August 10, 20231 yr On 8/4/2023 at 11:14 PM, BoomerangCleRes said: Wouldn’t be the first second or third ownership group to own another team in the MLS, as it’s operated as a single entity “owners” act only as operators and really only invest in the league itself not the team alone. However this would likely be the first where the markets would be so close making it unlikely. I also don’t believe that MLS allows this anymore which is how the Hunt family ended up with just the Dallas club.
August 10, 20231 yr 22 hours ago, ogibbigo said: Tennessee Titans new stadium hype video. 1. Amazed to see a new build without acres of parking lots surrounding it. Im sure Nashvilles RE and Music Mecca helps with that. 2. Whether he knows it or not, Im sure this along the lines of what Jimmys gonna wannt Wow, so sleek and modern it looks like a printer/scanner my mom bought in 2005.
August 11, 20231 yr article from signal... nothing new, except a meeting between browns owners, city, and county happened on Monday... https://signalcleveland.org/browns-owners-meet-with-cleveland-cuyahoga-county-leaders-to-talk-lakefront-development/
August 11, 20231 yr 43 minutes ago, lockdog said: nothing new, except a meeting between browns owners, city, and county happened on Monday... Unauthorized photo of stadium planning team holding preliminary talks from Monday. A bit of a hocus pocus approach to finance, but nothing that would be illegal I am told. Edited August 11, 20231 yr by DO_Summers
August 13, 20231 yr Can only speak for one hotel, but every single room in the Crowne Plaza Downtown was booked out this weekend. The weekend of a mere pre-season game. Football isn't simply just 10 games, its basically 10 weekends of strong activity Downtown which we shouldn't readily dismiss and be happy to concede to the suburbs. Edited August 13, 20231 yr by snakebite
August 13, 20231 yr Can only speak for one hotel, but every single room in the Crowne Plaza Downtown was booked out this weekend. The weekend of a mere pre-season game. Football isn't simply just 10 games, its basically 10 weekends of strong activity Downtown which we shouldn't readily dismiss and be happy to concede to the suburbs.There also was a major national concert tour downtown as well yesterday. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
August 14, 20231 yr 5 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: There also was a major national concert tour downtown as well yesterday. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk MGK day was today as well. That was absolutely packed. Downtown was busy on what should have been a lazy Sunday.
August 14, 20231 yr MGK day was today as well. That was absolutely packed. Downtown was busy on what should have been a lazy Sunday. Just came from there, absolutely an amazing event that I hope the city continues it and builds on it. Maybe a bone thugs n harmony day on Sept 9th. (East 99th aka 9/9).Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
August 14, 20231 yr MGK day was today as well. That was absolutely packed. Downtown was busy on what should have been a lazy Sunday. Just came from there, absolutely an amazing event that I hope the city continues it and builds on it. Maybe a bone thugs n harmony day on Sept 9th. (East 99th aka 9/9).Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
August 16, 20231 yr Amid lease talks, Cleveland to sign off on $3.4M in repairs to Browns Stadium "...the $3.4 million expense, which was approved by City Council’s Committee of the Whole on Wednesday, is not part of that potential deal. Instead, it’s mandated under the terms of the current lease with the team from 1998, which requires the city to cover capital repairs at the stadium. The full council is expected to approve the money later on Wednesday. The sum includes $2.6 million to replace pedestrian ramps, and $550,000 to replace gutters – both deemed to be “emergency” repairs. It also includes about $300,000 for air-conditioning repairs in the stadium’s IT room, Mayor’s Office of Capital Projects Director James DeRosa told council." https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2023/08/amid-lease-talks-cleveland-to-sign-off-on-34m-in-repairs-to-browns-stadium.html Looks like some routine repairs to Browns stadium. (Costing taxpayer money). Some speculation about more substantial future stadium repairs/build, nothing new though.
