20 hours ago, marty15 said:

Submerged wood piles can last many hundreds of years in a a low oxygen environment. 

That's a perfect fit, @marty15. It does feel like all of the oxygen is being sucked out of the air down there, especially on game days.   😬

I'm doing some back-of-the-napkin SketchUp on the proposed stadium. I was curious specifically about the stadium being "underground" because of the flight restrictions.

I took a model of SoFi Stadium and stripped it down to just the seats, field, and concourses (and did some Browns branding lol). Exhibit A.

 

Then I took the model and placed it at the same "elevation" as best as I could match the rendering. In the rendering, it looks like only the uppermost deck of seats are above grade. Exhibit B.

 

It looks like there is some mounding happening around the stadium raising the ground up as people walk towards the stadium. Whether this is the case or not, the measurements indicate that the field itself in the rendering is about 120-150' underground.  For reference, the SoFi field is about 70-100' underground. Probably not useful information, but interesting nonetheless lol

 

Once more renderings are out, I'll probably try and recreate the mixed use development in this model I already have going.

Edited May 2, 20241 yr by Geowizical

SoFi field is actually 70 feet underground??

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

SoFi field is actually 70 feet underground??

Yup! Actually closer to 100'

Edited May 2, 20241 yr by Geowizical

1 hour ago, Geowizical said:

Yup! Actually closer to 100'

Maybe we could use all that fill to speed up the CHEERS plan so it’s done before we’re all dead.

2 hours ago, Geowizical said:

Yup! Actually closer to 100'

Having seen a few concerts at So-Fi (and the Stones in July provided they all keep breathing,) I can attest to this. It’s an odd feeling at first, but you get used to it. 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/illinois-governors-office-meets-with-bears-calls-their-stadium-proposal-a-non-starter

 

Illinois governor’s office meets with Bears, calls their stadium proposal “a non-starter”

 

Okay DeWine, your turn.

22 hours ago, CleveFan said:

I don’t see where the money is coming from for a stadium that doubles in price from 1.2 billion to 2.5 when the owner is asking for the same 50/50 split - I’d love for someone to explain that.  The Haslams  would be making a huge amount of money  from the new stadium  parking alone - and he’s not proposing a slightly larger owner funding contribution? 

So what’s the motivation for the city county state and public in general to pay 1.2 billion instead of 600,000?  

 

I also wonder - could the powers that be structure a deal that - if there really is  a 50/50 split to fund a Brookpark stadium that the Haslams  have to contribute “something”  to enable a redevelopment of the new stadium-less Cleveland lakefront? 
 

And ultimately, for the transformation of the city’s lakefront - I’m fine with the stadium moving - it’s just a shame it couldn’t have been to the east side of downtown or the post office site. A new “entertainment district” down there would’ve been a greater boost to the downtown economy than a suburban location -even though some will end up staying downtown - I’m sure there’s some  percentage that won’t. 

I'm still not convinced the post office site is completely out of play. Look what just happened in Chicago.  It just makes too much sense.

Someone talk to me why Brook Park would be a good spot. I’ve tried telling many people why sprawl is bad and this should stay in city limits. I almost feel defeated.

10 minutes ago, JB said:

Someone talk to me why Brook Park would be a good spot. I’ve tried telling many people why sprawl is bad and this should stay in city limits. I almost feel defeated.

 

It repurposes vacant industrial land within the existing built environment.  I wouldn't call it sprawl because it's not pushing development further out and it uses existing transportation infrastructure.  It's so close to city limits that I wouldn't be surprised if there was a deal to annex the land into the city of Cleveland.  

Personally, I would rather see the land used for airport expansion - long term parking, rental car facilities, hotels, etc.  However, I wonder if it would be problematic with the land being in Brook Park and the airport being in Cleveland. I suppose annexation would resolve that.  

Could also be how they get more funds even on a federal level spin the entire development as a transit hub 

27 minutes ago, JB said:

Someone talk to me why Brook Park would be a good spot. I’ve tried telling many people why sprawl is bad and this should stay in city limits. I almost feel defeated.

 

There are pros and cons all around, so I don't think the issue is quite as simple as "sprawl." There's just frankly far too many variable we don't have answers to.

 

Another big question that's painfully unclear is whether moving the stadium helps or hurts the Lakefront Plan. 

