12 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Seems like it would a tight fit on Wolstein site.

I call it the Wolstein site, but I'm talking about the land bounded by Prospect and I-90, between E. 18th and E. 22nd.  You would need to demo Wolstein (already happening), a parking garage, the transit station, and 3 small commercial buildings.  This land totals about 19 acres and you might get another acre once E. 21st is vacated, so let's call it 20 acres.  The current Browns stadium is on a 17.5 acre site.  It might be a tight fit, but it seems like it would fit.  And it's an urban site, so you want a tight fit, right?

But is it a good idea to put a large, infrequently used facility on an urban site?

Like it or not, but one of the biggest selling points to keeping the stadium where it is is the existing infrastructure is already in place (read: out of the way). I have seen countless projects in the area blow up when everyone discovers there are large sewers, water lines, or other infrastructure under a site.  All of which is virtually guaranteed when looking at large blocks in the urban core. Moving and realigning roads looks good on paper from the surface, but the second you look beneath that it can turn into an adventure real quick. 

they're also rerouting cedar as a part of the e22nd "landbridge"

 

if you wanted to get weird with it, you could vacate Carnegie between 18 and 22nd and orient the stadium North to South.

Edited August 2, 20231 yr by Whipjacka

13 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

But is it a good idea to put a large, infrequently used facility on an urban site?

Yes.  Because the infrequently used facility is bringing in hundreds of thousands of people into the City every year and you want those visitors to take advantage of shared amenities like hotels, restaurants, parking garages, and public transit options.  The other way to look at it is to ask, "Is it a good idea to build miles and miles of roads, acres of parking, hundreds of hotel rooms and dozens of bars and restaurants in a greenfield site that will be infrequently used?"  That was the mindset in the 1960's.

 

@enginerd12I've previously commented on leaving the stadium where it is and renovating.  It's a shame to keep rebuilding stadiums every 30 years.  BUT, the stadium will have to be rebuilt at some point, and unless the team leaves again, it will have to be rebuilt in a new location.  IF, that is to happen now, I can't think of a better site in the City that E. 18th and Prospect.  But I also think there is merit in renovating the existing stadium.

6 minutes ago, Dino said:

Yes.  Because the infrequently used facility is bringing in hundreds of thousands of people into the City every year and you want those visitors to take advantage of shared amenities like hotels, restaurants, parking garages, and public transit options.  The other way to look at it is to ask, "Is it a good idea to build miles and miles of roads, acres of parking, hundreds of hotel rooms and dozens of bars and restaurants in a greenfield site that will be infrequently used?"  That was the mindset in the 1960's.

 

@enginerd12I've previously commented on leaving the stadium where it is and renovating.  It's a shame to keep rebuilding stadiums every 30 years.  BUT, the stadium will have to be rebuilt at some point, and unless the team leaves again, it will have to be rebuilt in a new location.  IF, that is to happen now, I can't think of a better site in the City that E. 18th and Prospect.  But I also think there is merit in renovating the existing stadium.

 

it would be less complicated than other sites downtown.  a large plot of land, mostly publicly owned.  CSU is looking to unload the arena site.  It would also give  CSU an opportunity to use it for their own athletic program and have it basically be on campus

54 minutes ago, Dino said:

Yes.  Because the infrequently used facility is bringing in hundreds of thousands of people into the City every year and you want those visitors to take advantage of shared amenities like hotels, restaurants, parking garages, and public transit options.  The other way to look at it is to ask, "Is it a good idea to build miles and miles of roads, acres of parking, hundreds of hotel rooms and dozens of bars and restaurants in a greenfield site that will be infrequently used?"  That was the mindset in the 1960's.

I didn't mean building it in the middle of nowhere (a la the Coliseum), but rather on the edge of downtown.  That's why I think a site on the southern edge of downtown would be a good location.  Let's face, that is not a very glamorous part of town and will never see any upscale development.  Yet, it is close enough to the amenities you mention.  And football fans are a bit different - many could care less about those amenities and are only interested in tailgating before and after the game.

 

Edited August 2, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

I hear ya @LibertyBlvd!  There's some decent sites south of downtown.  The Orange Ave. Post office wouldn't be bad and that one site people mentioned for a soccer stadium wouldn't be bad either.

