March 30, 20232 yr Great article KJP. If this is truly the Browns game plan to eventually have the city & community rally to support a new stadium then there is still the issue of that price tag will be paid for. Either way KJP great article with a lot of insight and i think that you are now the Browns public enemy # 1
March 30, 20232 yr I trust Ken over the Haslems 1000%. It’s totally believable. And hey, if the stadium stays where it’s at, which I’m fine with, why wouldn’t we be able to add land going north into the water? Let’s add 20 acres of land, shaped as multiple piers, with beaches in between. Problem solved. Edited March 30, 20232 yr by marty15
March 30, 20232 yr Thanks for saying. And, once again, an article of mine is at the bottom of a page! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 30, 20232 yr no idea how it would be paid for, but that spot for a domed arena across the shoreway from burke is as great a site as any. anybody got a bil or three laying around to help these haslam bros out?
March 30, 20232 yr although it makes me wonder if the current stadium area is redevelopable for residential and the like? i had assumed the fill there was more solid, but it sounds like the infilled land is almost as bad as burke infill. if its mush your basement is gonna get flooded. otoh if its all good then they just need to close burke, move the port over there and tear down the stadium, all quite doable, and bazinga — some of, if not thee very best, urban waterfront property in the usa becomes open. it would quickly become cleveland’s near future battery park city.
March 31, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, mrnyc said: although it makes me wonder if the current stadium area is redevelopable for residential and the like? i had assumed the fill there was more solid, but it sounds like the infilled land is almost as bad as burke infill. if its mush your basement is gonna get flooded. Any development there would probably be like the Harbor Verandas just north of the Rock Hall -- no basement. Just a slab. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 31, 20232 yr i wonder if the haslams or anybody has done soil testing around the stadium area? i would imagine somebody must have over the years.
March 31, 20232 yr 5 hours ago, KJP said: Browns, city want you to rule out FES renovation By Ken Prendergast / March 30, 2023 A COMMENTARY “I stand by my sources.” I write that after this week’s statement from Browns owners Dee and Jimmy Haslam which followed NEOtrans’ most recent article about the Browns’ desire for a new all-purpose stadium for Cleveland. At the National Football League’s (NFL) Annual Meeting, the Haslams said “They remain committed to upgrading the Browns’ stadium — with the primary goal of renovating FirstEnergy Stadium in accordance with the City of Cleveland’s plans to upgrade waterfront area between Lake Erie and downtown.” MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/03/30/browns-city-want-you-to-rule-out-fes-renovation/ There, @KJP, I quoted you- we’re on the same page! Bravo on a gutsy article and a Vulcan-worthy display of logic. Maybe the Haslams don’t consider you Public Enemy #1 - but a great advance PR man in their “long game”. - for how well you articulate why the value of that lakefront parcel is actually much lower with the stadium sitting on it. My only fear in all this is that the unthinkable which we all swore could never happen - could actually happen again. If a frustrated and unsympathetic community and/or political leadership refuses to be “supportive” of a new stadium build - could that be the beginning of a courtship with a new pro football-starved city that would willingly build the Haslams what they really want? Let’s hope that the Haslams professed desire for a better Cleveland connection between downtown and it’s underdeveloped north coast shoreline is real - and not just a strategic and transactional position. Unfortunately, I have my doubts about their altruism once their money is on the table.
March 31, 20232 yr On 3/14/2023 at 7:48 AM, mrnyc said: it helps the bills when the state governor is a buffalonian. It also helps that the Bills are the only NFL team that actually plays in New York.
March 31, 20232 yr 10 hours ago, CleveFan said: There, @KJP, I quoted you- we’re on the same page! Bravo on a gutsy article and a Vulcan-worthy display of logic. Maybe the Haslams don’t consider you Public Enemy #1 - but a great advance PR man in their “long game”. - for how well you articulate why the value of that lakefront parcel is actually much lower with the stadium sitting on it. My only fear in all this is that the unthinkable which we all swore could never happen - could actually happen again. If a frustrated and unsympathetic community and/or political leadership refuses to be “supportive” of a new stadium build - could that be the beginning of a courtship with a new pro football-starved city that would willingly build the Haslams what they really want? Let’s hope that the Haslams professed desire for a better Cleveland connection between downtown and it’s underdeveloped north coast shoreline is real - and not just a strategic and transactional position. Unfortunately, I have my doubts about their altruism once their money is on the table. If a new stadium is built, I hope everyone gets involved and creative with making this building as usable as possible. What I mean is thinking outside the box for ways to make this building usable outside of football season. I'm thinking of community meeting rooms, a downtown rec center, a small movie theater, a Browns museum, restaurants and bars and a little retail that have exterior as well as interior entries. Things that can be used throughout the year. A roof, permanent or retractable should be a given.
