12 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

Fun fact: the guy I bought my house from was leaving Cleveland (following the Progressive Field renovations) to go to Jacksonville to lead the rebuild there. 

I guess you're the heir-apparent to lead the Huntington Bank Field renovations.  Just don't forget to include the Deshaun Watson massage room, located right next to the bank vault in sub-basement E3.   😐

10 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I guess you're the heir-apparent to lead the Huntington Bank Field renovations.  Just don't forget to include the Deshaun Watson massage room, located right next to the bank vault in sub-basement E3.   😐

 

thought this was an interesting shake up, their sports teams contributed 40$ million imagine that 

21 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

 

thought this was an interesting shake up, their sports teams contributed 40$ million imagine that 

Such a beautiful skyline but have so many empty buildings. This is one area where we are ahead of Pittsburgh. Notable, at least their Governor is working hand in hand with Pittsburgh leaders. Can you imagine if DeWine would support the dome downtown with Governor Shapiro’s enthusiasm rather than for his BFF’s BP vanity project. I also love their motto: Pittsburgh’s Future Starts Downtown. While we some how are being forced to swallow and like Cleveland’s Future Starts in Brook Park. Sabotage?  We need to secede from this State and append to Pennsylvania to get State leadership we deserve.

4 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

thought this was an interesting shake up, their sports teams contributed 40$ million imagine that 

 

Not quite correct:

A broad coalition of private sector leaders and regional foundations have committed more than $40 million — and counting — in additional funding for this plan, including partners like BNY; Dollar Bank; Duquesne Light Company; Federated Hermes; FNB Bank; Giant Eagle; Highmark; Pitt Ohio; PNC Bank; PPG Industries; Reed Smith; Buchanan Ingersoll & Rooney PC; K&L Gates; the Buhl Foundation; the Eden Hall Foundation; the Heinz Endowments; the Hillman Foundation; the Jewish Healthcare Foundation; the Pittsburgh Steelers; the Pittsburgh Pirates; and the Pittsburgh Penguins.

I wasn't sure if this was posted before but here is the development at SoFi stadium that it seems like the Haslam's are imitating. https://www.hollywoodparkca.com/

 

It's not that impressive--a few hotels, retail and restaurants, although they can add more in the future. I do notice they have a separate 6,000-seat concert hall in the stadium, though, which caught my eye. I don't know if the Browns are thinking something similar but that would definitely compete with Playhouse Square, etc. for concerts, comedy, etc. It's sort of hard to compare these places, though, since LA is clearly on another level in terms of population size, wealth, access to the entertainment industry and ample programming options.

 

I wonder what Bibb and Ronanye are hearing from the Cavs, Guardians, Playhouse Square, etc. There has been a lot of focus on government support but those private players also have vested interest in downtown.

Edited October 31, 2024Oct 31 by coneflower

Paywalled, but interesting that the AG is backing the City of Cleveland in this. I wonder if this changes the tone of anything on the radio.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/2024/10/ohio-ag-seeks-to-intervene-in-cleveland-browns-lawsuit-over-modell-law-says-team-is-wrong.html

1 hour ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

Paywalled, but interesting that the AG is backing the City of Cleveland in this. I wonder if this changes the tone of anything on the radio.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/2024/10/ohio-ag-seeks-to-intervene-in-cleveland-browns-lawsuit-over-modell-law-says-team-is-wrong.html

Can't read the article, but seeing as the state, and the DOT in particular, would likely be on the hook for millions of dollars in addition to any domed stadium contribution it makes sense why they'd oppose it. 

 

Edit:

Non paywalled version:

 

https://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-ag-wants-to-intervene-in-cleveland-browns-lawsuit/

 

It looks like the primary started reason is defending the constitutionality of the law. 

13 minutes ago, Ethan said:

Can't read the article, but seeing as the state, and the DOT in particular, would likely be on the hook for millions of dollars in addition to any domed stadium contribution it makes sense why they'd oppose it. 

 

Edit:

Non paywalled version:

 

https://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-ag-wants-to-intervene-in-cleveland-browns-lawsuit/

 

It looks like the primary started reason is defending the constitutionality of the law. 

