horizon?  

 

The only way I could see it happening is if a Brightline-type scenario happened here. The rail/development firm would have to approach the state with a plan, contribute to their campaigns, and get the legislative and administrative assistance they need. Remember, Florida gave back Obama rail money just as Ohio did. Now Florida is supporting specific asks by Brightline including the Orlando airport rail station funding, plus leases of land along Florida Highway 528 as well as along I-4 to Tampa.

I know I'm biased, but the 3C+D corridor seems like a good enough investment for a private firm like Brightline to make it. The rail ROW mostly exists and the combined metros are over 7.3 million people. I get that it's not quite as populated as southern Florida or Texas but it's got a lot of people and a lot fortune 500 businesses. 

 

I just wish that every time people discussed the changes that Intel will bring and all the added population that Intel will bring that anyone brought up rail or transit in general. Now is the time to start this process before it's too late and becomes even more expensive. 

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

So it sounds like any hope of GOP support is just a glimmer on the horizon?  

 

I see a few possibilities:

• Design a new coal fired train
• Hype up how deadly a train would be if were to hit a pedestrian or bicyclist
• Name the trains "Escalade", glue on some rubber tires, and hope they don't notice it's not a giant SUV.

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

So it sounds like any hope of GOP support is just a glimmer on the horizon?  

 

Sometimes I think it would be easier to be elected as a state rep or senator and just get the ball rolling myself.

 

Maybe it would be less of a hurdle to get a law or act on the ballot by petition like how the smoking ban was done.

2 hours ago, ucgrady said:

I know I'm biased, but the 3C+D corridor seems like a good enough investment for a private firm like Brightline to make it. The rail ROW mostly exists and the combined metros are over 7.3 million people. I get that it's not quite as populated as southern Florida or Texas but it's got a lot of people and a lot fortune 500 businesses. 

 

I just wish that every time people discussed the changes that Intel will bring and all the added population that Intel will bring that anyone brought up rail or transit in general. Now is the time to start this process before it's too late and becomes even more expensive. 

 

What worked well in Brightline's favor in Florida is that they owned a significant amount of right of way already. But that's not the case in LA-Vegas route where they're acquiring a bunch of cheap desert land from the federal government and getting a lease along a highway into the LA basin. 3C+D is a tough one unless someone can find some cheap ROW to acquire. I think cheap right of way is a definite possibility for linking Chicago-Toledo-Detroit-Cleveland. By doing so, you get three routes. And Brightline has put this on its to-do list. There's excess public and private rights of way among the the excess trackbeds along the Illinois Central out of Chicago, the South Shore Railroad to South Bend, the Ohio/Indiana Turnpikes, the median of I-275, the four parallel railroad rights of way between Toledo and Detroit, and the NS line through Lakewood into Cleveland Union Terminal.

 

16 minutes ago, RealAdamP said:

 

Sometimes I think it would be easier to be elected as a state rep or senator and just get the ball rolling myself.

 

Maybe it would be less of a hurdle to get a law or act on the ballot by petition like how the smoking ban was done.

 

Hasn't worked for getting rid of gerrymandering. The only way to get rid of Ohio's entrenched legislators is to drag them out, kicking and screaming.

 

1 minute ago, KJP said:

Hasn't worked for getting rid of gerrymandering. The only way to get rid of Ohio's entrenched legislators is to drag them out, kicking and screaming.

 

 

From Ballotpedia:

Quote

Citizens of Ohio may initiate statutes through the process of indirect initiative and constitutional amendments through the process of direct initiative. Once sufficient signatures have been collected, statutory initiatives are first presented to the Ohio General Assembly. If approved by the legislature unamended, the proposed statute becomes law. If not, petitioners must collect an additional round of signatures within ninety days in order to place the statute on the ballot. Proposed amendments proceed directly to a vote of the people. The General Assembly may also propose amendments to the people as legislatively referred constitutional amendments.

So in theory if you get 1,000 signatures for an act/law, get it stated as legal by the AG, then brought to the floor of the GA. If (when) they do vote it down, you have to get another petition for it to go onto the ballot.