September 8, 20231 yr Browns: clock ticking on stadium deal By Ken Prendergast / September 8, 2023 Two sources, one a city of Cleveland source and the other a Cleveland Browns source, acknowledge that the clock is ticking down to a deadline that the Browns source termed as “a matter of months, certainly less than a year” for working out a deal that will keep the Browns in the city rather than turning to the suburbs for a new football stadium location. And they both acknowledge the city is offering no direct financial assistance to make major renovations to the city-owned stadium MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/09/08/browns-clock-ticking-on-stadium-deal/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 8, 20231 yr There is seriously something wrong in this county and frankly region if the suburbs are able to poach the Browns away. Downtown has lost enough already. The suburbanites here would want nothing more for the whole urban center to become a giant East Cleveland.
September 8, 20231 yr 2028 sounds “forever” away - but it’s actually definitely getting close in terms of a significant development project. I hope the city realizes the opportunity it has to create something special for the next generation or two (hopefully) of Cleveland residents. Do it right stakeholders- make a reasonable common sense deal to keep the team downtown. And while I’m throwing in my two cents - go ahead and build a new stadium on the near east side of downtown to activate both that dead zone and a new lakefront that will transform Cleveland’s lakefront for decades to come.
September 8, 20231 yr Neither of the suburban sites mentioned in the article comes without problems. So the city of Cleveland owns the east side site in Highland Hills. Nothing requires them to sell it for a stadium. As for the Brook Park site, how would that city be in any better position than Cleveland to contribute financially to a stadium? Unless the Haslams just move there out of spite but end up having to pay for it themselves. Sure, there will be a state contribution under most any scenario. But large, freeway adjacent suburban tracts are hard to come by around here Just ask IKEA.
September 8, 20231 yr Sorry off topic but I’m also in the west end thread for Cincinnati funny how they’re talking about the city wanting another stadium in the same district as TQL stadium that was just built mean while our city leaders seem evasive
September 9, 20231 yr Can someone please explain to me just how you capture revenue by funding a development and how it can be done year. The Haslams are capturing revenue from up to 270,000 square feet of commercial and office space along with new luxury and affordable housing to help finance the stadium. A similar approach is desired by the city of Cleveland — funding development around Cleveland Browns Stadium and capturing revenues from that development for stadium renovations. In Columbus, private funding of Lower.com Field amounted to $217.5 million with another $20 million from the state, $25 million from a state-funded loan and $51.3 million in bonds paid for by Franklin County. The city of Columbus’ share amounted to $63 million for developing the mixed-use Astor Park development and pledged another $50 million to turn the Crew’s previous stadium site into the team’s training center and a community sports park.
September 9, 20231 yr I don’t really get the suburban options either. I guess the Browns are betting the county will save the day with public money? No suburb has money to pitch in for that. Not to mention the NIMBY rebellion it would inspire. This is such an odd thing to observe. They are running out of time they say but no one has publicly shared a proposal one way or the other. Just seems like both sides are using stories like this to try and exert leverage in back room negotiations. Seems like the Browns have a weak hand since no suburban city or county has showed much interest, at least publicly. Edited September 9, 20231 yr by coneflower
September 9, 20231 yr 11 hours ago, coneflower said: I don’t really get the suburban options either. I guess the Browns are betting the county will save the day with public money? No suburb has money to pitch in for that. Not to mention the NIMBY rebellion it would inspire. This is such an odd thing to observe. They are running out of time they say but no one has publicly shared a proposal one way or the other. Just seems like both sides are using stories like this to try and exert leverage in back room negotiations. Seems like the Browns have a weak hand since no suburban city or county has showed much interest, at least publicly. I don’t see any scenario where Ronayne undercuts Bibb. This thing will probably end up on the old Richfield Coliseum site lol. The revenge of Summit County!
September 9, 20231 yr On 8/10/2023 at 11:58 AM, Gordon Bombay said: I also don’t believe that MLS allows this anymore which is how the Hunt family ended up with just the Dallas club. Bigger than that there is pretty much a Zero percent chance Major League Soccer puts a third team in Ohio.
