Make no mistake.  This is about making sure Biden (whether anyone likes him or not) doesn't get any wins and listening to the road lobby and  the gas station and convenience store lobby and whomever else is donating to their campaigns.  Passenger trains don't have a wealthy constituency doling out campaign donations.  

On 5/19/2022 at 1:20 PM, TH3BUDDHA said:

How will somebody in Appalachian Ohio in the south east part of the state benefit from a 3C route?  

 

The percentage of Ohioans that will use this route will be so low that this comment is laughable.  This is coming from somebody that really wants rail in Ohio.  But, come on.  As essential as roads or water?  It would take 100 years to build the rail infrastructure to match the road service we have.

How did the rest of Ohio benefit from the half-billion dollars spent on the Nelsonville bypass?  

 

Regarding yor second comment:  Had your logic prevailed  100 years ago, we would have never built highways.  

 

On 5/28/2022 at 11:53 AM, TotalTransit said:

I love Ohio because it’s one of the few states with true urbanism left. It’s entrenched history with building urban environments is some of the most in the us.


It’s why I moved from the sprawl that is Florida.


I hope one day we can overcome its political deficits.

I am in the exact same boat. Just came back from Florida and i don't miss it at all. 

 

Though it would not surprise me if this fails. These people are too close minded to see how other cities, states, and countries are successfully using trains as the foundation of their transit system. Not cars. 

On 5/27/2022 at 10:24 PM, KJP said:

 

You mean with state initiative. Federal law requires state initiative because the Senate version of the infrastructure won out. The House version gave Amtrak the authority to take the initiative. Had the House version won out, I wouldn't have resigned from All Aboard Ohio.

 

Yes, exactly. You said it better than me.

Hmm, maybe this helps? (Although multiple per day Lake Shore Limiteds would be WAY more useful than any  of these.)

 

Just saw this on NOACA's home page. I haven't seen this shared anywhere else. If only NOACA was a state government (its region used to be a state not named Ohio), then it would be taken more seriously by the FRA as having the financial wherewithal to sponsor passenger rail...

 

https://www.noaca.org/Home/Components/News/News/13017/32?backlist=%2fhome

 

News
NOACA Supports Amtrak’s “Connects Us” Plan to Improve Passenger Rail Service in Ohio along with Expansion Services
Post Date:05/26/2022 12:00 PM

Amtrak proposed a major expansion of passenger rail service in Ohio more than a year ago, and has recently introduced its “Connects Us” Plan that will determine feasibility and costs for passenger rail services in Ohio.

 

The “Connects Us” Plan proposes Amtrak’s vision for expansion over the next 15 years to connect up to 160 communities throughout the United States by building new or improved rail corridors in more than 25 states.

 

Rail connectivity has been shown to help rejuvenate the economies, livability, and tourism and recreation potential for smaller and rural communities.  As a region that covers urban, suburban, and rural areas, NOACA believes that passenger rail can play an extremely important role in connecting communities of all sizes throughout our region, state, and nation. Northeast Ohio's rural communities in Geauga, Lake, Lorain, and Medina counties will see tangible benefits from expanded passenger rail connections throughout the state.

 

NOACA applauds Ohio Governor Mike DeWine on his recent request to the Ohio Rail Development Commission (ORDC) to engage with Amtrak to determine feasibility and costs for improved and expanded passenger rail service in Ohio.

 

This support is significant in light of the Federal Railroad Administration's (FRA's) new Corridor Identification and Development (Corridor ID) program—unveiled on May 13, 2022, to better connect communities throughout the nation with enhanced intercity passenger rail service. This program was authorized in the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (IIJA), which provides an unprecedented $66 billion for passenger rail. Specifically the Corridor ID program will create a pipeline of passenger rail projects to guide future federal grant funding.

 

To initiate Ohio's discussions with the FRA, NOACA requests that Ohio express interest in exploring feasibility and costs for improved service on the following existing corridors, as proposed in Amtrak's "Connects US" plan, including:

•           The Cleveland-Elyria-Sandusky-Toledo-Chicago corridor

•           The Cleveland-Buffalo-Rochester-NYC corridor

•           The Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Philadelphia-NYC corridor

•           The Cleveland-Washington, D.C. corridor

•           The Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit corridor

 

Also, NOACA requests that Ohio express interest in exploring new service on Amtrak's proposed 3C+D Corridor, connecting Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati and Dayton.

Amtrak will evaluate these options over the next few months.

 

By offering Ohioans multimodal options for travel, improved and expanded passenger rail service will reduce harmful auto emissions that degrade air quality, harm public health, and increase healthcare spending. Transportation emissions constitute approximately 30% of Ohio's total climate emissions inventory. By providing choices that reduce vehicle miles traveled, rail travel can improve Ohio's sustainability profile—an important factor in attracting new residents, business investments, and jobs.

 

NOACA will work collectively with the State of Ohio, Ohio Department of Transportation (ODOT), and other metropolitan planning organization regionally to work with the FRA and seek the funding necessary to fulfill Amtrak's "Connects US" plan in Ohio.

