Once I thought I was out, they pull me back in.....

 

 

MORPC says Ohio's odds of landing two passenger rail lines are good

 

By Bonnie Meibers – Staff reporter , Columbus Business First

May 31, 2024

Updated May 31, 2024 12:50pm EDT

 

Columbus' odds of landing two passenger rail lines are looking good, according to William Murdock, executive director of the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission.

Murdock said the lines that would pass through Columbus are now in the federal process of evaluating passenger rail.

 

"We're in the pipeline to make things a reality," he said.

 

Two lines could go through Columbus – one would connect four Ohio cities and one would connect Ohio to other Midwest cities. Murdock said although they are in step one of a three-step process, passenger rail could be a reality by 2030.

 

MORPC and the city of Fort Wayne, Indiana, are the leads on the Midwest line, which would connect Chicago to Columbus to Pittsburgh. The Ohio Rail Development Commission is the project lead for the Cincinnati-Dayton-Columbus-Cleveland line.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2024/05/31/passenger-rail.html

How do you come up with odds for something like this?? Based on what? 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

How do you come up with odds for something like this?? Based on what? 

Lock in your Ohio Amtrak route odds now on Draft Kings, the official betting app of the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission. 

I want to bet on the number of stations propsed! Then parlay that into ridership projections!

I'm taking the simple parlay of Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland but I'm adding Dublin and excluding Hamilton. $2 on each leg.

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

I'm taking the simple parlay of Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland but I'm adding Dublin and excluding Hamilton. $2 on each leg.

A Dublin station on 3C&D would be a bad bet. It isn’t on that line. Should have gone with Delaware. Hamilton is at least in one of the potential Dayton to Cincy routes. 

Bipartisan group of Ohio Lawmakers call on ODOT to bring Amtrak service to Akron and Canton:

https://www.cantonrep.com/story/news/regional/2024/06/14/amtrak-expansion-akron-canton-supported/74099634007/

Here's the press release that triggered that and other articles

 

Rep. Sykes Leads Ohio Delegation Letter Urging Ohio Department of Transportation To Include Akron-Canton In Amtrak Expansion

https://sykes.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-sykes-leads-ohio-delegation-letter-urging-ohio-department-of-transportation-to-include-akron-canton-in-amtrak-expansion

 

The story was also picked up by the Akron Beacon Journal which was then picked up worldwide by Yahoo News

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ohio-federal-lawmakers-call-odot-201556927.html

^Maybe Goodyear has some lobbyists opposing this? They gotta sell lots-o-tires

43 minutes ago, metrocity said:

^Maybe Goodyear has some lobbyists opposing this? They gotta sell lots-o-tires

 

It's hard to serve Akron and Canton. You've got 2 million population metros at the corners of a triangle -- Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Columbus. Cleveland is at the top of the triangle. Pittsburgh to the right. Columbus to the left. Akron (600,000 metro population) and Canton (400,000 metro pop) are south of it. How do you serve it with the lines of the triangle? You can't, especially when neither Akron or Canton are on the main rail lines linking the points on the triangle. Here's where the current rail lines are:

 

 

 

Then consider the quality of the rail lines. The lines with more tracks and more trains on them are more capable of handling passenger trains without a complete rebuilding....

 

 

 

The current Capitol Limited runs between Akron and Youngtown but touches neither. Would realigning it through Cleveland-Akron-Canton-Pittsburgh generate better ridership than what's there now?

10 minutes ago, Mendo said:

The current Capitol Limited runs between Akron and Youngtown but touches neither. Would realigning it through Cleveland-Akron-Canton-Pittsburgh generate better ridership than what's there now?

 

Not necessarily. It travels our portion of this route in the middle of the night so its ability to attract ridership is very small here. And how would it be rerouted? If it served and ran between Akron and Youngstown, it would have to miss Cleveland and probably Toledo.

 

Note the Ohio rail maps above -- especially the ones showing the quality and capacity for high levels of service.

