February 16, 20232 yr I always get freaked out anytime I think about the fact Cincinnati has a big underground downtown riverfront transit center just sitting around not being really used except for buses during big events. Edited February 16, 20232 yr by 646empire
February 16, 20232 yr 16 minutes ago, Lazarus said: It's extremely complicated. How/where does it branch from the existing system? On Central Parkway? On Liberty? On 12th? On 14th? How/where do the streetcars serve CUT? The #1 bus rounds the front drive but I'm not sure that the streetcar can or should do that. Do the streetcars instead turn around in front of the fountain? Do we reduce exhibit space in order to reactivate the old streetcar tunnels? Does the streetcar instead serve CUT in the Dalton St. tunnel and a new staircase in front of the fountain or maybe even beneath it to the main concourse? Does the streetcar instead travel to the back of CUT so as to link almost directly with the Amtrak platforms? For example, the tracks could travel down Hopkins St. and drop passengers off here: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1096637,-84.5380243,74m/data=!3m1!1e3 I think you’re making it more complicated than it actually is, There are multiple but similar routes it could take for Union Terminal most which have been posted on this site a million times. Many of your questions are putting the cart wayyyyy before the horse, there is no extension in the planning stage let alone the design- finance stage. The city first needs to determine where it wants the stop. I don’t think new Amtrak service is even a good enough reason to extend the streetcar west anyway. A new or expanded bus route (5-7 minutes into the business district is just fine). The Streetcar needs to go to Clifton or NKY next period. If it’s the riverfront transit center then it’s all baked in and ready to go tomorrow in regards to location. Edited February 16, 20232 yr by 646empire
February 16, 20232 yr 36 minutes ago, 646empire said: Sorry too much to read thru where exactly is the proposed stop for Cincy?? If it’s Union Terminal that would be the flashiest of all the Ohio cities, it’s simply stunning as everyone knows but not really downtown although it’s very close. If it’s the Riverfront Transit Center that would be blockbuster and I think the best in the state with The Banks, Both Stadiums and the business district all in one plus easy access to 75/71, StreetCar and Busses and 2000+? parking spaces in the garages underneath The Banks development. Union Terminal is the proposed location.
February 16, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, Lazarus said: The freight railroading situation in Cincinnati is extremely complicated as the separate CSX and Norfolk-Southern networks use the same yard throat. This throat also leads to CUT (and the transit center). The throat was expanded from two to three parallel tracks around 2000. This allows CSX and N-S to stage trains before they enter the yard. Trains often wait 45 minutes or more on these tracks before entering the yard. A dedicated passenger track is necessary in order to avoid disrupting this activity. All of the Chicago and Cleveland trains will approach Cincinnati on the same 30 miles of track from Hamilton to CUT. This means Amtrak trains will routinely have to pass each other while in motion in this 30-mile zone in order to stay on schedule (or to try to get back on schedule). Inbound and outbound Amtrak trains won't be able to reliably pass each other between CUT and Ivorydale without the dedicated track, creating a large section of the route where outbound trains are "trapped" at one of the two CUT platforms, waiting for the inbound train to get all the way to the platform. Adding a 4th track at Ivorydale won't be that complicated and there's space around CUT to park trains to avoid a backup. I think you're overthinking how many trains are going to be coming and going for Amtrak. It's not like we're going to have a commuter train coming every 30 minutes and an Amtrak train leaving every hour. Once the trains get to Hamilton, the switch over to the Chicago line isn't difficult either and once you're past Hamilton, the speed limit is higher. 36 minutes ago, Lazarus said: It's not an easy problem to solve. -Most Cincinnatians have never ridden the bus -There is no guarantee that Amtrak will have on-time arrivals/departures at CUT with any regularity, given the preposterous complexity of the situation -The #31 travels in the Dalton St. Tunnel, making for a somewhat intimidating drop off/pickup for UC students -The #1 doesn't run on the weekends anymore -The existing streetcar system can't be easily branched to reach Union Terminal given the weird street layout in OTR Again, I think you're overthinking it. Who gives a frig if most Cincinnatians haven't ridden a bus. If there's a dedicated line that's easy to understand then people going to and from CUT will ride a bus. A dedicated BRT route from CUT across downtown to the Casino then connecting to the upcoming BRT route up Reading would be great and provide passengers assurance as to where they're going. I'd prefer a streetcar though. Another streetcar line could easily be routed from 12th street, around Music hall and down the median of Ezzard Charles. The line could end in the CUT parking lot and head straight back out to connect back into the streetcar route at 12th and Washington Park.