 

###

7 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Hmm, maybe this helps? (Although multiple per day Lake Shore Limiteds would be WAY more useful than any  of these.)

 

 

I like that 3 Rivers line. Would like it more if we could adjust the Capitol Limited line to run through Youngstown and Akron too. 

From the Amtrak cuts in 2003-05, no state lost more train-miles of service than Ohio. Not only did we lose the Three Rivers, we also lost the Pennsylvanian west of Pittsburgh.

 

The Pennsylvanian extension west of Pittsburgh in 1998 was my baby. I had pushed for it for 10 years, getting cities between Cleveland and Pittsburgh to advocate for it. We assumed we would have to get state operating subsidies to make it happen. Ohio, of course, was unwilling to pay. I was about to give up on the idea. But when Amtrak decided to go hot and heavy for package express business, that was our opportunity to get the extension.

 

Unfortunately, the combination of Amtrak's incompetence in marketing the service, making PHL the eastern terminus (not NYC), a bad schedule and the freight train traffic meltdown for more than a year after the 1999 split of Conrail among NS & CSX gave the train a reputation of being completely unreliable (at least among the few who knew of its existence). 

 

I was so furious at Amtrak's mismanagement of my baby that I refused to ride Amtrak. I did ride trains in Europe in the late 2000s and a friend finally convinced me to get back on an Amtrak train from Chicago to Cleveland after a roughly 10-year hiatus. He had to pay for my ticket to do so!

Here's a list of trains we have lost in Ohio::

 

1. National Limited - New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Columbus-Dayton-Indianapolis-St Louis-Kansas City

2. Broadway Limited - New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Canton-Lima-Ft Wayne-Chicago (later rerouted via Youngstown and Akron)

3. Shenandoah - Washington-Cumberland-Parkersburg-Athens-Chillicothe-Cincinnati

4. Mountaineer - Norfolk-Lynchburg-Catlettsburg (thru cars to Chicago handled in the Cardinal)

5. Pennsylvanian - Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago

6. The Lake Cities - Toledo-Detroit connection to/from Lake Shore Limited

7. Three Rivers - Intended to replace the discontinued Broadway Limited after Amtrak realized that it needed more than just the Lake Shore to New York from Chicago, this train was mostly mail and express, with two or three coaches, a cafe-lounge and a sleeper. The train was dumped when Amtrak folded its M&E business. It's route was New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Akron-Chicago.

 

Most of these trains were well patronized, except for the Shenandoah, Mountaineer and the Pennsylvanian. KJP explained why the latter train did poorly and I can add that Amtrak expected All Aboard Ohio to advertise it. AAO did not have the resources for that. It was about this time that some dimbulb manager at Amtrak decided to paint a sign on the roof of the Cleveland station instead of putting up a new sign along the Shoreway. His reasoning was that it would be seen by the Goodyear blimp as it hovered over Browns football games!

 

In addition the Cardinal (New York-Washington-Charleston-Cincinnati-Chicago was temporarily discontinued, but returned as a triweekly only train. This train, along with the daily Lake Shore Limited and the Capitol Limited operate thru Ohio at night, leaving the state with no daytime service.

 

Amtrak also proposed to run the Skyline Connection as a part of its mail & express business along with passengers. It was even in their timetable, but it never ran. Its route would have been New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago and it would have served Ohio points in daylight hours.

 

So, of 10 trains that directly served Ohio, we are now down to three and one of those only runs three days per week. All run at night. True, two of these were lightly used, but imagine what things would be like if we had the remaining eight??

 

 

Edited June 1, 20223 yr by neony

It should also be noted that when the National Limited stopped running through Columbus in Dayton in 1979, two states picked up the slack starting the following year. Neither of them was Ohio. The state of Pennsylvania in 1980 began the the New York City to Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian and the state of Missouri funded an extension of the Ann Rutledge service from St. Louis to Kansas City to cover that portion of the National Limited's discontinued route.

 

While not Ohio, the big turnaround following the 1979 budget cutbacks was in California. Amtrak cut the poorly performing Oakland to Bakersfield San Joaquin. The state of California took over the route's financing, marketing and bus connections with Amtrak providing the trains and crews. It was a huge success. One train each way per day eventually grew into 6 roundtrips per day.

 

On 6/8/2022 at 8:33 AM, KJP said:

It should also be noted that when the National Limited stopped running through Columbus in Dayton in 1979, two states picked up the slack starting the following year. Neither of them was Ohio. The state of Pennsylvania in 1980 began the the New York City to Pittsburgh Pennsylvanian and the state of Missouri funded an extension of the Ann Rutledge service from St. Louis to Kansas City to cover that portion of the National Limited's discontinued route.

 

While not Ohio, the big turnaround following the 1979 budget cutbacks was in California. Amtrak cut the poorly performing Oakland to Bakersfield San Joaquin. The state of California took over the route's financing, marketing and bus connections with Amtrak providing the trains and crews. It was a huge success. One train each way per day eventually grew into 6 roundtrips per day.