33 minutes ago, KJP said:

Not necessarily. It travels our portion of this route in the middle of the night so its ability to attract ridership is very small here. And how would it be rerouted? If it served and ran between Akron and Youngstown, it would have to miss Cleveland and probably Toledo.

 

Note the Ohio rail maps above -- especially the ones showing the quality and capacity for high levels of service.

 

Yeah it's all moot for one train in the middle night. I was assuming that much capital investment would also include increased frequency. Based on the maps above the NS line through what appears to be Salem and Alliance is double tracked to Canton. It looks like the Capitol runs part of this line now but turns north at Alliance. I would instead continue it west to Canton, bypassing the Youngstown area entirely. To your point the hard part would be finding a route north to Cleveland.

 

No idea how feasible it would be. Just an interesting thought if the money and interest was there. 

The Capitol (and future trains like an extended Pennsylvanian) could serve Youngstown's southern suburbs with a stop at Columbiana/SR11, Canton-area with its existing station at Alliance, and serve Akron's northern suburbs with a stop at Hudson.

As I stated previously, you can't omit the Akron/Canton area and Youngstown by extension and say that you have comprehensive rail service in Ohio. Akron MSA has 700,000, Canton MSA has 400,000, and Youngstown/Warren MSA has over 500,000. You are talking over 1.6 million people, that is not some Appalachian numbers but Urban. Even if the routes don't run N/S they should run E/W, N.Y./Pittsburgh/Chicago.

Let's keep things in perspective here. Given Ohio's situation of the past 50-plus years, we'll be lucky to get any new passenger rail service in Ohio. A comprehensive rail system is even farther beyond hope. If we do get an expansion of rail service here, its probably not going to be Amtrak. The only model that has shown the ability to achieve development in a state like Ohio is Brightline. Brightline doesn't build comprehensive rail systems. It builds a line. Whatever route Brightline picks in the next year or two (hopefully it will involve Ohio), it's going to pick one line or perhaps one with a branches to two major cities. An example is Chicago to Toledo with branches to Detroit and Cleveland that can act like three routes in one. The point is that the first line (whether it's in Ohio or not) is going to leave a lot of places out of it. I only hope that this makes the initial left-behinds want to work harder to expand rail service rather than get mad and try and sabotage those that are on track to get it first.

46 minutes ago, KJP said:

Let's keep things in perspective here. Given Ohio's situation of the past 50-plus years, we'll be lucky to get any new passenger rail service in Ohio. A comprehensive rail system is even farther beyond hope. If we do get an expansion of rail service here, its probably not going to be Amtrak. The only model that has shown the ability to achieve development in a state like Ohio is Brightline. Brightline doesn't build comprehensive rail systems. It builds a line. Whatever route Brightline picks in the next year or two (hopefully it will involve Ohio), it's going to pick one line or perhaps one with a branches to two major cities. An example is Chicago to Toledo with branches to Detroit and Cleveland that can act like three routes in one. The point is that the first line (whether it's in Ohio or not) is going to leave a lot of places out of it. I only hope that this makes the initial left-behinds want to work harder to expand rail service rather than get mad and try and sabotage those that are on track to get it first.

I think the word sabotage is not appropriate here. Political officials have an obligation to fight for fund to support projects they deem important for their constituents. I applaud the aggressive approach by Akron/Canton officials to make sure their voices are heard to secure funds for projects they believe are important to their districts. They were aggressive in obtaining funds for air service though Jobs Ohio, and now they are on the verge of being chosen for a new Breeze operations base, and now they are fighting for funds for rail service, that's not sabotage, that's knowing how to compete against the 3c's in Ohio. 

