February 20, 20241 yr 4 minutes ago, Foraker said: Let's say that the Browns decide to build a domed stadium, but not at the current site but within the city of Cleveland. Best options? I'm guessing that they'll want some developable land around it, and they'll need lots of room for parking and tailgating, plus good transit access and not too far from the existing downtown core and its restaurants and hotels. What are the options? @Foraker this has been discussed exhaustively up thread over the past few weeks.
February 22, 20241 yr https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/nba/thunder/2023/12/12/okc-thunder-nba-david-holt-oklahoma-city-new-arena-vote/71902024007/ “Voters approved a six-year penny sales tax that will foot at least $850 million of the bill. Thunder ownership, led by chairman Clay Bennett, will contribute $50 million — about 5.5% of the expected cost.” Atleast the Haslams are offering a 50/50 split.
February 22, 20241 yr 18 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/nba/thunder/2023/12/12/okc-thunder-nba-david-holt-oklahoma-city-new-arena-vote/71902024007/ “Voters approved a six-year penny sales tax that will foot at least $850 million of the bill. Thunder ownership, led by chairman Clay Bennett, will contribute $50 million — about 5.5% of the expected cost.” Atleast the Haslams are offering a 50/50 split. That’s OKC’s only Pro sports franchise I believe. But that’s ridiculous.
February 22, 20241 yr 12 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/nba/thunder/2023/12/12/okc-thunder-nba-david-holt-oklahoma-city-new-arena-vote/71902024007/ “Voters approved a six-year penny sales tax that will foot at least $850 million of the bill. Thunder ownership, led by chairman Clay Bennett, will contribute $50 million — about 5.5% of the expected cost.” Atleast the Haslams are offering a 50/50 split. I'm fine with that because the people got to vote. It's when we don't have a say where our tax dollars go and a few higher ups in the city get to decide who gets free money. It would be nice if any decision here on the stadium that involves city funds would need to be approved by the taxholders. Not sure if they would do that though. Funny thought would be it would be hilarious if they put it to a vote but only people that voted yes would have their taxes raised accordingly to fund the stadium. I bet you'd get a lot more no's in that Oklahoma City election 😆
February 22, 20241 yr 11 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said: I'm fine with that because the people got to vote. It's when we don't have a say where our tax dollars go and a few higher ups in the city get to decide who gets free money. It would be nice if any decision here on the stadium that involves city funds would need to be approved by the taxholders. Not sure if they would do that though. Funny thought would be it would be hilarious if they put it to a vote but only people that voted yes would have their taxes raised accordingly to fund the stadium. I bet you'd get a lot more no's in that Oklahoma City election 😆 I think in OKC's situation it passed in a landslide because it was do or die. If it didn't pass, the Thunder were moving. I have a feeling if it were put to a vote here, it would fail (I would vote yes). Of course the circumstances here are much different than the OKC situation Edited February 22, 20241 yr by GREGinPARMA
February 22, 20241 yr Interesting discussion on WTAM this morning with Nick Castele of www.signalcleveland.org about the Browns stadium. Nick thinks the city is looking capping their contribution at $300m, and how to pay for that is not yet determined. I didn't quite get all of the conversation but it sounds like the state changed the law and we might not be able to use sin taxes to build a new stadium -- so some lobbying for state law changes also might be required. I assume the city expects the county and state to contribute something as well. Nick also thinks the stadium will be in Cleveland because no other city in the region can make that kind of contribution. So it will be downtown or near downtown, either on the lakefront or another site TBD, but within the city of Cleveland. They also mentioned that if the stadium is not on the lakefront, it gets a lot harder to justify building the land bridge. After hearing the discussion, I found this article. https://signalcleveland.org/browns-pitched-cleveland-city-council-on-1-billion-stadium-renovation-members-say/
February 22, 20241 yr 12 minutes ago, Foraker said: Interesting discussion on WTAM this morning with Nick Castele of www.signalcleveland.org about the Browns stadium. Nick thinks the city is looking capping their contribution at $300m, and how to pay for that is not yet determined. I didn't quite get all of the conversation but it sounds like the state changed the law and we might not be able to use sin taxes to build a new stadium -- so some lobbying for state law changes also might be required. I assume the city expects the county and state to contribute something as well. Nick also thinks the stadium will be in Cleveland because no other city in the region can make that kind of contribution. So it will be downtown or near downtown, either on the lakefront or another site TBD, but within the city of Cleveland. They also mentioned that if the stadium is not on the lakefront, it gets a lot harder to justify building the land bridge. After hearing the discussion, I found this article. https://signalcleveland.org/browns-pitched-cleveland-city-council-on-1-billion-stadium-renovation-members-say/ Thanks for the info. Castele is great and this sounds realistic imo. A new large site near downtown benefits both Haslam and the city. City keeps the team and ~700k visitors and Haslam can have control, build related development, and get $300mil more. It seems plenty of people feel that the lakefront stadium blocks development. I agree it’s not ideal site with the stadium but moving it (and a $1b investment) essentially makes for a $230m land bridge to nothing. I’m afraid any lakefront development (including the park space) is farther in the future than any city officials will admit, either way.
