12 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

As much as my petty side would love this, I think it is worth allowing the Browns to continue to use the stadium until they can move into Brookpark. (1) We can renegotiate the terms to hopefully be more favorable to the city for that interim period. (2) I think it's worth preserving a working relationship with Jim, like it or not the city will have to deal with him in some capacity even after he leaves. And with him seemingly making the pivot into the development space maybe there are other projects in the city he could take on. 

Agreed, don't stonewall, just charge a lot more, if they need to extend their lease. The City can actually make money off the stadium, at least for the brief time the Browns need to use it. Make Jimmy put a few million into the general fund if the Brook Park Stadium isn't ready in time. It's what any other landlord would do, and it seems more than fair to me. 

Haslam's TeslaTruck Emporium is going to do wonders for Brookpark, just like how the Silverdome turned around Pontiac, Michigan.

13 minutes ago, coneflower said:

 

The city is paying, like all of us, if the state and county fill in the gaps for Jimmy. That's just dumb expecting the city of Cleveland to pay more. I can't listen to talk radio around here it's painful. 

State and county being extorted isn't a sure thing yet. DeWine is no Pritzker, but maybe he'll locate one of his shriveled marbles and say F OFF to the grifters barring a profit-sharing agreement. 

3 hours ago, dski44 said:

They are no longer required for new season ticket holders. But, they still exist for us who have had tickets prior to 2013.

 

From the PSL Agreement:

 

4. PSL RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS A.  Recipient has the right and obligation to purchase season tickets for the Seats for all the Cleveland Browns home games (preseason, regular season and post-season) for as long as the Cleveland Browns play in the Stadium. 

 

So,my fear expectation is that ownership will reinstitutes PSL's and will require all season ticker holders to purchase new licenses. 

Fixed.

Great scoop @KJP . I like the idea of them moving the stadium there. Anyone coming into town for a weekend to see a game will be a short train ride into the city so, as far as I’m concerned, this is TOD. I cant wait to see what comes of the current stadium site; so much potential for all that land overlooking the water… and maybe the city can annex the land from Brook Park, magically, and then everyone can say the Browns are still in Cleveland and we’re all winners 

15 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Fixed.

Quick math 

50k seats per $1,500 average PSL per seat = 75mil

 

Another reason to seek a new facility.

Edited August 8, 2024Aug 8 by dski44

On 8/6/2024 at 2:58 PM, scg80 said:

So on game days, would parking at the airport increase to $80 too or can we assume Browns fans will park there instead to save money, thus leaving no parking for actual airport visitors.

I'm wondering if the airport might end up doing some sort of parking validation, one rate if you can prove you have a ticket, another rate for everyone else. I don't know if they have the capability to do this even if they wanted to, but if not they may choose to develop it. They could probably use flight confirmation number, either as validation, or to deny entry to the parking area entirely. Not sure, just theorizing. 

2 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I'm wondering if the airport might end up doing some sort of parking validation, one rate if you can prove you have a ticket, another rate for everyone else. I don't know if they have the capability to do this even if they wanted to, but if not they may choose to develop it. They could probably use flight confirmation number, either as validation, or to deny entry to the parking area entirely. Not sure, just theorizing. 

 

Charge a high hourly rate, lower daily rate? Will mean people that come for games or events will be hit with the high hourly rate. 

20 minutes ago, Nickel Plate RR said:

maybe the city can annex the land from Brook Park, magically, and then everyone can say the Browns are still in Cleveland and we’re all winners 

Yeah, in exchange, Cleveland can give the IX Center back to Brook Park. 🤣

11 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

Charge a high hourly rate, lower daily rate? Will mean people that come for games or events will be hit with the high hourly rate.

The current airport daily rate is much less than Browns parking, but I think maybe you mean that if the car was in the lot less than 24hrs they would get charged much more than if they left the car there for 24hrs or more? So something like ~$20/hr (maybe maxing at $100) but after ~18hrs it changes to $25/day instead of the hourly rate. Interesting, unorthodox pricing model, but could work. 