September 9, 20231 yr 18 minutes ago, 646empire said: Bigger than that there is pretty much a Zero percent chance Major League Soccer puts a third team in Ohio. If someone with enough money wants it they’ll get it, but to your point between the 3 cities they all don’t share the same league… yet columbus NHL MLS ——— AAA Guardians MLS Next Cleveland NFL NBA MLB ——— G Leauge MLS Next - coming soon AHL Cincinnati NFL MLB MLS ——— MLS Next ECHL Edited September 9, 20231 yr by BoomerangCleRes
September 9, 20231 yr The site the Haslam's want on the east side by the muni lot is the perfect location IMO for lots of reasons. It is very similar to what they did with the US Bank Stadium in Minnesota, one of, if not the most revered and liked stadiums in the NFL.
September 9, 20231 yr ^I like that location as well. But way too many individual property owners. Land acquisition would be a nightmare and take forever and probably cost a fortune.
September 9, 20231 yr ^ Agreed. That's why I favor the area south of Tower City near the post office. It's a dead zone and will never see any significant development. Land acquisition will be easier. It seems like the perfect place for a facility that will only be used a dozen or so times per year. Edited September 9, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd
September 9, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, 646empire said: Bigger than that there is pretty much a Zero percent chance Major League Soccer puts a third team in Ohio. Which makes no sense to me. Are NEO not still a region of 4.5 million people? How many people around here give a crap about the Crew, let alone Cincy's soccer team, whatever they're called?
September 9, 20231 yr 26 minutes ago, X said: Which makes no sense to me. Are NEO not still a region of 4.5 million people? How many people around here give a crap about the Crew, let alone Cincy's soccer team, whatever they're called? I’ve been to both FC Cincinnati and Crew matches the energy of the fans is about on par with a Cavs playoff game, we no doubt have the population and the passionate fan base where it could work not only that the interstate matches and games wether nfl or mls always brings more attention/intrigue on top of that we could use something to follow that’s more high paced than baseball in the summer Edited September 9, 20231 yr by BoomerangCleRes
September 9, 20231 yr 44 minutes ago, X said: Which makes no sense to me. Are NEO not still a region of 4.5 million people? How many people around here give a crap about the Crew, let alone Cincy's soccer team, whatever they're called? I get your point but there is a lot more to it than regional population. Also the fact that folks in Cleveland don’t give a crap about The Crew and FC Cincinnati is not actually a positive for Cleveland ever getting Major League Soccer. But on the flip side The Crew and FC Cincinnati in particular are extremely successful without Cleveland support which In some ways is a positive in that those 2 franchises wouldn’t hurt at all from Cleveland ever getting a team with minimal overlap of fan support. It’s complicated lol. Edited September 9, 20231 yr by 646empire
September 9, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said: If someone with enough money wants it they’ll get it Yes but mostly no. The league like most pro leagues which is made up of billionaire ownership groups have to split those expansion fees 26+ ways depending on the number of teams so adding new franchises isn’t really all that profitable once you get to a certain number. The better thing to do is to stop at 28ish or 30 (as you can see looking around) and allow the existing franchises to simply grow in value which they are ALOT. At which point if anyone wants one they are going to have to pay premium and buy an existing one. For example there a lot of extremely wealthy people around the world who would buy a NFL team TODAY if the league was as willing to just add new franchises but that isn’t happening because it would dilute the “exclusive” club among others reasons. The last MLS franchise went for 500 Million dollars so any more teams would be 700 plus million or more as well. One more example Dan Gilbert is wealthy and wanted MLS in Detroit and it didn’t happen. Money can’t always buy everything timing and public support is just as important and at 30 Teams I think the MLS cake is pretty fully baked when it come to expansion Maybe 32 at some point max. Edited September 9, 20231 yr by 646empire
September 9, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said: The site the Haslam's want on the east side by the muni lot is the perfect location IMO for lots of reasons. It is very similar to what they did with the US Bank Stadium in Minnesota, one of, if not the most revered and liked stadiums in the NFL. Unless you want to see concerts in the stadium, where the US Bank building is famously bad for it's accoustics! https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/us-bank-stadium-concert-sound-concerns/
