By the way.  Lost in all this suburbs talk is how such a move would affect any possible Haslam investment in the Lakefront plan unrelated to the stadium.  Is the plan to be unveiled today ready for the shelf already, along with the nine others proposed over the last few decades?

18 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

By the way.  Lost in all this suburbs talk is how such a move would affect any possible Haslam investment in the Lakefront plan unrelated to the stadium.  Is the plan to be unveiled today ready for the shelf already, along with the nine others proposed over the last few decades?

 

Also the Muni Lot.   How full does it really get, except for Browns games?

Just now, E Rocc said:

 

Also the Muni Lot.   How full does it really get, except for Browns games?

Every Thursday for the Food Bank distribution, sadly. 

These multi-billion stadiums are out of control. I don't know how Cleveland let alone a little suburb can afford to build one. Especially now with the Justice Center replacement on the table.

 

That being said, if we want to play in the game we have to anti-up. Are we? Can we? They only thing l do know for sure is it's a bullsh*t game. And l'm a big time sports fan sad too say.

5 hours ago, snakebite said:

Moving a major attraction out of Downtown to a suburban site in an era where we are trying to get away from reliance on cars and show more consideration for the environment is not good at all IMO. And if it comes with one of these entertainment districts then further decentralizing and spreading out nightlife options is hardly a help either. We need a strong Downtown with a cluster of varying uses in close proximity. Not major attractions dotted here, there and everywhere and spreading the region thin. And they are still going to want a huge amount of tax payers money for a suburban site where there's much less spin off benefit for surrounding business.

 

Reducing reliance on cars and having a mix of different uses are two very good goals; those are two tenets of good urbanism.  The problem is that a football stadium doesn't fit well into that paradigm. 

 

The healthiest, most cost-effective transit is used on a regular, daily basis.  A stadium is used 8-10 days a year.  So its hard to build transit at the levels necessary for those high-usage short bursts.  Football stadiums also lend themselves to large parking lots.  There are a few reasons for that including that people come from areas that aren't served by transit, people like to tailgate, and the aforementioned difficulty quickly ramping up train service.  So a football stadium downtown is going to be surrounded by parking lots, which directly conflicts with urbanist goals.

 

Because a football stadium itself is big, and also surrounded by big parking lots, its just a geographically large footprint.  This makes it difficult to bunch varied uses together on a walkable scale, which is what cities are all about.  

 

So I agree with your objective of clustering varying uses in close proximity; a football stadium is not the best way to do it.  

 

The Browns stadium is on the lakefront because that was the land use decision made a hundred years ago, then 25 years ago it was the easiest place to build on quickly.  The best place for a stadium in the 21st century is not on the lakefront and the best use of the lakefront is not a stadium.  We shouldn't let the inertia of a decision a hundred years ago dictate where the stadium is now.  I think it should be moved off the lakefront so that a mix of uses can go in its place.

13 minutes ago, cadmen said:

These multi-billion stadiums are out of control. I don't know how Cleveland let alone a little suburb can afford to build one. Especially now with the Justice Center replacement on the table.

 

That being said, if we want to play in the game we have to anti-up. Are we? Can we? They only thing l do know for sure is it's a bullsh*t game. And l'm a big time sports fan sad too say.

And these multi-billion dollar stadiums only have a lifespan of about 30 years. 

The Browns leaving Cleveland for a neighboring suburb or county makes no sense to me and seems like a weak negotiating tactic. The Washington Commanders are in the DC burbs of Maryland and it sounds like they may go to the Virginia exurbs. But those areas have much larger populations and wealth. If the issue is the Browns want more local public funding, how could they ever get that from a neighboring county or suburb with much smaller populations. 

 

Edit: On the flip side, I could see Cuyahoga County giving them money if they were to say they want another Cuyahoga site..."otherwise, maybe we will look at other states..." That to me is the Browns strongest bargaining chip.

Edited July 27, 20231 yr by coneflower

33 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

 

Reducing reliance on cars and having a mix of different uses are two very good goals; those are two tenets of good urbanism.  The problem is that a football stadium doesn't fit well into that paradigm. 