I’m curious as to what scale of interchange upgrades ODOT would have to make so as not to completely paralyze 480 & 71 every time there’s a game/event there.

Nice Explanation by channel 19 by what Yost is trying to accomplish by intervening.

 

https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/10/31/state-ohio-seeks-intervene-browns-plans-move-brook-park/

 

Are there any lawyers out there?  For now i think this favors the city of cleveland. or am i wrong?

Channel 3 Story:

 

"In the Columbus Crew example, then-Attorney General (Mike) DeWine started with an initial letter reminding the teams that they have an obligation to follow [Ohio] Revised Code 9.67. About three months later, he followed up with a lawsuit asking the court to compel compliance with the law," Griffin explained. "So here in Cleveland, we would similarly move forward with a letter and then, if there is not compliance with the law, we'd ask a court to intervene."

With the Crew, the previous owners were trying to move the team to another state, and they wanted to do it in the middle of their stadium lease. The Haslams want to move the Browns to a different suburb within Greater Cleveland, and they don't plan to do it until their current stadium lease is up at the end of 2028. 

The city of Cleveland doesn't seem to think that matters

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/browns/cleveland-browns-lawsuit-modell-law-ohio-attorney-general-dave-yost-intervene-domed-stadium-brook-park-haslam-sports-group/95-40ac2f96-63e9-41c4-90e9-4ef67bae8c06

 

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

Nice Explanation by channel 19 by what Yost is trying to accomplish by intervening.

 

https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/10/31/state-ohio-seeks-intervene-browns-plans-move-brook-park/

 

Are there any lawyers out there?  For now i think this favors the city of cleveland. or am i wrong?

not a lawyer either - but we can assume the Courts could split the relatively novel Modell law baby either way.  All we are certain of is if it goes against Jimmy they consider the 6 month clock to have started already.  Also, not sure if it only applies to moves out of market or out of state but a simple layman's reading of ORC Section 9.67 seems to only find the term "elsewhere" not out of market or state.  Maybe there is some preamble language  that would guide a judge on the legislative intent - if not we are lucky the author Dennis Kucinich is available as testify as SME? Is Kucinich ready to slay Goliath again as he did as boy mayor with nemesis Cleveland Trust Brock Weir(or similar name ?) on behalf of Muny Light. Sounds like he has one more fight in him?

 https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/10/dennis-kucinich-threatens-taxpayer-lawsuit-if-city-wont-invoke-modell-law-to-block-browns-move.html

 

 https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-9.67

 

Edited November 1, 2024Nov 1 by Willo

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

Channel 3 Story:

 

"In the Columbus Crew example, then-Attorney General (Mike) DeWine started with an initial letter reminding the teams that they have an obligation to follow [Ohio] Revised Code 9.67. About three months later, he followed up with a lawsuit asking the court to compel compliance with the law," Griffin explained. "So here in Cleveland, we would similarly move forward with a letter and then, if there is not compliance with the law, we'd ask a court to intervene."

With the Crew, the previous owners were trying to move the team to another state, and they wanted to do it in the middle of their stadium lease. The Haslams want to move the Browns to a different suburb within Greater Cleveland, and they don't plan to do it until their current stadium lease is up at the end of 2028. 

The city of Cleveland doesn't seem to think that matters

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/browns/cleveland-browns-lawsuit-modell-law-ohio-attorney-general-dave-yost-intervene-domed-stadium-brook-park-haslam-sports-group/95-40ac2f96-63e9-41c4-90e9-4ef67bae8c06

 

Yes is very interesting which side DeWine will take.  In the Crew fight it was obvious DeWine thought it was solid - at least as noted in the Columbus Monthly 2019 play by play on how Columbus and Statehouse apparent whisperer Alex R. Fischer (who wrote the Crain piece this week on Saint Jimmy) and Jimmy and Dee Haslam saved the Crew for Columbus. 

https://www.columbusmonthly.com/story/lifestyle/2019/04/02/the-improbable-salvation-columbus-crew/5392947007/