I don't think anything going on here is sabotage. But I have seen it happen before with passenger rail improvement efforts and it will happen again -- e.g.: Ohio rail advocates were pitted against one another in 1989, a decade after Columbus and Dayton lost Amtrak service. Ohio also narrowly lost out on getting 3C Corridor service in the mid-1980s. I was targeted by downstate folks in 1989 for advocating for Cleveland-Pittsburgh service because it wasn't 3C Corridor. It was considered a distraction. And they thought I was taking trains farther away from them when Amtrak announced it was forced by Conrail to relocate passenger rail from a route through Canton, Crestline and Lima. It moved those trains to routes farther north through Youngstown, Akron,  Fostoria, Cleveland, Elyria, Sandusky and Toledo, leaving a bigger void in the central part of the state. The Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers (AAO predecessor) President Tom Pulsifer, a friend of mine, had resigned. He lived in Xenia and he was tired of losing rail battles. He didn't want to get into another no-win situation. It took 10-15 years to overcome the internal fight and distrust between Central Ohio and Northern Ohio rail advocates, and our statewide advocacy efforts suffered because of it. While there may not have been an intent to sabotage, it was sabotage just the same.

 

And based on the Congressionals' letter yesterday that "Failing to provide such infrastructure would undoubtedly result in adverse consequences for the economic development of the region” suggests they are concerned about being left behind if other metro areas get passenger rail and they don't. I hope it doesn't turn into an us vs them fight because nobody wins them.

 

On 6/14/2024 at 10:28 PM, vulcana said:

As I stated previously, you can't omit the Akron/Canton area and Youngstown by extension and say that you have comprehensive rail service in Ohio. Akron MSA has 700,000, Canton MSA has 400,000, and Youngstown/Warren MSA has over 500,000. You are talking over 1.6 million people, that is not some Appalachian numbers but Urban. Even if the routes don't run N/S they should run E/W, N.Y./Pittsburgh/Chicago.

We aren’t going to leap from where we are today straight to comprehensive service. We have to focus on getting a single successful / good service first. The most likely path to that first step is by improving service on existing routes, where it won’t take as much investment to get to a respectable service. The next most likely path is the 3C&D, which would serve more than 60% of the state’s population - that’s HUGE for building the political will necessary to THEN take steps to build comprehensive service. 

On 6/15/2024 at 12:34 PM, KJP said:

I don't think anything going on here is sabotage. But I have seen it happen before with passenger rail improvement efforts and it will happen again -- e.g.: Ohio rail advocates were pitted against one another in 1989, a decade after Columbus and Dayton lost Amtrak service. Ohio also narrowly lost out on getting 3C Corridor service in the mid-1980s. I was targeted by downstate folks in 1989 for advocating for Cleveland-Pittsburgh service because it wasn't 3C Corridor. It was considered a distraction. And they thought I was taking trains farther away from them when Amtrak announced it was forced by Conrail to relocate passenger rail from a route through Canton, Crestline and Lima. It moved those trains to routes farther north through Youngstown, Akron,  Fostoria, Cleveland, Elyria, Sandusky and Toledo, leaving a bigger void in the central part of the state. The Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers (AAO predecessor) President Tom Pulsifer, a friend of mine, had resigned. He lived in Xenia and he was tired of losing rail battles. He didn't want to get into another no-win situation. It took 10-15 years to overcome the internal fight and distrust between Central Ohio and Northern Ohio rail advocates, and our statewide advocacy efforts suffered because of it. While there may not have been an intent to sabotage, it was sabotage just the same.

 

And based on the Congressionals' letter yesterday that "Failing to provide such infrastructure would undoubtedly result in adverse consequences for the economic development of the region” suggests they are concerned about being left behind if other metro areas get passenger rail and they don't. I hope it doesn't turn into an us vs them fight because nobody wins them.

 

I remember that and being called an elitist for the same reasons.

4 hours ago, neony said:

I remember that and being called an elitist for the same reasons.

 

I remember that too!

10 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I remember that too!

Battle scars - we gottem! BTW, I also remember a friend being told that "Our thing is the 3C Corridor" when he asked about service to other parts of the state. Parochialism is the enemy of progress. Difficult to find unity in the face of these squabbles, which is one reason why I am happy to be where I am these days.

On 6/16/2024 at 6:07 AM, Boomerang_Brian said:

We aren’t going to leap from where we are today straight to comprehensive service. We have to focus on getting a single successful / good service first. The most likely path to that first step is by improving service on existing routes, where it won’t take as much investment to get to a respectable service. The next most likely path is the 3C&D, which would serve more than 60% of the state’s population - that’s HUGE for building the political will necessary to THEN take steps to build comprehensive service. 