March 31, 20232 yr 10 hours ago, Cleburger said: It also helps that the Bills are the only NFL team that actually plays in New York. Go Bills! I'll see myself through a table now and let folks continue the Browns discourse.
March 31, 20232 yr My first choice is a retractable dome for the baseball team but that's not going to happen and since this is a discussion about the football team here's my 2 cents. I think it's obvious that that the best decision is a new domed stadium up the hill and east of E.9th. Getting it off the lakefront does open that area up for development. I think most of us agree that an open air facility used a few days a year is a waste of money. A dome doesn't guarantee anything other than it will be used much, much more which makes it a better investment. So we have an obvious solution but it comes with an obvious problem; funding. Some kind of dome is going to cost upwards of a billion dollars. When added to the new Justice Center, maybe a landbridge and a few other big ticket items l don't know where we come up with the money. And besides that l have serious doubts that it passes a County vote anyway. We still live in a shrinking and relatively poor region. I don't think we can afford the right answer (dome away from the lake). So we get a refurbished stadium (wrong solution and waste of money) or we reach an impasse and like someone mentioned, lose the team again. In a perfect world we build that dome while at the same time develope the lakefront on a large scale. Unfortunately we live in a real world and it's a world where money to do the right thing is probably not available. So where do we go from here? Stay tuned and as Bette Davis once said "It's going to be a bumpy ride."
March 31, 20232 yr ^You make a good point with all the other fiscal commitments we have as a city and county. It would be really nice (but will never happen) for surrounding counties with fans to pay their fair share. I guess you could do that through a ticket fee but not like people are going out of their way to attend games as it is. Part of living in a city, but it's still annoying to have people come in and treat it like a playground, trash the place, then go back to Medina (and then trash the city in conversation). But that's a conversation for another thread.
April 1, 20232 yr 16 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said: If a new stadium is built, I hope everyone gets involved and creative with making this building as usable as possible. What I mean is thinking outside the box for ways to make this building usable outside of football season. I'm thinking of community meeting rooms, a downtown rec center, a small movie theater, a Browns museum, restaurants and bars and a little retail that have exterior as well as interior entries. Things that can be used throughout the year. A roof, permanent or retractable should be a given. I really love @Mov2Ohio’s comments about some outside-the-box thinking for a new stadium. We tend to think in binary terms - either - 1) a new domed stadium would be extremely expensive, but is needed for the future of Cleveland as a major urban center OR 2) it’s extremely expensive and just not worth it. Let the Browns leave if they want..we’ll survive I’m hoping we might at least have some conversation about “How could we build a stadium that would have the most options for community usage year-round? Something that could really be more of an economic driver for the city on an ongoing basis. I get that we’ll never match L.A., Dallas, Atlanta and the biggest markets in terms of sheer glitz, luxury and size of their latest and forthcoming facilities. But with careful thought and ingenuity maybe “we” could create the most versatile and reimagined stadium - without completely blowing up the price. I do believe that’s actually what is being attempted at Progressive Field and probably, to an extent. was the case at RMFH. But football is so different from baseball and basketball. The sheer scale and relative infrequency of use has always been somewhat accepted. I’m sure this conversation has been had before - and that there are lessons to be learned from recent builds and other attempts. Especially from some of the smaller markets that have or are planning to build new stadiums. Cleveland’s socioeconomics obviously make it even more important to explore new ideas and options - especially when considering other possible mega projects we’d like to see happen - from park expansions to lakefront / riverfront developments and all the infrastructure challenges. Time for the creative folks to weigh in, at least, I’m hoping - Are there feasible ways and new ideas that could improve the productivity and frequency of use for a hypothetical new Browns stadium of the future? Edited April 1, 20232 yr by CleveFan
April 1, 20232 yr If the Haslems publicly state they they will be responsible for a modest portion of the cost of a new facility, I believe the public would support the efforts. This would be a great first step. We have a treasure in the lake. A treasure that is going to become increasingly valuable. We can't afford to miss on this opportunity to develop the lakefront. This is our opportunity to have an attraction like the "Riverwalk" in San Antonio or the "Harbor' in Baltimore. If we can develope the lakefront properly, it will be a destination for visitors and tourists.
April 1, 20232 yr @dski44 My understanding is the Haslams and the NFL intend to put significant dollars into the stadium including the use of TIF money coming from the development of FES and the land around it. I've heard that it will be more than half of the total. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 1, 20232 yr The NFL has openly conspired against city team equity since 1980 to avoid another Packers situation. However, I wonder if there could there be a public consortium that could still abide by the rules about number of owners/percentage of equity. If so, then some public financing would be warranted since the consortium would allocaterevenue to the city in some manner. No more of the bullsh-t "the bars, hotels and parking lots do well on game day, so where's my free money". Edited April 1, 20232 yr by TBideon
April 1, 20232 yr 9 hours ago, CleveFan said: I'm hoping we might at least have some conversation about “How could we build a stadium that would have the most options for community usage year-round? Something that could really be more of an economic driver for the city on an ongoing basis. We could have that conversation if somebody could provide a realistic set of new-to-the-region uses that wouldn't be better served at our existing convention center, which we've dumped a half a billion into, or the Fieldhouse, which was also just renovated.
