If Ohio's application is accepted and the State's on a fast track toward implementing 3-C, 2011 is what I'm hearing, is Cleveland prepared to handle the service/traffic at the one platform "terminal" we now have?

Of course not. If Ohio's application for ARRA stimulus money goes forward, a significant amount will most likely be spent on the Cleveland station.

If Ohio's application is accepted and the State's on a fast track toward implementing 3-C, 2011 is what I'm hearing, is Cleveland prepared to handle the service/traffic at the one platform "terminal" we now have?

 

See:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,17673.0.html

Also, I hope Noozer is right that new service on the 3-C Corridor might prompt Amtrak to do something about its pathetic nighttime-only"service!

 

With current travel times of around 16 hours between Washington or New York, and Chicago and only one train a day in each direction, I'm not sure what you can do.  The current departure times for Chicago, New York and DC means that the better part of the trip is at night (when the train is running on time), and gives you a good part of the day in the cities. At current speeds, it would probably make more sense to add service from, say, Cleveland to Chicago, Cleveland to New York or Cleveland to Pittsburgh, than to increase the number of the longer distance routes. Westbound departures in Pittsburgh are barely acceptable at 11:30 at night, especially since cab service is so bad and traveling with kids is a major headache, which is a shame because kids are future voters.

 

I see a Kasich for Governor banner at the bottom of this page today.  Judging by his lack of support for rail when he was a congressman, this guy is not going to be supportive of passenger rail on the 3-C.  "A new way, a new day" my rear end. 

 

If we can't overcome the political hurdles in this backwards state and make the 3-C happen, I'll have to seriously consider moving elsewhere.  The problem is, things are becoming more and more of a mess just about everywhere. 

I see a Kasich for Governor banner at the bottom of this page today.  Judging by his lack of support for rail when he was a congressman, this guy is not going to be supportive of passenger rail on the 3-C.  "A new way, a new day" my rear end. 

 

Looks like he really isn't all that proud of being a republican.

So there is nothing keeping you in Ohio, and if there is no train, you will not stay?  Sounds like a weak reason to leave, but only you know best.  Are you from Ohio, or did you move here for other reasons?  I could understand moving for other reasons, family, job, taxes, etc.  Just curious. 

 

Now I could understand if you were considering leaving because there is only one professional sports team in the state!

I really don't have to justify myself to anybody Dan.  Suffice it to say, I'm a native Ohioan.  It may seem like a weak reason to you and some others, and that's fine with me.  If I want to seriously consider leaving for a more forward-thinking state for any reason, then as you stated, yes, I know best, and it's up to me.  I could go through all of the logic and reasoning, one of many reasons being how the problems of forced car ownership are going to get worse for me as the years progress, but it's really not what this thread is about.

 

The rub is, as I also stated, that there may really be nowhere else to go because everyplace has its own problems, and a lot of those problems are getting worse over time. 

 

Cheers

Why so sensitive?  Just asking a question, that obviously you've thought long and hard about.  Bye, have a safe trip!

^

yeah a bit suprising as this would really benefit the Columbus area. 

When you haven't had passenger rail of any kind since October 9, 1979, it's not hard to believe those numbers for Central Ohio...but they are still good numbers.

 

As for the Republican support...I think it shows that when it comes to everyday people...it isn't about politics... it IS about the recognition that there is a desire and need to have more and better transportation choices.

Wow, I'm amazed the majority of Republicans support it. That is a good sign. It sounds like both parties (at least the voters) are ready to move forward. At this point, I'm gaining optimism. I think we will see something built.

 

Unfortunately, it is also the case that 69% of Americans favor a public health care alternative, yet the Congress seems unwilling to pass it. I'm not trying to stray off topic but I am pointing out that our government doesn't seem to represent us anymore.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/08/03/editorial1.html

 

Friday, July 31, 2009

Let’s be bold, not typical, on streetcar

Business Courier of Cincinnati - by Doug Bolton Publisher

 

Now is not the time to give up on a Cincinnati streetcar.

 

With state and federal plans emerging to bring long-awaited rail service to our region, it’s more important than ever for a convenient and economic development-based transportation system to be built serving downtown Cincinnati.

 

Sure, the economy is generally burnt toast right now – but history tells us that some of the most important companies, inventions and decisions were made during great economic strife. The Cincinnati streetcar should join that list.

 

..........

An important development relating to Midwest high-speed rail....