Just now, Ethan said:

The current airport daily rate is much less than Browns parking, but I think maybe you mean that if the car was in the lot less than 24hrs they would get charged much more than if they left the car there for 24hrs or more? So something like ~$20/hr (maybe maxing at $100) but after ~18hrs it changes to $25/day instead of the hourly rate. Interesting, unorthodox pricing model, but could work. 

 

Yup, something like this is what I was thinking. 

Reading between the lines of the Browns’ Brook Park domed stadium plans

 

by Nick Castele

August 8, 2024

 

The team would assemble $1.2 billion in private financing for the project, with the public picking up the other half.

 

...

 

The letter did not spell out what those mechanisms were, or how they would produce enough revenue to cover the public’s $1.2 billion side of the construction price. The sketches released by the Browns show retail and hotels around the new stadium that could generate new economic development and bolster the potential revenue of the project. 

 

But among supporters of a lakefront renovation inside and outside City Hall, there’s skepticism that the Brook Park project will generate the tax dollars necessary to make the financing work. 

 

https://signalcleveland.org/reading-between-the-lines-of-the-browns-brook-park-domed-stadium-plans/

9 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

Yup, something like this is what I was thinking. 

 

i just looked at parking payment tech and good grief there are so many options and methods probably anything is possible.

42 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I'm wondering if the airport might end up doing some sort of parking validation, one rate if you can prove you have a ticket, another rate for everyone else. I don't know if they have the capability to do this even if they wanted to, but if not they may choose to develop it. They could probably use flight confirmation number, either as validation, or to deny entry to the parking area entirely. Not sure, just theorizing. 

 

Oh man, just had a vision where the airport parking could undercut Jimmy on all that lot revenue 

[maniacal laugh] 

10 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

Reading between the lines of the Browns’ Brook Park domed stadium plans

 

Starting a petition to stop calling this "a dome." This is not a dome folks! 

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

State and county being extorted isn't a sure thing yet. DeWine is no Pritzker, but maybe he'll locate one of his shriveled marbles and say F OFF to the grifters barring a profit-sharing agreement. 

With DeWine involved, he may demand that it be named FirstEnergy Stadium.

1 hour ago, dski44 said:

Quick math 

50k seats per $1,500 average PSL per seat = 75mil

 

Another reason to seek a new facility.

 

I think you're vastly underestimating how much PSL's will be. I think $3-5k will be the floor. 

 

Here's what Buffalo(!) is dealing with at the moment (they haven't had folks in to purchase the cheap seats yet):

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1162094064953276/?_rdr

3 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Dan DeRoos on Carman and Lima 92.3 saying Cleveland should pitch in or they would look bad. Because they are the Cleveland Browns after all. 

 

I swear, Bibb would be an even bigger clown than I've imagined if he pitches in for Jimmy to get his playground and inevitably take hotel guests, concerts (you're naive if this thing doesn't hurt Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse getting concerts), restaurant patrons, housing (ie Large amount of tax revenue) from downtown and Cleveland proper. I'm so sick of this mentality of "it's all Cleveland" in name only but not resource or revenue sharing. Cleveland is in the mess it is today because of this stupid mentality that the suburbs are "Cleveland" so let's move everything to them while depleting downtown/city proper of everything (Jobs, population,  entertinment, etc)

I heard that too and could not believe he actually said that. I know 92.3 and their writers basically just say whatever they think the Haslam's want, but that was a whole new level of delusion. 

strange how none of the hosts on the fan are influenced by the relationship the browns have with the station, but all have the exact same affirmative opinion on the browns moving to Brook Park. 

3 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I swear, Bibb would be an even bigger clown than I've imagined if he pitches in for Jimmy to get his playground and inevitably take hotel guests, concerts (you're naive if this thing doesn't hurt Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse getting concerts), restaurant patrons, housing (ie Large amount of tax revenue) from downtown and Cleveland proper. 