February 16, 20232 yr 8 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: Union Terminal is the proposed location. Gotcha I love it, I think a new more frequent metro bus-express route is perfect for this location with the drop off being Government Square. Folks make simple things way too complicated in this state. This Amtrak service expansion is great but not that deep (in my opinion). Edited February 16, 20232 yr by 646empire
February 16, 20232 yr 46 minutes ago, Lazarus said: It's not an easy problem to solve. -Most Cincinnatians have never ridden the bus Okay? Most Cincinnatians have never taken Amtrak either. That would definitely change with better intercity rail connections. -There is no guarantee that Amtrak will have on-time arrivals/departures at CUT with any regularity, given the preposterous complexity of the situation The study is going to address the complexity. That's what it is for. 46 minutes ago, Lazarus said: -The #31 travels in the Dalton St. Tunnel, making for a somewhat intimidating drop off/pickup for UC students Lol really? This is the best you have? Bus routes are easy to change. Lighting and signage is easy to install. This is a very fixable problem. 46 minutes ago, Lazarus said: -The #1 doesn't run on the weekends anymore The #1 doesn't even go to CUT. Maybe you mean the 49? It's extremely easy to resume weekend service or to add additional routes. 46 minutes ago, Lazarus said: -The existing streetcar system can't be easily branched to reach Union Terminal given the weird street layout in OTR Yes it can. You can branch at 12th or Central Parkway very easily.
February 16, 20232 yr 34 minutes ago, Lazarus said: How/where do the streetcars serve CUT? The #1 bus rounds the front drive but I'm not sure that the streetcar can or should do that. Do the streetcars instead turn around in front of the fountain? Do we reduce exhibit space in order to reactivate the old streetcar tunnels? Does the streetcar instead serve CUT in the Dalton St. tunnel and a new staircase in front of the fountain or maybe even beneath it to the main concourse? Does the streetcar instead travel to the back of CUT so as to link almost directly with the Amtrak platforms? This might be the most ridiculous objection yet. Why couldn't a streetcar round the front drive? Streetcars make all the turns on the tight OTR streets just fine.
February 16, 20232 yr I made this a while back but the streetcar could go on either side of CUT and simply come back the way it came. Ideally, you'd run it into one of the parking lots as not to obstruct the view of the building. If you want to get really wild, you could build an underground station but that would be pretty expensive.
February 16, 20232 yr 7 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: This might be the most ridiculous objection yet. Why couldn't a streetcar round the front drive? Streetcars make all the turns on the tight OTR streets just fine. The beauty of rail transit is that it doesn't need to turn around at the end of the line. You just have a switch that moves the train to the correct line.
February 16, 20232 yr 46 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: This might be the most ridiculous objection yet. Why couldn't a streetcar round the front drive? Streetcars make all the turns on the tight OTR streets just fine. For the same reason streetcars weren't planned to use the front drive back in the 1930s, plus the dedicated handicapped spaces that didn't exist back then. A streetcar would need a dedicated, protected lane in that area. There would then need to be a sidewalk width between the streetcar track and the new curb. This would significantly reduce the functioning space of the circle. It's a much smaller space than people think it is by memory: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1096133,-84.5370401,3a,75y,5.3h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNTgXVfj7pIotKL_TgsERBg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 Alternatively, the track could serve the inside of the curve, adjacent to the fountain, but again it would need a protected lane. It would also need an awning, given its distance from the terminal's existing awning, and that would corrupt the aesthetics. Also, the streetcar overhead wire and associated poles would detract significantly from the appearance of the terminal. If the city "solves" the problem by buying hybrid battery streetcars, those streetcars will have to be dedicated to the CUT branch. The existing streetcars won't be able to travel over there.
February 16, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, DEPACincy said: The #1 doesn't even go to CUT. Maybe you mean the 49? It's extremely easy to resume weekend service or to add additional routes. The #1 was Union Terminal to the Cincinnati Zoo via Downtown and Mt. Adams for over 50 years. They cut CUT last year. The #1 doesn't go to the zoo anymore, either. 1 hour ago, DEPACincy said: Yes it can. You can branch at 12th or Central Parkway very easily. No, it's not an easy situation. The streetcar already suffers from excessive squiggling. Getting to Ezzard Charles via the side streets north or south of Music Hall adds more squiggling. Three 90 degree turns. That means the streetcar must come to a full stop at those intersections, almost every single time.