3 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Could also be how they get more funds even on a federal level spin the entire development as a transit hub 

 

Remember FWIW there's already a transit hub planned for the lakefront. 

8 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

There are pros and cons all around, so I don't think the issue is quite as simple as "sprawl." There's just frankly far too many variable we don't have answers to.

 

Another big question that's painfully unclear is whether moving the stadium helps or hurts the Lakefront Plan. 

The uncertainty hurts. Imagine if this nonsense goes on for four more years. The NFL shouldn't permit it, but since they don't seem to give a flying f-k, then Bibb has to push a firm deadline:

 

Haslems must commit by 12/31/24, or the city will not permit the Browns to play there after 2028. 

 

I think Haslems would blink first. Or not. Either way at least the city can begin properly planning development there.

 

Also, it would be better for the Browns to stay. That area needs all the help it can get to become a destination. Christ, we can't even fill the Flats.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JB said:

Someone talk to me why Brook Park would be a good spot. I’ve tried telling many people why sprawl is bad and this should stay in city limits. I almost feel defeated.

 

It gets Cleveland off the hook for stadium costs, that's a huge positive. I'm assuming the state would contribute the Cleveland portion if it came down to it. The county loses no matter where it is (as long as it's in the county).

13 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

It gets Cleveland off the hook for stadium costs, that's a huge positive. I'm assuming the state would contribute the Cleveland portion if it came down to it. The county loses no matter where it is (as long as it's in the county).

And if Cleveland isnt on the hook for a dome, that billion they are being asked to pony up could be used toward a really fantastic lakefront.  

15 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

And if Cleveland isnt on the hook for a dome, that billion they are being asked to pony up could be used toward a really fantastic lakefront.  

Hopefully the lakefront is more fantastic than the multiple iterations of lakefront planning since mayor jane Campbell started lakefront development planning in  early 1980's

So we have two proposols here. The stadium and the lakefront. I want the stadium somewhere downtown, preferably on the lakefront for two reasons. First, obviously is to keep the dollars and energy downtown and secondly, building it on the lakefront will ensure that the lakefront gets developed. Too many assume that if the stadium is built in Brookpark the lakefront will get developed too. Not necessarily. We've been trying to get it built for several generations. What in our sorry history of non-lakefront development makes people think if a stadium (and ancillary village) is built in Brookpark the lakefront will still get developed? 

 

I think the single best way to get BOTH is to build both on the lakefront. Otherwise...who knows what what will get built. We finally have a chance to kill two birds with one stone. I say fling it.

28 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Too many assume that if the stadium is built in Brookpark the lakefront will get developed too. Not necessarily. We've been trying to get it built for several generations. What in our sorry history of non-lakefront development makes people think if a stadium (and ancillary village) is built in Brookpark the lakefront will still get developed? 

 

I think the single best way to get BOTH is to build both on the lakefront. Otherwise...who knows what what will get built. We finally have a chance to kill two birds with one stone. I say fling it.

This is also my view. The DC waterfront got developed thanks to low interest rates, really rich benefactors, booming regional growth, and substantial government contributions. We dont have the same advantages. 

 

If the stadium moves, it seems like the energy goes to the river with Bedrock because there is already a working plan there. Which might not be a bad thing. But it definitely doesn’t bode well for the lakefront, unless it’s just turned into a big park like Irishtown Bend. That also might not be a bad thing. Just different than the gleaming buildings folks have imagined

If they do decide to build/renovate the stadium in its present location -- where the F do the Browns play for two years? -- That leads me to the conclusion that a new stadium is rising somewhere else.  The Brook Park site is already in Haslam's control, so that's my bet.

 

Even if it's not the best site, what can we hope for to make this new Brook Park "Browns Town" good TOD?  In addition to the stadium and parking sea, build a small "village"/Crocker Park as well -- lots of apartments over retail, an excellent red line station, small parks/plazas, a hotel or two.  Remember RTA is getting fancy new Siemens rail cars starting in 2027 -- just in time for the new stadium.

6 hours ago, JB said:

Someone talk to me why Brook Park would be a good spot. I’ve tried telling many people why sprawl is bad and this should stay in city limits. I almost feel defeated.