Here we go again.

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/cleveland-browns-ask-for-fan-input-with-field-design

1 minute ago, Dino said:

I hear ya @LibertyBlvd!  There's some decent sites south of downtown.  The Orange Ave. Post office wouldn't be bad and that one site people mentioned for a soccer stadium wouldn't be bad either.

I was about to come in and reference the post office site. It's a large enough site for the stadium. And some surrounding land is available for parking. Also near a few highway exits and rapid transit stop Red, Blue, and Green Line.

28 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Here we go again.

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/cleveland-browns-ask-for-fan-input-with-field-design

Which one looks tougher to you? 

It would create another reason to extend the Waterfront Line as a downtown loop. If a football stadium is ever built next to the Inner Belt, I'd build a big parking deck over the highway.

5 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Which one looks tougher to you? 

I'm not a fan of the elf, not even the angry elf. It's too wimpy for a football team. But I'm not a fan of the dog either. The dogs/dawgs should have been put to sleep years ago. It was a fun thing in the 80s, but let's move on. The orange helmet is rather lame for a team named the Browns. I would prefer they keep it simple and go with the colored stripe.   And just win, baby.

 

Edited August 3, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

44 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm not a fan of the elf, not even the angry elf.  But I'm not a fan of the dog either. The dogs/dawgs should have been put to sleep years ago. The orange helmet is rather lame for a team named the Browns. I would prefer they keep it simple and go with the colored stripe.   And just win, baby.

Agree. They’re all bad. 

more of the brownie X1000% 👍

This is a development discussion? 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

This is a development discussion? 

And they are discussing developments in the midfield logo saga 😜

Put it on the Transport Road site...if it's good enough for a jail it's good enough for a stadium!

22 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

But is it a good idea to put a large, infrequently used facility on an urban site?

This isn't directed @LibertyBlvd, but the comment made me think about how much land we are using downtown, and how many people it actually brings in.  Let's call it "visitor density."  Although a football stadium isn't used often, it does bring a lot of people to a City.  How does that compare to other attractions downtown?  I didn't include parking or another adjacent uses:

 

Location             Annual visitors                Acreage                 Visitors/Acre

SHW HQ          806,000 (3100x260days)      2.7                          298,519

R&R HOF                    543,000                         3                             181,000

RoMoFiHo                  843,000                         7                             120,435

Progressive Field         1.3M                          16.7                            77,844

GLSC                         300,000                        7.5                             40,000

Browns Stadium        540,000                       17.4                            31,034

Convention Center    236,000                       15.5                            15,225

 

While the density isn't great for a football stadium, it's not terrible either, and I would really hate to let half a million visitors slip out of the immediate downtown area, even if it takes up a lot of space.  If we do build a new stadium I would really want it between the river and innerbelt somewhere.  We have too much space and not enough people downtown.  That's my opinion anyway.  

^Granted, I would love it if our downtown was so jam packed with skyscrapers we couldn't afford to give up the real estate for a stadium, but that's not the case in Cleveland, or really any other US city except NYC.

Most of the Convention Center acreage is underground.  I'm not sure it is appropriate to include with the others. 

 

It looks like the Guardians/Progressive Field will draw more than 1.3M this year.

 

Edited August 3, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/football/2023/nfl-new-stadiums-whats-next-1234709192/amp/
 

an article from a few months ago but relevant …

I wonder if there has been any discussion to modify the field to accommodate soccer.  This would activate the stadium for more than the 10 games for the NFL play.  Remember that the original Municipal Stadium  served a better purpose of activity with baseball in the spring and summer months albeit not the best facility

2 hours ago, dave2017 said:

I wonder if there has been any discussion to modify the field to accommodate soccer.  This would activate the stadium for more than the 10 games for the NFL play.  Remember that the original Municipal Stadium  served a better purpose of activity with baseball in the spring and summer months albeit not the best facility

 

It's way too big for a soccer stadium. Even rocket fieldwhatever feels cavernous for monsters games. I'm not advocating for a dome, but there aren't many uses for an open air stadium. Honestly idk if there's many uses for a domed stadium either (like, what things do Detroit/Indy get that we could get too). 

8 hours ago, Dino said:

^Granted, I would love it if our downtown was so jam packed with skyscrapers we couldn't afford to give up the real estate for a stadium, but that's not the case in Cleveland, or really any other US city except NYC.

