Not completely Browns’ stadium related, but this was posted by Berea’s mayor on Facebook.  Seems to confirm @KJP’s earlier reporting about a Browns mixed-use development in Berea.

Edited September 12, 20231 yr by acd

29 minutes ago, acd said:

Not completely Browns’ stadium related, but this was posted by Berea’s mayor on Facebook.  Seems to confirm @KJP’s earlier reporting about a Browns mixed-use development in Berea.

Is the only benefit for the browns in having their practice facilities and offices in Berea just that land is cheaper?

 

otherwise they’re still dealing with the same state and county just a different city with smaller wallets 

Edited September 12, 20231 yr by BoomerangCleRes

@snakebiteis exactly right. If we want the Browns to stay within the city limits, a lot of public funding is going to be required. I’m a Cuyahoga County taxpayer and I’d like a dome built somewhere near downtown. This endeavor will cost billions of dollars… not millions. It’s informative to look at the funding breakdown for the MLS stadiums, but this potential project/investment would be in another realm entirely. 

29 minutes ago, Cleveland Rising said:

@snakebiteis exactly right. If we want the Browns to stay within the city limits, a lot of public funding is going to be required. I’m a Cuyahoga County taxpayer and I’d like a dome built somewhere near downtown. This endeavor will cost billions of dollars… not millions. It’s informative to look at the funding breakdown for the MLS stadiums, but this potential project/investment would be in another realm entirely. 

Percentages could could be similar though 

Also should we pay closer attention to the bengals negotiations, their lease ends in pretty much two years and they’ve yet to come to any agreement (although they might just be looking for renovations?)

I guess but where are the Browns going? 

Atlanta [emoji276]


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8 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Atlanta


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We should just move Cleveland to Atlanta.  Our growth would skyrocket!

2 hours ago, bumsquare said:

I guess but where are the Browns going? 

Jokes aside, my best serious guesses would be St. Louis, Portland, or Austin. 

 

To be clear, I don't think the Browns are leaving, nor do I want them to. 

 

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/

 

http://m.thepostgame.com/largest-us-markets-without-major-pro-sports-team

This is my thing. If the Haslam’s are leaning towards keeping an open air stadium and (I would assume) it would be in the same location and of similar size, why are we building an entirely new stadium.

Why not do what the Cavs (to a lesser extent) and the Guardians have done and complete extensive renovations to the existing structure? It seems like a waste of resources to build a new structure that doesn’t do much different than the old one.


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24 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

This is my thing. If the Haslam’s are leaning towards keeping an open air stadium and (I would assume) it would be in the same location and of similar size, why are we building an entirely new stadium.

Why not do what the Cavs (to a lesser extent) and the Guardians have done and complete extensive renovations to the existing structure? It seems like a waste of resources to build a new structure that doesn’t do much different than the old one.


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“Waste” is not something these people think about.  They want what they want, and they’re used to getting it.  And what they want mostly is more revenue (and profit) generating opportunities.

1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said:

This is my thing. If the Haslam’s are leaning towards keeping an open air stadium and (I would assume) it would be in the same location and of similar size, why are we building an entirely new stadium.

Why not do what the Cavs (to a lesser extent) and the Guardians have done and complete extensive renovations to the existing structure? It seems like a waste of resources to build a new structure that doesn’t do much different than the old one.


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The current Browns stadium needs extensive rebuilding..  basically done to the studs.   Plus its near impossible to get into in a timely fashion

 

If they’re going to keep it on the lakefront - doesn’t  it guarantee that the Browns have to play at an alternative site out of town for at least two seasons - possibly in Columbus?  The Haslams might be just fine with that scenario but it’s not a positive for Cleveland at all.   Another reason to just build on a new site, preferably somewhere near or on the edge of downtown. 

Long time lurker here... I don't think this has been brought up or asked about on here,. 

 

If the current stadium is overhauled, couldn't they just do it 2 sides at a time over 2 years or so, and not have to move games to another city?  Demo the south and western portions of the stadium, can probably still get 30k at games. *please don't roast me as I'm just some ahole who doesn't know any better

 

I prefer a new stadium downtown or in it's current location, w direct rta rapid access. 

16 hours ago, Cleveland Rising said:

This endeavor will cost billions of dollars… not millions.