February 16, 20232 yr I spent three years in Salt Lake riding on a line to work that made three 90 degree turns with trains 3 times as long as the streetcar. Dedicated lanes and signal priority will fix these issues. You can easily run the streetcar into the parking lot and not block any views of the terminal
February 17, 20232 yr 4 hours ago, Lazarus said: The #1 was Union Terminal to the Cincinnati Zoo via Downtown and Mt. Adams for over 50 years. They cut CUT last year. The #1 doesn't go to the zoo anymore, either. No, it's not an easy situation. The streetcar already suffers from excessive squiggling. Getting to Ezzard Charles via the side streets north or south of Music Hall adds more squiggling. Three 90 degree turns. That means the streetcar must come to a full stop at those intersections, almost every single time. Yes, they changed the routes. Which just proves they can do it again lol. And the streetcar already travels on 12th. It can just keep going straight at Elm then turn right on Central Parkway instead of right on Elm. Then the left onto Ezzard Charles is the only added turn and it's from one very wide street to another.
February 17, 20232 yr I missed this last week - Cleveland Scene did a write up on the Amtrak expansion proposals in Ohio: https://www.clevescene.com/news/gov-mike-dewine-gives-thumbs-up-to-ohio-passenger-rail-expansion-study-41380194 Gov. Mike DeWine Gives Thumbs Up to Ohio Passenger Rail Expansion Study If all goes smoothly, Amtrak says trains could be rolling in three to four years [Note, three years seems wildly optimistic. Best case would be three years from the conclusion of the study, and I don’t know how long it takes to complete studies. I’m sure the people who do that work have many proposals to go through right now.] …. "It would be, 'How many trains a day? What the level of services in the train? Are they all coach? Are they coaching business class or they coach business class and sleeper? Are they going overnight or daytime?" Marc Magliari, a spokesperson working out of Amtrak's Chicago office, told Scene. "All of those things need to be worked out." He added, "But the first step is asking for the study, and that's what Governor DeWine has said." [Me: How strange is it to be talking about sleepers on the Ohio 3C&D?] When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 17, 20232 yr I sit here in Poland, about 1/2 mile from a train station with 450 departures per day. Yet it is somehow it is impractical or even impossible for the US, with 4-5 times the GDP per capita, to manage serve a single station with 3 trains a day. In a metro twice as big as the one I am in. And getting people to and from the station is also a complex and insurmountable problem to be solved. Like...just do it. It's basic stuff for countries all over the world. Edited February 17, 20232 yr by greenville2
February 17, 20232 yr What is also interesting...whenever I scan satellite images to choose a good place for a stop for the 3C+D, there is almost always an historical/former stop there. Examples: Cincinnati - (Union Terminal) Hamilton - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3942025,-84.558986,186m/data=!3m1!1e3 Middletown - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5138846,-84.3921503,320m/data=!3m1!1e3 Miamisburg - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6421063,-84.2845586,167m/data=!3m1!1e3 Dayton - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7545381,-84.1936146,500m/data=!3m1!1e3 Gallion - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7345637,-82.7834584,563m/data=!3m1!1e3 Or on a potential CMH-CHI Line Lima - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7449926,-84.1012708,279m/data=!3m1!1e3 So it's not only been done other places before, but right in Ohio. 150 years ago.
February 17, 20232 yr I think it is very reasonable to discuss what will be challenging about this project and I appreciate @Lazarus’s comments on those details. Ignoring challenges of proposals is one of many reasons why project costs are so high in the US compared to global best-in-class. It feels like some people are taking his comments as arguments against the 3C&D, when said comments are much more “these are the details that will need to be addressed.” By comparison, I’m a LOT more frustrated with Amtrak’s CEO Gardner saying 3C&D will only cost $100M to start up. If that ends up being the price tag, it means we’re getting a very subpar service. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 17, 20232 yr 18 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: By comparison, I’m a LOT more frustrated with Amtrak’s CEO Gardner saying 3C&D will only cost $100M to start up. If that ends up being the price tag, it means we’re getting a very subpar service. And if they do spend more, others will attack the project for lying about how much it would cost, even though the FRA study will be much more accurate than his off-hand comment.