 

The healthiest, most cost-effective transit is used on a regular, daily basis.  A stadium is used 8-10 days a year.  So its hard to build transit at the levels necessary for those high-usage short bursts.  Football stadiums also lend themselves to large parking lots.  There are a few reasons for that including that people come from areas that aren't served by transit, people like to tailgate, and the aforementioned difficulty quickly ramping up train service.  So a football stadium downtown is going to be surrounded by parking lots, which directly conflicts with urbanist goals.

 

Because a football stadium itself is big, and also surrounded by big parking lots, its just a geographically large footprint.  This makes it difficult to bunch varied uses together on a walkable scale, which is what cities are all about.  

 

So I agree with your objective of clustering varying uses in close proximity; a football stadium is not the best way to do it.  

 

The Browns stadium is on the lakefront because that was the land use decision made a hundred years ago, then 25 years ago it was the easiest place to build on quickly.  The best place for a stadium in the 21st century is not on the lakefront and the best use of the lakefront is not a stadium.  We shouldn't let the inertia of a decision a hundred years ago dictate where the stadium is now.  I think it should be moved off the lakefront so that a mix of uses can go in its place.

If we are talking specific sites the Lakefront is wasted because it's a prime water's edge site that would otherwise be in demand so I would agree in that regard.

 

I don't think football stadiums can't have a place in urban areas however. Tailgating was born simply put of having no other alternatives. Cities like Seattle and Pittsburgh have nailed it IMO having stadiums on the edge of their CBD's in areas that would otherwise be potentially barren and this in turn has stimulated further development as there is an appetite for people to live in close proximity to their favorite teams. 

 

I've read research of the spin off effect in places like Downtown Baltimore and Charlotte in regards to having stadiums close by. On one particular weekend in the dead of winter hotel occupancy Downtown doubled from 20 to 40% due to a Ravens home game.

 

The post office site was a solid chance in line with that and I am not opposed to the NE corner of Downtown which is rife with surface parking and underutilized properties. It shouldn't be bang in the middle of Public Square but there are other areas in close proximity I feel it's more than suitable to go and can even provide a spark.

 

Edited July 27, 20231 yr by snakebite

7 minutes ago, coneflower said:

The Browns leaving Cleveland for a neighboring suburb or county makes no sense to me and seems like a weak negotiating tactic. The Washington Commanders are in the DC burbs of Maryland and it sounds like they may go to the Virginia exurbs. But those areas have much larger populations and wealth. If the issue is the Browns want more local public funding, how could they ever get that from a neighboring county or suburb with much smaller populations. 

A suburban stadium in NYC or Boston or DC for instance makes far more sense than Cleveland. These cities have much larger more robust CBD/Downtown areas that have been able to better withstand the death of industry and suburban flight, mainly due to as you suggested their larger populations and subsequent levels of wealth. They also don't have the same issues with acres of empty properties and surface parking as well as much more comprehensive public transit systems so suburban development is less disconnected.

 

Cleveland's peers are more the other AFC North cities of a similar size and social issues and they all have urban stadiums because it's been so much more difficult to breathe life into their cores and the suburbs are so cut off.

 

 

 

Grumpy hot take alert:

 

The city and the county should focus on spreading money and budgetary scraps to people who need it. 

 

Let all the out of county folks who trash the city on the regular then come here for sporting events (and enjoy themselves!!) pay for the new palace.

 

Put it in a corn field in Ashtabula County for all I care. 

Edited July 27, 20231 yr by GISguy

The city and county should provide no money for a new stadium. Build it in Geauga County. 

11 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Grumpy hot take alert:

 

The city and the county should focus on spreading money and budgetary scraps to people who need it. 

 

Let all the out of county folks who trash the city on the regular then come here for sporting events (and enjoy themselves!!) pay for the new palace.

 

Put it in a corn field in Ashtabula County for all I care. 

 

Since we're all giving hot takes, I bet the state provides more funding if it's built in a neighboring city or county. 

4 minutes ago, Mendo said:

 

Since we're all giving hot takes, I bet the state provides more funding if it's built in a neighboring city or county. 

