49 minutes ago, G00pie said:

This would be fantastic!!  Maybe we can get a proper aquarium, a new fields museum, a planetarium and/or a Cleveland sports museum!!!  Would go nice on the lake front surrounding by parks and residential! 

 

 

Thats so much land, the potential is insane. It could be one of the best lakefronts of any city just because of how blank the canvas is. Could also have a better bike path connecting downtown to the cultural gardens via the lakefront... Would it be possible to extend the waterfront line all the way to gordon park too?

Great, great reporting Ken. A lot of detail there.

 

This is something l have been thinking about for years. It checks sooo many boxes. Opens the lakefront for a massive park, creates a mini- downtown, gives the city a domed stadium while at the same time after the old stadium is torn down that site can be used for even more lakefront development. All of that brings more residents, energy, possible corporate hdqs. and new tax dollars to the city. With one

decision we turn a huge piece of property that has been

vastly underutilized into one that propels Cleveland up the ranks and on to the list of great American cities.

15 hours ago, simplythis said:

So where will we go to the Labor Day air show?  Cuyahoga County Airport?

I suppose they could still do an air show downtown, but it would have to be modified without any ground activities. Aircraft would have takeoff/land at CLE (I think the Tbirds are already doing that).

I would like to know who the feasibility consultant is who is telling Haslam that people will suddenly flock to Brook Park to live, shop or hang out if a domed stadium is constructed there.  It isn't going to be a draw like Allegiant or So-Fi because of the limited size of the Cleveland market and smaller budget. it is unlikely to draw from other established areas of downtown and adjacent neighborhoods or Greater Cleveland except on game dates or the occasional concert or monster truck show large enough to fill a stadium.  Not many national retailers or restaurants would locate near there because the factors retailers look at are not favorable in the immediate area (no offense to the locals).  There is already competition in Strongsville, North Olmsted, Westlake and Parma where retail and restaurants would need to draw from in order to justify the cost to build and operate. Retail and restaurant businesses are also contracting overall so an expansion into this area is a stretch.  Extensive environmental clean-up of this site will be necessary in order to build housing and such remediation would be very expensive and take a long time to accomplish given bureaucratic requirements. I'm sure young professionals (who apartment owners typically would target) would rather be in Brook Park than near the lake, Tremont, Ohio City, University Circle or downtown and let's not forget about the airport noise.

 

The Brook Park stadium plan is an obvious bluff but necessary negotiating ploy to motivate non-business minded City politicians to take a long-term view of what is best for the City of Cleveland. Haslam knows what the Titans are getting with their new domed stadium in Nashville and wants a similar deal (if not better than the 33% cost sharing the Titans are paying). Even though this location doesn't make logical sense, people need to stop worrying about making a billionaire team owner even richer and bite the bullet to negotiate for a downtown location.  Although fortunate enough to still support three major league sports teams that are a great source of civic pride and spin off business from regional tourism, we cannot afford to take this for granted.

 

Unfortunately, this is how the business of professional sports is played.  Burke reuse would be a game changer for the City and everyone who has any say in this decision must give in a little to make it happen.  Mayor Bibb cannot afford to call Haslam's bluff and risk being remembered as a one-term mayor who lost the Browns to a suburb

Look at how much back-n-forth is happening with the Chicago Bears stadium. "If it's Tuesday, it must be Arlington Heights."

1 hour ago, Sapientone said:

The Even though this location doesn't make logical sense, people need to stop worrying about making a billionaire team owner even richer and bite the bullet to negotiate for a downtown location.  Although fortunate enough to still support three major league sports teams that are a great source of civic pride and spin off business from regional tourism, we cannot afford to take this for granted.

I would be shocked if losing the Browns cost Bibb an election. He’s not the mayor of Medina County, he’s the mayor of the City of Cleveland. 
 

Also, you’re burying a lot in the second part of the above statement. As many others have pointed out, there is almost not evidence that there is a net benefit in “spinoff business from regional tourism”, especially for football stadiums. This stadium, if built, will cost taxpayers much much more than it will ever benefit them in any financial sense. 

^ The real benefit of this plan would be all the ancillary development that will not happen on its own without the stadium to drive it. It's that development that makes this a great idea, not the stadium. Of course it's not happening without the stadium so if want the whole enchalada we have to pay for and build one very expensive stadium.

Great reporting KJP. Well researched article. I think this is an UO forumer's. dream but the wait could be too long. What is shortest amount of time before FAA

allows burke to close. How long does it take Cuyahoga County airport to extend the airport runway? Jimmy Haslam is 70 years old. If he has to wait 10 years before he starts building and another 4-5 years before something is completed, Why would he do it because at that time he would be 85 whereas he could

start building in brook park within a couple of years.

just watched this video got me excited for the the even larger impact Burke closing could/would have 

or even on a similar scale what moving the post office could open up 

Edited June 29, 2024Jun 29 by BoomerangCleRes

59 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

just watched this video got me excited for the the even larger impact Burke closing could/would have 

or even on a similar scale what moving the post office could open up 

Apples to oranges.  