The stadium would not take any concerts away from RoMoFoHo.   Apples to oranges.   

I am going to throw out a wild prediction here...Brook Park cannot shell out practically anything in the form of subsidies, and they know it. A Ronayne-run county government is most likely upset at a move out of the core city. They are going to play hardball with Haslam because A: the taxpayers would be furious at the subsidy they are asking, and B: they know he really has no other options at this point. 

 

Prediction: Browns still move to the former Ford plant site, the city of Cleveland annexes the land from Brook Park with a fair tax-sharing agreement between the cities. Now CLE can contribute their share of subsidy, Brook Park gives some, Cuyahoga Co. and even possibly state gov. feel better about giving subsidy now that the city is not completely out of the deal. Everyone is seen as compromising. All is at peace in NEO.

9 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

The stadium would not take any concerts away from RoMoFoHo.   Apples to oranges.   

How do you figure? The renderings pretty clearly show scaled down seating configurations that could work as a RMFH alternative. With the amount of money being spent, Haslam will be looking to get as many uses out of the stadium as possible.

9 minutes ago, YO to the CLE said:

 

Prediction: Browns still move to the former Ford plant site, the city of Cleveland annexes the land from Brook Park with a fair tax-sharing agreement between the cities. Now CLE can contribute their share of subsidy, Brook Park gives some, Cuyahoga Co. and even possibly state gov. feel better about giving subsidy now that the city is not completely out of the deal. Everyone is seen as compromising. All is at peace in NEO.

What would Cleveland be getting out of this deal? If they annexed the land in order to help provide funds, I’d ask for NASA Glenn back.

Honestly probably nothing since it has been proven over and over that subsidizing large sports stadiums is a losing proposition for cities. Probably more of a PR win than anything. The Browns aren't seen as "leaving" the city, and the city still keeps some tax revenue.

33 minutes ago, YO to the CLE said:

I am going to throw out a wild prediction here...Brook Park cannot shell out practically anything in the form of subsidies, and they know it. A Ronayne-run county government is most likely upset at a move out of the core city. They are going to play hardball with Haslam because A: the taxpayers would be furious at the subsidy they are asking, and B: they know he really has no other options at this point. 

 

Prediction: Browns still move to the former Ford plant site, the city of Cleveland annexes the land from Brook Park with a fair tax-sharing agreement between the cities. Now CLE can contribute their share of subsidy, Brook Park gives some, Cuyahoga Co. and even possibly state gov. feel better about giving subsidy now that the city is not completely out of the deal. Everyone is seen as compromising. All is at peace in NEO.

Couldn’t agree more 

23 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

What would Cleveland be getting out of this deal? If they annexed the land in order to help provide funds, I’d ask for NASA Glenn back.

They’d be getting the same thing they were gonna get with the offer Bibb made public. And an open Lakefront 

37 minutes ago, MostlyThere14 said:

How do you figure? The renderings pretty clearly show scaled down seating configurations that could work as a RMFH alternative. With the amount of money being spent, Haslam will be looking to get as many uses out of the stadium as possible.

It's been tried in other markets.   The extra costs involved in scaling down the venue make it not-competitive for promoters to book there.   You have to factor in all the extra rigging, high steel, bucket trucks, soft goods etc.   None of that has to be done to produce a show at an arena.    

If you love music, stadium concerts kinda suck.  They can be a spectacle but the sound quality is usually awful 

1 hour ago, YO to the CLE said:

I am going to throw out a wild prediction here...Brook Park cannot shell out practically anything in the form of subsidies, and they know it. A Ronayne-run county government is most likely upset at a move out of the core city. They are going to play hardball with Haslam because A: the taxpayers would be furious at the subsidy they are asking, and B: they know he really has no other options at this point. 

