There could be some demand for a hotel or maybe some offices at this site, but I think all the talk of a "stadium village" is just hot air- Haslam wants the parking, that's all.  He might be dumb enough to believe it, but I don't.

17 minutes ago, jbdad2 said:

Haslam's money = Haslam's decision...I'm totally good with them spending their money in Brook Park.   Let the city, county and state channel taxpayer dollars to the landbridge and economic growth initiatives.

I agree. But, realistically, bizarro worldly, nothing mobilizes a region like raising hundreds of millions for a billionaire.

 

Presuming the Brookpark deal is locked - which seems doubtful, especially the Jimmy/Dee fronting costs (and maintenance/upkeep?)- it's not like Cleveland/Cuyahoga are raising hundreds of millions any time soon for those investments. An extended sin tax to fund a bridge or infrastructure is a much harder sell than gifting the grifters.

 

Edited April 9, 20241 yr by TBideon

If you were downtown for the Women's Final Four you saw tons of street activity and filled restraunts and stores. The fan experience was at the convention center, and everything was walkable from a ton of hotels. A stadium in Brookpark means the fan experience in the IX Center, people eating at the restaunts by the stadium instead of driving back downtown, and an overall loss for the region. I don't know how anyone who cares about Cleveland would want/be OK with this plan.

I would imagine there is some public money involved here from infrastructure improvements to roadways, interchanges, etc to coinciding with impending airport improvements. The airport needs some good hotels. I think CMH has four on property. PIT has a Hyatt. Also, im assuming parking could be coupled with airport.  A couple of parking garages would work. Again, even cities like Albany, Louisville, etc have those and CLE is the busiest of our peer cities.  While a ballpark village is likely hot air, it might be more temperate than you think. Not that many years ago, the thought of people living downtown was hot air

I've never seen any comparable activity on Sunday home games when the Browns play. Most Browns fan experiences tend to start and stop in the parking lots, with some nominal benefits for downtown hotels and restaurants.

 

A new stadium wouldn't change that, but it would saddle taxpayers with a billion dollar debt for another 30 years. The city just doesn't get enough ROI to warrant that kind of debt.

 

 

Edited April 9, 20241 yr by TBideon

15 minutes ago, TBideon said:

I've never seen any comparable activity on Sunday home games when the Browns play. Most Browns fan experiences tend to start and stop in the parking lots, with some nominal benefits for downtown hotels and restaurants.

 

A new stadium wouldn't change that, but it would saddle taxpayers with a billion dollar debt for another 30 years. The city just doesn't get enough ROI to warrant that kind of debt.

 

 

I was mainly talking about special events: Men's Final Four, College Football Bowl Game, Superbowl etc.

5 minutes ago, MikeyB440 said:

I was mainly talking about special events: Men's Final Four, College Football Bowl Game, Superbowl etc.

Events like those are once in a blue moon, assuming they would even come to Cleveland, especially the last two.

 

Edited April 9, 20241 yr by LibertyBlvd

41 minutes ago, MikeyB440 said:

I was mainly talking about special events: Men's Final Four, College Football Bowl Game, Superbowl etc.

Conversely theres bidding every year  of these large events obviously year in advance but regardless they gotta go somewhere 

 

I think I heard we have the men’s tournament here in a couple years not a final four but it’s somethin 

1 hour ago, MikeyB440 said:

If you were downtown for the Women's Final Four you saw tons of street activity and filled restraunts and stores. The fan experience was at the convention center, and everything was walkable from a ton of hotels. A stadium in Brookpark means the fan experience in the IX Center, people eating at the restaunts by the stadium instead of driving back downtown, and an overall loss for the region. I don't know how anyone who cares about Cleveland would want/be OK with this plan.

Then the City of Cleveland has to make a lakefront dome stadium work for the owners and squeeze the best deal out it for the city.

1 hour ago, MikeyB440 said:

If you were downtown for the Women's Final Four you saw tons of street activity and filled restraunts and stores. The fan experience was at the convention center, and everything was walkable from a ton of hotels. A stadium in Brookpark means the fan experience in the IX Center, people eating at the restaunts by the stadium instead of driving back downtown, and an overall loss for the region. I don't know how anyone who cares about Cleveland would want/be OK with this plan.

