Hope you enjoyed the respite over the past year.....

 

Gasoline heading above $3 a gallon by this summer

By Chris Kahn

Associated Press

 

POSTED: 02:50 p.m. EST, Feb 22, 2010

 

Associated Press writers Pablo Gorondi in Budapest, Hungary and Alex Kennedy in Singapore contributed to this report.

 

NEW YORK: Retail gas prices likely bottomed out last week, and they're again headed to above $3 a gallon this summer, experts said today.

 

Pump prices typically rise this time of year as refineries switch to a more expensive grade of gas. But this year, prices are increasing after millions of Americans received pink slips and kept their cars in the driveway.

 

''If you look at demand, it's just abysmal,'' said Fred Rozell, retail pricing director at Oil Price Information Service.

 

What's pushing prices higher isn't American consumption. It's the crude oil that's used to make motor fuel, Rozell said. Crude is an international commodity that's become ever more expensive as demand grows in China.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/84976662.html

I'm not in favor of stealing money from programs designed for highway use for rail use, and that's my final point.

 

Gee, not one cent of the tax on the gasoline that goes into my lawnmower, benefits my lawn. And as far as I am aware, railroad diesel fuel taxes don't go to the railroads. Cigarette taxes don't go to tobacco growers and liquor taxes don't go to vintners and distillers. Doesn't seem fair.

 

He never said "and vice versa", and I think that unfortunately that's the viewpoint of too many.

Liquor taxes promote temperate consumption and help fund enforcement of our three tiered beverage distribution system.

The Mansfield article states that of 3, Hottinger is the only one with a real open mind to things. The other two will vote along the "party line".

 

People in the districts of the other two need to contact them and ask them to vote yes.  We need an effort like the one that happened last year that generated 5,000 calls to the legislature, except we need to target all three of these guys.

 

 

Too bad the Enquirer just came out with an editorial slamming the project.

 

All the Cincinnatians on this forum who support the project need to flood the Enquirer with e-mails. 

I would say the issue regarding CUT and the missing funding on bringing the 3C to Cincinnati helped drive that editorial more than anything.

 

Probably.  That's still a narrow-minded view, though.  They should advocate for a local effort to get the funding from the state and/or feds to do just that.  It's just easier to slam something than do the work that would bring about a positive outcome. 

>railroad diesel fuel taxes

 

Marine fuel does pay directly into waterways infrastructure (dredging, dam maintenance, lock operation, etc.).  Specific fuels are died different colors so that the Coast Guard can easily detect if fuel is being transfered between modes on rivers or out at sea, which is primarily an environmental hazard but also works to allow different rates of taxation.  An old trick was that fishing boats would trade tugboats or freighters fish or shrimp or lobsters for fuel.  There are so many thousands of gallons of fuel on a tugboat or freighter that the company would never know it was gone and meanwhile the boys would be doing some serious eating.   

 

Governor defends plans for passenger rail

Wednesday,  February 24, 2010 2:51 AM

By Jonathan Riskind

 

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

Gov. Ted Strickland said he understands that Republican critics of his plan for passenger rail service in Ohio have a "legitimate need for more information."

 

But the Ohio Democrat said he hopes Senate President Bill M. Harris, R-Ashland, will accept the explanation that using $400 million in federal stimulus money to help launch rail service between Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati and Dayton achieves a number of worthwhile purposes - most of all positioning Ohio for the future.

 

Full story at:http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/02/24/strickland-defends-passenger-rail-plan.html?sid=101

I don't know if this was posted earlier and I just missed it (i swear I read the whole thread), but...  The $8 billion HSR stimulus averages out to $26.67 per person.  In Ohio our 11 million people account for $293 million of that stimulus bill.  I'd rather net $100 million than lose the entire $293 million to another state. 

 

another way to look at it, $400 mil / 11 mil people = $36.36 per person.  The feds are basically giving us our tax money back plus an additional $10 for every person in the state.  When I say 'giving us our tax money back' I mean the portion of our taxes that are going to the general HSR stimulus.