It's a good spot to people who want this because they want their surface parking without navigating the anxiety of the downtown grid and to avoid coming across homeless people. The WTAM callers wanting this reasoning that downtown has a "bad element" tells you all you need to know. The people in this region want suburban sprawl if it means there is a giant parking lot on the property of their destination. 

1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

It's a good spot to people who want this because they want their surface parking without navigating the anxiety of the downtown grid and to avoid coming across homeless people. The WTAM callers wanting this reasoning that downtown has a "bad element" tells you all you need to know. The people in this region want suburban sprawl if it means there is a giant parking lot on the property of their destination. 

These suburbanites calling in are real idiots. They must have forgotten how miserable it was to get into and out of the Richfield Coliseum on those one lane icy back roads with no where to go before/after a game. Rte 237 in Brook Park will be gridlock on game days. Good luck to all the travelers who need to get to Hopkins on game day. I hope Brook Park never happens. I do not see us getting a superbowl or final 4 even if we get the dome in brook park. Who are we kidding? They will always find a reason to turn us down such as not enough hotels in the area or not enough hotels in the immediate area or not enough direct flights in/out of cleveland. Browns please stay downtown. 

I understand how some suburbanites prefer a huge parking lot off a highway. I understand why callers keep gushing about a Browns development reminiscent of the great Crocker Park. Perhaps it’s even the majority of the fanbase that enjoys this experience over going to a real city. 
 

What I don’t understand is how Brook Park competes for big national events and conventions. If it’s November-March anyone in their right mind would prefer hosting a big event somewhere warm enough to enjoy the outdoors. For those events that could go to a cold weather city how is Brook Park going to compete with downtown Chicago, Indy, or Detroit?

 

Heck, even events like the big marching band competitions in Indy are multi-day with thousands of participants and audience members coming and going multiple times throughout. Final Fours and conventions are the same. Visitors better be ready to spend a lot of time on shuttle buses.  

from Hopkins, the red line takes less than 30 minutes to get to Ohio City and downtown...  Plus they're getting new trains...  

Edited May 3, 20241 yr by lockdog

This is probably only tangentially related to this, but I think it's related nonetheless... 

 

A major retail development around this site will almost certainly spell the unequivocal death of Crocker, Pinecrest, or Legacy/Beachwood. We've spoken about this before, but we should probably have 1-2 luxury retail locations in Greater Cleveland - and any development the Haslams propose, I assume, will not include Payless and Dollar Tree

40 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

This is probably only tangentially related to this, but I think it's related nonetheless... 

 

A major retail development around this site will almost certainly spell the unequivocal death of Crocker, Pinecrest, or Legacy/Beachwood. We've spoken about this before, but we should probably have 1-2 luxury retail locations in Greater Cleveland - and any development the Haslams propose, I assume, will not include Payless and Dollar Tree

 

I doubt it.  Why would the people with the money to shop at that sort of retail drive half an hour past Crocker, Pinecrest, or Legacy Village to get there?  The actual retail developers who built those properties knew something important- retail needs to be convenient to its customers.  Where do people with boutique level incomes live- the westshore suburbs, Chagrin Valley, The Heights, Hillcrest- which is where those developments are located, and why.  Are those people going to drive an extra half hour to spend their evening near the airport instead?

21 minutes ago, X said:

 

I doubt it.  Why would the people with the money to shop at that sort of retail drive half an hour past Crocker, Pinecrest, or Legacy Village to get there?  The actual retail developers who built those properties knew something important- retail needs to be convenient to its customers.  Where do people with boutique level incomes live- the westshore suburbs, Chagrin Valley, The Heights, Hillcrest- which is where those developments are located, and why.  Are those people going to drive an extra half hour to spend their evening near the airport instead?

Yeah it would be more likely to kill the Cascades (rare Brooklyn, OH reference) than Crocker. Goodbye Carabba’s, Chipotle, and Hooley House. 

I haven't really been around NEO much, especially since Covid. But hasn't traffic on I-480 always been significantly worse than I-90? In the past I-480 has always been a personal "avoid at all costs" zone during rush hours. I'm really curious about how the influx of 100k people would affect traffic, especially since I remember way back when how even mid-level IX center events just paralyzed the area.  