 

Prediction: Browns still move to the former Ford plant site, the city of Cleveland annexes the land from Brook Park with a fair tax-sharing agreement between the cities. Now CLE can contribute their share of subsidy, Brook Park gives some, Cuyahoga Co. and even possibly state gov. feel better about giving subsidy now that the city is not completely out of the deal. Everyone is seen as compromising. All is at peace in NEO.

 

What subsidies can Cleveland offer that Brook Park cannot? If anything, Brook Park can offer a TIF on employee incomes from the stadium that Cleveland cannot because Cleveland said it wouldn't take anything out of its general fund for the stadium. These aren't revenues being taken out of Brook Park's general fund because they don't yet exist there. 

39 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

It's been tried in other markets.   The extra costs involved in scaling down the venue make it not-competitive for promoters to book there.   You have to factor in all the extra rigging, high steel, bucket trucks, soft goods etc.   None of that has to be done to produce a show at an arena.

But it does happen and is happening with tours taking place right now. The stadium has been intentionally designed for it to be scaled down. Whether it ends up that way remains to be seen but based on the renderings this stadium could compete with RMFH for events. I hope you're right but I bet Jimmy is looking to fill the calendar as much as he possibly can.

2 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

I think you're vastly underestimating how much PSL's will be. I think $3-5k will be the floor. 

 

Here's what Buffalo(!) is dealing with at the moment (they haven't had folks in to purchase the cheap seats yet):

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1162094064953276/?_rdr

 

Wow!!  This will recoup a chunk of the money ownership pledges to spend to get this built. 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

What subsidies can Cleveland offer that Brook Park cannot? If anything, Brook Park can offer a TIF on employee incomes from the stadium that Cleveland cannot because Cleveland said it wouldn't take anything out of its general fund for the stadium. These aren't revenues being taken out of Brook Park's general fund because they don't yet exist there. 

Can BP offer $461 Million ? 

The more I think about it, the more I think the public at any level should not shoulder any part of building in Brook Park. The team is asking taxpayers to pay for them to duplicate everything that already exists downtown -- hotels, restaurants and bars, entertainment, parking and other amenities. Why the heck would we pay $1.2B to rebuild and compete with what already exists that we have already paid for with tax money? 

 

If the Haslams would like to do it their way, I believe in capitalism and they have a right to bring a new product to the market. But why should taxpayers fund it? The only actual argument you can make is that if we make 'em too mad, they'll move the team to another city. And that's a reasonable worry to consider. But all the other stuff to me is not compelling.

Edited August 8, 2024Aug 8 by coneflower

4 hours ago, Luke_S said:

Reading between the lines of the Browns’ Brook Park domed stadium plans

https://signalcleveland.org/reading-between-the-lines-of-the-browns-brook-park-domed-stadium-plans/

This article states that there is an updated Brown's rendering of the downtown stadium too.

 

The Browns have produced renderings of a potential lakefront renovation, but did not release them on Tuesday. 

 

One person who has seen the renderings described the lakefront proposal to Signal Cleveland this week as a “dramatic renovation” – “essentially a reconstruction as opposed to a renovation.” The person asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the discussions.

 

While the stadium would remain open-air, it would be wrapped in a new glass skin that shields the interior from the elements. The design change would allow for more open and spacious concourses inside. 

 

In the Browns’ illustrations, Cleveland’s proposed land bridge would connect directly to the stadium, the person said. The linkage would create an “open lawn” space outside the stadium for events such as summer movie showings.

Edited August 8, 2024Aug 8 by Rustbelter

6 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Dan DeRoos on Carman and Lima 92.3 saying Cleveland should pitch in or they would look bad. Because they are the Cleveland Browns after all. 