 

Chicago's CREATE program lands $322 million from state of Illinois

Progressiverailrodaing.com

 

Chicago Region Environmental and Transportation Efficiency (CREATE) program representatives recently hailed the Illinois state legislature’s effort to appropriate $322 million for the more than $1.5 billion program, according to the American Short Line and Regional Railroad Association.

 

Read more at:

 

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=21106

Senate panel boosts spending for new transit starts 

railwayage.com

 

Transit new-starts funding got a strong boost when the Senate Appropriations Committee approved its version of the FY 2010 Transportation, Housing and Urban Development (THUD) Appropriations bill as Congress prepared to close down for its August recess.

 

Read more at:

 

http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/senate-panel-boosts-spending-for-new-transit-starts.html

August 1, 2009

Editorial / New York Times

 

 

America’s Not-So-Fast Trains

 

President Obama noted the other day that high-speed rail is not some pie-in-the-sky idea. “It’s happening now,” he said. “The problem is that it is happening elsewhere.” Japan, Spain, China and Germany are among those with superspeedy trains that rival air travel and easily eclipse the irritations of a car trip.

 

Read more at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/01/opinion/01sat3.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

Has the alignment between Cinicnnati and Dayton been selected?  There are two active railroads between the places..CSX and Norfolk Southern.  I was wondering what route is preferred.

No final route selection has been made.  There is still an environmental review of the corridor to be done before any route decision can be made.

but I am pointing out that our government doesn't seem to represent us anymore.

 

Yep.  This is 100% it in a nutshell...

 

 

No final route selection has been made.  There is still an environmental review of the corridor to be done before any route decision can be made.

 

This could get interesting.  I can see some NIMBY factors surfacing as part of this. 

 

That's already surfaced somewhat in Cincinnati because one of the routes uses the old Oasis line into the East side of downtown.... concerns from nearby residents about noise and diesel fumes (a bit overblown by them, but a concern nonetheless).  But from what I've been able to detect, that's about it.  Most everyone else wants to have access to a train.

From the Los Angeles Times

DAVID LAZARUS

 

U.S. public transit improvements will be a tough sell

 

August 5, 2009

 

It's hard to appreciate how truly pitiful our public transportation system is until you spend some time with a system that works.

 

Over the course of two weeks in Japan, I rode just about every form of public transit imaginable -- bullet trains, express trains, commuter trains, subways, street cars, monorails and buses. Nearly every ride was smooth, on schedule and affordable.

 

Read more at:

 

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus5-2009aug05,0,1206040.column?page=2

 

David Boyce, an adjunct professor of civil and environmental engineering at Northwestern University, said another key piece of the puzzle is land use. Americans prefer low-density communities and large lots for their homes.

 

 

Of course do -- when governments subsidize the shit out of sprawl.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus5-2009aug05,0,1206040.column?page=2

From the Los Angeles Times

DAVID LAZARUS

 

U.S. public transit improvements will be a tough sell

 

August 5, 2009

 

...You also have to discourage the use of cars -- which most Americans won't stand for -- and make our cities considerably less comfortable.

 

Good luck with that...

 

I'm not really sure what he means by that.  I was in central Munich last week and it was FAR more comfortable than any other central city I've been in.  Taking cars off streets doesn't make things less comfortable.

I hate to be cynical, but I simply can't imagine political leaders at the local, state or federal level telling voters that they support a big increase in gas taxes, sky-high parking fees and high-density neighborhoods.

 

So don't hold your breath for a public transportation system that rivals what our friends abroad enjoy. It's not going to happen -- at least not until a majority of us agree that we're prepared to accept the trade-offs necessary to bring about such a wholesale change in how we live and travel.

 

Until then, we'll always have Paris.

 

And Tokyo.

 

Except when the price of air travel goes through the roof, whether it's ten or fifty years from now, and only the wealthy can afford to travel to Paris or Tokyo.  Not that the average American is that well traveled at today's rates....

 

I must agree though, I'm cynical that our "leaders" will stand up and lead on these issues.  If we want to maintain a high quality of life for ourselves, our children, and our grandchildren, we're going to need better infrastructure BEFORE the price of oil goes through the roof.  The only way to pay for it is to raise taxes and encourage changes in our current behavior.  We need a little tough love (and HOPE, for a better future) from our leaders.

 

Living in high-density neighborhoods does not mean living without greenspace or privacy.  We need to build more examples of quality high-density neighborhoods in the US that people can see so that they can better imagine what living in such a place would be like.  Actually seeing it can only help make it desirable to the average American.