 

As of a 2022 Cleveland.com article, the county is 1.5B in debt and can (at that time) bond another $2.3B. Between a jail and courthouse (and a tax hike to boot) you're coming up pretty close to that $2.3B number. The city's bonding capacity isn't as transparent but I'd imagine it's much lower. Not sure how it's possible to pay for half of a massive billion+ dollar project.

 

People have moved out of the city because of quality of life issues - life within city limits (we're in the top five poorest cities on the regular) isn't going to improve if we give more money to the Haslams. 

Edited September 13, 20231 yr by GISguy

14 hours ago, Ethan said:

Jokes aside, my best serious guesses would be St. Louis, Portland, or Austin. 

 

To be clear, I don't think the Browns are leaving, nor do I want them to. 

 

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/

 

http://m.thepostgame.com/largest-us-markets-without-major-pro-sports-team

These are really cool links. This type of stuff always fascinates me. Thanks for posting them.

16 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Also should we pay closer attention to the bengals negotiations, their lease ends in pretty much two years and they’ve yet to come to any agreement (although they might just be looking for renovations?)

Yeah the Bengals want a renovation, Overall architecturally the shell of their stadium looks pretty modern but needs to be totally updated from a fan experience along with some structural work. I’m thinking in total 700mil range. Hamilton County commissioners (Cincinnati) actually came out and said they kinda prefer a new enclosed venue but the bengals said no not needed and I agree. 2024 is going to be a big year for a Cincy stadium deal. Focus will turn quickly once the Convention Center and Hotel plan finalizes in the coming weeks. It seems like their is more support for a new venue in Cleveland over Cincinnati.

On 9/13/2023 at 9:44 AM, GISguy said:

As of a 2022 Cleveland.com article, the county is 1.5B in debt and can (at that time) bond another $2.3B. Between a jail and courthouse (and a tax hike to boot) you're coming up pretty close to that $2.3B number. The city's bonding capacity isn't as transparent but I'd imagine it's much lower. Not sure how it's possible to pay for half of a massive billion+ dollar project.

 

People have moved out of the city because of quality of life issues - life within city limits (we're in the top five poorest cities on the regular) isn't going to improve if we give more money to the Haslams.

 

I just read an interesting article about the economic impact of stadiums.  Among other points, it highlights what @GISguyis getting at by describing what they call an "opportunity cost".  Basically, if we get use taxpayer money for a stadium, it means we're not getting something else with that money.  

 

https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-that-sports-stadiums-create-new-jobs-and-tax-revenues/

It's a fascinating story. We need a new jail and courthouse. But that is a super depressing way to spend a billion dollars compared to a new football stadium and potentially sparking development near the lakefront. I don't know anything but politically it seems crazy to me for Bibb or Ronanye to say "we don't need the Browns, we're building a jail!" I doubt they would do that. 

Edited September 14, 20231 yr by coneflower

don't forget the land bridge!

16 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

don't forget the land bridge!

Which is a cornerstone of what our politicians should be fighting for here.   If there is going to be public money then the development should be transformational in connecting the lakefront to downtown.    There should also be residential, restaurants and retail.   And IMO, the Browns should move their offices and practice facilities there as well. If we are going to invest in the stadium, then the Browns should be real partners in investing in our lakefront. 

I think the Lakefront and Riverfront are interesting comparisons.  They are two waterfront properties of somewhat relatively similar size and adjacent to downtown.  They are both largely cutoff from downtown, have huge infrastructure hurdles to development, and have been discussed and masterplanned for decades with no results.  They both have major stakeholders with deep pockets.  That said, both are approaching development in completely different ways.

 

The prevailing approach to the Lakefront has been "...if only these major infrastructure hurdles could be fixed, there's no doubt that large scale, first class would surely follow" ...it seems they are waiting for the bureaucrats to take the lead.

 

Meanwhile on the Riverfront, the prevailing approach appears to be "...we're bringing large scale, first class development to this site.  Once we have the projects tee'd up, we'll tell you what we need to make it happen"...it seems like developers are taking the lead here.

 

It's kind of a chicken and egg thing and it will be interesting to see which approach will result in development and investment.

On 9/12/2023 at 11:05 PM, FrankRizzo said:

Long time lurker here... I don't think this has been brought up or asked about on here,. 

 

If the current stadium is overhauled, couldn't they just do it 2 sides at a time over 2 years or so, and not have to move games to another city?  Demo the south and western portions of the stadium, can probably still get 30k at games. *please don't roast me as I'm just some ahole who doesn't know any better

 

I prefer a new stadium downtown or in its current location, w direct rta rapid access. 