For real, if there's gotta be public money then why not go for something like the Bills stadium deal? I don't know if these ended up being the final numbers but I think that one shook out like this:
State: 39%

County: 16%

Team: 45%

 

Just seems crazy to expect Cleveland and Cuyahoga County to be the ones to pony up a significant amount of the money

I know people are down on stadiums for very valid reasons, but if you look at a place like DC, having the Nationals and now DC United stadium near their waterfront I think can at least partly be given credit for helping catalyze a ton of development in the vicinity over the last 15 years. I lived there over that time and the change is honestly mind-blowing. Again, a different market with more people and more money... but I don't think it would be wise to say "Go ahead, Browns, go to Lorain County!" That is a valuable resource that would be squandered in a suburban/rural location.

Edited July 27, 20231 yr by coneflower

1 minute ago, bikemail said:

For real, if there's gotta be public money then why not go for something like the Bills stadium deal? I don't know if these ended up being the final numbers but I think that one shook out like this:
State: 39%

County: 16%

Team: 45%

 

Just seems crazy to expect Cleveland and Cuyahoga County to be the ones to pony up a significant amount of the money

 

I didn't say I liked the idea. Just that the state would be more willing to help a suburb than Cleveland. See the $62 million requested for the land bridge that was removed from the state budget. 

I don't buy the economic benefit argument of a football stadium. Baseball stadiums are different since there are more games and activity tends to spill over more. That is not the case with football. Only 8 games and the crowd tends to go the game and go home. 

8 minutes ago, bikemail said:

For real, if there's gotta be public money then why not go for something like the Bills stadium deal? I don't know if these ended up being the final numbers but I think that one shook out like this:
State: 39%

County: 16%

Team: 45%

 

Just seems crazy to expect Cleveland and Cuyahoga County to be the ones to pony up a significant amount of the money

At minimum, the money should pool from the whole Cleveland CSA. Basically the whole media market the team serves should help to support the stadium construction, if public money is to be used at all. Placing the burden on just the city/county the stadium will be placed in doesn't seem reasonable. 

10 minutes ago, coneflower said:

I know people are down on stadiums for very valid reasons, but if you look at a place like DC, having the Nationals and now DC United stadium near their waterfront I think can at least partly be given credit for helping catalyze a ton of development in the vicinity over the last 15 years. I lived there over that time and the change is honestly mind-blowing. Again, a different market with more people and more money... but I don't think it would be wise to say "Go ahead, Browns, go to Lorain County!" That is a valuable resource that would be squandered in a suburban/rural location.

 

I think that portion of the lakefront can catalyze itself.  Seems like Burke would be a good place that could use a catalyst, assuming its buildable at all.... 

I hope the county wouldn't subsidize a move away from cleveland and these suburban cities don't try to poach the team. 
 
I don't think the browns risk losing viewership/fan support if they leave the city, but they do if they left the county.

I for sure wouldn't travel that distance to go watch the Browns ESPECIALLY if they're losing. I definitely think they'd lose some (consistent) support. I think you'd see attendance fluctuate like you see at guardians games (meaning percentage of seats filled).

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If they keep it on the lakefront and renovate it they need to figure out a way to build multipurpose spaces on the exterior of the stadium.

If that much money is being spent and that land is to be activated, ALL of it needs to be able to be used at all times of the year. This project needs to be all or nothing, no half ass attempts.

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18 hours ago, GISguy said:

Stadium/jail/courts/condos combo incoming.

 

Oh, and outlets, those too.

"Philly Special"

What if Bedrock was buying up all this land for other reasons……Would a leased back NFL stadium be unheard of?

There are rumors that at some point Gilbert is going to want a new arena in downtown Cleveland for the Cavs. But for now, the plan is to build parking garages there. That will give him and the Guardians flexibility for future development of a ballpark village on the site of one of the Gateway garages.

23 minutes ago, KJP said:

There are rumors that at some point Gilbert is going to want a new arena in downtown Cleveland for the Cavs. But for now, the plan is to build parking garages there. That will give him and the Guardians flexibility for future development of a ballpark village on the site of one of the Gateway garages.