 

Which as we've seen from the whole nuclear power plant funding fiasco, as long as you have the money, you could get it on the ballot. Maybe Intel would be able to grease the wheels on something like this.

5 hours ago, RealAdamP said:

 

From Ballotpedia:

So in theory if you get 1,000 signatures for an act/law, get it stated as legal by the AG, then brought to the floor of the GA. If (when) they do vote it down, you have to get another petition for it to go onto the ballot.

 

Which as we've seen from the whole nuclear power plant funding fiasco, as long as you have the money, you could get it on the ballot. Maybe Intel would be able to grease the wheels on something like this.

There are also very specific requirements on the number of signatures per county. It’s a pain, and it would be totally worth it. 

Sadly, I've lost hope for 3C+D unless we get a Brightline-style proposal from the private sector. The rural Republicans who run the statehouse will never support an arrangement with Amtrak.

22 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

Sadly, I've lost hope for 3C+D unless we get a Brightline-style proposal from the private sector. The rural Republicans who run the statehouse will never support an arrangement with Amtrak.

Ending gerrymandering for the General Assembly gives me some hope, but not a lot.

11 hours ago, Dev said:

Ending gerrymandering for the General Assembly gives me some hope, but not a lot.

I wouldn't hold your breath.  

Nothing reinforces "flyover country" better than becoming a rail road-block in the middle of states all investing in high speed.  Ohio's backwood politicians are proud of the flyover status.... 

11 hours ago, Cleburger said:

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Oh I'm definitely not lol

Good to see Ronayne advocating for Amtrak 3C&D

 

 

25 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Good to see Ronayne advocating for Amtrak 3C&D

 

 

 

Just need to get him elected so he has some clout behind his words!

5 hours ago, Luke_S said:

 

Just need to get him elected so he has some clout behind his words!

 

He's the favorite to win

I wish the 3C's + D worked together closer to drum up support for this proposal. I know it's not in their control but it's a great opportunity to work together and push an urban agenda statewide.

3 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

I wish the 3C's + D worked together closer to drum up support for this proposal. I know it's not in their control but it's a great opportunity to work together and push an urban agenda statewide.

 

It could be in their control if they asked the legislature to pass a law that gives them the authority, like a joint-powers authority, to undertake this project and sustain it without the involvement of the state. The law could even shield the state from financial involvement although the state may wish to continue to coordinate multimodal and road projects (such as road-rail grade-separations, access routes to stations, etc) with the cities' joint powers rail authority.

On 4/21/2022 at 11:28 PM, KJP said:

 

It could be in their control if they asked the legislature to pass a law that gives them the authority, like a joint-powers authority, to undertake this project and sustain it without the involvement of the state. The law could even shield the state from financial involvement although the state may wish to continue to coordinate multimodal and road projects (such as road-rail grade-separations, access routes to stations, etc) with the cities' joint powers rail authority.

 

Great idea. Why don't we push for this?

13 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

Great idea. Why don't we push for this?

 

It's already being considered.

Will Ohio ‘Raise its Hand’ for Amtrak Funding or Let Other States Jump the Line?

 

At the end of this week, the Federal Railroad Administration is expected to release guidelines laying out the process it will use to distribute new funding to expand and improve the nation’s passenger rail network.

 

After that happens, all eyes will be on Governor Mike DeWine’s administration – will Ohio join the long list of states that are actively working to bolster existing Amtrak service and build out new lines, or will DeWine follow in the footsteps of his predecessor, John Kasich, who turned down $400 million in federal rail money at the beginning of his term in 2010?

 

Derrick James, Senior Government Affairs Officer at Amtrak, emphasized to a group of transit advocates last month that the next step for the state is really just an expression of interest, not a commitment to support any specific program, either financially or otherwise.

 

“What we need the state to do is to raise its hand in mid-May when the federal government says, ‘who wants to participate in this rail program that is now funded at $66 billion for five years?,'” he said, speaking on a panel organized as part of the Moving Ohio Forward conference. “We need Ohio to step up to the plate and say, ‘yes, we are interested in looking at it.'”

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/will-ohio-raise-its-hand-for-amtrak-funding-or-let-other-states-jump-the-line-bw1/

 

Email from AAO:

Good afternoon All Aboard Ohio Supporters:
 

Please join us for a special combined AAO Chapter meeting this Saturday, May 14th at 10:00 a.m. 