Frankly even New York can give up real estate for a stadium. MSG is in the middle of Manhattan. The Polo Grounds used to be in Manhatten. 

 

The thing is, these NFL owners want massive parking lots, not just garages either, but massive surface lots right outside their stadiums. That's why the Giants and Jets are in the Meadowlands. 

9 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Frankly even New York can give up real estate for a stadium. MSG is in the middle of Manhattan. The Polo Grounds used to be in Manhatten. 

 

The thing is, these NFL owners want massive parking lots, not just garages either, but massive surface lots right outside their stadiums. That's why the Giants and Jets are in the Meadowlands. 

MSG is not a stadium; it’s an arena. Big difference in the space it takes up and the amount of use it can get compared to a stadium.  
 

Using the Polo Grounds is not a good example of whatever point you’re tying to make as it proves @Dino point: the stadium was demolished and the public housing project built on the land opened in 1968 because in NYC, it was a better, more dense use of land than a stadium. 

I know Tom Benson stadium only seats like 25k but it looks great on tv tonite.  If the browns had to play somewhere for a couple of years maybe they could add like 10,000 temporary seats  and it could work. Could also add some video screens around the stadium for standing room.  The leauge should make up the diff in revanue.

4 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

MSG is not a stadium; it’s an arena. Big difference in the space it takes up and the amount of use it can get compared to a stadium.  
 

Using the Polo Grounds is not a good example of whatever point you’re tying to make as it proves @Dino point: the stadium was demolished and the public housing project built on the land opened in 1968 because in NYC, it was a better, more dense use of land than a stadium. 

MSG is an arena and theater, built on top of a train station.   Very multi use!  

Here's another way to look at a new stadium...Look at Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta.  It was built in 2017 and cost $1.6 BILLION!!!  That sounds like a lot, but it had 3.3 million visitors in the first year!  That's $485/visitor for just one year.  A Browns stadium renovation will cost about $550M, likely won't include a roof, and likely won't significantly change attendance numbers.  So that's roughly $1000/visitor in a year for a renovation.  Let's assume Cleveland builds a domed stadium like Atlanta's.  Let's say it isn't quite as fancy so the $1.6B price tag remains the same in today's dollars.  Let's also assume that Cleveland isn't the regional or even national destination that Atlanta is (I know, it's tough to imagine), so it's annual attendance is only half of Atlanta's, at 1.65M visitors.  That would still come out to roughly $1000/visitor, but we've tripled the number of overall visitors.

 

Personally, I think there's pros and cons to building vs. renovating but this is the type of stuff I think about when left to my own devices.

 

Atlanta replaces their football and baseball stadiums about every 25 years.  Dang.

Atlanta's Stadium also is home to The City's soccer team

58 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

Atlanta's Stadium also is home to The City's soccer team

Same ownership, so they don’t have to worry about renting out a venue that’s too big to return enough revenue 

8 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Same ownership, so they don’t have to worry about renting out a venue that’s too big to return enough revenue 

Tell Haslam we will get him a new stadium if he gets us an MLS team.

Or we'll give them a stadium in exchange for a percentage of all sponsorship deals, concessions, ticket sales, and especially television contracts in perpetuity. If Jimmy and Dee make a dollar, we get a big nibble. If they sell we get a far larger  one.

 

Then the con man and his wife can have their multi-billion bdollar entertainment complex on the house.

1 hour ago, X said:

Tell Haslam we will get him a new stadium if he gets us an MLS team.

Wouldn’t be the first second or third ownership group to own another team in the MLS, as it’s operated as a single entity “owners” act only as operators and really only invest in the league itself not the team alone. However this would likely be the first where the markets would be so close making it unlikely. 

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

Or we'll give them a stadium in exchange for a percentage of all sponsorship deals, concessions, ticket sales, and especially television contracts in perpetuity. If Jimmy and Dee make a dollar, we get a big nibble. If they sell we get a far larger  one.

 

Then the con man and his wife can have their multi-billion bdollar entertainment complex on the house.

TV rev split etc makes the most sense to me but something tells me no owner wants to set that type of precedent 

11 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

TV rev split etc makes the most sense to me but something tells me no owner wants to set that type of precedent 

I doubt it'll happen either but on the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time the Haslems set a precedent that upset all the other owners. 