Yes, that all sounds good, but it is a lot easier to have a comprehensive plan where everyone is on -board, than a piecemeal plan where a substantial amount of people feels omitted and unenthused. That is why we are in the place we are now. We are talking about Ohio, where everything is political, and like it or not we have seven or eight City-states that are dug in. We are competing for funds against states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois that have a totally different dynamic. For rail service Ohio must speak with one voice, or we will be forever making plans and not progress.

Unless we really unload a pot of money in this state for rail, we're not going to be able to connect all of our 100,000population cities directly with interstate rail.  Even on old 1920s maps, when rail was in its heyday here, not every route was an interstate or fast route.  Even in Japan, which arguably over-invested in rail (including subway lines), not every train is an express.  Akron-Canton-Youngstown should band together to find ways to connect their transit systems to the mainline/interstate routes. 

 

On 6/14/2024 at 9:53 PM, KJP said:

The Capitol (and future trains like an extended Pennsylvanian) could serve Youngstown's southern suburbs with a stop at Columbiana/SR11, Canton-area with its existing station at Alliance, and serve Akron's northern suburbs with a stop at Hudson.

The Expert (hi @KJP!)  suggests nice stations at Columbiana/SR11, Alliance, and Hudson -- it would seem to make far more sense for these cities to band together to make that happen, and then connect their transit systems to those stations (and if they could form a "local/regional" rail system in the process, that would be great.  (I'd really like to see rail lines connecting Hopkins, CAK, and John Glenn to expand my direct-flight options, but I'm not holding my breath. And if there was a nice rail station at CAK, Akron and Canton should already have transit routes there or nearby.)

 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems like these three cities are just whining that they aren't on a rail route connecting them to Pittsburgh and Columbus/Cleveland, without pushing an actual proposal for how that could happen. As @KJP mentioned, there's no easy (relatively inexpensive) way to do it.  I'd send them back to the drawing board until they can come up with a plan and how they're going to contribute 1/3 of the cost (assuming we can get the state and feds to come up with the other 2/3).

Travel corridors that have or recently had good rail infrastructure are the most cost-effective places to gain it back or improve it for passenger rail. Those that didn't have to spend a boatload to build from scratch. Example #1: Miami-Orlando was sort of like that (the last 50 miles into ORL was a brand-new rail corridor along a highway) so that project cost a few billion.

 

Example #2: LA Basin to Las Vegas is definitely like that. Las Vegas didn't become a city until after the railroad construction era was over so Brightline has to start from scratch and use highway rights of way for much of its route. Even so, its still not going to get within walking distance of The Strip in Vegas or within 40 miles of Downtown LA (thankfully it will connect to a relatively frequently commuter railroad line that uses recently enhanced freight tracks). Despite those cost-savings measures, this is still going to be a $12 billion project for a 220-mile rail line.

 

Akron's well-engineered passenger routes (the B&O and Erie) ran from Chicago to Akron to Youngstown with the B&O going to Pittsburgh and on to Washington DC and the Erie heading up through New York's Southern Tier to Jersey City/Hoboken, NJ. The latter route is mostly gone west of Youngstown and pretty substandard until you get east to Hornell, NY. But it paled to New York Central's Chicago-Toledo-Cleveland-Buffalo-Albany-NYC mainline that was so well engineered that a passenger train hit 112 mph east of Buffalo in 1893 and a 180 mph test train ran in western Ohio in 1966. It's still a great piece of railroad.

 

Canton's well-engineered passenger route was the Pennsylvania RR which was the New York Central's competitor, traveling from Chicago-Fort Wayne-Canton-Pittsburgh-Harrisburg-Philadelphia-New York City. The Pennsy, like the NYC, had 15 passenger trains a day in each direction up until the 1950s and a half-dozen each way into the late 1960s. PRR was also a well-engineered railroad. It broke NYC's 1893 speed record in 1905 in western Ohio, when a late passenger train hit 127 mph. 