September 9, 20231 yr 44 minutes ago, 646empire said: Yes but mostly no. The league like most pro leagues which is made up of billionaire ownership groups have to split those expansion fees 26+ ways depending on the number of teams so adding new franchises isn’t really all that profitable once you get to a certain number. The better thing to do is to stop at 28ish or 30 (as you can see looking around) and allow the existing franchises to simply grow in value which they are ALOT. At which point if anyone wants one they are going to have to pay premium and buy an existing one. For example there a lot of extremely wealthy people around the world who would buy a NFL team TODAY if the league was as willing to just add new franchises but that isn’t happening because it would dilute the “exclusive” club among others reasons. The last MLS franchise went for 500 Million dollars so any more teams would be 700 plus million or more as well. One more example Dan Gilbert is wealthy and wanted MLS in Detroit and it didn’t happen. Money can’t always buy everything timing and public support is just as important and at 30 Teams I think the MLS cake is pretty fully baked when it come to expansion Maybe 32 at some point max. I hear you, and you’re not saying never just like the commissioner of the league said. Also to note there will be an imbalance of teams between eastern and western conferences again when San Diego and Las Vegas get added, leaving a the door open for the eastern side of the country https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/how-many-teams-mls-2023-is-further-expansion-planned/blt993e93707c3d74d0
September 9, 20231 yr ^ Agreed. That's why I favor the area south of Tower City near the post office. It's a dead zone and will never see any significant development. Land acquisition will be easier. It seems like the perfect place for a facility that will only be used a dozen or so times per year. I mentioned this as my preferred site for those reasons on top of it being by a highway which is attractive for a couple of reasons, suburbanites that want to get in and out of the city and if it’s a ballpark village getting built then it is great for visitors to easily access the hotels, bars etc. Couple that with it being located by Progressive field and Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse (relatively close) it creates an arena district of sorts and also extends downtown, especially if more development follows.Isn’t that the area as well that was being considered for the relocation of the redline I believe? That could be the perfect opportunity to add rail over there if it gets extensively developed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
September 9, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said: I’ve been to both FC Cincinnati and Crew matches the energy of the fans is about on par with a Cavs playoff game Eh. So have I and they’re nowhere close to a Cavs playoff, not even in the same realm. Edited September 9, 20231 yr by Clefan98
September 9, 20231 yr 25 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: I mentioned this as my preferred site for those reasons on top of it being by a highway which is attractive for a couple of reasons, suburbanites that want to get in and out of the city and if it’s a ballpark village getting built then it is great for visitors to easily access the hotels, bars etc. Couple that with it being located by Progressive field and Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse (relatively close) it creates an arena district of sorts and also extends downtown, especially if more development follows. Isn’t that the area as well that was being considered for the relocation of the redline I believe? That could be the perfect opportunity to add rail over there if it gets extensively developed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If we have the choice I’d want to avoid this location since it wouldn’t be much of an arena district if it’s cut off by a major freeway underpass. Feel like the north east spot would be the best (given there’s a lot of hurdles) second best being just keeping it where it’s at
September 9, 20231 yr If we have the choice I’d want to avoid this location since it wouldn’t be much of an arena district if it’s cut off by a major freeway underpass. Feel like the north east spot would be the best (given there’s a lot of hurdles) second best being just keeping it where it’s at Put a stadium that (looks like will be open air again due to no one wanting to pay) on prime land again, taking away from development opportunities. Or placing it on land that is in the city, near downtown, few hurdle’s/objections compared to other sites and still accessible but is separated enough to where it isn’t seen as prime land. This site is perfect for such a limited use structure tbh. It’s like having our cake (keeping the Browns downtown in the city) and eating it too (having the Browns downtown still while avoiding using up desirable land since it won’t be used much).Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
September 9, 20231 yr 3 hours ago, Clefan98 said: Eh. So have I and they’re nowhere close to a Cavs playoff, not even in the same realm. I know that soccer is becoming popular, but it will always be the “5th”sport in America. RMFH has as big a capacity as the soccer stadium in Columbus. If 20,000 seats or so stadiums are all that’s required, the MLS is pretty small time stuff.