 

Its not like we can give the $400 mil back and have it be a $7.6 billion stimulus.  The $400 million is used whether we take it or not.  I say we use it for Ohio.

Correcting Kasich

 

According to Gongwer news service, Ohio Republican gubernatorial candidate John Kasich was asked on Tuesday about the 3C (Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Cincinnati) start-up passenger rail service when he attended the Ohio Farm Bureau Federation's Ag Day at the Capitol. His response:

 

"We ought to take the $400 million and we ought to pave our roads, our highways, which adds to greater productivity in this state, helps you to get things to market. We ought to be in the business of fixing our bridges, our infrastructure," he said.

 

All Aboard Ohio's response:

"Under a law written by Kasich's former Congressional colleagues, Ohio must return any of the unused $400 million to the Federal Railroad Administration which will redistribute it for another state's passenger rail improvements," said Ken Prendergast, executive director of All Aboard Ohio. "Rail is infrastructure and it's been ignored by Ohio policymakers for too long. Our neighboring states didn't win anywhere near as much funding [see below] as Ohio did to create jobs and would love a shot at winning our $400 million in federal rail money."

 

The U.S. Public Interest Research Group, Smart Growth America, the Center for Neighborhood Technology and others all say stimulus dollars for trains and transit projects create twice as many jobs dollar-for-dollar as stimulus funding for roads and bridges. Train and transit investments also keep America's economic wealth at home by reducing our dependency on foreign oil, including oil from some politically unstable parts of the world.

 

Here is how Ohio's neighboring states, which have used state funding for decades to improve their passenger rail services, fared in receiving funds from the $8 billion federal pot of money for higher-speed rail:

 

Indiana

Requested: $2.8 billion

Received: $71.4 million (2.5% of requested)

 

Michigan

Requested: $1.8 billion

Received:  $40 million (2.2% of requested)

 

New York

Requested: $11.6 billion

Received: $151 million (1.3% of requested)

 

Pennsylvania

Requested: $6.65 billion

Received: $27 million (0.4% of requested)

 

Ohio received 71 percent of its original $564 million request to pay ALL of the start-up costs of a foundation service for higher-speed passenger rail and for enhanced freight rail infrastructure beginning as early as late 2012. Ohio will also tap existing federal funds to pay 80 percent of 3C's operating costs for the first three years, leaving just $3 million per year for the Ohio Department of Transportation to cover from its growing LOGO sign program. Also, ODOT is starting planning and design work this year for 90-110 mph trains in 3C plus three other Ohio rail corridors: Cleveland-Pittsburgh; Toledo-Columbus; Toledo-Cleveland. Construction could begin by 2015.

 

All Aboard Ohio is watching to make sure that all elected officials and candidates use accurate information to debate Ohio's proposed 3C "Quick Start" and emerging 3C "higher-speed" passenger rail projects.

 

For more information, contact:

 

Ken Prendergast (KJP)

Executive DirectorAll Aboard Ohio

12029 Clifton Blvd., Suite 505

Cleveland, OH 44107

(216) 288-4883

[email protected]

www.allaboardohio.org

An answer to Mr. Kasich's nonsense....

 

Government: $400M is for trains, not Ohio roads

The Associated Press

4:31 PM Wednesday, February 24, 2010

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio — The federal government says Ohio must use $400 million in stimulus money for a new passenger train project, not on highways as suggested by Republican gubernatorial candidate John Kasich.

 

Kasich, a critic of the train project, said this week the money ought to be used to repair roads and bridges.

 

Rob Kulat, a spokesman for the Federal Rail Administration, said Wednesday the money can't be reallocated. It was part of $8 billion that the stimulus bill set aside for rail projects in the United States. The awards were given to 31 states based on competitive bids.

 

Find this article at:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/ohio-news/government-400m-is-for-trains-not-ohio-roads-566140.html

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Yet Kasich says, well Strickland can ask the feds to change it to "flexible funds." I guess the former Congressman forgot what a law is and how difficult it is to change one.

Now Kasich is starting to piss me off.