 

The sad irony in all of this is that there never was a decent railroad heading north-south linking Cleveland-Akron-Canton --- except for the Northern Ohio interurban which ended service more than 90 years  ago. Almost none of that ROW is around anymore. So we have to start from scratch. Very expensive.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

The irony in all of this is that there never was a decent railroad heading north-south linking Cleveland-Akron-Canton --- except for the Northern Ohio interurban which ended service more than 90 years  ago. Almost none of that ROW is around anymore. So we have to start from scratch. Very expensive.

How hard would it be to revive the interurban?  Run from Tower city  down the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad route.  The Google Maps shows a rail line just east of the highway by CAK -- looks like it runs from Canton north to Akron to around Arlington, just a few miles east of the end of the CVSR and it looks like there could be connecting trackage. 

 

If so, that suggests you wouldn't have to start from scratch, even if the rails aren't passenger-grade.  And if there is only one track, might have to run a pretty limited schedule, but it could be a nice start. 

Put a station by the rails, and then run a bus or a people-mover train from there to the CAK airport terminal.  At the Cleveland end, you just hop to the Red Line to get to Hopkins.

10 hours ago, vulcana said:

Yes, that all sounds good, but it is a lot easier to have a comprehensive plan where everyone is on -board, than a piecemeal plan where a substantial amount of people feels omitted and unenthused. That is why we are in the place we are now. We are talking about Ohio, where everything is political, and like it or not we have seven or eight City-states that are dug in. We are competing for funds against states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois that have a totally different dynamic. For rail service Ohio must speak with one voice, or we will be forever making plans and not progress.

We had a comprehensive passenger rail plan called the Ohio Hub plan 25 years ago. Having that plan did not result in getting Ohio passenger rail. The main problem isn’t that some potential supporters feel left out. The main problem is that state leadership has failed to make the necessary investments to get any decent service running. Including Akron and Canton in the plan isn’t going to change that main problem; but getting a successful service somewhere in the state has the potential to help Ohio leaders see additional opportunities with passenger rail. 
 

Refer to the examples in both North Carolina and Virginia. Both states started by making the necessary investments to get some service running. It proved popular enough to merit additional investments. And now both states are outright successful with passenger rail and are getting huge federal investments, enabling them to move forward with proposals to connect cities that are smaller than Akron, Canton, or Youngstown. 

A Canton-Akron-Cleveland only route wouldn't really be under Amtrak's purview in all likelihood; that seems like it would be something that would be more of a state-focused project due to its limited scope and lack of easy/good connections to the national rail network. I'd love to see commuter rail between those cities, but from a pure infrastructure and directness standpoint, 3C+D basically just needs to throw down some concrete slabs in Columbus and Dayton and you could start running trains tomorrow on that route. I'd hate to see perfect become the enemy of good when we finally have some actual momentum to link most of the state with rail transit again.

9 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

We had a comprehensive passenger rail plan called the Ohio Hub plan 25 years ago.

Do you have any maps or other information from this plan? It would be fun to look at. 

2 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

Do you have any maps or other information from this plan? It would be fun to look at. 

The 200 page Environmental Assessment is still on the FRA's website.

 

The Akron-Canton discussion reminds me a lot of Oxford-Hamilton down here in Cincinnati, except they are on a line with the Cardinal. BCRTA down here seems to be doing a great job of investing in improvements to their bus network, including a transit center in Oxford, and a new commuter bus route for Middletown & West Chester. I feel like this builds a lot of momentum for a commuter rail line to Hamilton, which happens to be the region's second largest city, with Middletown behind them even. Of course having the Cardinal and 3C+D run through there will help speed that all up.

What is the local political situation up north? Does having Akron and Canton in separate counties hurt that coordination between the 2, which could eventually lead to better commuter connections to Cleveland and/or Youngstown?

40 minutes ago, Dev said:

The 200 page Environmental Assessment is still on the FRA's website.