 

I swear, Bibb would be an even bigger clown than I've imagined if he pitches in for Jimmy to get his playground and inevitably take hotel guests, concerts (you're naive if this thing doesn't hurt Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse getting concerts), restaurant patrons, housing (ie Large amount of tax revenue) from downtown and Cleveland proper. I'm so sick of this mentality of "it's all Cleveland" in name only but not resource or revenue sharing. Cleveland is in the mess it is today because of this stupid mentality that the suburbs are "Cleveland" so let's move everything to them while depleting downtown/city proper of everything (Jobs, population,  entertinment, etc)

Good little lapdogs will be rewarded with their free studio space at Disneyland I'm sure as part of the pillaging of tenants from elsewhere in the region.

53 minutes ago, ClevelandNative said:

Can BP offer $461 Million ? 

 

The vast majority of the offer was from gate revenues

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2024Aug 8 by GISguy

33 minutes ago, Rustbelter said:

This article states that there is an updated Brown's rendering of the downtown stadium too.

 

The Browns have produced renderings of a potential lakefront renovation, but did not release them on Tuesday. 

 

One person who has seen the renderings described the lakefront proposal to Signal Cleveland this week as a “dramatic renovation” – “essentially a reconstruction as opposed to a renovation.” The person asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the discussions.

 

While the stadium would remain open-air, it would be wrapped in a new glass skin that shields the interior from the elements. The design change would allow for more open and spacious concourses inside. 

 

In the Browns’ illustrations, Cleveland’s proposed land bridge would connect directly to the stadium, the person said. The linkage would create an “open lawn” space outside the stadium for events such as summer movie showings.

Sounds pretty nice 

42 minutes ago, Rustbelter said:

This article states that there is an updated Brown's rendering of the downtown stadium too.

 

The Browns have produced renderings of a potential lakefront renovation, but did not release them on Tuesday. 

 

One person who has seen the renderings described the lakefront proposal to Signal Cleveland this week as a “dramatic renovation” – “essentially a reconstruction as opposed to a renovation.” The person asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the discussions.

 

While the stadium would remain open-air, it would be wrapped in a new glass skin that shields the interior from the elements. The design change would allow for more open and spacious concourses inside. 

 

In the Browns’ illustrations, Cleveland’s proposed land bridge would connect directly to the stadium, the person said. The linkage would create an “open lawn” space outside the stadium for events such as summer movie showings.

They dont want to show it because they dont want people to realize we can have the same type of region changing stadium/development on the Lakefront as they are proposing in Brookpark but for cheaper. You dont have to spend all the money to make downtown an attractive destination like they have to in Brookpark because downtown already has all the amenities.

Edited August 8, 2024Aug 8 by TDi

Not to harp on it but my god that’s so much land just for parking, feels not of the era of development 

 

1 minute ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Not to harp on it but my god that’s so much land just for parking, feels not of the era of development 

 

As suggested time and time again in this thread, all that surface parking, which Haslam will control, is one of the key reasons for the move.  And actually, there will be even more surface parking than depicted in this rendering because none of that ancillary stuff will ever be built.

14 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

As suggested time and time again in this thread, all that surface parking, which Haslam will control, is one of the key reasons for the move.  And actually, there will be even more surface parking than depicted in this rendering because none of that ancillary stuff will ever be built.

So if nothing besides the Stadium is actually built is it really a win for Brook Park and is it REALLY that much of a loss for Cleveland?

6 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

So if nothing besides the Stadium is actually built is it really a win for Brook Park and is it REALLY that much of a loss for Cleveland?

Right, I'm going to reserve all judgment on the ancillary development until they make the final decision. The negative "none of that will get built" discussion is circular and has been circular for some time and like MyPhone said, if they don't end up building any of the apartment/retail shown it in Brook Park, then we can be glad they didn't build all those parking lots on the lakefront and maybe the city got all of that extra land to actually make meaningful parks/recreation/residential infrastructure in the end.

29 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Not to harp on it but my god that’s so much land just for parking, feels not of the era of development 

 

I like how they've added trees to the airport parking lots too... Amazing how they greenwash these renderings. 

