3 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

Most cities have this exact same mentality: KC, Buffalo, anywhere in Florida…the list goes on. Most people who call in to a sports radio talk show think any downtown is crime ridden and they want easy parking. This is not a Cleveland only phenomenon. 

And soon enough when the shine wears off, the same suburbanites will also make similar complaints about Brook Park. It'll begin with complaints about anti social behavior, probably just teenagers hanging around or a homeless person or two or a few drunks at bars or football games - the proximity to an RTA station will also be blamed for being too inviting to "undesirables". Then sprinkles of low level crime like shoplifting or a car theft. Eventually there will probably be an isolated one off stabbing or shooting and the same people will be overreacting calling Brook Park a no go zone, dangerous whatever it may be and that will be it and it'll be onto the next subsidized suburban development even further from the city on some brownfield. 

 

These things also happen Downtown and in any major city but the difference is Downtown is robust enough and has a diverse range of attractions that it can cope with these type of things. Brook Park outside football games will be completely reliant on flakey suburbanites who will just abandon it and move onto the next destination because beyond a football stadium there will be no reason to go there for things they can't do or get elsewhere. 

12 hours ago, TBideon said:

They sure aren't clamoring for Flats development.

I mean Wolstein passing (not too far after renderings were released for phase 3) and the George's, who are notorious for sitting on properties to milk them dry, took control of the largest piece of land down there so that definitely doesn't help. 

11 hours ago, snakebite said:

And soon enough when the shine wears off, the same suburbanites will also make similar complaints about Brook Park. It'll begin with complaints about anti social behavior, probably just teenagers hanging around or a homeless person or two or a few drunks at bars or football games - the proximity to an RTA station will also be blamed for being too inviting to "undesirables". Then sprinkles of low level crime like shoplifting or a car theft. Eventually there will probably be an isolated one off stabbing or shooting and the same people will be overreacting calling Brook Park a no go zone, dangerous whatever it may be and that will be it and it'll be onto the next subsidized suburban development even further from the city on some brownfield. 

 

I don't like the idea of Jimmyworld, but I feel this is extremely overplayed.

 

It's going to be private land, as soon as you cross into jimmyworld you'd be crossing into his domain. Unlike downtown or other areas he'd control everything within his compound. Not saying it'd prevent some of this stuff but he could put up a gate and screen everyone coming in and out if he wanted.

The grifters are both 70. A stadium of this scale and complication would take, what, 3-4 years? And there is probably at least another year of infrastructure improvements and related time-consuming requirements - RFPs, permits, licenses, biddings, freeway expansions(?), utilities, RTA-related(?) - before a shovel touches the ground.

 

And before we even get to that process, it'll probably be another year of posturing, even potential litigation, before we know where the stadium actually ends up, be it downtown, Brookpark, or a different state. JImmy may want Brookpark, but without financing locked in, he might as well want to fly the Enterprise. Same outcome. And then there's the 6-month Modell grace period for the Browns to seek new ownership.

 

Meanwhile time keeps going by, and the Haslems age. Hell, urbanohio ages. Christ, we'll still be arguing about Burke.

 

Even if a stadium is miraculously built by 2028-2030, the rest of Jimmyworld woun't be a concurrent build and would be part of some Phase 2-through whatever. So now two 75-year-olds are soliciting hotel chains, restaurants, bars, retail, theaters, Top Golfs, and various other attractions?

 

Is this really how Jimmy and Dee are going to spend their twilight years,  as mixed-use developers in a region they have no interest? They've been lying for 12 years about the Lakefront development plan; only now they're telling the truth?

 

A stadium MIGHT happen (god knows DeWine is the usual MAGA spineless billionaire-worshiper, and I don't have much faith in Cuyahoga hustler politicians). And that's all Jimmy/Dee really wants. Which sucks, but i don't see hotels and restaurants in Cleveland seeing any competion beyond perhaps a single bar or restaurant built along with stadium. In five or six years.

 

Edited August 14, 2024Aug 14 by TBideon

alright, this has crossed into ridiculous pontification

27 minutes ago, TBideon said:

The grifters are both 70. A stadium of this scale and complication would take, what, 3-4 years? And there is probably at least another year of infrastructure improvements and related time-consuming requirements - RFPs, permits, licenses, biddings, freeway expansions(?), utilities, RTA-related(?) - before a shovel touches the ground.