February 22, 20241 yr 41 minutes ago, Foraker said: Interesting discussion on WTAM this morning with Nick Castele of www.signalcleveland.org about the Browns stadium. Nick thinks the city is looking capping their contribution at $300m, and how to pay for that is not yet determined. I didn't quite get all of the conversation but it sounds like the state changed the law and we might not be able to use sin taxes to build a new stadium -- so some lobbying for state law changes also might be required. I assume the city expects the county and state to contribute something as well. Nick also thinks the stadium will be in Cleveland because no other city in the region can make that kind of contribution. So it will be downtown or near downtown, either on the lakefront or another site TBD, but within the city of Cleveland. They also mentioned that if the stadium is not on the lakefront, it gets a lot harder to justify building the land bridge. After hearing the discussion, I found this article. https://signalcleveland.org/browns-pitched-cleveland-city-council-on-1-billion-stadium-renovation-members-say/ The sin tax is a county-wide tax not a city tax. I doubt the city itself is offering $300 million.
February 22, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, CLEmuppet said: It seems plenty of people feel that the lakefront stadium blocks development. I agree it’s not ideal site with the stadium but moving it (and a $1b investment) essentially makes for a $230m land bridge to nothing. I’m afraid any lakefront development (including the park space) is farther in the future than any city officials will admit, either way. Depends on what replaces the stadium. If it's something with density or otherwise gets used 365 days a year, it could generate more foot traffic over a full year than a 67,431-seats football stadium which can generate at most 670,000 or so visits in a year. Pre-expansion, the Rock Hall attracts that many visitors. The science center adds another 300,000. If we build a multimodal transportation center, plus 1,000 apartments with a bunch of restaurants and shops where the stadium now stands, that right there could easily surpass the stadium's annual visitors. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 20241 yr ^ also, most people that go into the stadium for an event just freakin go in and leave afterward, in contrast with what would be an attractive mixed/residential area where people would live, work and linger.
February 22, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Foraker said: They also mentioned that if the stadium is not on the lakefront, it gets a lot harder to justify building the land bridge. After hearing the discussion, I found this article. https://signalcleveland.org/browns-pitched-cleveland-city-council-on-1-billion-stadium-renovation-members-say/ This is what I had been afraid of. Appears a strong argument that keeping the Stadium where it is at least gives immediate investment into the Lakefront plan.
February 22, 20241 yr ^^ Another tourist attraction would be nice. Several years ago, there was a group planning to build a world-class aquarium on the lakefront. Apparently, those plans ended when Jacobs converted the powerhouse into a little aquarium. https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2010/01/another_developer_floats_a_cle.html
February 22, 20241 yr I’m certainly not entirely opposed to another attraction on the lakefront but I do think that most “younger” people need shopping (of some sort) and dining to add to their experience. Football might bring someone to the lakefront 10 times a year - but a museum or a Science Center will not. I like Ken’s reasoning above that 1000 apartments and some places to dine might benefit the land bridge and lakefront traffic more than a stadium. And what an absolutely cool neighborhood it could ultimately become. I still see the possible move off the lakefront as the best scenario for the city of Cleveland to activate its lakefront - and outdoor recreational- based activities are not enough in our climate.