February 17, 20232 yr 24 minutes ago, greenville2 said: What is also interesting...whenever I scan satellite images to choose a good place for a stop for the 3C+D, there is almost always an historical/former stop there. Examples: Cincinnati - (Union Terminal) Hamilton - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3942025,-84.558986,186m/data=!3m1!1e3 Middletown - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5138846,-84.3921503,320m/data=!3m1!1e3 Miamisburg - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6421063,-84.2845586,167m/data=!3m1!1e3 Dayton - https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7545381,-84.1936146,500m/data=!3m1!1e3 Gallion - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7345637,-82.7834584,563m/data=!3m1!1e3 Or on a potential CMH-CHI Line Lima - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7449926,-84.1012708,279m/data=!3m1!1e3 So it's not only been done other places before, but right in Ohio. 150 years ago. It's a real shame that Columbus tore down their old station. It would be a great place for a 3C stop and it was a beautiful building.
February 17, 20232 yr 40 minutes ago, greenville2 said: Like...just do it. It's basic stuff for countries all over the world. It's not possible. There are too many forces aligned against it. This is who killed it off the last time Ohio was awarded money: The money that Ohio was awarded was sent back to the Feds and re-awarded to California. The money Cincinnati got to expand the streetcar system to UC was instead diverted to northern Ohio, where it built two freight railroad grade crossings. Here's one of them: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toledo,+OH/@41.6187806,-83.7032825,253m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x883b872dfc1e4e79:0x7c3cc89f453ac345!8m2!3d41.6528052!4d-83.5378674!16zL20vMDdsNXo Here's the other: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wellington,+OH+44090/@41.1706485,-82.2174596,353m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x8830a17cd3969295:0x14e7ae4e20f4f9fc!8m2!3d41.1689421!4d-82.2179354!16zL20vMHlfMDI
February 17, 20232 yr The difference is this time we have a republican governor somewhat advocating for the 3C plan and the setup is different as Amtrak now has more federal $ to set these systems up and less cost. As much as I despise DeWine, this is at least one thing I can agree with him on. IIRC the Obama era rail plan would have been more pricey and required more buy-in from the state. I'm not defending Kasich either. He gave money back and re-routed it to win political points. Nothing is impossible. I'm more hopeful about Amtrak expansion in Ohio this time because so little is required of the state.
February 17, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said: The difference is this time we have a republican governor somewhat advocating for the 3C plan and the setup is different as Amtrak now has more federal $ to set these systems up and less cost. This is especially true because Amtrak has the ability to make improvements to their long-distance lines, and the interest to do so. For example, they wanted 4 round trips from Cincy to Chicago as a separate service from the Cardinal. Well the US Senate prevented them from doing that on their own so instead they are going to work on improving the Cardinal to 4 times a day. Similarly, they can't do 3C+D so they move the stop in Sharonville to Hamilton, because they can use the Cardinal to make improvements from Cincy to Hamilton, but wouldn't be able to do the same between Cincy and Sharonville. I might be connecting dots that don't exist, but that's what I would do given the legal constraints at the moment.