Yeah it was great couple that with the science center hosting NASA on the front lawn and street, downtown was activated all the way to the lake 

Heard a great point on the radio. Progressive Field and RMFH have at least 120 dates a year with just basketball and baseball games. Yet, after 30 years, there has been very few amenities that have opened in close proximity. So, why would one expect a village to work in Brookpark with only 9-10 games a year and with many of those in cold weather?

With the right vision and skill, that area could be a destination with the stadium as an anchor tenant. Any area could given the right leadership. 

 

But I certainly wouldn't give Jimmy and Dee the benefit of the doubt as they have zero credibility. They'll make enough via the team and parking alone without having to design and develop a true ballpark village/entertainment village. 

14 minutes ago, dski44 said:

Heard a great point on the radio. Progressive Field and RMFH have at least 120 dates a year with just basketball and baseball games. Yet, after 30 years, there has been very few amenities that have opened in close proximity. So, why would one expect a village to work in Brookpark with only 9-10 games a year and with many of those in cold weather?

But they have opened....look at new housing on Euclid for one. East 4th for another. Granted, its not connected, but it is close enough

26 minutes ago, dski44 said:

 So, why would one expect a village to work in Brookpark with only 9-10 games a year and with many of those in cold weather?

It won't.   It's a suburban SIM city mentality.   But the same guys on 92.3 the fan saying "they should make it like Crocker Park" are the same guys that only go to Crocker Park once a year and then complain about it.   

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, dski44 said:

Heard a great point on the radio. Progressive Field and RMFH have at least 120 dates a year with just basketball and baseball games. Yet, after 30 years, there has been very few amenities that have opened in close proximity. So, why would one expect a village to work in Brookpark with only 9-10 games a year and with many of those in cold weather?

 

Only in the last couple of years have the owners of the Cavs and Guardians got directly involved in real estate around the Gateway venues (which they do not own). And the Dolans have gotten involved in acquiring real estate only because a new minority owner (soon-to-be majority owner) want to be involved.

 

The Haslams are involved in real estate in a big way, both in Columbus and in Berea. And, BTW, the city of Columbus didn't pay anything for the new crew stadium, although the city did make a direct contribution to repurpose the old Crew stadium. 

I still don't understand the relationship and synergy or lack thereof between the Berea plans and the Brookpark acquisition, unless Brookpark is only the stadium plus parking, maybe with a shuttle to the Berea development, should that arise.  These two "developments" are only 5-10 minutes apart by car.  Wah! Someone help me.

My guess based on scant info is that the Berea development is going to be a place that might, in addition to Haslam Sports/Browns offices, host Browns training/practices as well as host youth sports including training plus high school/college playoffs and championships in football, soccer, lacrosse etc. There may also be wellness programs and a few restaurants and a hotel for these visitors.

 

While I thought the NFL/Browns-related retailers would be at Berea, now I'm not so sure.

We all should calm down a sec… it’s the Mayor’s administration that is negotiating with Haslem, not City Council (hence why the Modell law was even brought up… that’s politics. City Council members have probably been getting questions from their constituents just as the Mayor’s office has, and decided to show they were doing “something” about the Browns staying on the lakefront). 

 

Edited April 10, 20241 yr by Oldmanladyluck

14 hours ago, KJP said:

My guess based on scant info is that the Berea development is going to be a place that might, in addition to Haslam Sports/Browns offices, host Browns training/practices as well as host youth sports including training plus high school/college playoffs and championships in football, soccer, lacrosse etc. There may also be wellness programs and a few restaurants and a hotel for these visitors.

 

While I thought the NFL/Browns-related retailers would be at Berea, now I'm not so sure.

So something like a smaller version of Spire? I could actually see that doing fairly well with all of the more upper middle class families on the Westside. 

24 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

So something like a smaller version of Spire? I could actually see that doing fairly well with all of the more upper middle class families on the Westside. 

 

Could be. My son plays soccer for Spire and Lakewood United FC and we're always having schedule conflicts at facilities for practices and games. It's tough to find space.

2 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

So something like a smaller version of Spire? I could actually see that doing fairly well with all of the more upper middle class families on the Westside. 