I think it was about this time that the Indianapolis-Chicago Hoosier State started operating as well. This was partially to ferry equipment to and from Amtrak's Beech Grove maintenance facility just outside of Indianapolis and I believe the train was 100% federally funded. The Cardinal bypassed Indy on another route at the time.

 

In 1979 Indianapolis lost the New York-Kansas City National Limited AND the Chicago-Tampa/Miami Floridian. These two trains were really the dogs of Amtrak's long distance offerings, with poor equipment and endless problems with bad track in Indiana.

Edited June 9, 20223 yr by neony

Hey @neony @gildone @KJP or anyone else with the history - can any of you point us to source material on the effort to establish proper high speed rail in Ohio back in the 60s/70s? My understanding is that some US Representative from Toledo aggressively pushed for HSR similar to what was being implemented in France from Paris to Lyon. There was a statewide ballot initiative that lost (badly, I think). Some of the old school rail fans of the day actually came out against. (Facepalm.) This is the extent of what I know, mostly from side comments on this forum. I’m hoping to read a more in depth article or more complete telling of this story. 
 

It’s so sad to think about where this state could be if we had made that investment. I think it would have had an Ohio & Erie Canal level of impact.

The person you're thinking of is Arthur Wilkowski, who infamously said that we will build high speed rail on the ashes of Amtrak. That kind of comment is why we don't have anything, because no high speed rail has ever been built without a successful conventional rail precedent.  While All Aboard Ohio's predecessor, the Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers, supported the 1982 sales tax increase to build an $11 billion high-speed rail system,  it wasn't going to pass because Ohioans simply didn't have any experience, certainly not a positive experience, with passenger rail given the prior 30 years of decline.

 

Developing conventional rail service first not only builds up ridership, demand for local transit connections and supportive development near stations in urban cores, it also creates a political constituency for more, better, faster service. The sales tax increase failed by a 2 to 1 margin and taught Ohio lawmakers to never support passenger rail -- any form of passenger rail -- because they believed that Ohioans were against it.

 

So when the high speed rail-only folks pushed to rekindle their efforts in the late 80s while we were pushing for a measly $10 million to start 3C (that's all it needed back then), OARP came out against it. Instead we argued for a merger of the Ohio High Speed Rail Authority and the and the ODOT Rail Division into the Ohio Rail Development Commission. That happened in 1994. It was originally funded, as we requested, by earmarking the state's corporate franchise tax on railroads. That was supposed to generate $12 million a year and be more than enough to support the development of passenger rail in Ohio.

 

Unfortunately the freight railroads got the corporate franchise tax rescinded, meaning that ORDC would be reliant on general fund revenues and only a few million dollars per year at that. Ohio has never had enough money to do passenger rail development and I don't think it ever will. Ohioans have no idea what a passenger train is, most never even think of it or even care, and as long as they never see one, the state will never come up with the money to fund any level of service. Out of sight. Out of mind.

I can echo KJP's comments. The bullet train high speed rail system came with an unpalatable high price tag and we knew it, even tho we endorsed the 1982 sales tax issue. Its colossal failure was one reason why any sort of rail passenger initiative was not going to be looked at favorably and it poisoned the well for years. Keep in mind the economic climate at that time. It wasn't good and the public was not going to support a costly abstract idea they had never experienced either. To ask the public to support an increase to the sales tax was a real stretch.

 

Incidentally, $11 billion in 1982 dollars is worth about $33 billion today. By contrast, Brightline's Miami-Orlando line is projected to cost about $3 billion.

 

In addition, many of those pushing HSR viewed the incremental development of conventional service as a fly at their picnic. Indeed, some did not want rail in any form, calling for maglev instead. I recall being at a meeting of the high speed rail commission when one commissioner said we should "forgo 19th century rail technology and avail ourselves of the latest technological advances". In any event, they took a dim view of anything other than true HSR.

 

Invariably, these studies went nowhere (KJP and I still have copies) and no service was started in the meantime. Finally, things came to a head (I think it was in 1992) when an $800 million HSR test track was proposed between Columbus and Dayton, a sum which could have built the entire 3C Corridor and more at the time. This was finally too much for us. We ended up going public in opposition and that was enough to kill the idea.

 

During the 1975-1992 period, several studies were produced, all calling for very high speed service and, again with a very high price tag. As a result, we spent years spinning our wheels and we STILL do not have real service. Some may call us "old school railfans" but history has proven us correct. We would have had service decades ago if others had listened. Those who advocated a "big bang" approach made it impossible to achieve progress. It is they who were the impediment, not us.

 

Ohio should have service along the Brightline model: 110-125 mph, frequent and modern. Air service is mostly a non-factor in the 3C Corridor and that means the real competitor is the auto. Beat the drive time and rail service would be very competitive and affordable. I'm talking about an endpoint to endpoint running time of about three hours.