Remarkable stupidity for someone who once served in Congress and should know better.  Of course, if there was that kind of flexibility for federal grants of any kind and the $$$$ started showing up where they shouldn't be....you know Kasich would be the first to cry "corruption!"  What a putz.

This column wanders all over the place and uses inaccurate data just to slam the GOP. Not too surprising coming the Daily Kos. Not a very good or useful piece, but I'm posting it here to add it to our "collection".......

 

Sunday Train: Attacks on HSR in Flyover Country

by BruceMcF

Sun Feb 21, 2010 at 03:56:01 PM PST

Burning the Midnight Oil for Living Energy Independence

 

Today's Sunday Train is focusing on attacks that have been launched against Ohio's 3C plan, which was granted $400m in the HSR round of Stimulus II grants. There are attacks from Republicans, engaged in their usual games of negotiating in bad faith and basing critiques on focus group testing of talking points rather than substance. There are attacks from "transport experts", calling for all of our HSR spending to be focused on the coasts with no systems developed to serve the needs of flyover country.

 

There is even an attack launched against the award of funds to Ohio by President Obama's Department of Transportation paradoxically by a kossack who goes by the name of "Ohiobama".

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/2/21/163035/437

An opportunistic jerk who loves the sound of his own voice. I met Kasich in person and was not impressed.

If it was not real, the logic to use money for roads would be laughable. Instead, it is really disturbing to know we have people running the state who think like this.

^ Does ODOT even conduct an environmental impact statement on road building? I doubt it.

 

Uh. Yes, every road construction project, even minor bridge replacements, must undergo a EIS. That's a standard for any state regarding highway development.

An opportunistic jerk who loves the sound of his own voice. I met Kasich in person and was not impressed.

It is unfortunate we only have two choices: John or Ted.

 

Does anyone know the annual cost of the 3C or the best possible upgrades that could be made without laying new tracks?

Total annual operating cost is estimated by Amtrak to be $29 million per year, of which $12 million would come from passenger fares. The rest would come station concessions, on-board concessions, wi-fi, advertising, sponsorships, federal funding (at 80 percent for the first three years) and state funding (at 20 percent for the first three years and 100 percent thereafter).

 

Now, just because Amtrak says the total operating cost will be $29 million doesn't make it so. States like North Carolina, Oregon and Washington found that Amtrak maintenance costs, train cleaning costs, food/beverage costs etc. were too high. So those states contracted out those activities and saved money. I don't know how much money, however. Ohio is exploring those options.

 

3C infrastructure improvements are outlined in detail on pages 9-11:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/StatewideRailPlan/Documents/Ohio%20State%20Rail%20Plan%20Appendices.pdf

Pro-rail advocates would win more support if they touted the contracting out to the private sector aspect of any potential plan.

 

Thanks for the link KJP

Pro-rail advocates would win more support if they touted the contracting out to the private sector aspect of any potential plan.

 

It's been touted. But just because it's being sold, doesn't mean the critics are buying.

Remarkable stupidity for someone who once served in Congress and should know better. Of course, if there was that kind of flexibility for federal grants of any kind and the $$$$ started showing up where they shouldn't be....you know Kasich would be the first to cry "corruption!" What a putz.

 

Is this what he's going to run on?  While I'm admittedly a partisan of Strickland, I'm not quite sure what the Republican message is supposed to be.  Vote for me and we'll eliminate the state income tax?  Anyone who thinks that taxes don't pay for useful things is already voting for Kasich, and anyone who spends two seconds thinking about it can't take Kasich seriously.

 

How do you run against a train that no one knows anything about?  It might poll low support, but that's only because the average voter has little to know understanding about government process, and don't think things that they don't use are useful.  As soon as it gets built, people are going to ask why the train doesn't go faster or come to their city.  The people who like 3C rail really like it.  The people who don't just consider it another gov't program they don't like.  There are far more rail fanboys than there are anti-rail hacks.  I don't really see the value to Kasich in opposing it.  I suspect he's coming out against it out of a knee-jerk reaction to siding with the Congressional Republican leadership  (maybe out of fear of the tea-party types, but I doubt it).  Or he's just not that smart.