April 1, 20232 yr ^ Or the IX Center which is now open again. Or the underutilized Wolstein Center, Public Hall or Masonic Auditorium. Edited April 1, 20232 yr by LibertyBlvd
April 1, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: @dski44 My understanding is the Haslams and the NFL intend to put significant dollars into the stadium including the use of TIF money coming from the development of FES and the land around it. I've heard that it will be more than half of the total. I stand by my assertion that this is our best bet at something game-changing on the lakefront. If we can get the NFL and Browns to foot part of the bill, it's that much more we'll be getting. On a related note, what's to keep the Browns from moving their practice facility to the stadium? The outdoor fields could become public parks on the 250+ days a year the Browns are not practicing. Plus, the City of Cleveland would get all the payroll taxes!
April 1, 20232 yr 8 minutes ago, Cleburger said: I stand by my assertion that this is our best bet at something game-changing on the lakefront. If we can get the NFL and Browns to foot part of the bill, it's that much more we'll be getting. On a related note, what's to keep the Browns from moving their practice facility to the stadium? The outdoor fields could become public parks on the 250+ days a year the Browns are not practicing. Plus, the City of Cleveland would get all the payroll taxes! Didn’t Ken just report that the Browns are buying up land around their current practice facility in Berea in order to execute a major expansion?
April 1, 20232 yr 36 minutes ago, Htsguy said: Didn’t Ken just report that the Browns are buying up land around their current practice facility in Berea in order to execute a major expansion? Yes he did, which is what got me thinking about it. If there is going to be public money on the lakefront, it would be great to get some of it back via payroll taxes...
April 3, 20232 yr @KJPgetting name-dropped twice in the 8:20-8:40 segment on 92.3 this morning. Basically, all the talking heads on the show agree that the rehab is the opening salvo in new stadium negotiations.
April 7, 20232 yr This story is somewhat related to FES, but I will only refer to it from here. Please discuss the Berea project in the suburban development thread.... 1 hour ago, KJP said: Haslams envision glitzy new Berea future By Ken Prendergast / April 7, 2023 The owners of the Cleveland Browns are trying to keep up with the Jones’. And the Kroenkes, Spanos’ and Wilfs, too. To do that means upgrading the Browns’ football facilities. But that isn’t limited to their downtown Cleveland stadium where the team plays games each Sunday in the Fall. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/04/07/haslams-envision-glitzy-new-berea-future/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 8, 20232 yr 3 hours ago, KJP said: This story is somewhat related to FES, but I will only refer to it from here. Please discuss the Berea project in the suburban development thread.... Berea is not Frisco. And to keep with this thread, if public money is being used, why not move the Browns offices, training facilities and spin off mixed use development all around the stadium. It would fit nicely on "The Pit"
April 8, 20232 yr geez this stadium saga is very similar to the what to do with msg chatter out here in ny. ideally both should be moved elsewhere, but realistically its so hard to do it almost seems impossible. at least it seems the haslam clan would be more willing than the dolan clan.
April 13, 20232 yr Hopefully our fellow forum members get pics of the First Energy lettering coming down. Wonder if they’ll even waste their time putting up “browns stadium” lettering or if theyll find a taker for the rights
April 13, 20232 yr “Together with the Browns, we have worked to enrich our communities while increasing awareness of FirstEnergy as an energy leader. Since we signed this agreement ten years ago, our priorities have shifted as the company evolved from a competitive energy supplier to a regulated utility, and as a result, our corporate initiatives must also evolve,” John Somerhalder, FirstEnergy interim president and CEO, is quoted in the release. “Like the rest of northern Ohio, we remain passionate Browns fans and will cheer them on in upcoming seasons. We also look forward to maintaining our deep relationships with civic, arts and other organizations to bring good energy to our communities.” "PS, maybe our brand isn't so hot after condoning Jones' criminal behavior and having to pay a quarter of a billion in fines".
April 13, 20232 yr Maybe if we change it back to "Cleveland Municipal Stadium" we'll have the success they had on the field back then [emoji24][emoji23]. Seriously though I don't want a corporate name but maybe Sherwin Williams Stadium or Cleveland Cliffs Field.KeyBank isn't doing the hottest right now to enter naming rights. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
April 13, 20232 yr Regarding the development of First Energy Stadium oop.... Cleveland Browns Stadium, couldn't they do an addition to it like Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse? I know it may be tougher due to the street separating the stadium from the site where the former Warehouses sat but harder architectural feats have been accomplished. The addition could house retail or other year round uses for the stadium. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
April 13, 20232 yr 53 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: https://fox8.com/news/browns-stadium-is-getting-a-name-change/ It took too long, but it’s great to see that disgraceful association ending. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
April 13, 20232 yr Good start. Next up, remove that statue of Jim Brown. One active player who preys on vulnerable women is enough; we don't need to see that other violent manaic next to the stadium.