 

The Akron-Canton discussion reminds me a lot of Oxford-Hamilton down here in Cincinnati, except they are on a line with the Cardinal. BCRTA down here seems to be doing a great job of investing in improvements to their bus network, including a transit center in Oxford, and a new commuter bus route for Middletown & West Chester. I feel like this builds a lot of momentum for a commuter rail line to Hamilton, which happens to be the region's second largest city, with Middletown behind them even. Of course having the Cardinal and 3C+D run through there will help speed that all up.

What is the local political situation up north? Does having Akron and Canton in separate counties hurt that coordination between the 2, which could eventually lead to better commuter connections to Cleveland and/or Youngstown?

Akron and Canton are deeply engaged as one. Seeing themselves basically as one Metro area, the Akron-Canton Metroplex. The problem I see is how the whole rail transit marketing plan for Ohio is errant. The strategy should state: We are devoted to providing excellent rail service to every major Metro area in Ohio, understanding that some Metros will require more time and funding due to inadequate rail lines, but that is our goal, and we will achieve it. That is a lot more preferable than basically saying we are concerned about the 3C+D, and other Metro's are unimportant. That just won't fly, call it parochial or whatever. Remembering the Akron/Canton contingent also included politicians from Toledo, Akron/Canton, and other areas of the state. So, the 3C+D may still happen, but not without opposition.

6 minutes ago, vulcana said:

That is a lot more preferable than basically saying we are concerned about the 3C+D, and other Metro's are unimportant. 

 

Who is is the "we" here? I don't know anyone saying this.

Most of the opposition in Ohio I feel was due to automakers who seem to have given up the fight against rail since it's really bad PR especially as viewed by young people. 

2 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Who is is the "we" here? I don't know anyone saying this.

I do typically see a lot of comments on social media every time 3C+D, or any of the other plans, are reported on. Hecklers who insist that Akron is being ignored, that it has to be high speed, etc. I think the HSR people outnumber Akron comments, but it's close behind. I think the key part of this conversation has been how much of that actually reaches the political class.

7 hours ago, Dev said:

What is the local political situation up north? Does having Akron and Canton in separate counties hurt that coordination between the 2, which could eventually lead to better commuter connections to Cleveland and/or Youngstown?

Akron-Canton having a separate metropolitan planning organization from Cleveland is a MASSIVE problem for pursuing opportunities like this. We should be acting like one region, but too many people want to divy the region up. 

5 hours ago, vulcana said:

Akron and Canton are deeply engaged as one. Seeing themselves basically as one Metro area, the Akron-Canton Metroplex. The problem I see is how the whole rail transit marketing plan for Ohio is errant. The strategy should state: We are devoted to providing excellent rail service to every major Metro area in Ohio, understanding that some Metros will require more time and funding due to inadequate rail lines, but that is our goal, and we will achieve it. That is a lot more preferable than basically saying we are concerned about the 3C+D, and other Metro's are unimportant. That just won't fly, call it parochial or whatever. Remembering the Akron/Canton contingent also included politicians from Toledo, Akron/Canton, and other areas of the state. So, the 3C+D may still happen, but not without opposition.

Opposing 3C&D is a good way to ensure that Akron never gets rail service. We aren’t going to get more service in Ohio until we get a good starter service. Furthermore, literally no one is saying that they only care about 3C&D. It is a potential first step for Ohio passenger rail; other steps cannot come until the first step is made.
 

If more Ohioans had insisted to leadership to get the 3C&D up and running the last time Fed money was available (13 years ago), we would be 6-8 years into that service running and we could be having serious discussions now about a proper CLE-CAK regional rail service. Much the way North Carolina and Virginia are now expanding their rail. 

Dayton and Cincinnati don't tend to act as a regional unit and yet Dayton is included in many of the Amtrak updates. And that is because the most expeditious route between Columbus and Cincinnati is via Dayton. As KJP has said many times, it's not that anyone is purposefully leaving Akron/Canton off the table, it's that the existing rail infrastructure is less conducive to adding those cities to any intercity route that also connects to Cleveland or Columbus.  