 

I don't see how Kasich beats Strickland in SE Ohio.  Coming out against projects that benefit the 3C's + D sounds like a way to net zero votes, particularly when stories about decreased air travel service are easy for the Strickland camp to toss back at you if they want to engage on the subject (I'm thinking of ads where airport workers and business people say how much decreased air travel has hurt their business and how much they want the train). 

 

Strickland has positioned himself well on public education at a time when people are shifting to public schools and education is one of the few major functions of state government.  What's Kasich got, vouchers?  Is it 1997?

 

The fact that the most of us learned about Ohio politics during the 90's suggests that this state is default Republican, but I think that was much more a function of the culture wars of that period than anything else.  I don't see Kasich (who doesn't have great name rec compared to Strickland anyway) giving anybody a reason to vote for him.  In Massachussetts, Brown gave people a reason to vote for him vis-a-vis his competitor (by campaigning hard).  How do you beat someone who is more well-known than you are if you don't offer a new vision?

Pro-rail advocates would win more support if they touted the contracting out to the private sector aspect of any potential plan.

It's been touted. But just because it's being sold, doesn't mean the critics are buying.

Unlike most of the public, I actually follow 3C news and this is the first time I've noticed anyone touting the contracting out of rail service to the private sector. 

Remarkable stupidity for someone who once served in Congress and should know better. Of course, if there was that kind of flexibility for federal grants of any kind and the $$$$ started showing up where they shouldn't be....you know Kasich would be the first to cry "corruption!"  What a putz.

I'd be willing to bet he does know better, but he also knows that the average voter doesn't know anything about it. He's just playing the populist role knowing that right now there's a lot of anger about perceived waste within the government.

 

Is this what he's going to run on?  While I'm admittedly a partisan of Strickland, I'm not quite sure what the Republican message is supposed to be.  Vote for me and we'll eliminate the state income tax?  Anyone who thinks that taxes don't pay for useful things is already voting for Kasich, and anyone who spends two seconds thinking about it can't take Kasich seriously.

Yes, but does the average voter think about it? I doubt the average voter will hear tax cut and wonder "what services are they going to cut to keep that budget balanced?"

 

How do you run against a train that no one knows anything about?  It might poll low support, but that's only because the average voter has little to know understanding about government process, and don't think things that they don't use are useful. As soon as it gets built, people are going to ask why the train doesn't go faster or come to their city.  The people who like 3C rail really like it.  The people who don't just consider it another gov't program they don't like.  There are far more rail fanboys than there are anti-rail hacks.  I don't really see the value to Kasich in opposing it.  I suspect he's coming out against it out of a knee-jerk reaction to siding with the Congressional Republican leadership  (maybe out of fear of the tea-party types, but I doubt it).  Or he's just not that smart.

Right or wrong, a large part of the public considers the 3C a waste of money. These are the same people that think public transit is a waste of money. We've got lots of them in Ohio and they make up a significant portion of voters. By pointing out the problems with the 3C he can point out something that appears to be a waste of money and argue that Strickland is a poor choice to oversee a tight budget. To the uneducated (on this issue) this will make sense.

 

^I fail to understand why a subtle argument about who is more competent to oversee a tight budget will find more resonance with the public than arguments about education.  Either people pay attention to the details of policy or they don't.  You've got to present more detail about why someone is inherently going to prefer Kasich, a former Congressman who comes from who knows where, to Strickland, a former congressman that you've actually heard of because  he is Governor and comes from SE Ohio, simply on the basis of the claim that Kasich will make that he is a better manager.

 

True independents make up an extraordinarily minor part of the electorate.  There are a bunch of people who say they are independent but vote like partisans.

 

Anyway, relating to 3C, like I said, the people who care about 3C as their primary issue are much more likely to swing toward an individual candidate who supports it (or against one who opposes it) than someone who is against additional spending and dislikes 3C because of that.  Like I said, Kasich's position strikes me as more a factor of aligning against the national Democratic brand rather than a particularly insightful way to carve out a piece of the Democrats base.