This site was 23 acres on a former lite office site. 

Burke is 450 acres on a reclaimed land filled with toxic dredging waste.   

 

 

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

Apples to oranges.  

This site was 23 acres on a former lite office site. 

Burke is 450 acres on a reclaimed land filled with toxic dredging waste.   

 

 

I said the larger impact the land Burke could have. 
 

also there’s so much coastal land that’s been built on polluted and contaminated dredged landfill I’m not sure it makes a difference land is land south beach, New York, Chicago, San Fran, Boston all built on similar land and all have had significant developments built off it. 

Edited June 30, 2024Jun 30 by BoomerangCleRes

1 hour ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

also there’s so much coastal land that’s been built on polluted and contaminated dredged landfill 

Im not sure each of these geographic locations would be similar in terms of industrial pollutants @BoomerangCleRes.

 

Does anyone have a map that shows the present Burke and the time period that various sections were constructed?   Unfortunately,dredgings from the Cuyahoga river and Cleveland harbor in the past were seriously polluted because of the nature of its industrial history. 

 

I think its likely that someone over the years has sampled the ground beneath Burke. Am I remembering correctly? @KJP and others?

 

Still. Encouraging rumors and sitting a stadium as the seed for other development is a different strategy.

Edited June 30, 2024Jun 30 by DO_Summers
clarity

Here ya go, DO! @DO_Summers

19 minutes ago, KJP said:

Here ya go, DO! @DO_Summers

Thanks, Ken. I thought I had remembered further additions to the eastern edge of Burke in the late 20th century. But i no longer live in Ohio, so i might be mis-remebering. 

38 minutes ago, DO_Summers said:

Im not sure each of these geographic locations would be similar in terms of industrial pollutants @BoomerangCleRes.

 

 

Chicago may be more similar as far as industrial pollutants but pretty much all old land reclamation used trash 

17 minutes ago, DO_Summers said:

Thanks, Ken. I thought I had remembered further additions to the eastern edge of Burke in the late 20th century. But i no longer live in Ohio, so i might be mis-remebering. 

 

Yes, that's an active confined disposal facility for all dredgings from the harbor and navigable river channel. So it's constantly growing. But that's going to be shifted to the CHEERS recreation site.

@KJP, great reporting. Could end up being one of your most consequential stories, no?

 

Any idea when the city’s announcement may come? Are we talking weeks, months?

Unknown. The city was going to make an announcement about the closure of Burke a month ago but pulled it back at the absolute last second. Even some pretty high-level sources are not sure why, which leads me to believe that something pretty big happened.

If Burke closes, the first thing I'd do is move the Port to Burke.  Frankly, I don't know that you even need to close Burke to do that.  The entire port facility would fit in the area east of Burke.  That would free up the ability to develop all the way from the North Coast Harbor to Flats East Bank.  Development in that area would be a lot easier to connect to downtown (not dealing with the Shoreway west of W. 3rd + future landbridge) and and it would support investments already made. or in the works (FEB, North Coast Harbor investments, Lakefront Plan, Landbridge, Convention Center, etc.)  Trying to create a neighborhood from scratch over at Burke is an enormous lift and would undermine a lot of resources and initiatives that have already been focused on the area just north of downtown.

^ Moving the port there was always my desire too. However, when you look at it, a couple of barriers come up. Firstly, maybe they’d have no sway, but I’m not sure what the couple of yacht clubs by there would have to say about that idea. Secondly and probably more significantly, intermodal rail connections, which are already there and I assume, are in use, at the current port, would need to be put in the new spot. Presumably, at great expense. 

How many acres does the current port of cleveland have?

11 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Moving the port there was always my desire too. However, when you look at it, a couple of barriers come up. Firstly, maybe they’d have no sway, but I’m not sure what the couple of yacht clubs by there would have to say about that idea. Secondly and probably more significantly, intermodal rail connections, which are already there and I assume, are in use, at the current port, would need to be put in the new spot. Presumably, at great expense. 

Ya it looks like the rail connections would probably be the biggest issue. I think we are still the only container port on the Great Lakes. 

 

Moving it East would likely be very messy. You'd have to cross the highway, and it would make the connection to the existing lines very difficult. 

 

Moving it West near the ore docks would probably be the easiest move freight-wise, but there isn't much room over there. That would also put even more trains on that draw bridge, which could impact Amtrak traffic if expansion comes to the lakefront station. It'd probably be over 100 trains per day. 

 

But man I would love to have that space developed. 