For example:  “…One morning in early December 2017, Fischer got a phone call while driving down Riverside Drive. It was Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine, who’d been studying an obscure state law—Ohio Revised Code 9.67, the “Art Modell law,” passed in 1996 after Modell moved the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore—at the urging of then-Ohio Rep. Mike Duffey. It prevents teams that play home games in tax-supported facilities from moving out of Ohio without first allowing locals six months to purchase the team. DeWine, who is now governor, determined there was a clear violation of the law. It had never been tested, but he believes it’s constitutional. “People are on notice when they take money or take a benefit from the state of Ohio,” he says.

He wanted to know if a lawsuit would help or hurt Fischer’s efforts. Fischer reasoned that Franklin County Common Pleas judges are elected officials, thus a case pitting locals against a New York sports commissioner and a San Francisco trust-fund kid stood a good chance. So on Dec. 7, 2017, DeWine released a letter warning Precourt about the Modell law. And on March 5, 2018, days before the Crew’s home opener, DeWine and Columbus City Attorney Zach Klein jointly sued PSV and MLS…

 

https://fox8.com/news/proposed-paycor-dome-could-cost-around-1-billion/

 

It's funny to see Cincinnati getting ready just in case the state gives Jimmy a ton of state money for Brook Park. I'd be doing the same thing if I were them. 

 

As discussed before, a dome in Brook Park would already be behind Detroit, Indy, Minneapolis, and a new Chicago dome in the Midwest for large events due to proximity to hotel density and other amenities. Even Nashville is close enough with their new dome too. But if Cincy ends up building a dome over Paycor, Jimmy's $2.5 billion dome wouldn't even be the top choice in Ohio. 

Edited November 1, 2024Nov 1 by PlanCleveland
Typo

Ah yes, we the hardworking people of Ohio shall spend $2B+ in taxpayer funds in the hopes that one of our fair cities shall get a Wrestlemania or Monster Jam World Finals.

1 minute ago, coneflower said:

Ah yes, we the hardworking people of Ohio shall spend $2B+ in taxpayer funds in the hopes that one of our fair cities shall get a Wrestlemania or Monster Jam World Finals.

 

Every city of note in the Roman Empire had a Coliseum...

I think the AG intervention is a pretty big deal. More from a political perspective than a legal perspective. 

 

The constitutionality of 9.67 is pretty unclear to me (I'm not a constitutional expert). It's not obvious to me that it is unconstitutional, but the arguments against it are very good and reasonable. It's the kind of case that could potentially go to the Supreme Court. We really haven't had many dormant commerce (dormant commerce is about states discriminating against or burdening interstate commerce essentially) cases in the last decade, and so I think the views of the four newest justices are to be determined to a large extent. But regardless, the state AG intervening doesn't necessarily change the basic legal picture in a meaningful way.

 

But from a political perspective, the AG's intervention suggests that some substantial part of the Republican apparatus in Columbus may be seriously unhappy with what Jimmy is doing. It was not previously obvious to me that this is the case, since Jimmy is pretty aligned with Republicans generally. Yost has been a fixture in Columbus for more than a decade, and (while I don't know him personally) I think it's very unlikely that he's out on a limb here doing something that all his Republican colleagues in Columbus disagree with. This suggests Jimmy may have an uphill battle in terms of getting the state to contribute to funding for Brook Park--which is a big deal in my mind.

16 hours ago, marty15 said:

I’m curious as to what scale of interchange upgrades ODOT would have to make so as not to completely paralyze 480 & 71 every time there’s a game/event there.

 

I bet Jimmy is banking on the airport upgrade/construction aligning with the stadium build. There's substantial roadwork involved in most of the airport proposals. 

1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said:

https://fox8.com/news/proposed-paycor-dome-could-cost-around-1-billion/

 

It's funny to see Cincinnati getting ready just in case the state gives Jimmy a ton of state money for Brook Park. I'd be doing the same thing if I were them. 