 

Footnote: Art Wilkowski was a state Representative from Toledo, not a US Congressman.

Edited June 13, 20223 yr by neony

Thank you - this is helpful in understanding the history of these efforts. 

I might add there was usually money for studies to satisfy a couple of legislators, but never for a serious effort to actually do anything. Officials who got out of line by promoting real rail passenger services were sacked or threatened. I saw this myself. As for us, we were continually dismissed by the powers that be. Even consumer representation on the various commissions were filled by political hacks, while we were passed over.

 

The only governor who supported passenger rail was Ted Strickland and even here, the state had no skin in the game. All of the money was to have come from a federal grant for $400 million, which was returned by Kasich in 2010. It's a sordid history.

 

However, I would be remiss to leave out the parochial, fusty do-nothing attitude on the part of too many in Ohio. This is a big reason why there has been little progress.

Edited June 13, 20223 yr by neony

I'll never forget when, in about 1995-96, the Ohio Rail Development Commission was about to vote on requesting from the State Capital Budget $60 million to fund the start-up of 3C, extension of Amtrak's Pennsylvanian from Pittsburgh to Cleveland and the development of two weekday commuter trains each weekday Cleveland-Cuyahoga Falls (getting into downtown Akron required a lot more money). I remember being so excited that we might finally get somewhere.

 

At the ORDC meeting where their vote was to happen, Gov. George Voinovich's Chief of Staff Paul Misfud showed up and berated the ORDC's director, staff and commissioners for even thinking about making such a request of state funds. "Passenger trains? Passenger trains?? Are you people in outer space?" yelled Misfud.

 

Talk about bad timing. Misfud resigned in 1996. The reason? He was charged with tampering with evidence, forgery and three counts of tampering with records, all felonies. He also was charged with misdemeanor offenses of obstructing official business, petty theft and violating Ohio ethics law. Under the original charges, Mifsud could have served up to 11 years in prison. Instead he pleaded to two lesser charges and served only three days in jail. He died in 2000 from cancer.

Enjoy a time-lapse from my hotel room in Cologne the other day.   What Ohio rail could be like with our cities so close, and also connecting us with Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc....    My friend that lives there says the government offered a monthly pass to jump start travel post covid.  For €9 he can take any train any time, any day, anywhere in the country.   Sigh. 

 

 

From Canton dev thread:

 

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

Now for Akron to run a rail line down to CAK

 

SARTA to hold public meetings on streetcar proposal

 

The Repository

 

"CANTON – The Stark Area Regional Transit Authority will hold public meetings Wednesday and Thursday to discuss a proposed streetcar project connecting downtown Canton, Pro Football Hall of Fame and Hall of Fame Village, Belden Village area, and the Akron-Canton Airport."

 

https://www.cantonrep.com/story/news/2022/06/14/sarta-holds-public-meetings-proposed-streetcar-project/7620922001/

“Streetcar” is the wrong infrastructure for this. It should be the first phase of Canton-Akron-Cleveland regional rail. I don’t think a streetcar would have an appropriate top speed for this future use. I’d much rather see them use DMU Diesel Multiple Units or EMU Electric Multiple Units - a heavy rail infrastructure with a higher top speed and much greater capacity. Ideally just start with the EMU, even though it increases capital cost. That would add the benefit of faster acceleration in addition to higher top speed. 

 

For comparison, Boston MBTA just made this mistake with the Green Line Extension (GLX) into Somerville. The Green Line is light rail (through downtown it is in a subway). They extended it along grade-separated commuter rail tracks. What they should have done instead was upgraded the existing two track non-electrified commuter rail to four track electrified regional rail, with local and express tracks both directions. The local would stop at the same places as GLX. But the express would provide better (faster, more frequent) service, upgrading the Lowell line to regional rail quality. This would also provide a solid foundation for future regional service by extending from Lowell on to Nashua, Manchester, and Concord NH. And the local in Somerville would have had much higher capacity than GLX , with better potential for extending high frequency  local services into Medford, Winchester, and Woburn. Also would have created a much more complementary infrastructure if they are ever able to get the North-South rail link project implemented. 
 

And I’ll add that Boston GLX light rail probably has higher capacity and faster speeds than any “streetcar” level infrastructure. 
 

I think it’s really important that this gets done in a way that is a first phase to a better transit system rather than a one-off, stand-alone, no chance for expansion project. 

^ Yes any rail connection between Cleveland, Akron and Canton would have to be heavy rail. Light rail is perfectly suited for inner city rail. 

 

All of us rail lovers would salivate over connecting American cities like they do in Europe but unfortunately l don't think we'll ever come close. Americans are a very different people culturally. We prefer not to share our space with strangers and we love the freedom cars provide. That makes rail problematic.