  

This month we are bringing our AAO Chapters together for a meeting of the minds! We will be discussing our recent efforts in support of expanded Amtrak service for Ohio and strategizing our next steps, including the planning of an "informational picket" at the OhioStatehouse. We will also hear the latest Amtrak news and developments. This is a great opportunity to bring all of the ideas, energy, and activism to the table and to join efforts to advocate for passenger rail expansion within our state. Anyone is welcome, regardless of location. Please see below for ways to join.

CENTRAL OHIO: IN PERSON! Grandview Heights Public Public Library, Conference Room B (1685 W. First Ave, Columbus, OH). No RSVP is necessary. 

CLEVELAND: ZOOM CALL! Cleveland will be joining the Columbus group via Zoom. See below for the link and log-in information.

CINCINNATI: ZOOM CALL! Do you want an AAO Chapter in Cincinnati? Please join our Columbus and Cleveland AAO Chapters via Zoom to see what it's all about AND respond to this email indicating your interest in forming a chapter in your area. 
 
Topic: AAO Combined Chapter Meeting
Time: May 14, 2022 10:00 AM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

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Gov. Mike DeWine asks state agency to explore Amtrak expansion, including new Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati route

Published: May. 13, 2022, 3:32 p.m.

By Susan Glaser, cleveland.com

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio – For the first time since Amtrak proposed a major expansion of passenger rail service in Ohio more than a year ago, Gov. Mike DeWine has expressed interest in learning more about the plan.

 

The governor’s spokesman, Dan Tierney, released a statement this week saying DeWine has asked the Ohio Rail Development Commission, which is part of the state Department of Transportation, to work with Amtrak “to determine the feasibility and cost” of several routes identified by Amtrak in a massive expansion proposal.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2022/05/gov-mike-dewine-asks-state-agency-to-explore-amtrak-expansion-including-new-cleveland-columbus-dayton-cincinnati-route.html

Good initial step I suppose, but I won't hold my breath on the outcome of their "feasibility study".

Edited May 14, 20223 yr by Mendo

11 minutes ago, Mendo said:

Good initial step I suppose, but I won't hold my breathe on the outcome of their "feasibility study".

 

Reasonable, but I'm surprised they even took this step. 

I got the chance to meet a couple of aides from the statehouse recently at an event, and this is actually worthwhile news. As any good Ohio passenger rail supporter knows (this is UO, raise your hands folks) DeWine not only supported, but sponsored S.1516 in 2005, the passenger rail investment act. Republicans may not be famous for loving trains anymore, but DeWine certainly doesn't hate them, and he recognizes that states with more transportation options are attracting young people. On top of that, the rumor around town is that Intel has encouraged Columbus lawmakers to pursue Amtrak funding because a lot of their employees utilize the services, especially those near their Hudson, Mass. research office and in Santa Clara. The Lakeshore runs clear from Boston (Worcester & Framingham, nearest Hudson) to Cleveland, and if a line could be set up to Columbus, Intel would have an almost perfect train line between those offices for employees who prefer to take the train on work trips and can maintain productivity. 

Now, I take all good rumors with a grain of salt given our history here, but there is certainly a toe in the water this proposal. 

Cross posted in the random Cleveland developments thread

 

 

NOACA seeks Cleveland Amtrak hub

By Ken Prendergast / May 13, 2022

 

The director of the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA), a metropolitan planning organization, today said she intends to submit to the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) multiple proposed passenger rail routes through Cleveland for inclusion in the Biden Administration’s multi-billion-dollar rail development program. There was a new FRA program announced today to which NOACA pledged to submit Cleveland-based routes for consideration.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/05/13/noaca-seeks-cleveland-amtrak-hub/

Would the fed take a submission seriously with it being such a local request? I would assume the state government would hold the most weight here, but I'm not counting on Ohio to even try.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

8 hours ago, Vendeta said:

Would the fed take a submission seriously with it being such a local request? I would assume the state government would hold the most weight here, but I'm not counting on Ohio to even try.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
 

 

Ken gave a response to this in another thread:

 

9 hours ago, w28th said:

This sounds like wonderful news. Question: if the state decides not to invest their portion is this a non-starter much like the Kasich BS?