 

As discussed before, a dome in Brook Park would already be behind Detroit, Indy, Minneapolis, and a new Chicago dome in the Midwest for large events due to proximity to hotel density and other amenities. Even Nashville is close enough with their new dome too. But if Cincy ends up building a dome over Paycor, Jimmy's $2.5 billion dome wouldn't even be the top choice in Ohio. 

A blind man could have seen the Bengals wanting a Dome if the Browns got one. They weren't going to settle for a piecemeal renovation compared to a newly built dome and then also the separate subsequent allegations of favoritism if Cleveland gets double the money for it's stadium compared to Cincinnati. Two teams wanting domed stadiums at the same time paid for by the public is just a huge headache and I don't care how many political campaigns the ownership is bankrolling, good luck justifying that and making the numbers add up.

8 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Every city of note in the Roman Empire had a Coliseum...

They also didn't have tv or the internet 

Brown's lawsuit could drag out. ttps://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-browns-lawsuit-against-cle-could-drag-out/

4 hours ago, 17thState said:

They also didn't have tv or the internet 

 

Neither of which makes you feel like you're part of something greater than yourself. 

6 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Neither of which makes you feel like you're part of something greater than yourself. 

Well, I know of a photo taken on a lunch break that was uploaded to a small site on the internet that ended up opening 128 episodes of an award-winning TV show in 170 different countries, but I know - that's not the topic here. 😉😁 

 

Getting sort of back to the topic - we're seeing the whole "flight to quality" play out with commercial office buildings where everything has to have all the accoutrements and be the "shiny new object". Anything perceived as "less than" is going to be right-sized, repurposed, or razed - or relocated; why should sports complexes be exempt? 🤷‍♂️

21 hours ago, KJP said:

Every city of note in the Roman Empire had a Coliseum...

But none rivaled Rome itself.

Thankfully, we already have a bunch of coliseums. All these events they are talking about getting already come here—just not the final event/championship or whatever. People point to Taylor Swift as a concert tour we missed—she played many open-air stadiums including Pittsburgh and Cincy. There was more to her decision than the building itself, clearly. My point is I don’t think it’s worth billions to get maybe 1 new dome-required event a year. Imagine all these things we could do that would be more impactful for the future of our region with that money. 

 

I know this has been well-tread territory but it keeps getting lost as the Browns have been successful at getting most everyone on board to spending a bunch of money without discussing whether it is worth it. 

14 hours ago, 17thState said:

They also didn't have tv or the internet 

and they had public baths as we too will soon have. Check that box. Now bring on the domed Burke Coliseum (or covered current stadium).

Has anyone suggested putting the dome stadium just west of the existing stadium.  I think that would solve both parties.

Browns stadium stuff in the Lakefront Developments thread

 

 

City needs more time to respond. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-cleveland-wants-more-time-to-answer-browns-lawsuit/

You'd think they'd have some language already researched and drafted. It isn't like this suit is a surprise.

 

 

15 hours ago, simplythis said:

City needs more time to respond. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-cleveland-wants-more-time-to-answer-browns-lawsuit/

Smart and sensible move on behalf of ther citizens to get the response as strong as possible as it is becoming more and more obvious the Haslams and their slick HSG attorneys have had their surprise relocation announcement, legal filings and non-stop PR campaign, planned and gamed out for quite some time - all the while the city and county assumed they were engaged in good faith negotiations.  Now that the city and county finally know what and who they have been dealing with they deserve the time to pivot and respond in kind.

Mayor Bibb and Executive Ronayne good luck and please don't let us down!

15 hours ago, simplythis said:

City needs more time to respond. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-cleveland-wants-more-time-to-answer-browns-lawsuit/

 

40 minutes ago, TBideon said:

You'd think they'd have some language already researched and drafted. It isn't like this suit is a surprise.

 

 

Seeking leave to plead to a complaint or a preliminary motion is common practice.  In fact I would say it is the procedure in 99% of all lawsuits.  In addition, leaves to responds (to pretrial motions and the like as a matter proceeds to trial) are also common.  In fact it is the rare instance in my experience where an opposing side does not move for leave or additional time when faced with a motion.  The timeframes to respond under the civil rules are not that generous and it is not like this is the only matter the lawyers are handling (a common reason given when a lawyer asks for leave).  This is no big deal although the headline seems to portray it as such (did not bother to read the article).