 

I also share the author's skepticism about achieving the kind of mass transit system across the country that will be the envy of the world.  It's going to be a long time coming.  But I fully expect that in ten or fifty years we'll get there.

Ohio's 3C Rail Corridor Project Seeking Input

http://www.urbancincy.com/2009/08/ohios-3c-rail-corridor-project-seeking.html

 

The Ohio Department of Transportation (ODOT) and the Ohio Rail Development Commission (ORDC) last week announced that they have jointly developed a website called 3CisMe, which will serve as the main hub for information surrounding Ohio’s proposed 3C (Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland) rail corridor. Although the name of the site is admittedly lame, the site itself is quite useful.

 

3CisMe is meant to both inform the public as to the progress of Ohio’s 3C rail line and serve as a sounding board for critics and boosters alike. In addition to being one way that the ODOT and ORDC will disseminate information on the progress of the project, a “public comment” section will allow citizens an opportunity for their voices to be heard. Some of those comments will even be featured in the application for funding through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (better know as the Stimulus Package). Ohio must turn in its application by October 1.

 

The current 3C proposal would allow travelers to travel between Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, Cleveland, and Toledo, collectively home to 60% of the state’s population. With stimulus funding, Ohio’s “quick-start” plan would be operational by 2011.

 

This system will link in with a larger mid-west network, servicing Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Louisville, Omaha, and Kansas City. The Chicago Network Hub would serve as the gateway to the west. The 3C corridor is well suited to link with the Keystone corridor, a network of rail lines servicing New York, DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and the rest of the east coast.

 

A March 2009 Quinnipiac University Poll showed that nearly two thirds of Ohioans favored re-establishing passenger rail in the 3C Corridor. Some want to see it happen because they know the economic development potential it creates, while others think the 3C corridor would be useful because they don’t want to put the mileage on their car, or they don’t have a car at all. While some want to travel by train because it is more relaxing than traveling by car or plane, others like the idea because it will allow them to be more productive, like this commenter from the site:

 

“Several times per year, I have to travel to Columbus for meetings and training. Whenever I go now, I lose at least 5 hours of productivity per trip. On the train, I could use a laptop to keep up with my e-mail, tend to paperwork, have telephone conferences, and sometimes even meetings with coworkers. These things can't be done in a car.”

 

Just one parting thought: There is a proposed amendment to the Cincinnati City Charter that would require a vote each and every time the city wanted to invest in a new phase of planning or constructing passenger rail. If it passes in November, neither the State nor the Federal government would be able to count on Cincinnati as a stop on the system. The timeline on this project is one that will require cities and states to efficiently compile an application for funding. If Cincinnati cannot commit in a timely manner (and it would not be able to commit without going to another vote if this passes), the Federal dollars will go to one of the other 278 projects in 40 states that have already submitted pre-applications as of July 17.

 

Cincinnati would be offered another transportation choice with rail, but the city could easily be left out if the amendment passes. Passing the amendment would reduce travelers' choices, and leave Cincinnati at a competitive economic disadvantage. For more information on the potential negative implication of the proposed amendment, please see the Cincinnatians for Progress web site. Though I disagree with them, for the other perspective on the amendment, please click here.

 

Note: to visit the 3CisMe site directly, go to http://3cisme.ohio.gov/ and please note that it does not include the www in front like many sites.

Caution, communication needed in 3C Corridor choices

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2009/08/caution-communication-needed-in-3c.html

 

City manager Milton Dohoney Jr. says that Cincinnati City administration recognizes the concerns voiced by residents of Columbia Tusculum and the East End over a proposal to run intercity passenger rail through their neighborhoods, but that their judgment should be reserved until more solid plans are completed.

 

The 3C Corridor rail proposal would connect Cincinnati, Columbus, and Dayton via a rail network using existing freight rail lines.

 

One such line, an existing 17-mile stretch known as the Oasis Line, branches off from the Norfolk Southern line near Evendale and extends through the neighborhoods of Columbia Tusculum and the East End to the Cincinnati riverfront, ending near the Montgomery Inn Boathouse.

 

Because the line is lightly used and bypasses the congested Mill Creek valley, it has become attractive to both Amtrak and the Ohio Rail Development Coalition (ORDC), the arm of the Ohio Department of Transportation studying and advocating for both freight and passenger rail development in the state.

 

To establish a temporary passenger station in the City of Cincinnati, the ORDC advocates a location near the Boathouse because of its access to the tracks and location on a primary arterial, Riverside Drive.