12 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

From Canton dev thread:

 

“Streetcar” is the wrong infrastructure for this. It should be the first phase of Canton-Akron-Cleveland regional rail. I don’t think a streetcar would have an appropriate top speed for this future use. I’d much rather see them use DMU Diesel Multiple Units or EMU Electric Multiple Units - a heavy rail infrastructure with a higher top speed and much greater capacity. Ideally just start with the EMU, even though it increases capital cost. That would add the benefit of faster acceleration in addition to higher top speed. 

 

For comparison, Boston MBTA just made this mistake with the Green Line Extension (GLX) into Somerville. The Green Line is light rail (through downtown it is in a subway). They extended it along grade-separated commuter rail tracks. What they should have done instead was upgraded the existing two track non-electrified commuter rail to four track electrified regional rail, with local and express tracks both directions. The local would stop at the same places as GLX. But the express would provide better (faster, more frequent) service, upgrading the Lowell line to regional rail quality. This would also provide a solid foundation for future regional service by extending from Lowell on to Nashua, Manchester, and Concord NH. And the local in Somerville would have had much higher capacity than GLX , with better potential for extending high frequency  local services into Medford, Winchester, and Woburn. Also would have created a much more complementary infrastructure if they are ever able to get the North-South rail link project implemented. 
 

And I’ll add that Boston GLX light rail probably has higher capacity and faster speeds than any “streetcar” level infrastructure. 
 

I think it’s really important that this gets done in a way that is a first phase to a better transit system rather than a one-off, stand-alone, no chance for expansion project. 

 

I think this will be good for Canton and the Airport regardless, though your points are well taken and I agree, I would love to see a commuter rail line from Cleveland down to Canton. I might actually visit Canton once-in-awhile...

 

The distance between Canton and the airport isn't insignificant... hopefully they go with a heavy rail line to get into the city at least. 

 

You can leave comments through this survey. https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/W8WC6RY

3 minutes ago, cadmen said:

^ Yes any rail connection between Cleveland, Akron and Canton would have to be heavy rail. Light rail is perfectly suited for inner city rail. 

 

All of us rail lovers would salivate over connecting American cities like they do in Europe but unfortunately l don't think we'll ever come close. Americans are a very different people culturally. We prefer not to share our space with strangers and we love the freedom cars provide. That makes rail problematic.

Come on, this isn’t why we don’t have rail. A sizeable majority of people in every country prefer a car when it is heavily subsidized by the government. And no other countries subsidize driving as much as the US. If externalities were appropriately charged to the driver, and public transportation were properly funded, and land use was appropriately reformed, Americans would be just as likely to ride transit as people in any other country. And if people in other countries had driving so heavily subsidized as American governments do, most of them would choose to drive. 
 

To fix it, we need to be more honest and public about the true costs of designing everything around cars, and then our leaders need to have the courage to make the incremental changes necessary to improve it. This is NOT a difference of American culture. 

^ All unfortunately true but the reason we're set up that way is our culture. I think that's what's driving those decisions.

10 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

I think this will be good for Canton and the Airport regardless, though your points are well taken and I agree, I would love to see a commuter rail line from Cleveland down to Canton. I might actually visit Canton once-in-awhile...

 

The distance between Canton and the airport isn't insignificant... hopefully they go with a heavy rail line to get into the city at least. 

 

You can leave comments through this survey. https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/W8WC6RY

Thanks - here’s what I put in the fill in the blank / other comments:

Streetcar is a fun concept, but please use a heavy rail infrastructure instead so that it could be the first phase of Canton-Akron-Cleveland regional rail. Heavy rail has better capacity, top speed, and acceleration (if electrified). Streetcar would be limited as a stand-alone project with no potential for expansion. Heavy rail offers a future of better regional connectivity including easier connections to CAK airport from other parts of the region. Heavy rail could also share rail infrastructure w freight rail, making the investment more useful and easier to expand.  Heavy Rail >>> Streetcar. 

@Boomerang_BrianThanks for posting Quincy Morgan's Twitter thread.  Sorry I didn't respond sooner.  Anyway...

 

Until Amtrak admits that it has been diverting money from the long distance  and state-suported trains via their route accounting system and using it to prop up the NEC, you won't see them put any money into the LD network. 

 

The only exception here might be the North Coast Hiawatha through southern Montana--and that's because Montana's senators support it.  In fact, I would bet that Senator John Tester of Montana I'd the one responsible for that provision in the law.  

 

Even that train won't happen anytime soon. Amtrak doesn't have the equipment.  New LD equipment is badly needed  but all Amtrak has ordered is new Acelas and new corridor equipment.  They don't plan on placing an order for LD equipment until 2024, meaning the firstbreplacement cars won't come until close to 2030.  It's iffy that the LD equipment will even last that long as the Superliners used on the western LD trains and the Capitol Ltd are on the verge of developing structural problems.  

 

Amtrak President and CEO Stephen Gardner has disdain fir the LD trains.  He was the main driver behind trying to break up the SW Chief and run a bus bridge between LA Junta, CO and Albuquerque, NM.  If it were up to him, the LD trains wouldn't exist.  Fortunately it's not, but the way the LD trains are operating this summer with equipment failures delaying trains and sleepers being removed without notice to passengers, etc., it really looks like he's trying to hobble the LD network.  