February 18, 20232 yr 10 hours ago, Lazarus said: It's not possible. There are too many forces aligned against it. This is who killed it off the last time Ohio was awarded money: The money that Ohio was awarded was sent back to the Feds and re-awarded to California. The money Cincinnati got to expand the streetcar system to UC was instead diverted to northern Ohio, where it built two freight railroad grade crossings. Here's one of them: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Toledo,+OH/@41.6187806,-83.7032825,253m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x883b872dfc1e4e79:0x7c3cc89f453ac345!8m2!3d41.6528052!4d-83.5378674!16zL20vMDdsNXo Here's the other: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wellington,+OH+44090/@41.1706485,-82.2174596,353m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x8830a17cd3969295:0x14e7ae4e20f4f9fc!8m2!3d41.1689421!4d-82.2179354!16zL20vMHlfMDI The 2010 money was divvyed up among multiple states, not just California. Among them was Michigan. And I've noticed in recent days that there seems to be a recurring theme among anti-rail folks in Ohio who keep referring to California's very expensive high-speed rail project as a reason not to do an Amtrak 3C Corridor. The differences are so many I couldn't even begin to list them all here in a reasonable period of time. And that's how the rail-phobes can win again. When an anti- campaign is trying to turn out a quick-hit reason to just say no, it's a lot easier for vulnerable brains to absorb that than all of the reasons why these aren't parallel projects. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21, 20232 yr Heard Mark Policinski speak the other day about the 3C-D proposed line. The biggest takeaways were that 1) Ohio is proceeding cautiously moving forward on the new potential rail lines. 2) THere is a ton of "free government money" to push this plan (but that being said it still may not make sense) 3) The new proposal is a lot better thought out than the one under the Obama administration which was really bad and did not have the buy in from the proper stakeholders in the process. This incentivizes the railroads to work with Amtrak and passenger rail (if feasible). 4) The Biggest Takeaway - The 3C's do not necessarily see 3C connective rail as a huge priority. The people in Cleveland want expanded routes to connect to Detroit, Chicago, Pitts and Buffalo. Both the Cincinnati and Columbus delegation has also pushed for more expanded Amtrak service to Indianapolis and Chicago instead of prioritizing the 3C service. It seems that many of the business leaders really want increased service to Chicago first and foremost above all with the 3C project being a much lower priority.
February 21, 20232 yr I can see why cities want more connectivity with Chicago and the fact that Columbus doesn't have any rail service is a travesty. The Cardinal going to Chicago daily would be huge for Cincinnati. I think the 3Cs makes sense if you look at railways the way they should be looked at; which is as a piece of public infrastructure. Currently if you don't have a car or means to buy a plane ticket, you're stuck in your city. The 3Cs increase connectivity in Ohio and should be built regardless.
February 21, 20232 yr It's funny how the perception is that there's more travel between the 3Cs and Chicago than there is among the 3Cs. The 3C corridor is one of the most heavily traveled in the nation. I haven't seen updated Bureau of Transportation Statistics data on travel between city pairs since 1995, but this is what it was back then.... # Metro Area #1 Metro Area #2 Person Trips 1 Los Angeles San Diego 10,466,883 2 Las Vegas Los Angeles 9,120,296 3 New York Philadelphia 8, 476,339 4 New York Washington DC 7,773,377 5 Los Angeles San Francisco 7,049,954 6 Sacramento San Francisco 5,337,613 7 Philadelphia Washington DC 4,678,680 8 Dallas Houston 3,097,228 9 Portland Seattle 2,605,223 10 Norfolk Washington DC 2,590,212 11 Los Angeles Phoenix 2,472,665 12 San Diego San Francisco 2,415,188 13 Dallas San Antonio 2,286,587 14 Las Vegas San Diego 2,213,871 15 Boston New York 2,121,134 16 Albany New York 2,073,199 17 Harrisburg Philadelphia 2,060,693 18 Los Angeles Santa Barbara 2,036,605 19 Austin Houston 2,032,380 20 Lakeland Sarasota 1,940,000 21 Atlanta Nashville 1,893,454 22 Phoenix Tucson 1,811,036 23 Austin Dallas 1,805,389 24 Cleveland Columbus 1,800,126 25 Houston San Antonio 1,744,368 26 Miami New York 1,712,677 27 Reno San Francisco 1,704,123 28 Eugene Portland 1,666,301 29 Los Angeles Sacramento 1,631,660 30 Chicago Detroit 1,614,286 31 Beaumont Houston 1,450,625 32 Detroit Grand Rapids 1,411,112 33 Corpus Christi San Antonio 1,392,317 34 Oklahoma City Tulsa 1,344,266 35 Richmond Washington DC 1,327,046 36 Cincinnati Columbus 1,310,511 37 Hartford New York 1,285,033 38 Los Angeles New York 1,257,041 39 Atlanta Birmingham 1,219,047 40 Pittsburgh Washington DC 1,196,211 49 Cincinnati Indianapolis 1,029,824 51 Cleveland Detroit 987,179 80 Cleveland Pittsburgh 716,468 93 Cincinnati Cleveland 640,136 (Knowing how they operate, I fully expect the anti-rail cabal to use only this 3-C city-pair as a reason why there shouldn't be train service!) ** Cleveland - Columbus - Cincinnati 3,750,772 (if CLE-COL, COL-CIN, and CLE-CIN were added together, but doesn't include Dayton which didn't make it into the top 100 city pair markets) Not a single Ohio city to Chicago city-pair made it into the top 100 intercity travel markets. I realize that was 28 years ago, but I think most of these city-pair rankings still hold true. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21, 20232 yr My guess is the reason people want more trips to Chicago other than the three C's is that a train to Chicago might create more travel between the cities, where as the three C's route will probably primarily pull cars off the road. (Or I assume that's their thinking at least). A 2-hour drive (like Cleveland-Columbus) is very manageable and a 4/4.5 drive is on the cusp, but a 5.5 hour drive is enough to push people in planes or avoid the trip all together. I'll leave it to others to decide if that line of thought makes sense, but it's what I assume they're thinking.