 

Several residents of the affected neighborhoods sent communications to City council, voicing concerns about the negative effects of train traffic on residential development and property values, impacts to Theodore M. Berry International Friendship Park, blight, noise, a lack of parking, and a lack of connections to other modes of transportation.

 

But in a memo to City council, Dohoney stresses that no permanent route or station site has been chosen.

 

"ORDC feels that, while a station at the Boathouse may be favorable for the start-up service, it should not be the location for the permanent intercity passenger rail station for the City of Cincinnati," he says.

 

Diminishing development

Towne Properties' Arn Bortz objects to the placement of the station because it says that "the City has spent the past thirty years recapturing its riverfront from industry".

 

In addition to a string of parks, Bortz says that a substantial amount of private sector development has followed, with more investment promised.

 

Towne Properties has built Captain's Watch and Foster's Point at Adams Landing along Riverside Drive, and plans more condominium development once the housing market picks up.

 

"The intrusion of a non-neighborhood friendly diesel train – it rarely stops – into the area threatens to destroy the potential for future development, negatively affect the quality of life for residents who've chosen to move into the area, and restrict access to the parks by the public at large."

 

Bortz also fears that the "temporary" terminal could end up not being so temporary after all.

 

"If there must be a 'temporary' solution to the east of our CBD, a terminal at Lunken Airport is a much more logical choice," he says. "It has adequate parking potential and does not sit in the middle of an intense area of new development."

 

Like many others, Bortz prefers the use of Union Terminal for a new station.

 

"While I understand that a fourth main may be a precondition for doing so, I urge you to become an advocate for such a strategy as it promises to do lots of good things for our City," he says.

 

Left out of the loop

Laurie Keleher, president of the East End Area Council, says that her community has been largely left out of the conversation as a potential resource and partner.

 

She says that the council does see the overall value of train service to the City, but is worried about safety, pollution, and noise.

 

"How fast would the trains be traveling through our community?" Keleher says. "How much noise is expected from horn signaling? Diesel engines are notorious polluters, is that being taken into consideration? How big will the station be and what is the expected impact on the Park?"

 

Like Bortz, Keleher wonders what could be done to locate the passenger station at Union Terminal, and wonders if stimulus funding can be used to add an additional track to the congested Mill Creek valley.

 

In her opinion, not enough input has been sought in making routing decisions.

 

"We should all be working together to not only seek a 'temporary' solution, but to also plan for the long term success of passenger rail in Ohio," Keleher says.

 

In order to gather more information from City, state, and federal sources, the East End Area Council has formed the Eastern Riverfront Community Rail Study Committee.

 

While the investigative committee gathers information, Keleher asks that the City "avoid taking a position on where any aspects of the 3C project should be located".

 

Access to the river

Rick Griewe, a developer and self-proclaimed river lover who has helped secure capital funding for such projects as Sawyer Point, Yeatman's Cove, and the National Steamboat Monument, has his own idea for how rail should work in the City.

 

And it doesn't involve rail lines between residents, developable land, and one of the City's greatest natural resources.

 

"Heavy diesel powered trains will create a barrier between downtown and the riverfront for pedestrians and will lower the value of real estate along the Oasis Corridor which is one of the most valuable development sites in the region," Griewe says.

 

Griewe notes that $156 million of residential and commercial projects have been completed between Broadway and Delta Avenue, with another $635 million in projects proposed.

 

Additionally, $36 million has been invested in riverfront parks with another $60 million on the table.

 

Electrified light rail or streetcars are the answer, Griewe says.

 

"The track lays flush in the streets, it's quiet, no smell and this type of rail can stop and start quickly," he says. "This technology has fueled transit-oriented development throughout the nation and could jumpstart the proposed residential projects along the Oasis Corridor."

 

His idea includes a temporary station that could link to the light rail/streetcar line at Wilmer Avenue, one block from Lunken Airport.

 

"The 79-mph Amtrak trains could start here and, if the Ohio Rail Development Coalition has the funds to provide connecting service to downtown from Wilmer, build light rail into the Transit Center under Second Street or streetcars that hook into the proposed Downtown/Uptown system," Griewe says. "This investment would not be wasted, Hamilton County's Eastern Corridor Project could expand the light rail service to the eastern suburbs."

 

Griewe also believes that the best location for a 3C and Midwest Regional Rail Initiative passenger station is Union Terminal, and the Mill Creek valley could accommodate a fourth track.

 

"Everyone in Cincinnati should support the State's effort to build modern passenger rail," he says. "It will connect our beautiful river city with the Midwest!"