 

I'll add that Antrak board Chair Anthony Coscia is just as bad, yet Biden re-appointed him.  

13 hours ago, cadmen said:

^ All unfortunately true but the reason we're set up that way is our culture. I think that's what's driving those decisions.

It's less of a cultural decision than is assumed by some.  Every national poll ever done for the past 25 years about whether the country should improve rail and transit infrastructure has shown majority support for both.  

 

The few transit-friendly, walkable neighborhoods the country has are too expensive fir most people to live in because demand exceeds supply.  

 

Americans don't have a l8ve affair with cars as us often said. It's a shotgun marriage.  

I take polls with a grain of salt. Depending on how questions are asked you can get very different responses. Even if a majority of Americans (doubtful) say they favor improved public transport that doesn't mean IF they got it they would actually use it. Talk (poll opinions) is cheap. Actions speak louder. 

 

I do think ridership would be greatly expanded if there was better service. Ex. Even though I love rail (don't like busses) I rarely use RTA because the train doesn't go where I want and when it does the service is way to slow. Believe me I would like nothing better than to have the old street car system back in place. Because most people in Cleveland lived near a stop back then hoping on a streetcar to go shopping or get to work was very convenient. The only way to create that kind of convenience today would be to massively change the funding. That's not going to happen. 

39 minutes ago, cadmen said:

I take polls with a grain of salt... that doesn't mean IF they got it they would actually use it. Talk (poll opinions) is cheap. Actions speak louder. 

 

 

And every single time I've seen this statement made, it's done with no actual evidence. 

 

As I said, the few walkable, transit-friendly neighborhoods that exist in the US are too expensive for most because demand exceeds supply.

 

The fact that driving and (outside of urban areas) parking has been priced well below cost, influences behavior too. 

 

It's good that you think if transit were expanded, more people would use it.  That's true, if it's done right.  Most transit buses are a PITA because they are stuck in the same traffic, on the same poorly-designed streets and stroads as cars.  Make it efficient, frequent, and clean and they become more attractive.  

 

As an example, when the 86 bus from the Brook Park station to Berea existed, I wanted to use it more, but service was too infrequent and didn't run late enough into the evening.  RTA just considered it a commuter bus and nothing more.  

^ Ok. Here's an example. The 2016 election. Polls predicted Clinton would win handily. After that misunderstanding of what voters wanted we heard alot of talk by pollsters about needing better models. I'm not saying polls are worthless, l'm just saying you have to be careful in interpreting them. People often say one thing but do another.

 

 

And look, I'm a train guy. I just don't think the majority of Americans agree with me. Unfortunately.

32 minutes ago, cadmen said:

^ Ok. Here's an example. The 2016 election. Polls predicted Clinton would win handily. After that misunderstanding of what voters wanted we heard alot of talk by pollsters about needing better models. I'm not saying polls are worthless, l'm just saying you have to be careful in interpreting them. People often say one thing but do another.

 

 

And look, I'm a train guy. I just don't think the majority of Americans agree with me. Unfortunately.

Not a strong example - commentators who actually understand polling and statistics (think 538) were pretty public that Trump had about a 30% chance of winning the electoral college. Those are pretty solid chances - roughly 1 in 3.  

^ Ok. Here's an example. The 2016 election. Polls predicted Clinton would win handily. After that misunderstanding of what voters wanted we heard alot of talk by pollsters about needing better models. I'm not saying polls are worthless, l'm just saying you have to be careful in interpreting them. People often say one thing but do another.
 
 
And look, I'm a train guy. I just don't think the majority of Americans agree with me. Unfortunately.

They were off by 1.1 point. Extremely close.

Well within margin of error. As far as statistics is concerned. They nailed it.


The issue was the razor thin margins in states.


And their polls were still within margin of error.


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html

Trump was minority rule because of the electoral college. 

2 hours ago, cadmen said:

^ Ok. Here's an example. The 2016 election. Polls predicted Clinton would win handily. After that misunderstanding of what voters wanted we heard alot of talk by pollsters about needing better models. I'm not saying polls are worthless, l'm just saying you have to be careful in interpreting them. People often say one thing but do another.

 

 

And look, I'm a train guy. I just don't think the majority of Americans agree with me. Unfortunately.

The other responses notwithstanding-- apples and oranges.  Show us an example of a transportation poll that you feel is wrong.  

Edited June 17, 20222 yr by gildone
Spelling

Apples and Oranges? I was asked by you to show evidence of a poll that was inaccurate. Which I did. Now you want me to produce evidence of a transportation poll that is inaccurate? 

 

A quick google search about inaccurate polls will show that pollsters are having problems. Look, my statement was about not trusting polls in general and not specifically transportation polls. There are issues with poll results. If you think the reliability of a specific poll is based on the subject (political = no trust and transportation = trust) well, I don't know what to say about that. You may be correct...or not. I don't really know. 