I know you said this is just a rumor but ideas like that make my headache.  Why is it in this country that things like arenas and stadiums have a 25-30 self life and we don't think anything of it and our basic infrastructures (water and sewer systems just one example) are often more than 100 years old and need of major overhauls and we have to fight and cajole and scrape money together to get even minor things done.

2 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I know you said this is just a rumor but ideas like that make my headache.  Why is it in this country that things like arenas and stadiums have a 25-30 self life and we don't think anything of it and our basic infrastructures (water and sewer systems just one example) are often more than 100 years old and need of major overhauls and we have to fight and cajole and scrape money together to get even minor things done.

Went a concert in Verona, Italy,  a few years ago -- in a Roman coliseum originally built in 30AD.   Check out the pictures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verona_Arena

 

 

Are they putting up a new name on the stadium?

I vote for the NE Downtown location.  Yes, there would have to be a lot of land purchasing, but this is truly the best spot.  This would revitalize this part of Downtown Cleveland, keep it close to the lakefront, bridge the gap between downtown and Cleveland State and also keep the Muni Lot relevant.  Again, i know this would be the hardest site to acquire, but its simply the best location IMO.  I hope the powers that be understand the 100 year decision this could become.  Something that could change the franchise and the city forever!!  You get what you pay for and this site would be fantastic!!

 

I vote for the NE Downtown location.  Yes, there would have to be a lot of land purchasing, but this is truly the best spot.  This would revitalize this part of Downtown Cleveland, keep it close to the lakefront, bridge the gap between downtown and Cleveland State and also keep the Muni Lot relevant.  Again, i know this would be the hardest site to acquire, but its simply the best location IMO.  I hope the powers that be understand the 100 year decision this could become.  Something that could change the franchise and the city forever!!  You get what you pay for and this site would be fantastic!!
 

With all of those existing lots we wouldn't even need additional parking [emoji23].

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Dawg, don't take Noble Beast from me, comeonnnnnnnnnnnnn.

On 7/30/2023 at 11:21 AM, Htsguy said:

I know you said this is just a rumor but ideas like that make my headache.  Why is it in this country that things like arenas and stadiums have a 25-30 self life and we don't think anything of it and our basic infrastructures (water and sewer systems just one example) are often more than 100 years old and need of major overhauls and we have to fight and cajole and scrape money together to get even minor things done.

I’d like to think CLE actually was first to the market with this concept.  Richfield Coliseum lasted from 1974-1994.  

15 minutes ago, BigMacky said:

I’d like to think CLE actually was first to the market with this concept.  Richfield Coliseum lasted from 1974-1994.  

A lot of bad decisions were made in the 70’s. I.e. design, location, etc.. All those cookie cutter stadiums surrounded by seas of parking….

Baltimore pioneered the reintegration back to urban settings with Camden Yards. Everyone has followed. Almost everyone. 

Did the FBI ever announce where they are moving to?  Or have they decided to stay there?

 

Edited August 2, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

2 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

I vote for the NE Downtown location.  Yes, there would have to be a lot of land purchasing, but this is truly the best spot.  This would revitalize this part of Downtown Cleveland, keep it close to the lakefront, bridge the gap between downtown and Cleveland State and also keep the Muni Lot relevant.  Again, i know this would be the hardest site to acquire, but its simply the best location IMO.  I hope the powers that be understand the 100 year decision this could become.  Something that could change the franchise and the city forever!!  You get what you pay for and this site would be fantastic!!

 

This is where i would love to see the stadium, put a dome on it and make a village!

 

3 hours ago, G00pie said:

This is where i would love to see the stadium, put a dome on it and make a village!

 

This is absolutely where it should go! Is this still an option or did Bibb shut that down?

Eastern downtown?  Call it wrongheaded Erieview Urban Renewal Part II.

Tearing down a nearly viable neighborhood for the same as what we already have on the lake? - 👎  With this, we will never weave the other side of the stadium back into the heart of the city, ever again. 

53 minutes ago, ExPatClevGuy said:

Eastern downtown?  Call it wrongheaded Erieview Urban Renewal Part II.

Tearing down a nearly viable neighborhood for the same as what we already have on the lake? - 👎  With this, we will never weave the other side of the stadium back into the heart of the city, ever again. 