Like that idea of using the Wolstein site, but doesn't seem like that's even in the conversation.

 

Kind of ambivalent on the current site vs. the east side of downtown. I'd rather see residential development on the current stadium site but can say the same about the near east side. The near east side between the lakefront and Payne doesn't seem to have relatively much momentum for some reason other than Cleveland State projects. I'd think this area would be a prime area for urban infill. 

Tennessee Titans new stadium hype video. 1. Amazed to see a new build without acres of parking lots surrounding it. Im sure Nashvilles RE and Music Mecca helps with that. 2. Whether he knows it or not, Im sure this along the lines of what Jimmys gonna wannt

 

 

^ Looks good. Putting stadium longevity, subsidy debates etc aside for a moment, it’s good to see Nissan Stadium get replaced.  It’s as ugly af and astonishing how something less than 25 years old can look so dated. 

Always amusing to be in these rendering videos all the people are wearing business casual wear regardless of the structure type. Didn't realize a suit, blazer, and high heels were game day attire for everyone in Tennessee 🤣

Wow, impressive - but time moves forward and this is typical of the standard for NFL stadiums in the mid 21st century - like it or not, we’re going to have to keep pace to play with the big boys. 

Billion dollar venues for millionaire athletes funded by John Q Public.

18 hours ago, dwolfi01 said:

Always amusing to be in these rendering videos all the people are wearing business casual wear regardless of the structure type. Didn't realize a suit, blazer, and high heels were game day attire for everyone in Tennessee 🤣

 

With updated ticket prices, it'll be the only people who can afford it. If/when the browns get better (maybe?)/new stadium people will be in for a shock w/ticket prices. You used to be able to scalp Bills tix for nothing, now to get in the stadium it's like $150-200+, it'll only go up with a new stadium/reduced capacity. 

 

20 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Looks good. Putting stadium longevity, subsidy debates etc aside for a moment, it’s good to see Nissan Stadium get replaced.  It’s as ugly af and astonishing how something less than 25 years old can look so dated. 

 

Looks shockingly similar to FES/Browns Stadium hah.

Funny thing about Browns stadium is that even though it's a vanilla stadium, it hasn't aged poorly in the looks department. Sometimes playing it safe works.

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It's just such a silly use of money.  People act like all these amenities are absolutely necessary to "keep up", but the reality is that at least 50% of the people attending Browns games are annihilated by the time they reach their seat.  The NFL gameday "experience" does not rely on being surrounded by modern luxurious stadium features.  Keep the beer lines moving, build a few extra bathrooms and you're good to go.  

26 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Looks shockingly similar to FES/Browns Stadium hah.

It’s not entirely dissimilar, but a lot, lot worse. Those red floodlight scaffolds, that look like something straight out of the 1980s/ first gen Transformers, are the killer. 

What is the state of play with this thing? As I understand from all the articles, the Haslams want to renovate the current stadium and develop around it.

 

If they don't get the land bridge and development plan they like, they'll move it somewhere else in the region?

21 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Looks good. Putting stadium longevity, subsidy debates etc aside for a moment, it’s good to see Nissan Stadium get replaced.  It’s as ugly af and astonishing how something less than 25 years old can look so dated. 

 

I agree with you that objectively, this new Nashville rendering looks like an awesome venue, but I’m still beside myself that so many of the late 90’s/early 2000’s football-only venues are already being discussed as potentially being replaced. I mean, I get it—billionaires gonna billionaire and everyone wants what Atlanta and LA have, but Nashville, Cleveland, and even Cincy are all considering changes/replacements and those stadiums are… theirs. It’s not like the old days of “we’re tired of sharing with another team” or “we don’t get enough suite revenue,” these teams already have sweetheart deals. 

Tennessee Titans new stadium hype video. 1. Amazed to see a new build without acres of parking lots surrounding it. Im sure Nashvilles RE and Music Mecca helps with that. 2. Whether he knows it or not, Im sure this along the lines of what Jimmys gonna wannt
 
 

I'm actually a huge fan of this design. Looks modern without a tacky design, so it should age well. I wouldn't be mad at something similar for Browns stadium.

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