February 21, 20232 yr Chicago is the major metro region of the Midwest and is frequently a travel destination. If people are considering a train as an alternative to a plane, the trip to Chicago makes sense because there's still a big market of flights between the 3Cs and Chicago. Alternatively, people have a hard time considering a train as an alternative to driving. Once you do it, though, it's really nice not having to deal with the stress of the road. I also don't think this is an either/or situation. I wouldn't be surprised to see Amtrak increase the Cardinal to daily service and look at some sort of service that includes Cbus to Chicago. If you can pitch Columbus as a hub for Ohio rail, maybe the politicians in the area would be more amenable to it.
February 21, 20232 yr 20 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said: I wouldn't be surprised to see Amtrak increase the Cardinal to daily service At bare minimum, there need to be two Cardinals per day, per direction, to make it a viable train route. Right now, you need to organize your entire trip around the caprices of this train, which passes through Cincinnati and Indianapolis in the middle of the night in both directions. Improving the freight line between Chicago and Indianapolis would be of use to both Cincinnati and future Columbus trains.
February 21, 20232 yr Really find it crazy Policinscki wants to make this an either or argument, it really should not be at all.
February 21, 20232 yr 36 minutes ago, Lazarus said: Improving the freight line between Chicago and Indianapolis would be of use to both Cincinnati and future Columbus trains. Unfortunately there's no rail line between Columbus and Indianapolis anymore, unless you want to dip south to Hamilton and make a future transfer or right turn. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, KJP said: Unfortunately there's no rail line between Columbus and Indianapolis anymore, unless you want to dip south to Hamilton and make a future transfer or right turn. Would Columbus go up to Toledo and then over? That would really screw over Dayton. Coming down to Hamilton would require building a turnout in DT Hamilton, since trains can currently only go one way: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3945636,-84.5592782,351m/data=!3m1!1e3 ...but really that whole track situation in Hamilton needs to be elevated or put in a trench. It's a total mess.
February 21, 20232 yr Unfortunate there isn't a plan to run a rail line along I-70 which runs from Utah to Baltimore through so many metros.
February 21, 20232 yr On 2/21/2023 at 2:49 PM, Lazarus said: Would Columbus go up to Toledo and then over? That would really screw over Dayton. Coming down to Hamilton would require building a turnout in DT Hamilton, since trains can currently only go one way: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3945636,-84.5592782,351m/data=!3m1!1e3 ...but really that whole track situation in Hamilton needs to be elevated or put in a trench. It's a total mess. No, the MORPC plan is to use one of the three CSX lines heading northward out of Columbus through Marysville to Dunkirk, restore a track connection to the Fort Wayne Line and go west from there to Lima, Fort Wayne and Chicago. If I were king, I would reroute north-south CSX traffic out of Hamilton over to NS and detour the few CSX trains from Indianapolis over to NS and into Cincy on NS tracks. I'd also move most of Queensgate's operations to a new yard built just south of Dayton, shown in white on the map. Red is freight-only tracks and blue is passenger tracks (the line west of Hamilton to Indiapolis could be mixed passenger-freight since there are so few freight trains). The freight-passenger railroad crossings in/near Hamilton would be grade-separated. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 20232 yr Hey @KJP, wouldn’t we want the passenger line to be able to have a station on the Middletown side of that river? When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 22, 20232 yr 49 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Hey @KJP, wouldn’t we want the passenger line to be able to have a station on the Middletown side of that river? That matters less than a faster, more reliable trip for the largest sources of ridership. That means segregating freight and passenger trains wherever possible. Through Middletown, the freight trains should be on NS because of the large source of freight tonnage generated by AK Steel's Middletown Works. The only reasons why I have the freight and passenger tracks trading rights of way just north of there is because CSX trains would have to switch to the north side of the passenger tracks someplace and central Dayton doesn't easily allow for it. And I propose to move Queensgate Yard to near Miamisburg. But even without relocating Queensgate, there's a good reason for making CSX the main freight routing from Miamisburg north to Dayton. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 20232 yr 8 hours ago, stashua123 said: Really find it crazy Policinscki wants to make this an either or argument, it really should not be at all. I do not think that is what he is trying to do. He is all for the study on the 3C rail line but he said the preference for business leaders is to expand service to Chicago first as that is a proven route that could be done immediately. He said if the study proves that it is viable, the 3C-D route would certainly also be welcome.