^Yes, moving the port would be a big undertaking, but if the City is prepared to invest in the relocation of an airport, it could move some train tracks too.  I believe it was prepared to move the Port to E. 55th several years ago anyway.  The main difference is that moving the port supports and enhances many investments already underway that are working towards a common vision.  Its another brick in a comprehensive lakefront vision.  My biggest objections to Brook Park and Burke are that they do not build off of anything; they are trying to reinvent the wheel.  They are attempting to create a dense, live work neighborhood out of thin air when our downtown lakefront already has so many of the puzzle pieces in place.  Bonus- moving the port allows us to make upgrades that maybe improves the port operations.  Double bonus- You don't even necessarily have to move Burke or drastically change the current lakefront plans. 

2 hours ago, Dino said:

^Yes, moving the port would be a big undertaking, but if the City is prepared to invest in the relocation of an airport, it could move some train tracks too.  I believe it was prepared to move the Port to E. 55th several years ago anyway.  The main difference is that moving the port supports and enhances many investments already underway that are working towards a common vision.  Its another brick in a comprehensive lakefront vision.  My biggest objections to Brook Park and Burke are that they do not build off of anything; they are trying to reinvent the wheel.  They are attempting to create a dense, live work neighborhood out of thin air when our downtown lakefront already has so many of the puzzle pieces in place.  Bonus- moving the port allows us to make upgrades that maybe improves the port operations.  Double bonus- You don't even necessarily have to move Burke or drastically change the current lakefront plans. 

Question. If a big problem with building a dome on top of the Current Cleveland Browns stadium site was the weight it would carry on that land due to the dredging, wouldn't it be the same issue with Burke due to it having a similar foundation as North Coast Harbor? 

27 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Question. If a big problem with building a dome on top of the Current Cleveland Browns stadium site was the weight it would carry on that land due to the dredging, wouldn't it be the same issue with Burke due to it having a similar foundation as North Coast Harbor? 

 

No because no existing structure is next to it that could be weakened by excavating a new foundation.

City announces north coast harbor update for August 5th

 

”

Cleveland's North Coast Lakefront Future Forum.

Join Mayor Bibb and Team for a Festive Update

 

Mayor Bibb and the North Coast team will share the latest updates on the North Coast Connector and the North Coast Master Plan.

 

Following the moderated discussion, share your ideas and reactions about the preliminary plans through interactive exhibits.

 

Also learn about the new North Coast Waterfront Development Authority and

record your Lake Erie memories while enjoying lake views, food and good times.”

There are so may variables still at play for the city to be approving any new budgets to develop the lakefront plan.  Until the decisions are finalized on Burke, Browns Stadium plans, and ODOT highway boulevard conversion we should put development plans on hold. Field Operations is making too much money for plans that will continue to be scrapped or adjusted.

That makes a lot sense.

23 hours ago, dave2017 said:

we should put development plans on hold. Field Operations is making too much money 

Nope. Its driving readership this site. Someone else must be making too much money 🤨

Lawmaker says Browns pushing for Ohio investment in stadium through bonds, not direct funds

The Statehouse News Bureau | By Karen Kasler

Published July 12, 2024

 

 

Sen. Matt Dolan (R-Chagrin Falls) is the chair of the Senate Finance committee, and a part owner of the Cleveland Guardians baseball team. Dolan said the state would be a partner in a new Browns stadium or a renovation, but not with direct money from the state's general revenue fund.

 

"I don't know that that the Browns' offer is being accurately portrayed in the media," Dolan said in an interview for "The State of Ohio". "What they're actually saying to the state is, look at our plan and look at the return on investment over the next 30 years. And what we're saying is, if the state would give us the full faith and credit and go bond out $600 million, not write a check, but bond out those dollars, the Browns are saying we can show a return where the state actually will benefit from this."

 

 

...

 

Dolan said like with any investment, state officials would need to determine if there’s a real return over the next 30 years. But if there isn’t, Ohio taxpayers would be on the hook for $600 million. Dolan says he’s looking into it, but that the concept is, in his words, a win-win.

 

https://www.ideastream.org/2024-07-12/lawmaker-says-browns-pushing-for-ohio-investment-in-stadium-through-bonds-not-direct-funds

Gotta love the mental gynmastics. Public funds are public funds.

20 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Gotta love the mental gynmastics. Public funds are public funds, asshole.

 

Not if the Browns are proposing or at least willing to discuss privately-backed bonds.  The airport has some debt with Cleveland's name on it, but United Airlines is obliged to pay it off. 

That would be great, but the fact you're bringing up private finance while the team/city/county "leaders" haven't is disheartening and pretty telling. 