 

9 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Depends. If NOACA and its partners advance the design for Cleveland-Chicago to shovel-ready status and the state of Illinois submits the construction funding application to the FRA along with pledged shares of operating funds from each partner, then there's a passenger rail project. Ditto for Cleveland-Detroit with MiDOT, Cleveland-Pittsburgh with PennDOT and Cleveland-Buffalo with NYSDOT. 3C+D is a lot tougher since it's entirely within Ohio.

 

9 hours ago, Luke_S said:

 

Was there any indication of where the Cleveland station would be? 

 

And does this news give you any more optimism that Ohio might take a step forward on passenger rail? 

 

8 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I think the lead illustration should give the indication regarding station location, unless Bedrock has an ace up its sleeve and hasn't played it yet.

 

It gives me hope, but I can't get to optimism yet. It's great to have NOACA pushing for this, but I'd rather have DeWine, ODOT and the general assembly doing the honors. The federal law is written specifically for states to initiate passenger rail developments. You have to play some games with the rules to get NOACA's approach and funding contributions accepted by the FRA. NOACA's leadership improves the odds somewhat. If DeWine/ODOT/legislature were leading this and pledging real money, it puts the odds in slam dunk territory.

 

9 hours ago, Vendeta said:

Would the fed take a submission seriously with it being such a local request? I would assume the state government would hold the most weight here, but I'm not counting on Ohio to even try.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
 

 

MPOs are an eligible applicant. But you're right that the state would be more influential unless the MPO was acting in partnership with other MPOs and preferably a willing state. That's the case with the Cleveland-Chicago CRISI grant application. If the FRA awards that grant, it will be tantamount to a federal endorsement of NOACA's end run around Ohio's state government.

I have not posted here in some time, but make no mistake about it, what is happening at NOACA and with the DeWine Administration could represent a tectonic shift. Add to that Amtrak's desire to create a Cleveland mini-hub and interest from places like Buffalo and Erie and things might change radically. After years in the doldrums, this appears to be the best chance for the region to move ahead on passenger rail. I am more optimistic than I've been in years but all of us need to do whatever we can to push this along, especially contacting your federal and state legislators. They need to hear from us.

Edited May 15, 20223 yr by neony

Amtrak has noticed 

 

@KJP

Still any chance Terminal Tower can be used instead of the lakefront?

20 minutes ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

@KJP

Still any chance Terminal Tower can be used instead of the lakefront?

In my opinion, it would be extremely expensive to route trains into the Terminal Tower and have that facility serving regular passenger trains again.  It would be far better served to put some of that money into a new and better Amtrak Lakefront station.  I know that per the Amtrak Connects US map for Ohio, the connection from the lakefront line to the southeast already exists.  All of the other connections are already in place.  Yes, it would be nice to see passenger trains return to the Terminal Tower, but it probably isn't financially feasible.

Edited May 16, 20223 yr by LifeLongClevelander

3 hours ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

@KJP

Still any chance Terminal Tower can be used instead of the lakefront?

 

Only if Bedrock says they want it and puts a lot of pressure on the city, county and state to say they want it and are willing put up a significant share of the dollars (10-20%) to help make it happen.

 

3 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

In my opinion, it would be extremely expensive to route trains into the Terminal Tower and have that facility serving regular passenger trains again.  It would be far better served to put some of that money into a new and better Amtrak Lakefront station.  I know that per the Amtrak Connects US map for Ohio, the connection from the lakefront line to the southeast already exists.  All of the other connections are already in place.  Yes, it would be nice to see passenger trains return to the Terminal Tower, but it probably isn't financially feasible.

 

To me, the only way Amtrak to Tower City makes financial sense is if everyone (city, state, feds, Amtrak) are financially committed to making Cleveland a mini-hub for Amtrak. That means 20-24 Amtrak trains a day + a half-dozen CVSR trains. You can't easily evolve up to that level at Tower City/CUT. Some of the growth would have to be at the current lakefront Amtrak station before shifting over to Tower City/CUT with the addition of many more trains.