 

Advocates exist

David Lyman, a writer and interested Columbia Tusculum resident, supports the preliminary 3C Corridor proposal because he wants to see the entire Lunken-Downtown corridor improved for all sorts of rail traffic.

 

"I see that improvement as a necessary precursor to light rail along the same route," he says, adding that the addition of rail would lower automobile traffic along Columbia Parkway, Kellogg Avenue, and Riverside Drive. "In time I would like to see easier, greener commuting between the east side and downtown, both for environmental reasons and in terms of making my neighborhood - Columbia Tusculum - more robust."

 

To Lyman, rail represents potential.

 

"There was a time not so long ago that Eastern Avenue in Columbia Tusculum was a bustling residential and commercial center much like Ludlow Avenue in Clifton is today," Lyman says. "I think light rail is key to that happening."

 

He also doesn't buy the arguments about increased noise and decreased safety, and says that the benefits of increased property values and a diminished reliance on cars outweigh any fears.

 

"Barges on the river already create more noise than we're likely to have from train traffic," Lyman says. "And besides, we're not talking about dozens of trains a day. If a high-speed train is routed through Columbia Tusculum, it certainly won't be traveling at those high speeds in such a densely populated area."

 

A fundamental misunderstanding of rail travel has led to many of these fears, Lyman says.

 

"When we want to go somewhere, we don't turn to trains as a solution," he says. "They simply haven't been a reasonable option in this area for more than 50 years."

 

Our love of the freedom that automobiles give us and the project's price tag also contribute to public skittishness, he says.

 

"Too often these days, we look only at the short term ramifications of an idea," Lyman says. "As citizens, we've begun to think like politicians - only as far as the next election or then next tax bill in our mailboxes. If citizens who came before us had thought that way, we wouldn't have the magnificent network of parks that we do in Greater Cincinnati. We wouldn't have the system of Interstate highways. Those things aren't direct generators of profit."

 

What those things do, Lyman says, is make our communities better places.

 

"They make our lives easier," he says. "In my opinion, these are the sorts of projects that should be the highest priorities of tax dollars. Tax dollars need to lead the way, to do those things that profit-making, bottom-line-oriented businesses can't justify."

 

In Lyman's opinion, any attempt to restore train service to Union Terminal should be off the table – not only are The Banks, Dixie Terminal, or the Public Landing better locations, but they're in the center City too.

 

"I don't see Union Terminal as the best site as the terminus of this line at all," he says. "The building has a new use now. Trains may be its history, but they are secondary. Or an even lower priority. If you've ever arrived on the train from Chicago at 3 a.m. or so, it is obvious that train travelers are a complete afterthought."

 

Then, there are purely aesthetic reasons.

 

"The trainyards and backsides of factories are not what I want people to see as they're arriving in Cincinnati," Lyman says. "I'd rather they come down the valley leading to Lunken Airport."

 

Dohoney addresses concerns

Dohoney says that the City is hearing and considering residents' concerns.

 

"The City understands that residents living along Riverside Drive have concerns about the proposed new service, including the speed of the trains, the size of the trains, noise, air quality, and the size of the station," he says. "Similarly, the Cincinnati Recreation Commission and the Parks Department have also expressed concerns regarding parking impacts on International Friendship Park and Bicentennial Commons."

 

Right now, Amtrak is working on an operational plan that will provide further details on the proposed service.

 

Additionally, both Amtrak and ORDC are pursuing diesel multiple unit equipment (DMU), which doesn't require a locomotive, for the start-up service.

 

Dohoney says that this is not the same technology powering the Cincinnati Railway Company dinner train that currently utilizes the tracks.

 

"If the decision is made to use a diesel locomotive to pull passenger cars instead of the DMUs, the locomotives will be new state-of-the art locomotives," he says. "The locomotive used to pull the Dinner Train is in the second generation locomotive class which was constructed in the 1960s. Today's locomotives have much higher emission standards."

 

Dohoney also says that he has heard concerns about a drop in property values that 3C trains could cause in the neighborhoods through which they pass.

 

"From examples in other parts of the country, we do not see this trend," he says. "In cities such as Portland, Oregon, new condos have been built near the Amtrak station which has significant rail service. Residents see the service as a convenience."

 

Finally, Dohoney says that the use of Union Terminal as a passenger station is likely out of the question because its only current train service, Amtrak's Cardinal line, stops on the CSX mainline only long enough to load and unload passengers.