 

As I said, most voters don't care about 3C because it doesn't exist.  They don't care and aren't interested because they can't see it and use it.  But how do you get people pissed off enough to vote for you against something that is purely theoretical?  Why alienate the core supporters when the anti-tax and anti-spending crowd has no other candidate to support?  Kasich's position is lazy rhetoric based on lazy thinking that the electorate is too lazy to pay attention and he won't suffer for it.  You don't get somewhere running a campaign based on laziness.

Kasich's core in the collar counties of Cincy, Dayton, and Columbus plus western Ohio which outnumbers SE Ohio. The battle will be for what's left of the GOP in Hamilton and Franklin and how much of the collar in NE Ohio is competitive.

 

If there was a way to use the 3C investment for a quick start suburban heavy rail (i.e. run a morning commute and evening commuter train in and out of the big three along the improved 3C line) instead of all intercity it might mitigate the collar county opposition to this.

^I fail to understand why a subtle argument about who is more competent to oversee a tight budget will find more resonance with the public than arguments about education.

It doesn't matter why. That's just the way it is especially with the people who are leaning against the 3C.

Kasich's core in the collar counties of Cincy, Dayton, and Columbus plus western Ohio which outnumbers SE Ohio. The battle will be for what's left of the GOP in Hamilton and Franklin and how much of the collar in NE Ohio is competitive.

 

If there was a way to use the 3C investment for a quick start suburban heavy rail (i.e. run a morning commute and evening commuter train in and out of the big three along the improved 3C line) instead of all intercity it might mitigate the collar county opposition to this.

 

The funding grant for the 3C is dedicated to the project and cannot be used for even another rail project, for which Mr. Kasich has been rightly criticized.

 

However, the reality of an operating 3C rail service can be a catalyst for prompting efforts to fund other projects such a commuter rail:  West Shore Corridor, Cleveland-Akron-Canton commuter rail... 

^I fail to understand why a subtle argument about who is more competent to oversee a tight budget will find more resonance with the public than arguments about education.

It doesn't matter why. That's just the way it is especially with the people who are leaning against the 3C.

 

My point was that you seem to be arguing that the average voter is more discerning to arguments that favor Kasich rather than Strickland, and you point to the idea that Kasich can make the case that he will be a better choice to oversee a tight budget and that's why bashing 3C is smart politics.  My suggestion is that average voter doesn't make these distinction, that people who think "3C=waste of money" and nothing deeper than that are already voting for Kasich.  What's the advantage then of alienating a hard-core group of dedicated issue voters simply to score political points in a state election that the national GOP can make for you?

 

Kasich's core in the collar counties of Cincy, Dayton, and Columbus plus western Ohio which outnumbers SE Ohio. The battle will be for what's left of the GOP in Hamilton and Franklin and how much of the collar in NE Ohio is competitive.

 

Granted that that's where Kasich's core support lies, but I would argue (without any supporting data obviously) that the consistent support of SE Ohio values voters was what helped to consistently tilt Ohio Statewide races to the GOP in the 90s.  The increasing importance of the Democratic HamCo vote (and perhaps FrankCo too, I don't know much about that) combined with a native of SE leading the Dem ticket has changed things.

With Kasich playing to his political base on the far right, all Governor Strickland has to do is grab the moderate/middle ground with the appeal of the 3C:

 

1. An all-weather "leave the gas pump and the car behind" option for travel.

2. Jobs created in the industrial sector related to passenger rail development not only in Ohio but across the nation.....(there are almost 200 companies in Ohio directly or indirectly tied to either Amtrak or the railroads in general...and they will benefit and be primed to expand business and create jobs, as well as make existing jobs more secure for a long term.)

^Coming at them with individual stories about declining Ohio air hubs and small businesspersons excited about the opportunity 3C is a good start.  Hope for the future is a good draw.

This column wanders all over the place and uses inaccurate data just to slam the GOP. Not too surprising coming the Daily Kos. Not a very good or useful piece, but I'm posting it here to add it to our "collection".......