^^just coming to say this. Looking at Patriot Place as an example, a Red Robin, Cinnabon, Crumbl Cookies, an off brand Sbarro, and Victoria's secret isn't going to kill off Crocker Park. 

 

I was just at Crocker yesterday. The sun was out, families were enjoying the promenade, and a ton of dog walkers were out and about from their apartments on site. Pretty much all the storefeonts in the final/American Greetings phase have been filled. The green plywood walls are gone! The trees have grown in enough to give the place a sense of permanence. The people who go to crocker don't want to sit under a flight path at the airport enjoying boomer chains from the 1990s.

 

I think the real victim of a Stadium at the airport would be the endless supply of shopping plazas in greater parma. The Parking Lots at Parmatowne, Southland, Cascade Crossing, and maybe "downtown" Independence would all suffer worse being right along that 480/71. Crocker is on 90.  

3 hours ago, lockdog said:

from Hopkins, the red line takes less than 30 minutes to get to Ohio City and downtown...  Plus they're getting new trains...  

All true. I live 2 blocks away from the OHC station and take it often. I just think visitors spending ~1hr a day minimum on the redline, plus waits, plus walking time make the experience terrible compared to other domes which are all in either downtowns or warm climates. 
 

In my experience, even in bigger cities, when 60k+ are let out of a stadium at once the lines for trains are brutal. I don’t think the Uber situation will be great either. 
 

I guess visitors and those of us who don’t want to drive can all hang out at Jimmy’s Red Robin. 

Uh guys, traffic is actually going to disappear if they build in BP. It will be so much more convenient! And quick in and out! (according to supporters).

 

God forbid you need to drive to the airport on gameday (or! make a plane after dropping off a rental car- that experience is already miserable as is). 

1 hour ago, originaljbw said:

I think the real victim of a Stadium at the airport would be the endless supply of shopping plazas in greater parma. The Parking Lots at Parmatowne, Southland, Cascade Crossing, and maybe "downtown" Independence would all suffer worse being right along that 480/71. Crocker is on 90.  

 

They have nothing to worry about. No one in any city likes driving to or by an airport, and all the Kosar's Wood-fired Grills in the world won't make a difference. Prospective tenants are well aware of this. Jimmy and Dee are well aware of this. Urbanohio is well aware of this. The drunk tailgating idiots, eh, maybe those bootlickers will rah rah rah this fictional plan. 

 

There will be no ballpark village or entertainment district. It's a non issue.

 

Edited May 3, 20241 yr by TBideon

It is also interesting that both sites for the stadium have airport issues to deal with. 

1 hour ago, surfohio said:

I haven't really been around NEO much, especially since Covid. But hasn't traffic on I-480 always been significantly worse than I-90? In the past I-480 has always been a personal "avoid at all costs" zone during rush hours. 

They have recently addressed the evening rush hour bottleneck on I-480 westbound at I-71 by squeezing in a 3rd lane on the section over SR 237.

I’m surprised there isn’t more uproar about this process. People lose their minds about the whiff of a school levy but the Haslams are going around showing building renderings and asking for billions in public money while not being transparent with the public. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, coneflower said:

I’m surprised there isn’t more uproar about this process. People lose their minds about the whiff of a school levy but the Haslams are going around showing building renderings and asking for billions in public money while not being transparent with the public. 

 

 

Oh i think there will be a definite, loud uproar if this is Cleveland specific. If its County and State then maybe not so much. 

Edited May 3, 20241 yr by B767PILOT

When it comes to sports, fans become delusional and accepting of anything. Hell, the Browns have Harvey Weinstein starting, and no one seems to give a s**t anymore. 

19 hours ago, B767PILOT said:

And if Cleveland isnt on the hook for a dome, that billion they are being asked to pony up could be used toward a really fantastic lakefront.  

Unfortunately thats not how that works at all.  

6 minutes ago, coneflower said:

I’m surprised there isn’t more uproar about this process. People lose their minds about the whiff of a school levy but the Haslams are going around showing building renderings and asking for billions in public money while not being transparent with the public. 

 

 

 

I'm not sure how many people are actually paying attention yet. 