 

But back to rail...forget the polls. Let's look at behavior. As was said previously, the concrete/highway/auto lobby gets WAY more funding by our political representatives than rail specifically or public transportation in general. On that we agree. And why is that? Is the public demanding that outcome or is it the politicians simply responding to the money doled out by the lobbyists for the concrete/highway/auto? Maybe a little of both but either way that side is getting the funding. At any rate, as I said before I believe the biggest reason for the disparity in transportation is cultural. Americans are just a different people. We love our freedom and that means we prefer the freedom to drive anywhere vs. having to be forced to go where the train/bus goes. We love our personal space and prefer to not have to share it with strangers. The American ideal is still the suburban home with the white picket fence and a car in the garage. I'm speaking in generalities here. Of course there are millions of us (me included) who don't subscribe to that view. But the majority do and THEY also have control of the purse strings so until that changes I don't see rail as any more than a reginal (primarily the East Coast Corridor) transportation option. As a train buff I wish I was wrong. But I don't think I am.

Your transportation freedom depends heavily on land use. In the 1920s, new car sales flattened out. Car manufacturers thought they had tapped out the market and the few people that had bought new cars weren't driving them very much. They acknowledged that the largest untapped market was urban residents who considered cars a hassle in their crowded cities. So the automakers, oil companies and road builders began public relations and political campaigns to redesign cities in a manner that would encourage people to drive more and buy more new cars.

 

If you live in a dense, walkable city, you have freedom. If you live in a car-dependent area, you don't. You are forced to spend an average of $10,000+ per year just to survive. Most Americans don't even question their anti-social, anti-freedom built environment any more than a fish notices their water.

On 6/13/2022 at 3:02 PM, KJP said:

I'll never forget when, in about 1995-96, the Ohio Rail Development Commission was about to vote on requesting from the State Capital Budget $60 million to fund the start-up of 3C, extension of Amtrak's Pennsylvanian from Pittsburgh to Cleveland and the development of two weekday commuter trains each weekday Cleveland-Cuyahoga Falls (getting into downtown Akron required a lot more money). I remember being so excited that we might finally get somewhere.

 

At the ORDC meeting where their vote was to happen, Gov. George Voinovich's Chief of Staff Paul Misfud showed up and berated the ORDC's director, staff and commissioners for even thinking about making such a request of state funds. "Passenger trains? Passenger trains?? Are you people in outer space?" yelled Misfud.

 

Talk about bad timing. Misfud resigned in 1996. The reason? He was charged with tampering with evidence, forgery and three counts of tampering with records, all felonies. He also was charged with misdemeanor offenses of obstructing official business, petty theft and violating Ohio ethics law. Under the original charges, Mifsud could have served up to 11 years in prison. Instead he pleaded to two lesser charges and served only three days in jail. He died in 2000 from cancer.

 

I remember that like it was yesterday. Mifsud directly threatened their jobs too. He was a puffed up bastard who deserved what he got later in life. Yes, this was one of several times that defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory. His boss, Gov. Voinovich was interested only in rail freight. I also recall that the ODOT Director of Modes, John Platt, a really good guy, was sacked. We had another meeting where Platt endorsed $65 million for the 3C Corridor and that ORDC's Bob Chizmar, a high speed rail guy, had a negative reaction. "$65 million?!?!" he snorted incredulously. Mifsud got wind of what ORDC was planning to do and I'd bet Chizmar was his source of information. We also had a run in with Chizmar after we came out against the $800 million test track before that. He called us "divisive" and sniped at us over a dinner. Yes, $800 million for a test track, but that $65 million for service we can use is such a waste <sarcasm>.

Edited June 18, 20222 yr by neony

On 6/15/2022 at 6:29 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

From Canton dev thread:

 

“Streetcar” is the wrong infrastructure for this. It should be the first phase of Canton-Akron-Cleveland regional rail. I don’t think a streetcar would have an appropriate top speed for this future use. I’d much rather see them use DMU Diesel Multiple Units or EMU Electric Multiple Units - a heavy rail infrastructure with a higher top speed and much greater capacity. Ideally just start with the EMU, even though it increases capital cost. That would add the benefit of faster acceleration in addition to higher top speed. 

 

For comparison, Boston MBTA just made this mistake with the Green Line Extension (GLX) into Somerville. The Green Line is light rail (through downtown it is in a subway). They extended it along grade-separated commuter rail tracks. What they should have done instead was upgraded the existing two track non-electrified commuter rail to four track electrified regional rail, with local and express tracks both directions. The local would stop at the same places as GLX. But the express would provide better (faster, more frequent) service, upgrading the Lowell line to regional rail quality. This would also provide a solid foundation for future regional service by extending from Lowell on to Nashua, Manchester, and Concord NH. And the local in Somerville would have had much higher capacity than GLX , with better potential for extending high frequency  local services into Medford, Winchester, and Woburn. Also would have created a much more complementary infrastructure if they are ever able to get the North-South rail link project implemented. 
 