23 minutes ago, Willo said:

Smart and sensible move on behalf of ther citizens to get the response as strong as possible as it is becoming more and more obvious the Haslams and their slick HSG attorneys have had their surprise relocation announcement, legal filings and non-stop PR campaign, planned and gamed out for quite some time - all the while the city and county assumed they were engaged in good faith negotiations.  Now that the city and county finally know what and who they have been dealing with they deserve the time to pivot and respond in kind.

Mayor Bibb and Executive Ronayne good luck and please don't let us down!

My question then is what would the city and county's actual end goal be.

 

Compelling a sale to another billionaire in six months (as of...[date]) who would commit to the current site? 

6 hours ago, TBideon said:

My question then is what would the city and county's actual end goal be.

 

Compelling a sale to another billionaire in six months (as of...[date]) who would commit to the current site? 

I will defer to Bibb and Ronayne on their end game but I am sure it remains to convince the Haslams to do what's right and recommit to the city in any form - ideally Burke but we are opened minded as would be expected in any true negotiation (this appears to be one-side to date).  Bottom line? The Vocon concepts had us all at hello - why not the Haslams/HSG too?  They say Columbus is now a world class city because of their effforts there - now do the same for Cleveland. 

btw...to a small extent we curious to see the elusive Haslam renderings for the lakefront that were nixed somehow for the ill-conceived and short-sighted BP concept sketches (just like the Deshaun Watson gambit).  They may really be trying to package the Browns for a % sale to new partners as they follow other Bazillionaires in pursuit of the mulit-club ownership (MCO) trend around the world.  He just bought 25% of the NBA Bucks and word on the street is they want the Blue-Jackets for their portfolio next - but who knows?  Either way...We just want our team in our city. Period. Then leave us and future generations alone to enjoy the Browns - good or bad on-the-field performances.

54 minutes ago, Willo said:

I will defer to Bibb and Ronayne on their end game but I am sure it remains to convince the Haslams to do what's right and recommit to the city in any form - ideally Burke but we are opened minded as would be expected in any true negotiation (this appears to be one-side to date).  Bottom line? The Vocon concepts had us all at hello - why not the Haslams/HSG too?  They say Columbus is now a world class city because of their effforts there - now do the same for Cleveland. 

btw...to a small extent we curious to see the elusive Haslam renderings for the lakefront that were nixed somehow for the ill-conceived and short-sighted BP concept sketches (just like the Deshaun Watson gambit).  They may really be trying to package the Browns for a % sale to new partners as they follow other Bazillionaires in pursuit of the mulit-club ownership (MCO) trend around the world.  He just bought 25% of the NBA Bucks and word on the street is they want the Blue-Jackets for their portfolio next - but who knows?  Either way...We just want our team in our city. Period. Then leave us and future generations alone to enjoy the Browns - good or bad on-the-field performances.

I get all that. 

 

But, realistically, what do Bibb, et all, hope to achieve? Jimmy wants a dome and to control the surrounding assets before he dies; I can't stand the guy, but at least he hasn't been shy about it, and the current location and Burke can't provide both. Jimmy isn't looking to be a good Cleveland steward; he is looking to max his investment.

 

The city and county took their shot, and it missed. But playing games for political and reelection points is a waste of time and resources and brain cells.

45 minutes ago, TBideon said:

I get all that. 

 

But, realistically, what do Bibb, et all, hope to achieve? Jimmy wants a dome and to control the surrounding assets before he dies; I can't stand the guy, but at least he hasn't been shy about it, and the current location and Burke can't provide both. Jimmy isn't looking to be a good Cleveland steward; he is looking to max his investment.

 

The city and county took their shot, and it missed. But playing games for political and reelection points is a waste of time and resources and brain cells.