 

With no passenger storage tracks, Union Terminal would need to negotiate property acquisition with both CSX and Norfolk Southern.

 

But Dohoney's ultimate argument is that the Oasis Line is already an active railroad.

 

"The railroad operator, the Indiana and Ohio Railroad, has the ability to use the line in any way which makes good business sense for the company, which includes hosting passenger operations," he says. "The proposed Amtrak service is four trains per day – two in each direction."

 

City council passed a resolution supporting the 3C Corridor plan, in principle, in February.

 

Ohio launches site

The Ohio Department of Transportation and ORDC have started a new website for the 3C Corridor project called 3C is ME.

 

The site features links and resources for the plan, as well as a comment box that allows users to send feedback directly to the ORDC.

 

Users also can find details about other high-speed passenger rail initiatives proposed throughout the United States.

 

Later this fall, the U.S. Department of Transportation and Federal Railroad Administration will determine which states receive a share of the $8 billion in American Recovery and Reinvestment Act funds made available for passenger rail.

 

The State of Ohio filed its pre-application for these funds on July 10.

 

The 3C Corridor plan is seen as the first step to development of the Ohio Hub system, a $3 billion-$4 billion transit project composed of high-speed trains running along 1,244 miles of track and serving 46 stations.

I'm curious.  Lyman says that even Dixie Terminal would be a better choice than Union Terminal.

 

How is that even possible for the 3-C Corridor?  I don't get it.

I'm curious.  Lyman says that even Dixie Terminal would be a better choice than Union Terminal.

 

How is that even possible for the 3-C Corridor?  I don't get it.

 

Easy. Get a big crane to lift each car of the train off the tracks one-by-one, rotate it 90 degrees, and plug it into the side of the building where the TANK bus ramps used to be!

^But what about that valuable parking to the rear!

Towne Properties' Arn Bortz objects to the placement of the station because it says that "the City has spent the past thirty years recapturing its riverfront from industry".

 

I wonder what image is in her head (and others) when they imagine a station? We need to do a better job of providing an accurate image of what a train station will probably be. Here's some examples:

 

Emeryville, Calif., this entire station area was a decayed, polluted industrial area that has seen a new Amtrak station built followed by some very high-end housing, offices and retail. In other words, the diesel powered trains aided in converting this area FROM industrial to an attractive mixed-use setting:

 

 

 

 

 

Now we go to Nashville, whose station might be appropriately scaled for the level of service for the 3-C Corridor Quick-Start. Not to mention the fact that Nashville's station is used by diesel-powered trains, is at a riverfront location with parks and bikepaths which mix well with connecting bus layover points, a parking area and pedestrian amenities:

 

 

 

 

Next stop is one of the outlying stations on the new RailRunner line of diesel powered trains linking Albuquerque and Santa Fe. While the climate doesn't permit lush landscaping, these are still unobstrusive stations:

 

 

 

 

Closer to home, the Akron station on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, which offers five-day-a-week service between Cleveland, Akron and Canton, has some rustic-designed stations and has spurred some high-end economic development such as this condo development and ground-floor restaurant on Howard Street on the north side of downtown (next to a river and park, no less!):

 

 

 

Talk about unobstrusive! If you stood 100 feet away from the High Point, NC Amtrak station, you'd probably never even know where the rail line was! This view provides the answer:

 

 

 

What's that Amtrak train doing in the middle of a public park? Actually, the park was built around the Davis, Calif. train station, which is popular with students from the nearby university:

 

 

 

Even Amtrak's standardized stations from the 1970s and 80s can be relatively attractive, like this one in Dearborn, Mich. This hardly looks like an industrialized area. Instead, it's got some nice landscaping and well-manicured lawns which all fits in with the surrounding office buildings:

 

 

 

Lastly, here's a station on the Los Angeles - San Diego "Surfliner" Amtrak line (I forget which station-Oceanside, maybe). The tracks were lowered here to create a grade-separated crossing with a busy street in the distance. The entire area, notably around the station, has been attractively landscaped so that it is a magnet for economic development:

 

I will be so pissed if Cincinnati passes there amendment to the city charter and we lose out on federal funding for the 3C Rail project.  If that happens, maybe we should just by-pass Cincinnati and connect Columbus and Dayton to Covington Kentucky. 