 

And before we even get to that process, it'll probably be another year of posturing, even potential litigation, before we know where the stadium actually ends up, be it downtown, Brookpark, or a different state. JImmy may want Brookpark, but without financing locked in, he might as well want to fly the Enterprise. Same outcome. And then there's the 6-month Modell grace period for the Browns to seek new ownership.

 

Meanwhile time keeps going by, and the Haslems age. Hell, urbanohio ages. Christ, we'll still be arguing about Burke.

 

Even if a stadium is miraculously built by 2028-2030, the rest of Jimmyworld woun't be a concurrent build and would be part of some Phase 2-through whatever. So now two 75-year-olds are soliciting hotel chains, restaurants, bars, retail, theaters, Top Golfs, and various other attractions?

 

Is this really how Jimmy and Dee are going to spend their twilight years,  as mixed-use developers in a region they have no interest? They've been lying for 12 years about the Lakefront development plan; only now they're telling the truth?

 

A stadium MIGHT happen (god knows DeWine is the usual MAGA spineless billionaire-worshiper), and I don't have much faith in Cuyahoga hustler politicians). And that's all Jimmy/Dee really wants. Which sucks, but i don't see the hotels and restaurants in Cleveland seeing any competion beyond perhaps a single bar or restaurant built along with stadium. In five or six years.

 

With a new enclosed facility the team could be worth billions more by the time the facility is built. I heard today that the value is currently over 5 billion. 

Edited August 14, 2024Aug 14 by dski44

17 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

alright, this has crossed into ridiculous pontification

Which part? I get there's a glib tone, but I think I broke things down fairly rationally.

9 minutes ago, dski44 said:

With a new enclosed facility the team could be worth a billions more by the time the facility is built. I heard today that the value is currently over 5 billion. 

Seems like sufficient valuation for a stadium mortgage.  

 

The NFL really should have a revolving fund for funding stadium projects that owners can tap into.

 

But barring either of those options, I think the city made quite a fair and generous offer and I hope they stick to that level of local contribution.  If the Haslams can get state money on top of it, more power to them.

For reference, Minnesota Vikings stadium:

In May of 2012, the Minneapolis City Council and the Minnesota Legislature approved the $975 million funding for the stadium...

In August 2016, NFL’s Minnesota Vikings played their first game...

 

https://elysianbuilt.com/minnesota-vikings-stadium-construction/

And with team ambassadors like Hall and Watson, who wouldn't want to give the team a 10-figure check.

I'm surprised at the lack of renderings we are seeing of what a $1B+ lakefront renovation could look like.  It just doesn't seem like a fair fight without it. Jacksonville approved a  $1.4B renovation and their stadium is older than ours.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-city-of-jacksonville-approve-agreement-to-build-1-4-billion-stadium-of-the-future/   

 

If people could visually see that we can get something like this on the lakefront I think a lot of people would change their mind about Brookpark.

 

Edited August 14, 2024Aug 14 by TDi

10 minutes ago, TDi said:

I'm surprised at the lack of renderings we are seeing of what a $1B+ lakefront renovation could look like.  It just doesn't seem like a fair fight without it. Jacksonville approved a  $1.4B renovation and their stadium is older than ours.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-city-of-jacksonville-approve-agreement-to-build-1-4-billion-stadium-of-the-future/   

 

If people could visually see that we can get something like this on the lakefront I think a lot of people would change their mind about Brookpark.

Idk if/when we will see Browns lakefront renderings, but that's what I'm hoping to achieve with my project in Random Vis thread so we can at least see something

Edited August 14, 2024Aug 14 by Geowizical

32 minutes ago, TDi said:

I'm surprised at the lack of renderings we are seeing of what a $1B+ lakefront renovation could look like.  It just doesn't seem like a fair fight without it. Jacksonville approved a  $1.4B renovation and their stadium is older than ours.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-city-of-jacksonville-approve-agreement-to-build-1-4-billion-stadium-of-the-future/   

 

If people could visually see that we can get something like this on the lakefront I think a lot of people would change their mind about Brookpark.

 

 

Blaine was on 92.3 this morning and mentioned he's seen renderings - someone with time should FOIA his email haha.

City responds to Brown's questions. https://fox8.com/sports/browns-stadium-latest-city-officials-respond-to-team-request-for-more-info/

2 hours ago, dski44 said:

With a new enclosed facility the team could be worth billions more by the time the facility is built. I heard today that the value is currently over 5 billion. 