Haslam's still undecided. https://www.crainscleveland.com/sports-recreation/haslams-reiterate-need-public-financing-stadium-project

Brown;s hope to have stadium decision sooner rather later. They have a nice development project in Berea  which includes a 7500 seat stadium. https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/browns-owners-tout-teams-stability-success-while-considering-stadium-renovation-possible-new-dome

On 7/27/2024 at 9:45 PM, simplythis said:

Haslam's still undecided.

 

He's running out of time and is suddenly less certain he wants to spend any of his own money on the gambit he proposed to force the city's hand?

 

36 minutes ago, math said:

 

He's running out of time and is suddenly less certain he wants to spend any of his own money on the gambit he proposed to force the city's hand?

 

Agreed, his indecision is already costing taxpayers money by delaying and potentially modifying plans. The Browns need to make a decision so that the City can plan accordingly. 

Brook Park mayor talks Brown's Stadium. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/its-exciting-to-be-an-option-brook-park-mayor-speaks-to-i-team-about-potential-for-cleveland-browns-domed-stadium/

Turf War. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/oh-cuyahoga/turf-war-ohio-lawmaker-pushes-to-mandate-natural-grass-at-all-pro-sports-stadiums

"Republican Ohio State Representative Rodney Creech, who owns a turfgrass business, discussed the bill on Tuesday at a press briefing."

 

The loons aren't even pretending anymore. Not even bothering with a shell corporation

21 minutes ago, TBideon said:

"Republican Ohio State Representative Rodney Creech, who owns a turfgrass business, discussed the bill on Tuesday at a press briefing."

 

The loons aren't even pretending anymore. Not even bothering with a shell corporation

 

is he planning on spending ohio taxpayer $$$ on making that happen? or just make it an infamous unfunded mandate?

not that its his motivation, but there is a lot of research showing artificial turf causes more injuries than real grass.

2 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

not that its his motivation, but there is a lot of research showing artificial turf causes more injuries than real grass.

I've played on both, and for me, I'll take a nicely manicured grass field over turf.  Aside from the knee, ankle, and turf toe injuries...turf is not as forgiving as grass for head injuries.  

Emergency Repairs needed at brown's stadium. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/millions-needed-for-browns-stadium-repairs-even-during-new-stadium-talks/

3 hours ago, simplythis said:

Emergency Repairs needed at brown's stadium. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/millions-needed-for-browns-stadium-repairs-even-during-new-stadium-talks/

Browns stadium always needs Emergency repairs no matter the year.

12 hours ago, simplythis said:

Emergency Repairs needed at brown's stadium. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/millions-needed-for-browns-stadium-repairs-even-during-new-stadium-talks/

 

I don't believe this is anything new?

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

I don't believe this is anything new?

 

 

 

 

This is called "fast-tracking" in City of Cleveland government.   Hence the need for emergency repairs.... 

19 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

This is called "fast-tracking" in City of Cleveland government.   Hence the need for emergency repairs.... 

 

I guess my point is that you'd never know that it's been planned (and some already in progress/complete) from Ed G. and the I-Team. Then again I'd never accuse Ed G./Fox 8 of creating a headline to generate clicks, never!

 

Edit: I looked up photos from last time I wandered down that way - March - at that point they were already jackhammering ramps/concrete and doing a ton of interior work.

Edited August 1, 2024Aug 1 by GISguy

On 7/29/2024 at 9:03 AM, Ethan said:

Agreed, his indecision is already costing taxpayers money by delaying and potentially modifying plans. The Browns need to make a decision so that the City can plan accordingly. 

I have heard (albeit with so-so confidence) that they want to make a decision before the end of the month. Want to vs Do is another matter though…

Mayor Justin Bibb goes public with $461M taxpayer-funded offer to renovate Browns stadium, asks Haslams to respond by Aug. 12

Published: Aug. 01, 2024

By Courtney Astolfi, cleveland.com

 

Bibb, in a press release, laid out his offer to the Browns to keep them in Cleveland. That offer would amount to $461 million in city subsidies, including:

 

· $367 million ($227 million from increases in admission tax revenues, $120 million from Cuyahoga County sin tax revenues, and $20 million in existing stadium capital reserves) over the 30-year lease term, with a five-year renewal option.

 

· The city will turn the Willard Garage and the Muni Lot over to the Browns for their exclusive use on game days and event days. Parking revenues are expected to generate $94 million for capital repairs and improvements.

 

· Under the current lease, the city covers $1.3 million in annual property taxes and insurance, while the Browns pay $250,000 in rent. Under the proposed new lease, rent will be waived for the Browns, but they will assume responsibility for the insurance and tax payments. This adjustment aligns with the lease agreements held by the Guardians and Cavs, making it consistent across sports franchises in Cleveland.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/08/mayor-justin-bibb-goes-public-with-461m-taxpayer-funded-offer-to-renovate-browns-stadium-asks-haslams-to-respond-by-aug-12.html