February 22, 20241 yr 16 minutes ago, CleveFan said: I still see the possible move off the lakefront as the best scenario for the city of Cleveland to activate its lakefront - and outdoor recreational- based activities are not enough in our climate. I think each one of us can imagine best scenarios. These plans have been dreams for long time! The possibilities are endless but the realities are, unfortunately, somewhat opposite. I don't much care for Haslam, but removing a billionaire from the Lakefront development equation probably hurts a lot more than it helps.
February 23, 20241 yr If the stadium were to be relocated (in Cleveland or otherwise) has anyone discussed the remediation efforts needed to make sure a lakefront residential development does not turn into a similar situation like what happened in Garfield at Transportation Blvd?
February 25, 20241 yr Continuation of the debate about public funds use for Stadiums. Here's a decent Cleveland.com piece about potential alternative uses for the money. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/02/what-could-cleveland-do-with-browns-stadium-funding-other-than-upgrade-a-stadium.html Here's it being discussed on Reddit.
February 28, 20241 yr The Chiefs in their peak era of multiple superbowls want 500m public money to keep a suburban stadium and flatten the Royals stadium for more parking - another 2,000 parking spaces - there is already 20k on site and no viable public transit. This is a prime example of why when the time comes to hand over public money to the Browns, and it will, we absolutely have to get some return on investment. That is absolutely horrendous. I don't know if anyone has ever been to Arrowhead or Kauffman stadium, it might be in the worst area in America for major league sports. Dump is being kind. Edited February 28, 20241 yr by snakebite
February 28, 20241 yr https://www.kctv5.com/2024/02/28/chiefs-unveil-renderings-800-million-renovation-arrowhead-stadium/ "The Chiefs also considered a mixed-use development around Arrowhead, where there are few restaurants, hotels and entertainment options. But studies found that such an investment would not provide a positive financial return." Jimmy and Dee must be relying on those same studies. They've owned the Browns for 12 years, and it looks the same except that it's harder to access the stadium now. And don't be taking credit for the one apartment building and one restaurant on 9th, Haslams. "Hunt says the renovations are projected to cost $800 million, with the Hunt family contributing $300 million of the cost. Hunt says his family will cover “any cost overruns,” capping the state and taxpayers’ contributions to the renovation project." Then for f's sake there better be an iron clad, profit-sharing clause so the city sees direct ROI, not some vague "the hotels, restaurants, bartenders, liquor stores, parking lot owners, meter maids, strip clubs, prostitutes and drug dealers have a couple good days" bulls**t. Or else they and the Browns can play on Taylor Swift's plane or fleece some other city. Edited February 28, 20241 yr by TBideon
February 28, 20241 yr 17 minutes ago, TBideon said: https://www.kctv5.com/2024/02/28/chiefs-unveil-renderings-800-million-renovation-arrowhead-stadium/ "The Chiefs also considered a mixed-use development around Arrowhead, where there are few restaurants, hotels and entertainment options. But studies found that such an investment would not provide a positive financial return." Jimmy and Dee must be relying on those same studies. They've owned the Browns for 12 years, and it looks the same except that it's harder to access the stadium now. And don't be taking credit for the one apartment building and one restaurant on 9th, Haslams. "Hunt says the renovations are projected to cost $800 million, with the Hunt family contributing $300 million of the cost. Hunt says his family will cover “any cost overruns,” capping the state and taxpayers’ contributions to the renovation project." Then for f's sake there better be a iron clad, profit-sharing clause so the city sees direct ROI, not some vague "the hotels, restaurants, bartenders, liquor stores, parking lot owners, meter maids, strip clubs, prostitutes and drug dealers have a couple good days" bulls**t. Or else they and the Browns can play on Taylor Swift's plane or fleece some other city. The KC location is also not in the city and not a desirable area to stay in a hotel or live at.