 

I can be okay with the ratio of development to parking, a suburban stadium will need lots of parking, what is driving me crazy is the location of the development. This should be in the direction of the redline and airport so that it can benefit from transit and layover traffic. The fact that it's not seems like malpractice to me, and incredibly self defeating. I have to assume it's FAA requirements, but even if it is, I think 5-6 story developments located near the transit will likely fair better than 8-12 story development in the middle of a giant parking lot. 

2 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

This article states that there is an updated Brown's rendering of the downtown stadium too.

 

The Browns have produced renderings of a potential lakefront renovation, but did not release them on Tuesday. 

 

One person who has seen the renderings described the lakefront proposal to Signal Cleveland this week as a “dramatic renovation” – “essentially a reconstruction as opposed to a renovation.” The person asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the discussions.

 

While the stadium would remain open-air, it would be wrapped in a new glass skin that shields the interior from the elements. The design change would allow for more open and spacious concourses inside. 

 

In the Browns’ illustrations, Cleveland’s proposed land bridge would connect directly to the stadium, the person said. The linkage would create an “open lawn” space outside the stadium for events such as summer movie showings.

Interesting. It sounds like it’d closely resemble the placeholder that was used for the stadium renovation in the final lakefront development plans. I’m guessing the Browns shared those plans with the North Coast team:

1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said:

So if nothing besides the Stadium is actually built is it really a win for Brook Park and is it REALLY that much of a loss for Cleveland?

 

I say yes. Without the Haslam partnership, Bibb has got a gigantic physical and monetary hole to fill to make his lakefront plan a reality. I would love to be wrong, but where is that partner coming from? We're struggling to get capital for modest projects right now.

 

37 minutes ago, coneflower said:

I say yes. Without the Haslam partnership, Bibb has got a gigantic physical and monetary hole to fill to make his lakefront plan a reality. I would love to be wrong, but where is that partner coming from? We're struggling to get capital for modest projects right now.

 

 

What monetary contribution were the Haslams going to make for anything other than the stadium?

43 minutes ago, Mendo said:

 

What monetary contribution were the Haslams going to make for anything other than the stadium?

They haven’t committed to anything anywhere. They are fickle as hell. But the implication all along has been they wanted to develop around the stadium and reap the profits. I’m not suggesting they would be great to work with. I’m saying that they have the money and capacity (at least on paper) to do something big that Cleveland will be losing, and there doesn’t appear to be an easy way to fill that void anytime soon. We have tons of huge opportunities all over that are not moving simply because we don’t have enough resources. The Bedrock riverfront plan, which seems most realistic right now, spans 45 years. 
 

 

3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

So if nothing besides the Stadium is actually built is it really a win for Brook Park and is it REALLY that much of a loss for Cleveland?

When it comes to loss of foot traffic and sales taxes, yes it really is a loss for Cleveland. 

Whether Jimmy builds a "Joe Thomas Bar and Grille" for people to pregame at or not, he will also have tons of eateries INSIDE the stadium like Rocket Mortgage. As long as fans are eating at Jimmy's rented out space or stadium restaurant, he succeeds in the objective of corralling all those restaurant patrons into his space. 

4 hours ago, snakebite said:

Good little lapdogs will be rewarded with their free studio space at Disneyland I'm sure as part of the pillaging of tenants from elsewhere in the region.

I just think alot of these sports talking heads are like the majority of NEO and prioritize whether they can drive and park their in a giant parking lot, and like the majority of NEO, really couldnt care less about the center city. 

Excuse me for being a dumb piece of s**t and not reading this thread all the way back to 2006 to get my answer.

 

 

But what happened to the great plains of parking lots and barely-in-use-buildings that make up the large lot of city blocks in and around downtown?

 

 

I get they would need to buy out some owners, but the city could have went to bat using the ole faithful eminent domain.

 

 

Controversial but with browns backing I don't think a parking lot owner and a barely in operation warehouse would have much community rally behind it to oppose the elf.

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2024Aug 9 by TotalTransit