Imagine such a place downtown and central to the entire region.   Stadium with Browns offices, practice facilities and a youth sports complex all wrapped up into one.  

13 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Imagine such a place downtown and central to the entire region.   Stadium with Browns offices, practice facilities and a youth sports complex all wrapped up into one.  

Would take some business away from the Cedar Point Sports Center which is the Mecca of that sort of thing for youths in the region 

23 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Imagine such a place downtown and central to the entire region.   Stadium with Browns offices, practice facilities and a youth sports complex all wrapped up into one.  

And with CMSD consolidating a lot of athletic fields and facilities, this could house most of our high school sports as well. 

There's a handful of interesting quotes in here, I've only picked out a few. The consensus, with one exception, seems to be that a mixed use development in Brook Park is not guaranteed to be successful and even when comparing to revenues of other mixed use stadium developments in Atlanta or LA it would take years to recoup those costs. The article makes it clear that the Cleveland market is not the ATL/LA market so the comparison isn't perfect... 

 

The suggestion was this development would be in direct competition with other suburban lifestyle centers like Crocker or Strongsville, and that's without taking into account whatever Jimbo has planned for Berea. There was no mention that the move would hurt Downtown, though it didn't seem that question was raised. Again the comparison was made to Gilbert's real estate investments downtown. 

 

The Haslams want a $2 billion Browns stadium. Would a Brook Park development make it possible?

Apr. 13, 2024

By Sean McDonnell, cleveland.com

 

Mixed-use developments have a ton of upside, said Matt Kittle, a Cleveland native who’s helped develop the land around SoFi Stadium near Los Angeles. But he said the payback period on these kinds of investments is 20 years, if not longer.

 

“This isn’t like an overnight type of thing,” Kittle said, noting that the 300-acre Hollywood Park development is 40% built seven years after breaking ground.

 

...

 

J.C. Bradbury, an economics professor at Kennesaw State University who has watched the Braves development closely, said the numbers show that the upside of these mixed-use developments is not obvious.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/04/the-haslams-want-a-2-billion-browns-stadium-would-a-brook-park-development-make-it-possible.html

"Jimmy and Dee Haslam say a domed stadium could transform the Cleveland area..."

 

I swear I read that as "doomed" and did a double take.

I was trying to think of what could draw many people, not be too large, not be another Pinecrest/Crocker Park, and not be devalued due to the industrial nature of the surroundings (residential).  It occured to me that Cleveland has been stripped of its amusememt and water parks, and I love water parks, so, there you go Jimmy and Dee.  Combine the indoor outdoor water park with challenging miniature golf, batting simulators, an entertainmemt stage, and other sports related amusements.  Add a hotel with a coordinated theme.

 

On a related note, I wonder if more land could be captured by modifying the Engle-Snow-CSX mess of an intersection.

Those grifters won't be building s**t even if they move to Brookpark. You can plug and chug their names for the article below. Reinsdorf hasn't developed anything along the sea of space surrounding Sox (and Bulls) and will not should the Sox move a few miles north. Decades of parking lots for all three teams, decades of opportunities to develop, and nothing happens. 

 

Jimmy and Dee would make a fortune with the parking lots and NFL money; they have no need to develop any kind of ballpark village or entertainment district, which would likely lose money. I mean, what's their incentive?

 

https://southsideweekly.com/stadium-shenanigans-chicago-white-sox-reinsdorf-billions-public-dollars-new-stadium/

 

I'll eat a pinecone if I'm wrong.

7 hours ago, TBideon said:

"Jimmy and Dee Haslam say a domed stadium could transform the Cleveland area..."

 

Read as:

"Could transform the Cleveland area... into a place that better serves their insatiable desires, yet delivers a product that serves Cleveland less."

• Meanwhile, the Haslams can reach their hands beyond The City into the deeper pockets of Cuyahoga residents & /taxpayers.
• The transformation will be complete when our regional NFL attraction is re-conceived as a suburban gated community for pro sports"
• I agree that this will indeed be transformational.
• Also, good luck catching your CLE flight in on time on game days.