April 13, 20232 yr 54 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: Cliffs Field Cliffs Field or Cliffs Stadium doesn't sound too bad. I could live with that.
April 13, 20232 yr Cliffs Field or Cliffs Stadium doesn't sound too bad. I could live with that. Exactly what I was thinkingSent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
April 14, 20232 yr A bit of history on efforts to bring a domed stadium to Cleveland and one local architect who thinks he can deliver. This Westlake Architect Thinks a Dome Stadium Would Be Perfect for the Cleveland Browns: As the Browns turn their focus toward revamping Cleveland Browns Stadium, Robert Corna thinks a roofed arena makes sense for Cleveland. Plus, we dig in to the history of dome proposals in Cleveland. By Vince Guerrieri "A 2022 report indicated that the Haslams were considering a domed stadium, potentially in a different location than the lakefront site that has been the Browns’ home since the team’s founding in 1946. Costs to rebuild FirstEnergy Stadium to the point where it could accommodate a dome — retractable or not — would approach the costs of a new stadium entirely. But Robert Corna thinks a dome can be done — and he could be the guy to do it. The Westlake architect has been pitching domed stadiums for the better part of the past 40 years. His latest idea is what he calls the Megatron (pictured above), a glass superstructure around FirstEnergy Stadium, with a retractable roof." https://clevelandmagazine.com/in-the-cle/this-westlake-architect-thinks-a-dome-stadium-would-be-perfect-for-the-cleveland-browns
April 14, 20232 yr Gonna be more news coming with the stadium and practice facility coming next week at sometime
April 14, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, w28th said: Bob Corna, now that’s a blast from the past. No kidding! I grew up in a Bob Corna house. And went to the the dentist in a Bob Corna office building. He definitely has a unique fingerprint on certain parts of Cleveland. Not sure the Browns stadium will be one of them, though. Edited April 14, 20232 yr by brtshrcegr
April 14, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, zbaris87 said: Gonna be more news coming with the stadium and practice facility coming next week at sometime We're going to have to wait a bit, though. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 17, 20232 yr Incoming! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 17, 20232 yr Please make a f'ing dreary Monday better, KJP. I'm not digging allergies AND snow.
April 17, 20232 yr Haslams’ major announcement(s) By Ken Prendergast / April 17, 2023 Cleveland Browns owners Dee and Jimmy Haslam, Cleveland Mayor Justin Bibb and Berea Mayor Cyril Kleem, Cuyahoga County Executive Chris Ronayne and others are due to make one or more big announcements starting next week that will include the lakefront football stadium, the Browns’ Berea campus, mixed-use developments around both plus a relocated Shoreway. The announcements will be about changes intended to activate the downtown lakefront by the end of this decade in ways it hasn’t been since the 1930s and to create a year-round fan-friendly village around the team’s suburban headquarters and practice facility, according to two sources familiar with the developments. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/04/17/haslams-major-announcements/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 17, 20232 yr Great article as always, Ken. But yawnnnn. Without a roof, those restaurants will suffer big time. 10 times a year that thing will continue to be used. I hope whoever ultimately decides to live down there enjoys a massive, empty stadium in their neghborhood.
April 17, 20232 yr So we’re going to spend north of one billion dollars to rebuild a new stadium on the same site which means Columbus will host the Browns for 3? seasons? And no roof? And we’re building new hangars at Burke? So much for a world class downtown lakefront experience in the future. . I think this plan will guarantee that Clevelanders will be sitting outside in zero degree games well into the 21st century - (if we keep the team that long.) For over a billion dollars…smh Edited April 17, 20232 yr by CleveFan
April 17, 20232 yr 5 minutes ago, CleveFan said: So we’re going to spend north of one billion dollars to rebuild a new stadium on the same site which means Columbus will host the Browns for 3? seasons? And no roof? And we’re building new hangars at Burke? So much for a world class downtown lakefront experience in the future. . Is this a way for the Haslams to make the general public think that a new stadium is a better idea than a deep rebuild of the old stadium?
April 17, 20232 yr Rebuilding (or nearly rebuilding) the stadium at the current location really seems like the worst possible option... Did the Haslams ever consider the corner of Ontario and 90 over the red line? I can't remember if that was an official proposal or a forumer's suggestion. That's my favorite site location presented so far, I'd like to see that one if we have to have a new stadium. (Though I'd rather use the current one for another decade to get our money's worth).
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