We'll throw in the towel and pack it in when all parties say it is final. Until then all things are possible. We know it is the Cleveland way to think the worst immediatelyand gripe but we have to change our mental model as those in other successful cities do (many with less amenities than we have).  Also, we are not seeing Bibb or Ronayne playing games for reelection points at this still fluid stage. Plus they don't need to as we all agree Jimmy is a cartoon bad guy changing his positions with the wind.  In this situation we see Bibb/Ronayne will be held mostly harmless.  

jussst for the record ... 🙀

 

 

 

 

Bills’ new stadium costs balloon to $2.1 billion, $560 million over initial estimate, team tells AP

 

BY  JOHN WAWROW

Updated 7:00 PM EST, November 15, 2024

 

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (AP) — The projected cost of the Buffalo Bills’ new stadium has ballooned to what team officials on Friday told The Associated Press is “north of $2.1 billion,” with owners Terry and Kim Pegula responsible for picking up the more than $560 million in overruns.

 

Bills president Pete Guelli said he was not surprised by the amount, given how the numbers have been tracking up since construction began 16 months ago. And he said the projected total represents the commitment the Pegulas have to the community because they are sticking to their vision for the facility without cutting corners to reduce costs.

 

“To sum that up, the Pegulas will not deviate from building a best-in-class stadium in Buffalo,” Guelli said.

 

 

more:

https://apnews.com/article/bills-stadium-cost-pegula-8c56fad9d970f2b17429d3ae779f70ba

 

I would argue the optics of the Browns leaving again are bad for local leadership.

 

I'd also argue that Cleveland's refusal to accept and evolve from change has been a serious detriment to the region's health, and that stubbornness goes far beyond the Browns. 

 

We need to move on from this and take the loss.

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2024Nov 16 by TBideon

8 hours ago, mrnyc said:

jussst for the record ... 🙀

 

 

 

 

Bills’ new stadium costs balloon to $2.1 billion, $560 million over initial estimate, team tells AP

 

BY  JOHN WAWROW

Updated 7:00 PM EST, November 15, 2024

 

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (AP) — The projected cost of the Buffalo Bills’ new stadium has ballooned to what team officials on Friday told The Associated Press is “north of $2.1 billion,” with owners Terry and Kim Pegula responsible for picking up the more than $560 million in overruns.

 

Bills president Pete Guelli said he was not surprised by the amount, given how the numbers have been tracking up since construction began 16 months ago. And he said the projected total represents the commitment the Pegulas have to the community because they are sticking to their vision for the facility without cutting corners to reduce costs.

 

“To sum that up, the Pegulas will not deviate from building a best-in-class stadium in Buffalo,” Guelli said.

 

 

more:

https://apnews.com/article/bills-stadium-cost-pegula-8c56fad9d970f2b17429d3ae779f70ba

 

"People were talking about the Bills potentially leaving and now there’s a $2 billion stadium going up across the street to keep the team in Buffalo long term,” Guelli said"

 

Everything wrong with the US encapsulated in one statement. 

Edited November 16, 2024Nov 16 by MayDay
Refrain from profanity

7 hours ago, mrnyc said:

jussst for the record ... 🙀

 

 

 

 

Bills’ new stadium costs balloon to $2.1 billion, $560 million over initial estimate, team tells AP

 

BY  JOHN WAWROW

Updated 7:00 PM EST, November 15, 2024

 

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (AP) — The projected cost of the Buffalo Bills’ new stadium has ballooned to what team officials on Friday told The Associated Press is “north of $2.1 billion,” with owners Terry and Kim Pegula responsible for picking up the more than $560 million in overruns.

 

Bills president Pete Guelli said he was not surprised by the amount, given how the numbers have been tracking up since construction began 16 months ago. And he said the projected total represents the commitment the Pegulas have to the community because they are sticking to their vision for the facility without cutting corners to reduce costs.

 

“To sum that up, the Pegulas will not deviate from building a best-in-class stadium in Buffalo,” Guelli said.

 

 

more:

https://apnews.com/article/bills-stadium-cost-pegula-8c56fad9d970f2b17429d3ae779f70ba

 

Something seems fishy. 560 Million in cost overruns is an enormous increase, its far beyond any natural construction/materials inflation. There is definitely more to this story.