Yeah, tearing all that down for 10 days a year? No thanks. There’ll be plenty of open land on the West Bank of the Flats lol

I mean, there’s nothing viable over there other than Noble Beast.

Here is my hastily rendered solution. Obviously they would need to hem the sides in a bit.

I still think the area south of Tower City would be the best location for a new stadium. 

I'm surprised the Wolstein Center site isn't even in the mix.  This location seems so obvious to me.  This site would be the easiest in terms of site acquisition, since it's already owned by the State/CSU and I think they'd be more open to making a deal than private landowners, or they could even donate it as part of their support package.  This site would be pretty easy as far as needed infrastructure since it's already the site of an arena, so access and parking is already there.  I think you'd have to move Carnegie a little, but that's not too big a deal compared to most other sites.  The City wouldn't have to do too much else.  It's directly downtown, and is not cut off by highways, train tracks, or topography.  It would be easy to get to since it's right on the innerbelt and 1 block from Euclid, and there's parking everywhere.  I really don't see a downside to this site.

5 minutes ago, Dino said:

I'm surprised the Wolstein Center site isn't even in the mix.  This location seems so obvious to me.  This site would be the easiest in terms of site acquisition, since it's already owned by the State/CSU and I think they'd be more open to making a deal than private landowners, or they could even donate it as part of their support package.  This site would be pretty easy as far as needed infrastructure since it's already the site of an arena, so access and parking is already there.  I think you'd have to move Carnegie a little, but that's not too big a deal compared to most other sites.  The City wouldn't have to do too much else.  It's directly downtown, and is not cut off by highways, train tracks, or topography.  It would be easy to get to since it's right on the innerbelt and 1 block from Euclid, and there's parking everywhere.  I really don't see a downside to this site.

I still really like this idea, Dino.

^^^^ It would be really interesting to see what kind of spinoff that south of muny location could inspire. A few more hotels? Sports and well ness facilities? Athletic fields for the public or share with CSU? A 72 acre beer garden for Noble?

 

Fun to think about anyhow. 

 

If the stadium were getting a roof (and yes that's a big IF lol and lets absolutely make it retractable since we're dreaming here) I'd actually prefer it to stay in close proximity to the present location/lakefront + convention center. A connected complex like that could be able to steal or better yet create its own "Comicon" type annual event, which would be like having a Super Bowl every year. 

Edited August 2, 20231 yr by surfohio

@Dinoheck man you're right. Not much there at all....Wolstein, a low rise parking garage and STJ transit which could be realigned and get more use. Seems very doable. 

Any place you move the stadium to will require a large amount of demolition for parking. If we're cool with adding to the sea of parking already near that area of CSU and Tri-C, then okay I guess. 

11 minutes ago, Mendo said:

Any place you move the stadium to will require a large amount of demolition for parking. If we're cool with adding to the sea of parking already near that area of CSU and Tri-C, then okay I guess.

It doesn't have to be that way.  I think the one thing everyone (Browns, City, County, etc.) agrees on is a stadium surrounded by development, so I don't see that happening.  Indianapolis, Seattle, Detroit, and Minneapolis have their stadiums just slightly outside of downtown and they don't have tons of surface parking (some, but not tons.)  Plus you already have a lot of parking capacity between CSU, Playhouse Sq. and Gateway.  And, just to the south, look at all the parking at St. Vincent's and Tri-C.  There's already tons of parking in this area.  I really don't think parking would be an issue at this site at all.

Here's a very crude rendering of a stadium at the Wolstein site.  BONUS: Leave the west end of the stadium open and it will frame the Terminal Tower perfectly!  Google Lumen Field in Seattle to see what I mean.

Seems like it would a tight fit on Wolstein site.

5 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Seems like it would a tight fit on Wolstein site.

Speaking of tight fits, can they shoehorn a football field into Progressive Field?

 

 

Sorry.... this was just a joke.  

9 minutes ago, DO_Summers said:

Speaking of tight fits, can they shoehorn a football field into Progressive Field?

 

 

Sorry.... this was just a joke.  

I believe it was designed to accommodate a football field.