I sure as heck hope it's not the plan to give the major stops on the 3C Corridor bullcrap stations like these:

 

 

 

 

Probably not the last one, but why would you spend boo-coo dollars for a huge station that serves only 4-8 trains per day? That Nashville station was probably a $10 million station. That's probably more than anyone wants to spend for a temporary station near the Cincinnati Boathouse area. Hopefully whatever is built there can be converted for other uses after the trains are relocated to CUT or the Longworth Hall area (the latter was recommended in a city-funded study from a few years ago).

 

The only reason why a big "station" like the North Coast Transportation Center in Cleveland is being considered is because it would double as a pedestrian link and extension of the Malls between the renovated convention center and the tourist attractions at North Coast Harbor. If it wasn't for that, you'd probably see plans for a much more modest station in Cleveland -- and I'll bet that's going to be case until the NCTC can be afforded.

 

Want to see what passed for a station in St. Louis for the past 30 years, despite being served by 8 trains a day (the top end of what's proposed for 3-C Quick Start)?

 

 

That was replaced by this $26 million station, the Gateway Transportation Center (but you can see the old Amtrak station at left), which now serves 12 Amtrak trains a day plus all Greyhound buses to/from St. Louis:

 

 

But my point was to show smaller, unobstrusive, attractive stations could be built near the Boathouse and not look like an industrial area.

I sure as heck hope it's not the plan to give the major stops on the 3C Corridor bullcrap stations like these:

 

Having seen the Nashville Station up close, I would have to say that it would be better than the depressing, ugly building that is Cleveland's current station.  I would have no problem with a station similar to Nashville's being a temporary structure until the NCTC is built, or being a temporary station in any of Ohio's major cities.  Just my opinion...

 

I will be so pissed if Cincinnati passes there amendment to the city charter and we lose out on federal funding for the 3C Rail project.  If that happens, maybe we should just by-pass Cincinnati and connect Columbus and Dayton to Covington Kentucky.

 

The more I think about this, the more I think this is a great idea.  Who knows, the State of Kentucky might even be willing to pay to get the 3-C trains across the Ohio River.  Maybe ODOT/ORDC should be talking to KDOT? In fact, it would be a good strategy.  Start talking to Kentucky now and make sure the press is notified that the two states have "entered discussions about the possibility of terminating the train in Covington" if the initiative passes.    The message wouldn't have to be any more detailed or or any more certain than "Nothing is certain at this point.  Ohio is just evaluating potential options" in case the initiative is approved, and "we need to start evaluating them now since we'd like to see a 2011 start-up for the trains."

 

In the mid-1990s, a 3-C Corridor proposal that gained momentum before Gov. Voinovich's chief of staff Paul Misfud killed it (ie: the late, convicted felon Paul Misfud) had to be scaled back because of complications in getting four daily passenger trains through the rail traffic congestion of the Mill Creek valley. So the southern station of 3-C Corridor was proposed to be Sharonville. To travel south of there without MAJOR track/signal construction (nearly doubling the cost of the entire 3-C project) would have added up to an hour to the 3-C Corridor schedule.

 

Getting passenger trains south into the City of Cincinnati will be enough of a challenge without having to deal with a City Charter amendment that is uniquely punitive against a single mode of transportation.

Getting passenger trains south into the City of Cincinnati will be enough of a challenge without having to deal with a City Charter amendment that is uniquely punitive against a single mode of transportation.

 

Hence the idea  "enter into talks with KDOT" before November and make sure the press knows about it.  Regardless of the ultimate outcome (which wouldn't even have to be reached until sometime after November--actually, given the short time frame a conclusion probably couldn't be reached by then anyway), it would drive home the point that Cincinnati could be easily passed by, ignored, and forgotten if the amendment passes.

Nation needs to establish two or three 'model' HSR lines, Brown says

 

On Tuesday, Rep. Corrine Brown (D-Fla.) reiterated what’s commonly known in rail industry circles: She’s a staunch supporter of high-speed rail (HSR) and commuter rail.

 

Read more at:

 

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=21133

Where would we sound off about the idea of having the train go into Kentucky to get it noticed by those who have the power to do this? 

Join up with Cincinnatians for Progress....

 

http://www.cincinnatiansforprogress.com/

Just think of how it would look on the train schedule:

 

Covington, KY (Cincinnati, OH)

 

It may not seem like much, but in any city, that would say to me, "Huh, seems like the larger city wasn't as serious about establishing a viable stop."

 

That's exactly what I think when most of our concerts stop in Kentucky towns across the river, instead of here in Cincinnati.

 

Cincinnati really needs to get serious about becoming more than a city full of itself, and start thinking about connectivity and appeal to a larger region.  I feel that it is very important for Cincinnati to establish its own connection to the 3-C.