2 hours ago, 646empire said:

Something seems fishy. 560 Million in cost overruns is an enormous increase, its far beyond any natural construction/materials inflation. There is definitely more to this story.

But it does says he wil cover the overruns:  The Bills are responsible for any overruns beyond $1.54 billion...“I’m very pleased knowing that when all is said and done — and it still isn’t done, so it could go up even more — that the county is going to probably have contributed no more than 12% of the total cost, which is a pretty good deal,” Erie County executive Mark Poloncarz told The AP...The Pegulas are now on the hook for $1.25 billion in construction costs, plus $144 million more as part of a community benefits package to be spread out over the 30-year lease...The Bills are funding their share through an NFL loan program as well as raising money through a first-time seat licensing fee for season-ticket holders. Preliminary plans are also in the works to establish an entertainment zone, featuring restaurants, bars and shops, to be built once the existing stadium is razed.

 

It's a *** measuring context between these owners (see Jerry Jones) and Jimmy is trying to measure up.  At least the Buffalo owner stopped going to the public trough after the initial city/county/state commitment. 

 

They also burtied the lede...Pegula is also raising money by seeking to sell off a minority share — no more than 25% — of the franchise, though Guelli said the reasons behind the move are not connected to increased construction costs. The Bills met with several interested groups over the summer and into September, with Pegula expected to identify a new partner by the end of the year.

 

We guessed this is also why the Haslams did a last-minute 180 and out-of-the-blue walked away from the collaborative lakefront planning with Cle/County/State and rushed out the generic BP concept plans.  Saint Jimmy wants more cash for HSG to continue to buy other sports franchises per the new Bazillionaire trend of Multi-club ownership (MCO) - apparently in addition to the new NFL 10% equity owenership rule (the Bills owners already own the NHL Buffalo Sabres).

 

We call BS and say quit shining us on.  Jimmy needs to come clean and stop telling how great BP is for Cleveland and for that matter what sacrifices he is making for us. Ideally Jimmy would sell 25% to a minority ownership group (why not Lebron James Fenway Sports Group?), then sell 10% to private equity groups, and then take advantage of the NFL loans (as Buffalo) and recommit to the Lakefront (current or Burke or other Downtown Cleveland location).

10 hours ago, TBideon said:

I would argue the optics of the Browns leaving again are bad for local leadership.

 

I'd also argue that Cleveland's refusal to accept and evolve from change has been a serious detriment to the region's health, and that stubbornness goes far beyond the Browns. 

 

We need to move on from this and take the loss.

 

 

 

Your critique applies to our poor leadership over many decades who took waaaay too many losses without even trying and some actually added some banana peels to accelerate our downward slide.  But we suddenly have new forward-looking leadership (Bibb and Ronayne) who brought us back in and are at least offering some hope for the first time in decades.  Let them do the work and then tell us when there is no other hope.  Then we will do the after-action report and assign blame beyond Jimmy and the greedy NFL if appicable.  Now is not the time to turn the lights off and give up at the jump while all plans are at the trial balloon conceptual stages and very fluid.  Time for positve energy - Cleveland was been left alone wandering in the desert for the last many decades and now good things seems to happening.

5 hours ago, 646empire said:

Something seems fishy. 560 Million in cost overruns is an enormous increase, its far beyond any natural construction/materials inflation. There is definitely more to this story.

There must have been expensive change orders.  It generally means either the front end planning wasn't good enough or the owner didn't know what he wanted.

5 hours ago, 646empire said:

Something seems fishy. 560 Million in cost overruns is an enormous increase, its far beyond any natural construction/materials inflation. There is definitely more to this story.

Buffalo is going to have bigger problems on its hands....they are asking for $10-15K PSLs and the fan base is in full on revolt.   Contacts there tell me so far the sales response has been way under expectations.  

I'm sure Haslam would be putting the same kind of program into place in any new facility he is apart of.    