Honestly they probably could, but:

1. There would be additional costs due to maintaining access and ability to host games

2. Team would lose ticket/parking/concession revenue and I’m guessing that’s unacceptable to them

Browns Stadium news. https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/browns/funding-the-future-of-cleveland-browns-stadium-team-area-leaders-negotiations/95-dbb593a8-628c-4639-964d-66b29eddbe97

2 hours ago, simplythis said:

Browns Stadium news. https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/browns/funding-the-future-of-cleveland-browns-stadium-team-area-leaders-negotiations/95-dbb593a8-628c-4639-964d-66b29eddbe97

 

^ they meet monthly and are leaning toward a Q1 commitment toward a reno.

 

ok that works. cheapest option too. 

 

Proof that the Browns could move from Berea and have an urban practice facility. 

 

Any negotiation for public money should also include a move from Berea, and an investment in their football villiage on the lakefront. 

23 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Proof that the Browns could move from Berea and have an urban practice facility. 

 

Any negotiation for public money should also include a move from Berea, and an investment in their football villiage on the lakefront. 

I 100% agree if they want public money it would help to move the practice facility to Cleveland but others have made a good point should we give away land for more football fields, if the spot makes sense then I’m down with that I think it makes more sense for Cleveland. 
 

however don’t get the bengals “facility” confused with something nice it’s bare minimums and the only reason they had to get an inflatable dome is because University of Cincinnati’s practice field/lacrosse field that had an inflatable dome for winter months is being removed to get an actually domed stadium so the bengals needed somewhere to practice in the winter. 

But maybe similar to the bengals practice fields the browns could go for an under/near an interstate bridge that could be river front like maybe under 90 near the Cavs new practice facility…

Didn't the state award major tax breaks (or some incentive) for their Berea facility? I'm also not sure Cinci's practice facility is something to aspire to unless it involves public interaction. Practice Facilities/Football HQ's are usually pretty walled off and kind of a big waste of space. Not like the public is going to be allowed in during practices or anything (outside of training camp).

21 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Didn't the state award major tax breaks (or some incentive) for their Berea facility? I'm also not sure Cinci's practice facility is something to aspire to unless it involves public interaction. Practice Facilities/Football HQ's are usually pretty walled off and kind of a big waste of space. Not like the public is going to be allowed in during practices or anything (outside of training camp).

 

Not anymore. The teams are turning them into year-round development sites with lots of corporate branding and sports lifestyle stuff. Look at what the Cowboys and the Vikings have done. 

Lets start by me saying this I HATE and I mean HATE the Pittsburgh Steelers. But one thing I will commend them for is their stadium layout. My dad and I recently attended the Browns vs. Steelers game (yes that game) and one thing that impressed me was the experience of walking to their stadium. Leading up to Art Rooney Way they had a MASSIVE team shop at the base of a parking garage with their sports gear, run by Rallyhouse Sports that had massive glass windows and doors making it feel open and airy. I feel that is something that can be replicated here in Cleveland along West 3rd street right by the West 3rd street WFL station. Build a parking garage (to maintain parking on the port parking lot) with the option to add housing later on the existing port lot and move the team shop that has outside access and shift it over there, make it open year round and partner with Ralleyhouse or Fanatics/Lids (Same company) to run it. If they want to add additional commercial space such as a sports bar that would be a bonus but now that area has activity, especially since West 3rd is always packed with fans before and after games.

 

Leading up to entering the Steelers Stadium they have restaurants at the base of the stadium open during games with a pedestrian only street (or at least it was during the game). We can do the same to Al Lerner Way, with how little traffic it gets already it and with it sharing the same road as GLSC and the Rock Hall, close it to car traffic permanently making it a bike and pedestrian only space. Once Al Lerner Way is closed, the Browns renovations should include shifting the Key Club entrance somewhere else and converting that space into a restaurant or other commercial space and the same goes with the (now empty) pro shop. Al Lerner Way being pedestrian only also opens up opportunities to host Browns fan fest events, tailgates and also allows GLSC and the Rock Hall to expand their programming. 

 

If all of that is done, now you have the an active space on west 3rd, and reinventing the use of the Key Club and the Pro Shop allows Browns stadium to be used after the season ends in some capacity.

The growth of the North Shore has been a slow-ish burn but it's definitely come into it's own at this point. A lot of the buildings around there took ~10 years of the stadiums being there to be built. There's still a bunch of surface lots, but they've also converted a bunch to uses that activate the area year round. It's definitely a good example of what's possible!