Edited June 20, 2024Jun 20 by BigDipper 80

There were once four rail lines between Cleveland and Akron and three rail lines between Akron and Canton. There is no way to easily get a train from Cleveland to Akron anymore (the larger two cities) but there are still two routes remaining to get from Akron to Canton.

 

Each one of these railroad lines had their imperfections but ironically if we had stitched together their best parts we would have had a terrific rail quarter linking Cleveland, Akron and Canton.

 

I'll put together some google maps to show you where the rail lines are in were. Most of the old Northern Ohio interurban rail service in the CAC corridor ran on streetcar tracks in the city centers but had fast, dedicated rights of way in the countryside allowing regular 80 mph speeds. The most notable piece of this became Route 8 north of Route 303 to northfield. It was called the Crittenden Cutoff and replaced side-of-the-road operation along Old Route 8 

 

There was a pretty high-end study about developing Cleveland-Akron-Canton  commuter rail service done in the mid-1990s. I have a hard copy of it but we didn't do digital copies of studies back then. Unfortunately the rail line from Akron to Hudson has faded away since then.

 

I do have a digital version of the Ohio Hub regional rail plan. I'll figure out a way of hosting it somewhere and sharing a link to it.

14 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

If more Ohioans had insisted to leadership to get the 3C&D up and running the last time Fed money was available (13 years ago), we would be 6-8 years into that service running and we could be having serious discussions now about a proper CLE-CAK regional rail service. Much the way North Carolina and Virginia are now expanding their rail. 

First, I want to preface this by saying I would love to see robust passenger rail service in Ohio. My recollection of that Fed offer seemed great on the surface, but would have put Ohio taxpayers on the hook for operation, cost overruns, and maintenance. Remember that the only routes that were profitable for Amtrak were in the Northeast corridor. So turning down the offer seemed like a financially responsible decision. 

 

You can't really compare Ohio to North Carolina - Virginia. Those states have seen substantial population growth. Except for Columbus, the major cities in Ohio have been shrinking. If it became financially unfeasible for passenger service 50 years ago, it is probably even moreso now. What can change that? Either the cost of building and operating rail service needs to come down, or the demand to use it would have to increase to make it financially sustainable. I am going to submit this now and duck for cover.

Edited June 21, 2024Jun 21 by TMart
Added content.

It has been financially unfeasible to have the highways that we have but here we are.

Ohio's cities are the only parts of the state that are growing and Ohio is poised for more growth as climate change makes places down south uninhabitable. Despite losing population, Ohio still has more people than NC and has large metro populations. 

Younger people are opting not to drive at a growing clip and if Ohio wants to attract younger workers, we need rail and transit. You're just concern trolling.

14 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

 yet Dayton is included in many of the Amtrak updates.

 

Also, Dayton will have a fantastic station location right in its downtown whereas Cincinnati's will be at Union Terminal, which we all know is too far from downtown to help it. 

59 minutes ago, TMart said:

First, I want to preface this by saying I would love to see robust passenger rail service in Ohio. My recollection of that Fed offer seemed great on the surface, but would have put Ohio taxpayers on the hook for operation, cost overruns, and maintenance. Remember that the only routes that were profitable for Amtrak were in the Northeast corridor. So turning down the offer seemed like a financially responsible decision. 

 

You can't really compare Ohio to North Carolina - Virginia. Those states have seen substantial population growth. Except for Columbus, the major cities in Ohio have been shrinking. If it became financially unfeasible for passenger service 50 years ago, it is probably even moreso now. What can change that? Either the cost of building and operating rail service needs to come down, or the demand to use it would have to increase to make it financially sustainable. I am going to submit this now and duck for cover.

 

You can compare Ohio to NC and VA.  Ohio has more people and more metropolitan areas to connect.  That's why the state won funding 14 years ago to connect the three C's, because it was one of the most populated stretches in the country not connected by rail.  Yes there has been more population growth to the other states, but I'd say that if Ohio had more policies to promote the cities then there wouldn't be so much population loss.

 

In terms of operating costs, as I recall from this forum years ago, KJP pointed out that the annual state subsidy for running the train service would have been about $10m per year, easily manageable, and equal to what ODOT spends just on landscaping maintenance on the highways.  The state never seems to have a problem subsidizing roads, but then when you start spending on trains there's a double standard.