February 28, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, WindyBuckeye said: The KC location is also not in the city and not a desirable area to stay in a hotel or live at. I live here just now unfortunately (might be the most car centric major city in America) through circumstance and Truman Sports Complex might well be in the s**ttest part of town. There an abandoned hotel and a burnt out Denny's across the street the other side of i70. Blue Ridge Cutoff the main road next to the stadium isn't even paved and people have been hit by vehicles on several occasions. Amenities wise theres a Casey's gas station and a Taco Bell across the street and another run down hotel. The Hunts are very frugal with money despite being billionaires and got s**t on regarding poor facilities and player treatment in the NFLPA survey that came out today. The Haslams are like philanthropists compared to them. They would never build what the Haslams are doing with Astor Park in Columbus let alone what the likes of Titans or Jaguars are planning with NFL stadiums in urban areas. Cleveland feels like London or New York to me in hindsight since coming here. We don't want to be Kansas City, believe me.
February 29, 20241 yr 16 hours ago, snakebite said: I live here just now unfortunately (might be the most car centric major city in America) through circumstance and Truman Sports Complex might well be in the s**ttest part of town. There an abandoned hotel and a burnt out Denny's across the street the other side of i70. Blue Ridge Cutoff the main road next to the stadium isn't even paved and people have been hit by vehicles on several occasions. Amenities wise theres a Casey's gas station and a Taco Bell across the street and another run down hotel. The Hunts are very frugal with money despite being billionaires and got s**t on regarding poor facilities and player treatment in the NFLPA survey that came out today. The Haslams are like philanthropists compared to them. They would never build what the Haslams are doing with Astor Park in Columbus let alone what the likes of Titans or Jaguars are planning with NFL stadiums in urban areas. Cleveland feels like London or New York to me in hindsight since coming here. We don't want to be Kansas City, believe me. Ya Im actually a die hard Chiefs fan and have been to many games there. Although I love the tailgating experience and going to the game, the rest is just downright awful.
March 1, 20241 yr Had a nice shot of the Cleveland Processing & Distribution Center right before landing today. In case @KJP needs it for a future article 😉 or if anyone wants to do a stadium mockup, have at it! 👍
March 1, 20241 yr Awesome view! Thanks!! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 25, 20241 yr Why shouldn't The Haslam's show us plans for each option and let the citizens weigh in on which they prefer.
March 25, 20241 yr Just now, dave2017 said: Why shouldn't The Haslam's show us plans for each option and let the citizens weigh in on which they prefer. I'd say it's mostly because they don't care what you or I think.
March 25, 20241 yr Would love to see a dome but I think it's important to the vibrancy, and probably economic health, of downtown that the stadium is located there. Hopefully, they're considering some type of structure to help mitigate the elements.
March 25, 20241 yr Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam say they’re exploring a domed stadium in Brook Park ‘that could transform our area’ https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2024/03/browns-owners-jimmy-and-dee-haslam-say-theyre-exploring-a-domed-stadium-in-brook-park-that-could-transform-our-area.html I can’t read this so I don’t know what the ins and outs are. I’m personally not in favor of spending huge amounts of tax money on a stadium in Brook Park. At least downtown you can make a loose connection that this helps the region prosper by strengthening the core. But building in Brook Park really makes it all about fun times for football fans.
March 26, 20241 yr But a cle.com article wasn't planted by the Browns to influence negotiations with the city of Cleveland? Got it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20241 yr https://www.cleveland.com/letters/2024/03/why-not-build-new-browns-stadium-on-still-vacant-land-once-offered-art-modell.html By Other Voices In regards to Browns Stadium (“Build a domed Browns Stadium — and build it away from the lake,” March 17), no one has brought up the original idea Cleveland and Cuyahoga County officials proposed to Art Modell in the late ‘80s. When the Gateway project was first conceived, they included Modell to be in on the project. He said they didn’t - that’s a story for another day. Skip Ad Officials offered Modell the plot of land diagonally southwest from Progressive Field just on the other side of the Innerbelt at the Ontario Street exit. He refused and the rest is history, but the land is still there, vacant and undeveloped, and still owned by Cleveland. Currently, part of it is used for Progressive Field employees and vendor parking on game days. It seems to me this would be the perfect location to showcase a beautiful new stadium. Imagine both stadiums illuminated at night and people driving through the Innerbelt right in between the two! This keeps the Browns in downtown Cleveland where they belong and develops a completely empty and void section of the city. I would hope this option is being discussed between the Haslams and city and county officials. Joseph Dylyn, North Olmsted
March 26, 20241 yr “It’s hard to get into, hard to get out of, we have no parking. I think that was really something important for us, as how to solve those issues. And when you start thinking about what Cleveland can be and what the vision for this city is, I think we underestimate what a great place it is. And I think there’s an opportunity here to perhaps build a dome stadium that can transform our area. That’s something exciting to think about. We’re looking at both options. Not one option is above the other. But I do think that Cleveland deserves to be thought of as this evolving, forward-thinking, creative city as opposed to not thinking big.” -Dee Haslem so they want parking revenue? Otherwise I don’t think anyone complains about parking for the game
March 26, 20241 yr Read the whole thing, amazing how many times parking is brought up, guessing there’s serious revenue in that. The whole gist they’re trying to give off to Ken’s point is that they’re moving from the lakefront. Also for anyone that couldn’t read it they said they’ll have a final decision in the next 1-2 years
March 26, 20241 yr I'm still skeptical that the ONLY two options are renovating the current stadium or a dome in Brook Park. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I remain optimistic that a dome in Cleveland Proper option surfaces, even if the PD article says otherwise.