September 10, 20231 yr I guess l don't understand why any particular suburb has more money to throw at a stadium than a city the size of Cleveland. Not that Cleveland has a lot either. So assuming a new stadium gets built somewhere in NEO the reason l prefer Cleveland is l don't want to lose any money spent on hotels and restaurants/bars. Plus just having more people moving around downtown adds to the vibrancy if that's what we're calling life downtown these days.
September 10, 20231 yr 22 hours ago, Cleveland Rising said: I know that soccer is becoming popular, but it will always be the “5th”sport in America. RMFH has as big a capacity as the soccer stadium in Columbus. If 20,000 seats or so stadiums are all that’s required, the MLS is pretty small time stuff. Soccer is the biggest sport in the world, the idea that it can’t/won’t eclipse baseball or hockey for that matter someday is very short sighted. I can actually see it surpassing Hockey in short order. Also I’m not sure how you’re equating 20,000 seat stadiums to being “pretty small time” doesn’t makes any sense. NBA arenas hover around the exact same size so what’s your point?
September 10, 20231 yr This is just a pragmatic thought, but if the stadium were to go elsewhere and that space on the lakefront were available for total redevelopment, would there really be any way to bring anything else to fruition? I am not a developer but another thread on this forum this week got me researching how the DC Wharf got funding, and what I took away is that it seems like you need hugely deep-pocketed investors/developers interested in doing hard things who can find lots of like-minded public and private partners to piece together all the resources to do something transformative. I am not a Haslam super fan and I am not sure I’d like all their ideas, but from the outside it seems like they are the best shot at spearheading anything major in that area alongside the stadium. Who else has the ability to make it happen? Plus they would probably have a better chance advocating in Columbus for funding and support than the city of Cleveland itself.
September 11, 20231 yr On 9/8/2023 at 6:35 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: There is seriously something wrong in this county and frankly region if the suburbs are able to poach the Browns away. Downtown has lost enough already. The suburbanites here would want nothing more for the whole urban center to become a giant East Cleveland. The county is on the hook for a new Justice Center and Courthouse (among other projects) and the city can't even provide basic services across the board. Not sure where the Haslam's get the idea that either has money, the state will have to come up big and you know that won't happen. You personally complain about the quality of life in Cleveland alllllll the time in the Crime and Safety thread - is bonding hundreds of millions of dollars for a billionaire going to get us more cops? More firefighters/EMS? Better services? No. (And Ken does a great job of elaborating on this). Study after study has shown that NFL stadiums, after massive subsidies, have very little overall economic impact: https://globalsportmatters.com/business/2022/06/15/so-your-city-wants-sports-stadium/#:~:text=Though the research methods%2C time,economic impacts on local communities. https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/april-2001/should-cities-pay-for-sports-facilities https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2022/03/31/nfl-stadiums-taxpayer-funded-buffalo-bills/7217852001/ https://www.planetizen.com/news/2022/08/118245-sports-stadiums-bring-few-economic-benefits https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/01/15/cities-should-not-pay-for-new-stadiums/ https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/ https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/taxpayer-funded-football-stadiums-rarely-pay-off-so-why-do-cities-keep-foo/635721/ Edited September 11, 20231 yr by GISguy
September 11, 20231 yr To be honest I don’t think Haslam has much leverage here if he is truly sticking to the “Staying in NEO” route. No city or county is going to have or going to want to put up the amount of resources that Cleveland or Cuyahoga County can or has the ability to. Essentially it would be a downgraded stadium. In Cleveland he’s looking for a $1 billion - $2 billion stadium but if he were to move to another city that figure would drop significantly due to lack of resources compared to Cleveland as well as public support. If he said yes to a downgraded $500 million stadium or kicked in more of his own money just to get a stadium built why couldn’t he do that in Cleveland. Only reason I would see would be to spite Cleveland.Now if he changed gears and threatened to leave to Columbus that would be different. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