Valuation increase is my line of thinking too. He will get as much public money as he can, either for Brook Park or the Lakefront, and sell the team for $7+ billion whenever either stadium is done.

 

They already sold Pilot Flying J, and will probably just sell parts of the Haslam Sports group off over time. 

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

Blaine was on 92.3 this morning and mentioned he's seen renderings - someone with time should FOIA his email haha.

 

Blaine also floated the idea of being willing to listen to the idea of a land swap with Brook Park.   Interesting timing in saying that over the airways.

7 hours ago, TDi said:

I'm surprised at the lack of renderings we are seeing of what a $1B+ lakefront renovation could look like.  It just doesn't seem like a fair fight without it. Jacksonville approved a  $1.4B renovation and their stadium is older than ours.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-city-of-jacksonville-approve-agreement-to-build-1-4-billion-stadium-of-the-future/   

 

If people could visually see that we can get something like this on the lakefront I think a lot of people would change their mind about Brookpark.

 

Your missing the sea of parking lot asphalt surrounding the stadium suburbanites and, especially Jimmy want

Browns fans are energized because the team is finally halfway decent. But how appealing is the Brookpark stadium going to be, by itself, as the Browns reel off a string of 3-5 win seasons? 

Gov. Mike DeWine met with Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam to discuss Brook Park stadium proposal

 

Mayor Justin Bibb and Cuyahoga County Executive Chris Ronayne visited the governor’s residence the next day in Columbus to discuss their desire that the team stay on the lakefront.

 

 

https://signalcleveland.org/gov-mike-dewine-met-with-browns-owners-jimmy-and-dee-haslam-to-discuss-brook-park-stadium-proposal/

 

 

Let the arm twisting begin.

On 8/12/2024 at 12:50 PM, marty15 said:

Should the Browns move to Brookpark, would it be feasible to just downsize CBS to a soccer stadium? Demo the upper deck and the ramps. Construct a roof over the seating area. Limit it to around 25k capacity. Everything else is still in place. Locker rooms, luxury suites, etc.

I did some basic Google Earth measuring, but this seems very possible. They would need to straighten out the rounded portions of the stands near the endzones to make them as wide as the 50 yard line area. Those end sections are currently about 220 feet wide, 50 yard line is about 260. Columbus and Cincy both have their seat to seat widths at about 250-260. 

 

I can't find a level by level breakdown for number of seats, but found a Plain Dealer article from 1997 saying the lower bowl would have 21,750 seats. The above changes would probably put it closer to 20k. Keep the 200 level suites, and maybe even some of the club seats on the north side. Put a nice awning over it, and we've got ourselves a nice 25k seat soccer stadium to be the centerpiece for the lakefront development. With a stadium of that size, it would allow for the Muni Lot to be developed as well. 

 

THEN PLEASE MAKE THE SEATS DARK GREEN AND NAME THE TEAMS FOREST CITY FOOTBALL CLUB FCFC.

 

With those colors, CSU can also feel at home in the stadium. So between the NWSL, MLS Next?, CSU mens and women's soccer, CSU lacrosse, and some other local soccer/lacrosse/football/rugby games, you could easily use the stadium 70+ days a year. Partner with the Rock Hall and have some 20k capacity concerts, festivals, and other events as well. 

Mayor of BrookPark says stadium is not a priority. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mayor-of-brook-park-says-desired-new-stadium-is-not-a-priority-right-now/ar-AA1oOAdy?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=2a60d5e62a7e4b5ba0daa59edf5c8f1a&ei=21

^ Definitely sounds like a guy who has NOT yet received a duffel bag full of cash. 

The fine print: Bibb’s Cleveland Browns stadium offer isn’t anywhere close to the 50/50 split the Haslams want, while putting general fund at risk

 

By Courtney Astolfi, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Mayor Justin Bibb’s proposed financing plan for renovations at city-owned Cleveland Browns stadium isn’t what it appears to be.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2024/08/the-fine-print-bibbs-cleveland-browns-stadium-offer-isnt-anywhere-close-to-the-5050-split-the-haslams-want-while-putting-general-fund-at-risk.html

Edited August 15, 2024Aug 15 by GISguy

34 minutes ago, GISguy said:

The fine print: Bibb’s Cleveland Browns stadium offer isn’t anywhere close to the 50/50 split the Haslams want, while putting general fund at risk

 