March 26, 20241 yr it's funny that even Jimmy realizes that he's too slimy to to discuss sentimental topics and issues of morality. He has to wheel Dee out as a credible face whenever the organization needs to pretend like it cares about anything except itself.
March 26, 20241 yr 4 minutes ago, dave2017 said: Did they give a reason a dome is not possible at the lakefront site? They did not directly I guess you can put two and two together and determine that they only believe spending over a billion makes sense only if they can have all the parking revenue “They seemed optimistic they could finance a new $2 billion-plus facility, and that it would help pay for itself with all the events and parking.” Followed by.. “I mean, this is not just a lipstick job. This is a major, the stadium, you will not recognize Cleveland Browns Stadium if you saw what we’re talking about doing. It’s a billion dollar project. That’s a lot of money. So it’ll be significantly different, significantly different.”
March 26, 20241 yr They probably plan on capitalizing on airport parking $$$ for the other 356 days it’s not being used. Truly transformative 🙄
March 26, 20241 yr I would like to know how comparable domed stadiums are used throughout the year to justify the idea it is used continuously during that time. I get why a domed stadium could be needed for rain or winter weather but a dome isn't needed for most of spring/summer/fall seasons. All this Brook Park talk is a money grab by The Haslams' for their own personal gain
March 26, 20241 yr Well a dome sure would be transformative for Brookpark. It’s a decision that may please the suburban based, drive-to-the-game Browns fans but wouldn’t do much for promoting the city. What a terrible location for bigger national events- Brookpark OH vs all the other regional downtown domes. Heck, even for all the visiting NFL fans it’d be a bummer.
March 26, 20241 yr Not sure I have seen this rendering before Edited March 26, 20241 yr by freethink Edit
March 26, 20241 yr 8 hours ago, freethink said: Not sure I have seen this rendering before I saw that yesterday, too. Clearly someone used AI for a quick and dirty illustration (likely the original poster and not the city or the Haslams). You can tell from things like the reflecting pool behind City Hall and the conversion of the Cuyahoga County Courthouse into a parking garage on stilts ... not to mention the Hilton missing. 😂 Edited March 26, 20241 yr by Paul in Cleveland
March 26, 20241 yr 11 hours ago, dave2017 said: Did they give a reason a dome is not possible at the lakefront site? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it has been stated that because the current stadium is built on a landfill, there is no way that site could support the additional weight of a dome. Even if the foundation would support it, the stadium itself would basically need to be completely rebuilt to support a roof.
March 26, 20241 yr I subscribe to text alerts from Cleveland.com to see what stories they are interested. Is this guy serious? I don’t want to steer the conversation away but come on.
March 26, 20241 yr ^ Well that is a question l'm sure many of us wonder about. If the stadium is built outside the city of Clevland how much (if any) money does Cleveland contribute? Also it seems the whole location decision revolves around parking REVENUE (not parking). Can't say l blame them as other owners are getting that (free) money. My complaint is not with the owners getting that cash but with moving the team out of downtown. If building downtown means they don't get the parking revenue because they don't own the surrounding land and THAT'S a deal breaker then all of us downtown proponents are screwed.
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