And I’ll add that Boston GLX light rail probably has higher capacity and faster speeds than any “streetcar” level infrastructure. 
 

I think it’s really important that this gets done in a way that is a first phase to a better transit system rather than a one-off, stand-alone, no chance for expansion project. 

 

They may be calling the project a streetcar, but it sounds much more like light rail. Indeed, another article does call it the latter.  Terms like "streetcar" get tossed around carelessly at times.

Edited June 18, 20222 yr by neony

1 hour ago, neony said:

 

I remember that like it was yesterday. Mifsud directly threatened their jobs too. He was a puffed up bastard who deserved what he got later in life. Yes, this was one of several times that defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory. His boss, Gov. Voinovich was interested only in rail freight. I also recall that the ODOT Director of Modes, John Platt, a really good guy, was sacked. We had another meeting where Platt endorsed $65 million for the 3C Corridor and that ORDC's Bob Chizmar, a high speed rail guy, had a negative reaction. "$65 million?!?!" he snorted incredulously. Mifsud got wind of what ORDC was planning to do and I'd bet Chizmar was his source of information. We also had a run in with Chizmar after we came out against the $800 million test track before that. He called us "divisive" and sniped at us over a dinner. Yes, $800 million for a test track, but that $65 million for service we can use is such a waste <sarcasm>.

 

By the way, I am absolutely certain that the high speed folks were whispering about us behind our backs too. We were really up against several forms of opposition, one being a whispering campaign by HSR proponents, opposition or lack of interest on the part of some legislators and governors and finally, good old Ohio apathy. I do remember the Speaker of the Ohio House telling me that she did not see rail as an issue worth supporting.

^ Yeah, the deck is stacked against us rail buffs for many reasons. 

7 hours ago, neony said:

 

They may be calling the project a streetcar, but it sounds much more like light rail. Indeed, another article does call it the latter.  Terms like "streetcar" get tossed around carelessly at times.

Kind of like how the term Light Rail gets tossed around carelessly? Ha. I just want something that has a good top speed that would be worth extending to Akron and on to Cleveland. 

Indeed!

On 6/17/2022 at 11:19 PM, KJP said:

Your transportation freedom depends heavily on land use. In the 1920s, new car sales flattened out. Car manufacturers thought they had tapped out the market and the few people that had bought new cars weren't driving them very much. They acknowledged that the largest untapped market was urban residents who considered cars a hassle in their crowded cities. So the automakers, oil companies and road builders began public relations and political campaigns to redesign cities in a manner that would encourage people to drive more and buy more new cars.

 

If you live in a dense, walkable city, you have freedom. If you live in a car-dependent area, you don't. You are forced to spend an average of $10,000+ per year just to survive. Most Americans don't even question their anti-social, anti-freedom built environment any more than a fish notices their water.

 

 

I have heard, and truly believe, this theory. Is there any further reading you can suggest?

12 hours ago, TotalTransit said:

 

 

I have heard, and truly believe, this theory. Is there any further reading you can suggest?

 

Highly recommended....

 

https://www.amazon.com/Getting-There-Struggle-between-American/dp/0226300439

I've heard from downstate Ohioans that where they're from anything with Cleveland in its name is a hard sell.  So I wonder if the 3C+D train would do better at getting statewide support if it was promoted as a Columbus-centric project, which it more or less is.  2C+D to Columbus routes will produce the biggest ridership numbers. Plus Columbus appears to be way more successful at wringing cash out of the state than either of the other C's.  The fact that it supports Amtrak's expansion in Cleveland could be called a serendipitous fallout.

The problem with getting the state to approve the 3C rail isn't with Cincinnati not liking things associated with Cleveland. 

11 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

The problem with getting the state to approve the 3C rail isn't with Cincinnati not liking things associated with Cleveland. 

 

It's that every state rep with clout and a town within 20 miles of I-71 is going to expect a stop in exchange for not saying no, and the rest of the state including Toledo and the SW are going to see no benefit and also say no.

3 hours ago, Dougal said:

I've heard from downstate Ohioans that where they're from anything with Cleveland in its name is a hard sell.  So I wonder if the 3C+D train would do better at getting statewide support if it was promoted as a Columbus-centric project, which it more or less is.  2C+D to Columbus routes will produce the biggest ridership numbers. Plus Columbus appears to be way more successful at wringing cash out of the state than either of the other C's.  The fact that it supports Amtrak's expansion in Cleveland could be called a serendipitous fallout.

 

Then Cleveland/Northeast Ohio can focus on developing east-west services. It's comparatively easy to extend a train or three from the Wolverine, Empire or Keystone corridors to Cleveland. As long as a government is willing to sponsor it....

Alon is extremely knowledgeable on this stuff. One of the most important transportation projects that should be happening (and isn’t) is a high speed rail connection from the Midwest to the East Coast. The best route is via Cleveland  and Pittsburgh.  (Cleveland - Buffalo was another strong answer to the OP’s question.)