Cleveland is very fortunate to still have 3 major sports teams considering the loss of population. They all play downtown too. I think that is one heck of a selling point. All 3 teams are well supported by the fans which reinforces Cleveland as a major league city. I would hate to see the Browns playing in the suburbs or out of the Cleveland metro. While it has been stated that football stadiums don't provide a good ROI, I think a lot of intangibles are not being considered. We all want to see more foot traffic downtown. Wouldn't having no stadium mean 500-600k fewer people downtown annually? How could that not hurt businesses? I would love to see a stadium like the one in Minneapolis built in the area east of downtown, but economic realities make that nearly impossible. It's easy to wish for these things, but nice things take money. It is an uphill challenge for an industrial, rustbelt city like Cleveland to reverse the exodus of people. The city and county need to focus on improving quality of life to attract more people. They need to create an environment that attracts businesses like Intel, Google, Amazon like what is happening here in the Columbus area. 

^ Cleveland has lost population, but NE Ohio population has been pretty stable.  I think it is around 3M.

Isn't a stagnated population effectively the same as a shrinking one, since the country is growing?

 

That aside, the jury is still out about the city's net gain/loss from keeping the Browns. Cleveland's "Comeback City" years occurred when the Browns were gone, and it was a wonderful sea of optimism and fun we haven't seen since. People would just spend their money elsewhere.

 

Also, I don't know if the idiots tailgaiting in parking lots contribute much to the city's economic engine. Are hotels at capacity those weekends? Do restaurants and the anemic retail see any real boost? Maybe, maybe not, but I can't believe it's to the tune of 100s of millions of dollars.

 

I'd love a new stadium/complex akin to SoFi Stadium or even BallPark Village. Just get Jimmy to cough up billions or work with the NFL to give a consortium representing Cleveland equity in the team. But for god's sake, no more free money to these criminals and their sexual predator quarterbacks.

I think the comparisons to Pittsburgh's North Shore are very on point.  The North Shore is on the waterfront and disconnected from the surrounding neighborhood by topography, highways and train tracks.  The size of the area is somewhat comparable to the lakefront too, and both are served by light rail.  The big difference is that Pittsburgh's North Shore isn't immediately adjacent to its downtown (it's across the river), whereas Cleveland's Lakefront is (Point for Cleveland!).  Yet the North Shore has seen development and the Lakefront hasn't.  So it makes me question all the reasons that are typically given for a lack of development on the lakefront.  Do we really need a landbridge to get development going?  Do we really need to move a highway?  Do we really need to create public waterfront access?  Those would all be nice, but I wonder if those are really impeding development.  Pittsburgh's North Shore has all those same issues and it didn't stop them.

Yes to all of your questions.

I hate to admit it, but Pittsburgh seems to know how to get things done.  Whereas Cleveland just keeps kicking the can down the road.

 

Edited September 29, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

Ten Fortune 500 companies, the desirability of Carnegie Mellon and Pitts (and perhaps some other colleges/universities of which I'm unfamliar), the landlocked nature of the city, wealthy neigborhoods like Shady Side and Squirrel Hill, demographics (about 70% white), poverty (20%)... it all adds up to Pittsburgh being an affordable Boston where things get done.

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I hate to admit it, but Pittsburgh seems to know how to get things done.  Whereas Cleveland just keeps kicking the can down the road.

 

 

For better or worse, and after living both places, I've always told folks PGH feels 10 years ahead of Cleveland. Likewise, I've called Cinci a less pretentious PGH lol. 

 

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

Ten Fortune 500 companies, the desirability of Carnegie Mellon and Pitts (and perhaps some other colleges/universities of which I'm unfamliar), the landlocked nature of the city, wealthy neigborhoods like Shady Side and Squirrel Hill, demographics (about 70% white), poverty (20%)... it all adds up to Pittsburgh being an affordable Boston where things get done.

 

They really embrace their schools - we do to an extent here but it's really engrained in their culture. Also worth mentioning - Duquesne (dooo-kane), Chatham, Point Park, etc. etc.

 

5 hours ago, Dino said:

So it makes me question all the reasons that are typically given for a lack of development on the lakefront.  Do we really need a landbridge to get development going?  Do we really need to move a highway?  Do we really need to create public waterfront access? 