 

 

Why attack a friend of rail like Daily Kos?  It was obviously a satirical piece (using terms like "Ohiobamans")... As for inaccuracies, help me out.  As for attacks on Republicans, well, don't they deserve to be attacked?  Republican John Kasich who's come out of the box in the gov's race with the usual Republican BIG LIE about the flexibility to use the rail stimulus money for other things.  Republicans, as usual, are taking something that could be positive and progressive for this state and are making it controversial; it's par for the course for them and their stranglehold on power, esp downstate, has kept this state in the dark ages...

 

I'm sorry KJP, I'll take Daily Kos over the Enquirer or any Republican-leaning publication.  If we're going to publicly campaign for this critical project, which Republicans are doing everything they can to kill -- along w/ more and more of the local media behind them -- we have to discern who are our friends and who is the enemy.

 

I have no enemies. I have only those I haven't reached yet.  :wink:

This column wanders all over the place and uses inaccurate data just to slam the GOP. Not too surprising coming the Daily Kos. Not a very good or useful piece, but I'm posting it here to add it to our "collection".......

 

Why attack a friend of rail like Daily Kos? It was obviously a satirical piece (using terms like "Ohiobamans")... As for inaccuracies, help me out. As for attacks on Republicans, well, don't they deserve to be attacked? Republican John Kasich who's come out of the box in the gov's race with the usual Republican BIG LIE about the flexibility to use the rail stimulus money for other things. Republicans, as usual, are taking something that could be positive and progressive for this state and are making it controversial; it's par for the course for them and their stranglehold on power, esp downstate, has kept this state in the dark ages...

 

I'm sorry KJP, I'll take Daily Kos over the Enquirer or any Republican-leaning publication. If we're going to publicly campaign for this critical project, which Republicans are doing everything they can to kill -- along w/ more and more of the local media behind them -- we have to discern who are our friends and who is the enemy.

^Don't make rail a political left vs right issue, PLEASE. That just makes it harder for those of us who try to convert people from anti- to pro- even harder.  All you'll do is solidify opposition and marginalize the undecided.

 

I have no enemies. I have only those I haven't reached yet.  :wink:

^KJP has it right. :wink:

Interesting that Rep. Hottinger doesn't sound like he's closing the door on voting yes.... read on.

 

Hottinger vote could derail Ohio passenger train proposal

 

Representative might be key on Controlling Board

BY KENT MALLETT • Advocate Reporter •

February 26, 2010

 

NEWARK -- State Rep. Jay Hottinger, R-Newark,

could decide the fate of a plan to connect Cleveland,

Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati with passenger

rail service.

 

Gov. Ted Strickland, a Democrat, lobbied the White

House for $400 million in federal stimulus money

for the project, Congress provided it, the

Democratic-controlled Ohio House supports the

project and the Republican-controlled Ohio Senate

wants further study.

 

Full story at: http://www.newarkadvocate.com/article/20100226/NEWS01/2260335

^Even more intersting (to me anyways) is Rep. Hottinger's view of seeing more planning for commuter rail projects.

I'd be even more interested is if he wants to fund them.

 

Commuter rail may do more for taking cars off roads than intercity rail, but that doesn't automatically translate into more economic development benefits. Commuter rail can answer the needs of traffic engineers, but does it answer the need of economic development professionals, travel/tourism bureaus or cities seeking to make themselves more accessible to the outside world? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.

 

What Hottinger isn't seeing is how commuter rail and intercity rail often work well together in offering a hierarchy of services and shared facilities. He should take a look at the timetables for the Sounder commuter rail in Seattle, Virginia Railway Express south of Washington DC, or GO Transit in Toronto to see how the intercity and commuter/regional rail system work in concert with each other. And, in most cases, the intercity rail service provided the initial infrastructure for the commuter/regional system to build upon.

I'd be even more interested is if he wants to fund them.

 

Very true and it would be interesting to hear his comments on that issue.  Certainly, commuter rail projects should provide both traffic benefits and economic development benefits.  His comments are interesting in that what appears to be the one republican vote up for debate is the guy that sits in a district that could possibly have a strong commuter rail market (Newark to Columbus) that provides traffic and economic development benefits.  It has the appearance of a "quid pro quo."