 

I like when someone challenges the advocacy. It gives us a chance to address the concerns. First, none of the metro areas along 3C are shrinking in population. And it's a travel corridor that ranks in the nation's top-20 in total travel between city pairs. It was ranked 10th a couple decades ago, according to USDOT, but since then it isn't growing as fast as others. So, since private capital follows public capital, states and regions that have provided quality rail infrastructure and quality services on it have seen private investment and business activity around rail stations and in rail travel corridors increase at rates above, often far above, the initial public investment. Recent studies have projected the same would happen here in Ohio. 

https://www.allaboardohio.org/_files/ugd/903aba_8754327435ed4c79bc94da63faae6a5a.pdf

Oh Ken, why do you have to constantly correct the ill informed or uneducated with all your nasty facts?😉

58 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Also, Dayton will have a fantastic station location right in its downtown whereas Cincinnati's will be at Union Terminal, which we all know is too far from downtown to help it. 

 

It's weird that that fact didn't hurt Union Terminal when it was seeing 50+ trains a day. Buses and ride shares exist. We can and should expand the streetcar. CUT is a great station and will hopefully soon be seeing multiple trains a day and can anchor an entire neighborhood revitalization.

15 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Dayton and Cincinnati don't tend to act as a regional unit and yet Dayton is included in many of the Amtrak updates. And that is because the most expeditious route between Columbus and Cincinnati is via Dayton. As KJP has said many times, it's not that anyone is purposefully leaving Akron/Canton off the table, it's that the existing rail infrastructure is less conducive to adding those cities to any intercity route that also connects to Cleveland or Columbus.  

Once again no one is talking exclusively about A/C/Y being a part of some intercity route from Cleveland to Columbus. The whole 3C+D route is fraught with its own challenges, namely I-71. But most preferrable routing for rail in the Akron/Canton/Youngstown area that I hear is the New York-Pittsburgh-Chicago corridor. And whatever the cost, the Akron/Canton contingent is saying it should be a part of the conversation. And what is not explained is if the 3C+D route is so desirable, then why has it not been in operation before?

22 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

It's weird that that fact didn't hurt Union Terminal when it was seeing 50+ trains a day. Buses and ride shares exist. We can and should expand the streetcar. CUT is a great station and will hopefully soon be seeing multiple trains a day and can anchor an entire neighborhood revitalization.

 

You know back in the day there were taxicabs sitting there waiting for people to walk out then the driver (in a driving cap) says "Where to, Mac?" when they get in the car.

Adding a single free bus (or allow anyone with a train ticket to board that bus for free if you don't want to make it free for everyone) that just runs between Union Terminal and Government Square around train schedules with a stop along Ezzard Charles and OTR that stops near major bus lines would be enough.

 

Here's a map I quickly put together. Add a stop at Ezzard Charles and Linn, and then a stop at Race and Court on your way to Government Square. Same for the reverse direction, but probably putting the stop on Central Parkway at Race (going to Central Parkway via Main). It's a 10 minute drive. Call it 15 minutes each way and a single bus can run that route on 30 minute headways.

2 hours ago, vulcana said:

And what is not explained is if the 3C+D route is so desirable, then why has it not been in operation before?

 

No offense, because you're not the first one to say it, but this is one of the least defensible things anyone could say. 

 

Do you realize how many successful initiatives (high-ridership rail lines, busy roads, popular new restaurant concepts, embraced technologies, etc etc) were provided where none had ever existed before? These things aren't the result of natural phenomena or karma. There are the result of human creativity and willpower that sometimes eludes us and other times successfully is amassed and when it does you get new stuff you get to enjoy.

The problem with high speed rail in Ohio is it would end up stopping way too many places.   For example, the chair of the Ohio House Transportation Committee is from Upper Sandusky.  You're going to bypass his area?

 

You're going to include Dayton and not Akron-Canton?

Edited June 21, 2024Jun 21 by E Rocc