By Courtney Astolfi, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Mayor Justin Bibb’s proposed financing plan for renovations at city-owned Cleveland Browns stadium isn’t what it appears to be.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2024/08/the-fine-print-bibbs-cleveland-browns-stadium-offer-isnt-anywhere-close-to-the-5050-split-the-haslams-want-while-putting-general-fund-at-risk.html

But wait a minute - Bibb's Offer plus County plus state will be closer to 500m +.  This could end up at 550m

On 8/14/2024 at 11:28 AM, TDi said:

I'm surprised at the lack of renderings we are seeing of what a $1B+ lakefront renovation could look like.  It just doesn't seem like a fair fight without it. Jacksonville approved a  $1.4B renovation and their stadium is older than ours.  https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jaguars-city-of-jacksonville-approve-agreement-to-build-1-4-billion-stadium-of-the-future/   

 

If people could visually see that we can get something like this on the lakefront I think a lot of people would change their mind about Brookpark.

 

Gee -- why WOULD the Haslams want to show off the Brook Park renderings but not the lakefront renovation plans?!?  (I'm not surprised.)

3 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

I did some basic Google Earth measuring, but this seems very possible.

Surprisingly, soccer field dimensions are not set in stone, but 70 yards wide is the minimum, so CBS would definitely fit a pro soccer field.  In fact CBS has hosted several soccer matches in the past.

 

I love this idea.  Ironically, a shorter stadium could probably even include a dome!

 

(and heck yeah, paint those seats green for FCFC!)

 

 

21 hours ago, marty15 said:

Browns fans are energized because the team is finally halfway decent. But how appealing is the Brookpark stadium going to be, by itself, as the Browns reel off a string of 3-5 win seasons? 

I bet if people dont have to sit in sub zero temperatures they would go to those games..    I know i would go then, but i wont sit in the cold anymore..  Why would anyone want to

27 minutes ago, G00pie said:

I bet if people dont have to sit in sub zero temperatures they would go to those games..    I know i would go then, but i wont sit in the cold anymore..  Why would anyone want to

I guess you can ask thousands of people in Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, New England, New York, twice, Philadelphia, Kansas City and Denver.

7 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I guess you can ask thousands of people in Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, New England, New York, twice, Philadelphia, Kansas City and Denver.

 

This was the game that got delayed by a day last year due to the January snowstorm, it was hovering in the 20s with windchills in the single digits it was a great time:

 

 

4 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

This was the game that got delayed by a day last year due to the January snowstorm, it was hovering in the 20s with windchills in the single digits it was a great time:

 

 

Cold games are normally the most memorable. And, what an advnatage we will have when Miami comes here at the end of the season for a night game.

Edited August 15, 2024Aug 15 by dski44

Obviously, I understand why a large portion of those attending games prefer domes, especially in very hot or very cold climates (Duh).  I personally prefer open air stadiums.  I guess I could go for a retractable dome if it has a huge opening and there are tons of windows along the sides of the stadium with commanding views.  I just would hate sitting in a mausoleum during a beautiful sunny Sept or October Sunday and would trade the discomfort of 5-6 three hour games toward the end of the season for those wonderful fall days.  I also enjoy that rare experience when the weather is really horrible.  It is sort of an event you remember your whole life and rehash over and over at the dinner table.  I still get a lot of milage out of relating to the young folks in the family what if was like to be in Municipal stadium for that 1981 playoff game with the Raiders.

11 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Obviously, I understand why a large portion of those attending games prefer domes, especially in very hot or very cold climates (Duh).  I personally prefer open air stadiums.  I guess I could go for a retractable dome if it has a huge opening and there are tons of windows along the sides of the stadium with commanding views.  I just would hate sitting in a mausoleum during a beautiful sunny Sept or October Sunday and would trade the discomfort of 5-6 three hour games toward the end of the season for those wonderful fall days.  I also enjoy that rare experience when the weather is really horrible.  It is sort of an event you remember your whole life and rehash over and over at the dinner table.  I still get a lot of milage out of relating to the young folks in the family what if was like to be in Municipal stadium for that 1981 playoff game with the Raiders.

 

I went to Detroit for the bills browns game and it felt weird, like being in a movie theater weird...hanging out in a t watching a game in December. It also felt like a Warehouse to be honest. 

 

I think with climate change in mind, it won't be as cold and harsh as it is today in 30+ years anyways. 

 

Fwiw the new bills stadium may be open air but 80% or so of the seats are covered. 

On 8/14/2024 at 8:01 PM, marty15 said:

Browns fans are energized because the team is finally halfway decent. But how appealing is the Brookpark stadium going to be, by itself, as the Browns reel off a string of 3-5 win seasons? 