Governor defends plans for passenger rail

Wednesday,  February 24, 2010 2:51 AM

By Jonathan Riskind

 

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

Gov. Ted Strickland said he understands that Republican critics of his plan for passenger rail service in Ohio have a "legitimate need for more information."

 

But the Ohio Democrat said he hopes Senate President Bill M. Harris, R-Ashland, will accept the explanation that using $400 million in federal stimulus money to help launch rail service between Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati and Dayton achieves a number of worthwhile purposes - most of all positioning Ohio for the future.

 

Full story at:http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/02/24/strickland-defends-passenger-rail-plan.html?sid=101

 

I'm having quite a fun time battling the naysayers in the comments section, but I shouldn't have all the fun to myself. You should join in. I go by Eastside Willie.

It's a Saturday night.

I'm having quite a fun time battling the naysayers in the comments section, but I shouldn't have all the fun to myself. You should join in. I go by Eastside Willie.

 

I agree. I sound like a broken record to say again that many of the comments shared on this forum are preaching to the choir...and therefore, sometimes need to be directed at the other forums to counterbalance the information----so that we are not having one side: the ill-informed/skeptical or swing supporter side.

 

Once again, I see the naysayes logic and opposition downright laughable.

This doesn't have to be a left/right issue, and I think we're better off if it isn't.  My parents are hardcore conservatives who would love to see passenger rail in Ohio.  They rave about rail systems overseas.  They just aren't excited about this 3-C plan.  They raise issues of practicality and suggest that local rail is a necessary predicate.  They point out that the numbers are especially unfavorable for groups or families, who would pay separate fares on a train but not in a car.  This, on top of having your car upon arrival, might really make it tough for those traveling together to choose 3-C.  Considering how many pleasure trips are taken solo (very few), this doesn't bode well.  Perhaps offering a "family" rate would be a good bipartisan selling point.   

 

These aren't naysayers.  These are Ohio conservatives who are ready to support a rail plan.  But they're not biting on this plan at this time.  This plan doesn't even excite a lot of pro-rail liberals.  Approaching this with an "us vs them" mentality could cause long-term damage by alienating those who are moderate on the issue.  Some of their points make sense, and those points should be dealt with seriously, not via "shut up, rail is good."  Many of them don't disagree that rail is good.  Leave behind those who do.  The discussion needs to move forward.  For that to happen, we can't treat every practical complaint about this plan as an ideological assault on rail travel.

State Rep. Jay Hottinger has a reputation for being obstinate.  Having him make decisions on the rail issue is unfortunate.

This doesn't have to be a left/right issue, and I think we're better off if it isn't.  My parents are hardcore conservatives who would love to see passenger rail in Ohio.  They rave about rail systems overseas.  They just aren't excited about this 3-C plan.  They raise issues of practicality and suggest that local rail is a necessary predicate.  They point out that the numbers are especially unfavorable for groups or families, who would pay separate fares on a train but not in a car.  This, on top of having your car upon arrival, might really make it tough for those traveling together to choose 3-C.  Considering how many pleasure trips are taken solo (very few), this doesn't bode well.  Perhaps offering a "family" rate would be a good bipartisan selling point.    

 

These aren't naysayers.  These are Ohio conservatives who are ready to support a rail plan.  But they're not biting on this plan at this time.  This plan doesn't even excite a lot of pro-rail liberals.  Approaching this with an "us vs them" mentality could cause long-term damage by alienating those who are moderate on the issue.  Some of their points make sense, and those points should be dealt with seriously, not via "shut up, rail is good."  Many of them don't disagree that rail is good.  Leave behind those who do.  The discussion needs to move forward.  For that to happen, we can't treat every practical complaint about this plan as an ideological assault on rail travel.

 

I see your points and personally, I'm not making this a right/left issue, nor forwards, backwards ...up or down......... however, I'll bet a case of beer that if it will start to become that sort of issue---and I have a hunch some would like to make it so...that such sentiment would mostly come from the right.  Let's watch and see...