 

But here's something that's being overlooked. This is how many daily passenger trains are proposed to be added to existing freight tracks, used by 70+ freight trains per day....

 

4 = existing Amtrak service through city (all 4 to/from Chicago via Berea, 2 to/from Buffalo, 2 to/from Pittsburgh)

6 = existing CVSR service to be extended to downtown or new shuttle service to connect with existing trains (6 via Valley Line to Akron)

6 = 3C+D Amtrak service (all 6 to/from Cincinnati via Berea)

6 = CLE-TOL-DET Amtrak service (all 6 to/from Detroit via Berea)

4 = CLE-TOL-CHI Amtrak service (all 4 to/from Chicago via Berea) [NOACA proposal]

2 = Keystone Amtrak train extension (both to/from New York City via Pittsburgh via Hudson)

2 = Empire Amtrak train extension (both to/from New York City via Buffalo via Mentor)

 

Note that 20 of these proposed trains are proposed to travel between Cleveland and Berea, which is a very busy route. This will likely require a double-track, passenger-only tracks and a third main track along NS from Berea to Toledo. There was a third track over much of the Berea-Toledo route. But to add two tracks to Berea-Cleveland will require constructing new right of way with significant property acquisition, demolition, earth-moving and bridge work along the NS main line which parallels the Red Line. That may include a second lift bridge over the Cuyahoga River. Check it out on a satellite view and try to imagine two passenger-only tracks added from downtown to Berea.

 

Along the old CUT right of way, there is space to add tracks out of downtown, including a long stretch of mostly unused right of way owned by an affiliate of the Flats Industrial RR SW of downtown to a location near West 91st Street and Maywood Avenue. While no parallel ROW parcel southwest of that, there is room to add two passenger-only tracks to a railroad location called CP Short. It's right next to the soon-to-be-relocated Cleveland MedVet West (14000 Keystone Pkwy, Brook Park). Even though the CSX ROW is constrained from here to Berea, it's not as bad as the NS line which is squeezed by the Berea Freeway and yard leads to NS's Rockport Yard. 

 

Of course, we might prefer to relocate NS freight trains off the downtown lakefront to open up NS tracks to passenger service. Assuming NS is willing, that's a $200 million to $300 million effort to provide the added tracks (much of which would be along old CUT rights of way) and replace NS's two-track steel bridge below the Inner Belt with a three-track bridge. The latter was suggested by a transportation engineer during a peer review of the Lakefront Bypass study I did 20 years ago for the Cleveland Waterfront Coalition. So if we have to move the freight trains off the lakefront to a bypass that includes lots of former CUT right of way, maybe we should compare and contrast the costs and benefits of building the lakefront bypass/lakefront multi-modal transportation center with restoring Tower City as CUT?

1 hour ago, KJP said:

To me, the only way Amtrak to Tower City makes financial sense is if everyone (city, state, feds, Amtrak) are financially committed to making Cleveland a mini-hub for Amtrak. That means 20-24 Amtrak trains a day + a half-dozen CVSR trains. You can't easily evolve up to that level at Tower City/CUT. Some of the growth would have to be at the current lakefront Amtrak station before shifting over to Tower City/CUT with the addition of many more trains.

 

But here's something that's being overlooked. This is how many daily passenger trains are proposed to be added to existing freight tracks, used by 70+ freight trains per day....

 

4 = existing Amtrak service through city (all 4 to/from Chicago via Berea, 2 to/from Buffalo, 2 to/from Pittsburgh)

6 = existing CVSR service to be extended to downtown or new shuttle service to connect with existing trains (6 via Valley Line to Akron)

6 = 3C+D Amtrak service (all 6 to/from Cincinnati via Berea)

6 = CLE-TOL-DET Amtrak service (all 6 to/from Detroit via Berea)

4 = CLE-TOL-CHI Amtrak service (all 4 to/from Chicago via Berea) [NOACA proposal]

2 = Keystone Amtrak train extension (both to/from New York City via Pittsburgh via Hudson)

2 = Empire Amtrak train extension (both to/from New York City via Buffalo via Mentor)

 

Note that 20 of these proposed trains are proposed to travel between Cleveland and Berea, which is a very busy route. This will likely require a double-track, passenger-only tracks and a third main track along NS from Berea to Toledo. There was a third track over much of the Berea-Toledo route. But to add two tracks to Berea-Cleveland will require constructing new right of way with significant property acquisition, demolition, earth-moving and bridge work along the NS main line which parallels the Red Line. That may include a second lift bridge over the Cuyahoga River. Check it out on a satellite view and try to imagine two passenger-only tracks added from downtown to Berea.