 

A TRUE, SEASONED BROWNS FAN YOU ARE !!!!  😂

 

not sure if this is the most recent bills stadium render, i think so? but anyway just an fyi ...

 

more:

https://www.buffalobills.com/photos/second-set-of-new-bills-stadium-renderings#8f07079f-0427-4ea3-87ea-3e5d50019a9a

 

Not exactly Disneyland, is it. The taxpayers are sure getting their money's worth.

At least it's an honest rendering of what the complex will look like- a sports palace surrounded by a bunch of parking only.  This is what Brookpark will end up looking like, except way less attractive of a setting.

yeah, they should build the news browns stadium outside of prettier medina.

 

or better yet, richfield. 😂

Or, and hear me out, where there already is a stadium and has been, in some incarnation, since 1931.

 

Interesting he mentions a downtown dome is possible 

Edited August 16, 2024Aug 16 by BoomerangCleRes

11 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Interesting he mentions a downtown done is possible 

Even more interesting is when he described the renderings with a mostly enclosed roof and activated ground floor. 

Unfortunately, Cleveland is driven very much by its past. The past has nothing to do with where a stadium for the future should be. I say this as a history nut -- the past causes us to be prejudicial about things that we should measure via a balance sheet including opportunity costs.

 

Doing the next thing "because that's how we've always done it" is the most direct route to obsolescence.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

Unfortunately, Cleveland is driven very much by its past. The past has nothing to do with where a stadium for the future should be. I say this as a history nut -- the past causes us to be prejudicial about things that we should measure via a balance sheet including opportunity costs.

 

Doing the next thing "because that's how we've always done it" is the most direct route to obsolescence.

This. This. This. 

There is so much misinformation out there on the Brookpark proposal right now. From people saying they heard the Haslams are paying for the entire thing to Daryl on 92.3 this morning saying the Haslams are covering all costs for the surrounding development as well.  I think once the true numbers come out and the renderings of what a lakefront renovation could look like get released the public perception will start to sway towards it and the Haslams know that hence why they are taking so long to release them. 

 

 

15 hours ago, dski44 said:

Cold games are normally the most memorable. And, what an advnatage we will have when Miami comes here at the end of the season for a night game.

 

This was a DIII playoff game in 2003 when I was in grad school, and my first major snow storm coming from New Orleans, and I loved watching every minute of it.

 

I'm not even a Browns fan, but if there's a game forecasted to get snow, I'm getting tickets.

 

Edited August 16, 2024Aug 16 by daybreaker

16 minutes ago, TDi said:

There is so much misinformation out there on the Brookpark proposal right now. From people saying they heard the Haslams are paying for the entire thing to Daryl on 92.3 this morning saying the Haslams are covering all costs for the surrounding development as well.  I think once the true numbers come out and the renderings of what a lakefront renovation could look like get released the public perception will start to sway towards it and the Haslams know that hence why they are taking so long to release them. 

 

 

 

The Haslam's are currently only seeking public financing for half the cost of the stadium. I expect that if/when they get to the surrounding developments they will come back asking for additional subsidies, but I wouldn't call it misinformation to say they are planning to finance the remaining $1B in surrounding development. 

1 hour ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Interesting he mentions a downtown dome is possible 

I think I may still have my "build the dome" button from the 1970's.  Ironically, if that dome had been built, it would have been replaced by now.

17 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

The Haslam's are currently only seeking public financing for half the cost of the stadium. I expect that if/when they get to the surrounding developments they will come back asking for additional subsidies, but I wouldn't call it misinformation to say they are planning to finance the remaining $1B in surrounding development. 

Maybe misinformation was the wrong wording but so far the Haslams have only committed $1.2B for the $3.6B project shown in the videos.  So to me saying that they are covering any more than $1.2B feels incorrect for anyone to say at the moment.

Edited August 16, 2024Aug 16 by TDi

15 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

I think I may still have my "build the dome" button from the 1970's.  Ironically, if that dome had been built, it would have been replaced by now.

Was that the one Modell wanted to build in the warehouse district where SHW is?  What a horrible idea that was.  It would have destroyed the urban fabric.  At the time, nobody thought that way in Cleveland.  If somebody wanted to build something new in downtown Cleveland at the time it was simply "thank God".  I guess to a certain extent it is still that way, but at least a little more thought goes into projects these days.