12 hours ago, TBideon said:

I would argue the optics of the Browns leaving again are bad for local leadership.

 

I'd also argue that Cleveland's refusal to accept and evolve from change has been a serious detriment to the region's health, and that stubbornness goes far beyond the Browns. 

 

We need to move on from this and take the loss.

 

 

 

Defeatist attitude if I’ve ever seen one. The city has been taking L’s for decades now. It’s time step up and quit losing businesses and attractions.

Clutching at the past and fighting losing battles, especially those (arguably) financially detrimental when you do the math, do not help; repeating these old mistakes just pushes the region further and further behind. 

 

Accept the L, re-budget anticipated but now unnecessary stadium improvements, and begin plans for actual economic policies and attentions that benefit Cleveland. 

 

Edited November 16, 2024Nov 16 by TBideon

I’m not accepting ~$2B of taxpayer money going to a private, isolated project outside Cleveland. Jimmyland will be downtown’s biggest competitor for events. 
 

Thank goodness for Chris Ronayne. He understands every dollar that goes to Brook Park is an opportunity lost. But it’s not only him. Most of the big stakeholders in this region are with him.  This thing isn’t over yet. 

 

 

 

I never accepted that the taxpayers may be extorted. Not a dime to the grifter.

Edited November 16, 2024Nov 16 by TBideon

Found this old article from 2017:

 

https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2017/01/why_arent_there_more_non-brown.html#:~:text=Browns Executive Vice President and,charity fundraisers and similar events.

 

Browns Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer Dave Jenkins says the Stadium is actually used quite frequently for non-Browns events, up to 150 times a year if you count high-school proms, business meetings, charity fundraisers and similar events.

 

"I fell pretty good about our events in the off-season," Jenkins said. Sporting events, using the Stadium field with paying customers in the seats, are a regular part of the schedule, too, he said.

 

I wondered about this. I've been to a couple of big private functions at CBS in the past both of which had a number of out of town visitors, but rather than anecdotal comments from people like me this is the sort of real analysis we need broken down further IMO. We know roughly how many people are Downtown when games are on, but little is spoken of this sort of stuff.

On 11/15/2024 at 8:02 PM, TBideon said:

I get all that. 

 

But, realistically, what do Bibb, et all, hope to achieve? Jimmy wants a dome and to control the surrounding assets before he dies; I can't stand the guy, but at least he hasn't been shy about it, and the current location and Burke can't provide both. Jimmy isn't looking to be a good Cleveland steward; he is looking to max his investment.

 

The city and county took their shot, and it missed. But playing games for political and reelection points is a waste of time and resources and brain cells.

 

*and he wants a massive public subsidy to get there

On 11/16/2024 at 7:59 AM, Willo said:

At least the Buffalo owner stopped going to the public trough after the initial city/county/state commitment. 

 

Not trying to make this a bills stadium thread, but none of this was out of the goodness of Terry's heart. He got a SWEETHEART deal from the state and the state had a good contract writer. It's not often that the cost overruns get covered by the ownership group. 

 

On 11/16/2024 at 10:22 AM, Cleburger said:

they are asking for $10-15K PSLs and the fan base is in full on revolt.   

 

I posted way upthread (and not defending psl's) but those numbers are for the fanciest of seats. The sideline seats are now converted to fancy club seats, and that 15k+ number is for the premium club seats (Jim Kelly club-esque). As far as I know they haven't been selling regular joe seats, yet. Also, I'm a bills fan and to say it's a full on revolt is VERY extreme, some people are walking away, others are paying the fees and treating it like an investment. If anything, it gets rid of the people that own 4-5 sets of tickets throughout the stadium, the alternative is brokers buying the PSL's which isn't great, but too many people treat the bills success as a business now. 

 

Finally, the new bills stadium is owned by the state which is HUGE when it comes to future negotiations and maintenance. Ralph Wilson Stadium is currently owned by Erie County, which has been detrimental in the past- if Jimmy doesn't own it outright, I sure hope that Ohio would be willing to make a similar deal (they won't, but I can dream). 

Edited November 18, 2024Nov 18 by GISguy