A high-speed rail station proposal from Helmut Jahn: Not perfect, but it gets the civic debate on the right track

 

Chicago architect Helmut Jahn has a promising but imperfect plan for a high-speed rail station in Chicago. It’s not much more than a sketch, certainly not a finished blueprint. Yet it deserves to be taken seriously, if only because it should kick-start a much-needed debate over the right place for the hub of the Midwest’s just-funded high-speed rail network.

 

Jahn, who has long excelled at transportation facilities, has prepared the plan for Reuben Hedlund, a civic-minded zoning lawyer who headed the Chicago Plan Commission from 1991 to 1997. Hedlund does not appear to be in a position to profit from the project, which he calls the Daniel Burnham Central Station in honor of the great turn-of-the-century Chicago planner. So the proposal can be considered clean, even if it would likely send the values of nearby properties skyrocketing.

 

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/theskyline/2010/02/a-highspeed-rail-station-proposal-from-helmut-jahn-not-perfect-but-it-gets-the-civic-debate-on-the-r.html

 

    Some news from the Railroad forum demonstrates the problems in Cincinnati.

 

    A CSX train came apart on the Ohio River bridge this morning. The problem is apparently a broken drawbar. A repair crew is on the adjacent track working on the problem. Rail traffic on the bridge is closed.

 

    At the same time, there is some problem on the Norfolk Southern Erlanger Hill track, which connects to the NS Ohio River bridge.

 

    Trains are parking for the night all over. The system has had a breakdown. Hopefully, the problems will be solved soon and traffic will be cleared up. The freight railroads can tolerate a certain amount of trouble.

 

    But imagine if there were passenger trains stuck in this mess. We would be looking at 10 hour delays. Passenger rail on existing freight tracks in the Cincinnati area today is pretty much a non-starter.

But imagine if there were passenger trains stuck in this mess. We would be looking at 10 hour delays. Passenger rail on existing freight tracks in the Cincinnati area today is pretty much a non-starter.

 

Typical Cincinnati attitude.  It's too difficult, so let's just forget about it.  How about we identify the problems, come up with a solution, and do whatever needs to be done to get it implemented?  Of course, how is this any different than a major pile-up on I-75, or that bizarre crash of a truck carrying a locomotive (!) that took out one of the I-74/275 bridges near Miamitown?  People deal with the backup when something bad happens, detours are set up, news reports are made to those who aren't stuck that they need to find an alternate route.  If a passenger train got so badly stranded, they could bring some buses and taxis up to wherever they are so they can be taken to their destination.

But there are alternatives for Interstate 75. If there is a severe crash that takes 15 hours to clear (which never happens), then there are many alternate routes -- Interstate 275, 71, and local streets. Rail? Not so much. There are few connections left in the local area that a train can take to bypass a derailment -- most of the time, they are forced to remain and park, because rerouting can either consume too much fuel or cause disruptions elsewhere in the system.

 

They can always get buses for the trains, as often is the case when Amtrak is severely delayed in some cases, but not being able to pull in at a reasonable time or coming in via a different mode of transit (which requires transferring, of course), wastes time and money.

 

Of course, building a new, dedicated system is much preferred but vastly expensive. And without that, the 3C line will encounter congestion and delays, especially if it goes to CUT.

Editorial: Train questions fair, but there are answers

By the Dayton Daily News | Monday, March 1, 2010, 01:52 AM

 

The case for 3C passenger trains has, let’s face it, been underwhelming in impact.

 

One poll showed a tiny majority opposed to spending state money on passenger trains. Around the state, various commentators have been cold. Republican legislators generally are critical or unimpressed.

 

The federal decision to fork over the $400 million to build a line connecting Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati (3Cs and the D) didn’t resolve the issue. An odd entity called the state Controlling Board must sign off. And, under a deal made when the legislature decided to apply for the stimulus money, the “yes” voters must include Republicans.

 

Full editorial at:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/opinion/entries/2010/03/01/editorial_train_questions_fair.html?cxtype=feedbot