September 11, 20231 yr 7 hours ago, GISguy said: The county is on the hook for a new Justice Center and Courthouse (among other projects) and the city can't even provide basic services across the board. Not sure where the Haslam's get the idea that either has money, the state will have to come up big and you know that won't happen. You personally complain about the quality of life in Cleveland alllllll the time in the Crime and Safety thread - is bonding hundreds of millions of dollars for a billionaire going to get us more cops? More firefighters/EMS? Better services? No. (And Ken does a great job of elaborating on this). Study after study has shown that NFL stadiums, after massive subsidies, have very little overall economic impact: https://globalsportmatters.com/business/2022/06/15/so-your-city-wants-sports-stadium/#:~:text=Though the research methods%2C time,economic impacts on local communities. https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/april-2001/should-cities-pay-for-sports-facilities https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2022/03/31/nfl-stadiums-taxpayer-funded-buffalo-bills/7217852001/ https://www.planetizen.com/news/2022/08/118245-sports-stadiums-bring-few-economic-benefits https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mje/2022/01/15/cities-should-not-pay-for-new-stadiums/ https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/ https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/taxpayer-funded-football-stadiums-rarely-pay-off-so-why-do-cities-keep-foo/635721/ Listen, I'm not one advocating the city and county pay for it. But in today's NFL and sports environment, the metros are expected to pay the bill. So if the county were to pay for it, there is no way it should be situated in the suburbs. And if the state were to fork over cash (fat chance), it would be another finger to the city, by the state, putting the stadium in the burbs.
September 11, 20231 yr Didn’t the state put money in for the Progressive Field renovations with the caveat being the Guardians stay in Cleveland? I can see something like that happening as well.
September 11, 20231 yr 14 minutes ago, JB said: Didn’t the state put money in for the Progressive Field renovations with the caveat being the Guardians stay in Cleveland? I can see something like that happening as well. The State piece is a very interesting part especially because both of Ohios NFL teams are planning giant upgrades at the same time so I’d assume it would be matching/very similar contributions which may keep amounts smaller.
September 12, 20231 yr Thought I’d look into what I’ve always believed to be the case that if you’re investing in Columbus the state(aka the capitol) will contribute more so I looked at the breakdowns of lower.com and TQL stadiums also looked to get a feel for how much of the project was paid for with public funds Crew The area got a 1.04 billion investment 313mil for the stadium *not including land acquisition 150 mil in public funds 45 mil from the state 51 mil in bonds paid for by the county 155 mil from Haslam 113 mil unrelated to the stadium from the city to convert the old stadium to a training facility and develop Astor park (arena district: 25mil on a parking garage, 2 mil on ped bridge, 50 mil on infrastructure) Crew also has a clause in the lease to be able to buy the stadium for 30% of market value Team pays 83cent a month in rent to the county ——————————— FC Cincinnati 250m stadium 16m from state 34m from the city for infrastructure 200m in private investment 17m parking garage 1.25m from the state Rest from the county
September 12, 20231 yr 10 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said: Crew also has a clause in the lease to be able to buy the stadium for 30% of market value That’s very interesting. Wow Edited September 12, 20231 yr by 646empire
September 12, 20231 yr Theres maybe only 4 or 5 cities in America that have the leverage and the private wealth base where world class stadiums can be constructed without public money being fleeced. Even a major metro like Atlanta dished out 700m for the Falcons stadium barely 25 years after the Georgia Dome opened. You either lose the team or grudingly fund a deal which is a "lesser evil" so to speak. Theres no way a militant stance of no public funding is going to keep major league teams in cities like Cleveland.
September 12, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, snakebite said: Theres maybe only 4 or 5 cities in America that have the leverage and the private wealth base where world class stadiums can be constructed without public money being fleeced. Even a major metro like Atlanta dished out 700m for the Falcons stadium barely 25 years after the Georgia Dome opened. You either lose the team or grudingly fund a deal which is a "lesser evil" so to speak. Theres no way a militant stance of no public funding is going to keep major league teams in cities like Cleveland. I guess but where are the Browns going?
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