I doubt there would ever be a stop in Covington if you had to go through the effort to get through the Millcreek valley to the a station stop in Cincinnati anyway.    The CSX mainline has heavily utilized and would require a additional capacity for a terminal location.  I am surprised that nobody has raise the issue of the former N&W line to Broadway Commons which had been envisiond for use as a  light rail corridor.  While the Baldwin Complex on I-71 is a problem, the rest of the corridor is generally in tact and NS has stated it would abandon the line between Ivorydale and Norwood.  While this would be more expensive to bring back than the Oasis line etc, it could have a terminal in close proximity to the CBD which could link directly with buses, streetcar and surface parking while allowing someone to walk from the station to Fountain Square.

The expense of reactivating the line into Broadway Commons is a key factor. If the capital improvement costs are much higher, the ridership would probably have to be proportionately higher to ensure 3-C Corridor's competitiveness with other applicants nationwide.

 

Operating on CSX via West Middletown and Hamilton will add route miles, running time and operating cost to the 3-C Corridor -- and potentially capital cost. If that more populous routing adds ridership compared to the faster, more reliable routing on NS through downtown Middletown, then it's worth doing.

 

The NS is probably more reliable for a few reasons:

 

+ NS is more friendly to passenger trains than CSX which often sidetracks them or puts unecessary heat-related (any time air temps are above 90 degrees) speed restrictions on passenger trains on its tracks;

 

+ Switching back and forth between track owners (and thus between dispatching systems and radio channels) invites trouble. It's bad enough the traditional 3-C Corridor mainline is split between NS (south of Columbus) and CSX (north of Columbus), plus mixed segments in downtown Columbus and into the City of Cincinnati;

 

+ NS's mainline south of Dayton is double-tracked with crossovers and higher-grade signaling called a Track Control System which allows dispatchers to see where trains are by looking a computer screen and can throw switches from his/her work station. It's a very high-capacity, high-quality line.

In the mid-1990s, a 3-C Corridor proposal that gained momentum before Gov. Voinovich's chief of staff Paul Misfud killed it (ie: the late, convicted felon Paul Misfud) had to be scaled back because of complications in getting four daily passenger trains through the rail traffic congestion of the Mill Creek valley.

 

I'm always a little leery of attributing the death's of these quality rail passenger & transit projects to one man (or woman).  If 1 man kills it, we let him do so; for if the will of the public and other leaders fought hard and loud enough against the anti-rail buttheads, would run for cover -- much like what we're experiencing now w/ AAO-generated momentum (education and advocacy); today the would-be train killers have been isolated and exposed for the small minds that is theirs -- they are now mere pipsqueaks.

The NS line between Cincy & Dayton was built in the 1870s as the "Short Line" as a quicker, more direct connection between the cities. so it would seem ideal for passenger travel just due to the inherent alignment.

 

####

 

Oasis Line NIMBYs:  suprised they havent hooked up with COAST yet on that charter amendment since it would put the kabosh on passenger rail through their neighborhoods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The politics of what Brown is talking about is difficult.  There will be the tendancy to spend the wealth to get votes for program, which is why you dont see well-funded "ultimate solution" demonstration programs that benefit just a few Congressional districts.

I'm not sure that they are that strong a NIMBY crowd and to live their you've got to be pretty urbanist in mindset. We do have to think carefully and plan carefully use of the Oasis corridor because of phenomenal success developing that corridor over the last decade plus.

Note how those new condos back up onto Columbia Parkway.  The noise there must be unbearable at times.  I don't think they would be totally against a carefully planned route.

Probably not the last one, but why would you spend boo-coo dollars for a huge station that serves only 4-8 trains per day?

 

Because a major problem with passenger rail in this country is perception that it is a relic form of transportation.  If we want to get people past that stigma we're going to have to start building passenger rail systems that look new and modern compared to the old versions they may be used...this includes the stations.  If we're going to build something that looks similar to what they may have taken their family to for a dinner ride, or some other tourist thing, then I think we've failed.

Design is like art, so there is always going to be a differing variety of opinions on station design. Yes, it's important to look forward. But many persons also are very heavily influenced by the tremendous history of railroads in this country and many want to pay homage to that. Neither view is right; neither view is wrong. A modern or an historic station can contribute to local economic development.

 

It will be up to local communities to decide their station designs. And a primary factor for determining station design is what meshes best with its immediate surroundings, what first-impression a community wants to make about itself and what a community can afford to build.