February 23, 20232 yr On 2/21/2023 at 2:03 PM, Lazarus said: At bare minimum, there need to be two Cardinals per day, per direction, to make it a viable train route. Right now, you need to organize your entire trip around the caprices of this train, which passes through Cincinnati and Indianapolis in the middle of the night in both directions. Amtrak publicly stated that their goal is to increase the Cardinal to 4 times a day. How they do that, and when, will come out of the FRA study.
March 1, 20232 yr Without an Akron/Canton/Youngstown/Wooster access,3C&D is just another alternative to I- 71. And an inferior alternative at that. A region with more than 1.7 million people and no Amtrak access. No wonder there is little enthusiasm in that particular area, that many people cannot be ignored, and rail service be effective.
March 1, 20232 yr 26 minutes ago, vulcana said: Without an Akron/Canton/Youngstown/Wooster access,3C&D is just another alternative to I- 71. And an inferior alternative at that. A region with more than 1.7 million people and no Amtrak access. No wonder there is little enthusiasm in that particular area, that many people cannot be ignored, and rail service be effective. There are no highways that serve every metro area in Ohio. With passenger rail, we have to start somewhere. Currently there is only the long distance Amtrak service in Ohio. The most logical / most likely to be successful next service is additional frequency on the existing routes. NOACA has requested this. The next most logical thing to do is to connect the four largest metro areas that happen to be in almost a straight line with existing well maintained freight track. That’s the 3C+D. After that, connections to large, nearby heavily populated metros - NOACA and Toledo’s planning org are requesting that in the form of CLE-Toledo-Detroit service. THEN it makes sense to connect the smaller metro areas. Also keep in mind that Akron could have some level of service by advocating for a station in Hudson and similarly Youngstown could push for a station on the current route at Columbiana, or even better, advocate a reroute directly through downtown (which requires rebuilding the Ravenna connector) - NONE of these requests have been made by the respective planning orgs or political leaders. The best chance for Akron. Canton, and Youngstown to get passenger rail service in the future is for Ohio to get good passenger rail service started and leverage that to build political support. And to do that, we’re need to start with the service most likely to be successful, as outlined above. Furthermore, the Ohio legislature is proposing $1B in funding for rural highways that will get very little use. Let’s make sure we’re focused on the actual headwinds to improving passenger rail service in this state. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
March 2, 20232 yr The Cleveland-Portsmouth Ohio & Erie Canal was built from 1825-32. It was feared by many that it would be a huge failure. Of course, it wasn't. Four canals were built as branches off it over the next 20 years. The Toledo-Cincinnati Miami & Erie Canal was a separate system that had its initial trunk route built 1825-45. It had two branch canals added from 1843-48. The point is, not everything gets built all at once. And some of it comes much later as more people become more comfortable with this unfamiliar transportation mode and the skeptics are muted. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 2, 20232 yr Train safety, Amtrak expansion moves ahead in transportation budget passed by Ohio House Anna Staver The Columbus Dispatch, March 1, 2023 Ohio's House of Representatives passed a $12.6 billion transportation budget Wednesday, and one provision paved the way for Amtrak to one day connect Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. “This is a huge jobs bill,” Rep.Tom Patton, R-Strongsville, said. “This is all about enhancing job opportunity and economic development in all parts of our state.” more: https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/01/train-safety-passenger-rail-in-transportation-budget-passed-by-house/69959608007/
March 2, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, Miami-Erie said: Train safety, Amtrak expansion moves ahead in transportation budget passed by Ohio House Anna Staver The Columbus Dispatch, March 1, 2023 Ohio's House of Representatives passed a $12.6 billion transportation budget Wednesday, and one provision paved the way for Amtrak to one day connect Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. “This is a huge jobs bill,” Rep.Tom Patton, R-Strongsville, said. “This is all about enhancing job opportunity and economic development in all parts of our state.” more: https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/01/train-safety-passenger-rail-in-transportation-budget-passed-by-house/69959608007/ Bad take from Rep Brian Stewart: “But Stewart and other Republicans aren't sure a new railroad system, even a high-speed one, is a good idea. "Like many Republican leaders for a very long time, I have concerns about the long-term wisdom of investing in a high-cost system," Stewart said. "I don’t want to see us take the first step today only to find ourselves diverting funds away from core services in 50 years to prop up the choo-choo train."’