 

Along the old CUT right of way, there is space to add tracks out of downtown, including a long stretch of mostly unused right of way owned by an affiliate of the Flats Industrial RR SW of downtown to a location near West 91st Street and Maywood Avenue. While no parallel ROW parcel southwest of that, there is room to add two passenger-only tracks to a railroad location called CP Short. It's right next to the soon-to-be-relocated Cleveland MedVet West (14000 Keystone Pkwy, Brook Park). Even though the CSX ROW is constrained from here to Berea, it's not as bad as the NS line which is squeezed by the Berea Freeway and yard leads to NS's Rockport Yard. 

 

Of course, we might prefer to relocate NS freight trains off the downtown lakefront to open up NS tracks to passenger service. Assuming NS is willing, that's a $200 million to $300 million effort to provide the added tracks (much of which would be along old CUT rights of way) and replace NS's two-track steel bridge below the Inner Belt with a three-track bridge. The latter was suggested by a transportation engineer during a peer review of the Lakefront Bypass study I did 20 years ago for the Cleveland Waterfront Coalition. So if we have to move the freight trains off the lakefront to a bypass that includes lots of former CUT right of way, maybe we should compare and contrast the costs and benefits of building the lakefront bypass/lakefront multi-modal transportation center with restoring Tower City as CUT?

One thing that sometimes gets overlooked is between West 6th and West 9th, that was the site of Cleveland's Civil War-era passenger station.  Even after the Terminal Tower opened, not all trains used the new as a passenger station.  I would like to see extra space at the Tower City platform level used for potential RTA rail system expansion.

Edited May 17, 20223 yr by LifeLongClevelander

State’s Actions a Positive Sign for Passenger Rail Expansion, Advocates Say

 

With very little fanfare, the State of Ohio has officially “raised its hand” to express interest in expanding passenger rail in Ohio.

 

Although still falling far short of a statement of support, comments released last week by Governor Mike DeWine’s office – followed by actual communication between state officials at the Ohio Rail Development Commission and Amtrak – are enough to keep the ball rolling on plans to establish service along the 3C+D corridor (linking Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland), and to improve service elsewhere in the state.

 

Stu Nicholson, Executive Director of the pro-train advocacy group All Aboard Ohio, said that Amtrak officials have confirmed to him that the necessary collaboration is happening and that the next step is to produce a more detailed report looking at both construction and operation costs.

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/states-actions-a-positive-sign-for-passenger-rail-expansion-advocates-say-bw1/

 

If DeWine defeats Whaley, I wonder if we'll ever hear of "passenger rail" uttered by this governor again?

KJP quite correct to point out that a station (either at Tower City or at the Lakefront) is really just the tip of the iceberg when we are talking about 20 trains per day or more. Really, we need a full blown alternatives analysis to decide which location makes the most sense. Either location will incur substantial costs, but that's what happens when we lose infrastructure and then want to rebuild it.

With 20 trains or more per day, I'm guessing there could be 2 or more trains arriving at about the same time.  I assume the lakefront can only handle 1 train at a time currently.  Is that a potential problem for a lakefront station and would Tower City be better suited to handle that?

 

Edited May 19, 20223 yr by LibertyBlvd

Right. The Lakefront station can only handle one train at a time currently, but there is room for at least three tracks and platforms. Tower City has room for tracks, but getting in there is going to be more of an issue than at the Lakefront location.

 

There is also room to service trains near the Lakefront station at the dormant E 26th St yard, which is right above the Inner Belt just south of Dead man's Curve. I don't know where trains would be serviced at Tower City. Maybe KJP has some ideas.

Edited May 19, 20223 yr by neony