 

I used to live up from the stadiums in the East Allegheny neighborhood (2014-16ish) and it's pretty wild how much has changed and how quickly it's changed/pieces added (mostly converting surface parking into buildings). They embrace their waterfront (like our plan by the stadium) with some really nice paths and access points for water based recreation. You can also tie up your boat and live there until your boat sinks, plenty of stories of folks taking their boats down there post divorce and hanging out lol. But long story short, there's a lot to do on the water and up above so that it's active year round. Stage AE (music venue akin to HOB), Southern Tier, country bar, etc etc., keep things rolling in the offseason and off nights. I don't think there's any immediate housing in between stadiums, but if you go past the Roberto Clemente bridge, apartments start up. It's an easy walk to get to bars and venues if you wanted to. It's a healthy mix.

 

I think the closest thing we have to some blocks in the North Shore is FEB, hopefully once Bedrock builds out we'll have a contiguous boardwalk to enjoy our water.

 

Mods, my bad, I tried! to bring it back around to the stadium...

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

Ten Fortune 500 companies, the desirability of Carnegie Mellon and Pitts (and perhaps some other colleges/universities of which I'm unfamliar), the landlocked nature of the city, wealthy neigborhoods like Shady Side and Squirrel Hill, demographics (about 70% white), poverty (20%)... it all adds up to Pittsburgh being an affordable Boston where things get done.

My wife is from Pittsburgh. I went to Pitt. We often talk the similarities between the two, but not the differences. Both towns were steel towns. However, the demographics and past histories are completely different. Pittsburgh saw little to no white flight. Pittsburgh did not have large riots in the 60s. Pittsburgh also lost a lot of their industry over night in the early 80s which helped the region  quickly shed its industrial past. I could go on. All this factors make a difference in the development over the last 30 years. 

31 minutes ago, Sir2geez said:

My wife is from Pittsburgh. I went to Pitt. We often talk the similarities between the two, but not the differences. Both towns were steel towns. However, the demographics and past histories are completely different. Pittsburgh saw little to no white flight. Pittsburgh did not have large riots in the 60s. Pittsburgh also lost a lot of their industry over night in the early 80s which helped the region  quickly shed its industrial past. I could go on. All this factors make a difference in the development over the last 30 years. 

I always thought the hilly terrain was to its benefit. Cleveland is surrounded by flatlands, ready made for mass developments, not possible with Pittsburgh’s surrounding steep hills. 

9 hours ago, TBideon said:

Also, I don't know if the idiots tailgaiting in parking lots contribute much to the city's economic engine. Are hotels at capacity those weekends?

Last weekend I had to grab a couple rooms for my client at the Hilton Garden Inn on Carnegie.   Both the Browns and Guardians were home.  The HGI rooms were $550/night.   The following Monday they were probably $119.     Everything else in town was sold out or just had 1-2 rooms left.  

On 9/28/2023 at 10:30 AM, KJP said:

 

Not anymore. The teams are turning them into year-round development sites with lots of corporate branding and sports lifestyle stuff. Look at what the Cowboys and the Vikings have done. 

Exactly my point.   Cleveland should see this economic opportunity as it is putting up way more than Berea to be a part of the team's home in Cleveland.   

Shall we get back to Cleveland Browns Stadium?

On 9/29/2023 at 3:29 PM, TBideon said:

Ten Fortune 500 companies, the desirability of Carnegie Mellon and Pitts (and perhaps some other colleges/universities of which I'm unfamliar), the landlocked nature of the city, wealthy neigborhoods like Shady Side and Squirrel Hill, demographics (about 70% white), poverty (20%)... it all adds up to Pittsburgh being an affordable Boston where things get done.

It's statements like thos. Specifically "(about 70% white)" that make me laugh when people say we are in a post-racial society, or there is no racism in America.

 

Given this (Cleveland), is considered the Midwest, this lack of diversity may be considered a good thing. But this lack of diversity(immigration, mixed neighborhoods), is also why we continue to sink in population listing. 

Somehow we even got screwed in ESPNs AI “reimagined” stadiums,  basically takes our current stadium and moves it to an island? 

Edited October 27, 20231 yr by BoomerangCleRes

I like it. Cmon Bibb and Haslam let’s make this happen! 😄

1 hour ago, Silent Matt said:

I like it. Cmon Bibb and Haslam let’s make this happen! 😄

and revive the island airport plan for burke, and make the current land a park.   🙃

At least, unlike the Bengals, they didn’t relocate us to Zhangjiajie National Park in China. 

I like the new towers!