Edited April 13, 20241 yr by ExPatClevGuy

7 hours ago, Luke_S said:

There's a handful of interesting quotes in here, I've only picked out a few. The consensus, with one exception, seems to be that a mixed use development in Brook Park is not guaranteed to be successful and even when comparing to revenues of other mixed use stadium developments in Atlanta or LA it would take years to recoup those costs. The article makes it clear that the Cleveland market is not the ATL/LA market so the comparison isn't perfect... 

 

The suggestion was this development would be in direct competition with other suburban lifestyle centers like Crocker or Strongsville, and that's without taking into account whatever Jimbo has planned for Berea. There was no mention that the move would hurt Downtown, though it didn't seem that question was raised. Again the comparison was made to Gilbert's real estate investments downtown. 

 

The Haslams want a $2 billion Browns stadium. Would a Brook Park development make it possible?

Apr. 13, 2024

By Sean McDonnell, cleveland.com

 

Mixed-use developments have a ton of upside, said Matt Kittle, a Cleveland native who’s helped develop the land around SoFi Stadium near Los Angeles. But he said the payback period on these kinds of investments is 20 years, if not longer.

 

“This isn’t like an overnight type of thing,” Kittle said, noting that the 300-acre Hollywood Park development is 40% built seven years after breaking ground.

 

...

 

J.C. Bradbury, an economics professor at Kennesaw State University who has watched the Braves development closely, said the numbers show that the upside of these mixed-use developments is not obvious.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/04/the-haslams-want-a-2-billion-browns-stadium-would-a-brook-park-development-make-it-possible.html

20 years? At that point they'll be looking to build another stadium.

On 4/8/2024 at 9:15 AM, Cleburger said:

A look at the Lucas Oil Stadium calendar--8 events between now and 2029 (not counting Colts).  

 

It helps that Indy is home base for the NCAA and also the state capitol.   

 

Also--until ALL stadiums are domes, it doesn't' necessary help get on concert routings.   Domed stadiums just get the late spring and  fall dates.  The summer is filled with open-air stadiums.  

 

 

There are 16 events in the next month and a half??

500 million towards a $2 billion development that won't see a payoff for another 20 years? Pass. Put that money towards creating a vibrant year round world renowned public area that will attract visitors from all over. 

17 minutes ago, yanni_gogolak said:

 

There are 16 events in the next month and a half??

 

A lot of these events are using rooms in the convention center/stadium, upthread there's a breakdown of all the spaces that are included as part of the stadium, a lot are glorified conference rooms. The browns also host events in the rooms in the stadium throughout the year. I don't think the Avon High School Class of 20xx is using the playing field/domed portion.

 

If you go to Lucas Oil Stadium events site here's what's listed:

 

George Strait, Chris Stapleton, Little Big Town (May)

US Olympic Team Trials (June)

P!NK (October)

Taylor (November)

Big Ten Championship (December)

NCAA Midwest Regionals (March '25)

2026/2029 NCAA Final Four

 

^Stadium tours! Walk around and hear a guy tell you how many gallons of water they use during a football game. See the storage room where they keep the nacho helmets. Check out the laundry facilities!

 

Having looked at other stadium villages, I can't wait for a Bar Louie, a BW3, a Red Robin, and a knockoff Sbarro.

It will be the pride of the near west side!

16 hours ago, yanni_gogolak said:

 

There are 16 events in the next month and a half??

I don't know where you're pulling this from, but it's not accurate.   Taylor Swift wasn't there on April 25--she is there three nights in November:  https://www.lucasoilstadium.com/events-tickets/

 

It also looks as though it's pulling convention center events.  For instance Brick Fest Live is actually in Exhibit Halls D & E of the convention center:  https://www.icclos.com/event/brick-fest-live-2/

 

 

9 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I don't know where you're pulling this from, but it's not accurate.   Taylor Swift wasn't there on April 25--she is there three nights in November:  https://www.lucasoilstadium.com/events-tickets/

 

It also looks as though it's pulling convention center events.  For instance Brick Fest Live is actually in Exhibit Halls D & E of the convention center:  https://www.icclos.com/event/brick-fest-live-2/

 

 

 

I used Google.
Thanks for researching it more though....😂

I took off from Hopkins about an hour ago … thought I’d snap some pics in case KJP or anyone wants them for a future article, renderings, etc. 😀👍🛫

Thanks @Paul in Cleveland! Did your plane take off on one of the SW-NE runways. If so, that's a sharp turn right after take off! If it was the east-west runway, it shows the outbound path is nowhere near the stadium site. But it looks unlikely that you were on the east-west runway considering how far north of Brookpark Road your plane was. 