March 2, 20232 yr 16 minutes ago, amped91 said: Bad take from Rep Brian Stewart: “But Stewart and other Republicans aren't sure a new railroad system, even a high-speed one, is a good idea. "Like many Republican leaders for a very long time, I have concerns about the long-term wisdom of investing in a high-cost system," Stewart said. "I don’t want to see us take the first step today only to find ourselves diverting funds away from core services in 50 years to prop up the choo-choo train."’ That is a really bad take. Is he five? Or does he think Republican supporters are five? How many cars would a high speed train take off the roads? Would taking cars off the roads make driving more pleasant for those who continue to do so? And would taking cars off the roads reduce wear and tear and thus future maintenance costs on those roads? Yes, yes, and yes. And I know -- you have to compare the cost savings in reduced maintenance on the roadways to the cost to maintain the rail lines, but it's also going to be much easier to charge rail passengers (actual users) a significant part of that cost (compared to the income tax everyone pays that bails out the highway trust fund).
March 2, 20232 yr 48 minutes ago, amped91 said: Bad take from Rep Brian Stewart: “But Stewart and other Republicans aren't sure a new railroad system, even a high-speed one, is a good idea. "Like many Republican leaders for a very long time, I have concerns about the long-term wisdom of investing in a high-cost system," Stewart said. "I don’t want to see us take the first step today only to find ourselves diverting funds away from core services in 50 years to prop up the choo-choo train."’ Guy who supports a brand new $1,000,000,000 rural-only highway fund questioning the wisdom of investing in a high-cost system. He demonstrates excellent self awareness. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
March 2, 20232 yr He's from Ashville, a part of Ohio that's been forgotten. And yes, I had to look up where it is (it's between Columbus and Circleville). Give that area a split of the Cardinal from Portsmouth, up to Columbus, Toledo and Detroit. Maybe that'll shut him up. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 2, 20232 yr On 2/28/2023 at 9:31 PM, vulcana said: Without an Akron/Canton/Youngstown/Wooster access,3C&D is just another alternative to I- 71. And an inferior alternative at that. A region with more than 1.7 million people and no Amtrak access. No wonder there is little enthusiasm in that particular area, that many people cannot be ignored, and rail service be effective. yeah, so that sounds like a commuter rail service to be thinking about to me, if not direct amtrak service. i have to take a ferry to a subway to amtrak -- it works great. so maybe back to thinking creatively about the cvsrr and the old youngstown-cle commuter row for starters ... and no doubt there are other and maybe better commuter rail or brt route options, i dk, but the point is regarding amtrak you don't need a station in your lap, just an easy and regular way to get to one.
March 2, 20232 yr that reminds me, i wanted to ask why can't the 3Cs+D train route go down to akron-canton before heading over to columbus and dayton? why does it have to follow I-71 down nowheresville to columbus? i assume there is a reason here why dayton gets amtrak, but akron-canton does not? is it they can't imagine swinging a train route around the cuyahoga valley for some reason, maybe?
March 2, 20232 yr 7 minutes ago, mrnyc said: that reminds me, i wanted to ask why can't the 3Cs+D train route go down to akron-canton before heading over to columbus and dayton? why does it have to follow I-71 down nowheresville to columbus? i assume there is a reason here why dayton gets amtrak, but akron-canton does not? is it they can't imagine swinging a train route around the cuyahoga valley for some reason, maybe? @KJP will know. My guess is "existing rails" on almost all of the proposed route, which minimizes start-up cost.
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