 

I think it's interesting that Bibb and other Cleveland officials have remained so quite on this and Haslam requesting a 50/50 split whether the stadium is built on the lakefront or Brook Park actually gives Cleveland quite a bit of leverage. I don't know that Cuyahoga County undercuts Cleveland by providing financial support to a Brook Park stadium. Brook Park can't provide as much financial support as Cleveland. Without local matching funds I'm not sure the State steps in to provide financial support. 

 

On top of all of that, if the state were to step in to cover the full 50% financing without local support for the Brook Park development I think there would be outrage once the reporting comes out that the State paid more than double what they other wise would have to help move the stadium to Brook Park. 

 

Not to take this off topic and make it political, but maybe those considerations don't matter given the gerrymandering in the state and the representatives safe seats. 

I fully support their supposed move to BP! Please, hurry up. Let me know how I can help speed the process up. Thanks. 😁 

Maybe Haslam can get Ikea to sign on in Brookpark, or maybe some other brands that arent in the Cleveland area

I really think unless jimmy is able to spin this development as something besides a stadium and a “village” they’ve made a pretty easy decision for the state to just give enough for the lakefront.
 

all the leverage is with the state of where this thing ends up and I think it would be hard for the state to give probably double the amount money when they don’t have to I think this stays at the lake, unless all of this is just to pressure Bibb and other to open some land east of downtown. otherwise I’m struggling to see how the state would reason giving so much more if a similar thing for less could exist on the lake and more aligns with infrastructure changes that are already being planned 

Edited May 3, 20241 yr by BoomerangCleRes

yea I've been wondering if they made the big ask in brookpark so the smaller lakefront ask seems like a bargain by comparison.

 

with Las Vegas off the board, NFL teams have less leverage when they threaten to move. 

3 hours ago, YABO713 said:

This is probably only tangentially related to this, but I think it's related nonetheless... 

 

A major retail development around this site will almost certainly spell the unequivocal death of Crocker, Pinecrest, or Legacy/Beachwood. We've spoken about this before, but we should probably have 1-2 luxury retail locations in Greater Cleveland - and any development the Haslams propose, I assume, will not include Payless and Dollar Tree

 

Washington DC can only support ONE luxury location (Dior, Jimmy Choo, Chanel, etc.), Tysons II in Virginia. They tried two but the one in Maryland failed (Marylanders are stingy and have no fashion sense).  I doubt there is demand for more than exist now in Cleveland and further doubt that a Brookpark stadium location would be a draw. 

Also the Bengals are patiently seeing where this goes. 

The difference in vision between the ownership of the Cavs and Browns is astounding. 

 

On one hand you have Dan Gilbert who has single-handedly rebuilt downtown Detroit.  In Cleveland he is investing in RoMo Fieldhouse, moving Cavs facilities downtown, and providing a striking vision for the future of downtown Cleveland. 

 

And on the other, there's Jimmy Haslam, who built dirty truckstops at freeway exits in the backwaters of America.  

 

Jimmy needs to be more like Dan.   

 

 

6 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Also the Bengals are patiently seeing where this goes. 

Shouldn’t they be ahead of us if their lease ends in 2026? I also saw they’re doing a $40m renovation right now 

 

edit:

i see bengals are trying to do a 5 year extension nvm

Edited May 3, 20241 yr by BoomerangCleRes

2 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Shouldn’t they be ahead of us if their lease ends in 2026? I also saw they’re doing a $40m renovation right now 

 

edit:

i see bengals are trying to do a 5 year extension nvm

Yeah it’s alot more ahead than meets the eye. The Bengals have already said they don’t want a new stadium and want to just renovate. They already have a structural renovation plan and are finalizing the “fun stuff” plans like video boards, concessions, suites etc, But both sides have been slow walking negotiations in particular the county. The Bengals apparently proposed a 5year extension in exchange for an additional 300 million in renovations while they work out a sort of second phase renovation of about an additional 300 million and a more long term extension. The county rejected that proposal and prefers to put it all in one big package and extension. In the meantime they have started work or smaller projects like club seats, expanded plaza entrance and new locker room. All these stadium projects are so complicated and drawn out it’s ridiculous.

Edited May 3, 20241 yr by 646empire

23 hours ago, B767PILOT said:

And if Cleveland isnt on the hook for a dome, that billion they are being asked to pony up could be used toward a really fantastic lakefront AIRPORT.  

 

FTFY.

 

But seriously though, it seems like the city is on the hook either way.