On 4/15/2024 at 5:09 PM, MyPhoneDead said:

500 million towards a $2 billion development that won't see a payoff for another 20 years? Pass. Put that money towards creating a vibrant year round world renowned public area that will attract visitors from all over. 

Yes, a year round attraction and park can be created and created for far less with a broader impact.

 

For an example, the St. Louis arch was built for $13m in 1965, which in today's cost would be about $130m. It attracts about 2m people a year. A structure with the same visual impact would be far better suited the area than a dome. Plus, after nearly 50 years in existence, I have never heard anyone say the arch needs to be replaced with a new contemporary structure, possibly moved to the suburbs.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Thanks @Paul in Cleveland! Did your plane take off on one of the SW-NE runways. If so, that's a sharp turn right after take off! If it was the east-west runway, it shows the outbound path is nowhere near the stadium site. But it looks unlikely that you were on the east-west runway considering how far north of Brookpark Road your plane was. 

Taking off on 6R frequently involves a sharp right turn. 

Edited April 16, 20241 yr by B767PILOT

As a taxpayer, I don't think anyone should be paying for private corps such as football, soccer, etc. teams. Even convention centers and the like should be privately funded entirely. I understand easing up on their property taxes or the like because they are an economic pull, but outright paying for them is absurd.

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Thanks @Paul in Cleveland! Did your plane take off on one of the SW-NE runways. If so, that's a sharp turn right after take off! If it was the east-west runway, it shows the outbound path is nowhere near the stadium site. But it looks unlikely that you were on the east-west runway considering how far north of Brookpark Road your plane was. 

 

Yes, we took off toward the NE, and made a right turn fairly quickly, heading to IAD.

37 minutes ago, columbus17 said:

Even convention centers and the like should be privately funded entirely.

Sure,  we can outsource NE Ohio conventions to here:

 

https://www.cpsports.com/events/conventions-trade-shows#:~:text=Cedar Point Sports Center is,square feet of open space. 

 

Edited April 17, 20241 yr by DO_Summers

Bears and city officials announcing a new stadium deal tomorrow. Probably. 

 

Better believe Jimmy and Dee will be paying close attention on the grift.

25 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Bears and city officials announcing a new stadium deal tomorrow. Probably. 

 

Better believe Jimmy and Dee will be paying close attention on the grift.

Bears???

36 minutes ago, columbus17 said:

Bears???

Yupp they plan to stay in the city after all, a new lakefront stadium.

 

https://abc7chicago.com/amp/chicago-bears-stadium-news-today-team-to-unveil-plans-for-new-lakefront-on-museum-campus/14716201/

Good quote from the article showing similarity to what's going on with the browns:

 

"The team had purchased the old Arlington Racecourse site in the northwest suburbs, but the chances of that becoming a stadium site have waned in recent weeks."

The Bears staying on the lakefront doesn't mean much for Cleveland's plans other than it does change the momentum just a touch from suburban stadiums back to the city. I hope both the city and the Haslams are listening.

I was just pointing out that they had a similar situation where the owners bought land in the suburbs so everyone was expecting a move outside the city but they ended up staying within the city. So just cautioning everyone jumping the gun with the airport land here in Cleveland. Still a lot to be discussed it seems.

2 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

I was just pointing out that they had a similar situation where the owners bought land in the suburbs so everyone was expecting a move outside the city but they ended up staying within the city. So just cautioning everyone jumping the gun with the airport land here in Cleveland. Still a lot to be discussed it seems.

I didn’t read or watch anything, what did the bears end up doing with the suburban land? 

Press conference is tomorrow folks, my apologies.

 

McCaskey demolished the race track; otherwise, the Bears aren't doing s**t for the time being. I imagine they'll try to find a buyer at some point.

 

 

Edited April 23, 20241 yr by TBideon