19 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

Not trying to make this a bills stadium thread, but none of this was out of the goodness of Terry's heart. He got a SWEETHEART deal from the state and the state had a good contract writer. It's not often that the cost overruns get covered by the ownership group. 

 

 

I think it's now pretty much standard for ownership groups to cover cost overruns.  The Jaguars ownership is doing it for their big stadium renovation and the Haslams even said they plan to in their letter announcing they're focusing on the Brook Park site.

5 minutes ago, acd said:

 

I think it's now pretty much standard for ownership groups to cover cost overruns.  The Jaguars ownership is doing it for their big stadium renovation and the Haslams even said they plan to in their letter announcing they're focusing on the Brook Park site.

 

I stand corrected. Buffalo media has made it out to be a big deal, probably has more to do with the current state of material and labor costs, though.

 

It looks like overruns have been covered by Vikings and Seahawks ownership too, but their estimates were probably a lot less in flux.

2 hours ago, snakebite said:

Found this old article from 2017:

 

https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2017/01/why_arent_there_more_non-brown.html#:~:text=Browns Executive Vice President and,charity fundraisers and similar events.

 

Browns Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer Dave Jenkins says the Stadium is actually used quite frequently for non-Browns events, up to 150 times a year if you count high-school proms, business meetings, charity fundraisers and similar events.

 

"I fell pretty good about our events in the off-season," Jenkins said. Sporting events, using the Stadium field with paying customers in the seats, are a regular part of the schedule, too, he said.

 

I wondered about this. I've been to a couple of big private functions at CBS in the past both of which had a number of out of town visitors, but rather than anecdotal comments from people like me this is the sort of real analysis we need broken down further IMO. We know roughly how many people are Downtown when games are on, but little is spoken of this sort of stuff.

 

I don't think this stuff is a real big game changer for the stadium or for downtown.  It's not what people are talking about when they are talking about the kind of stadium events that justify a dome.  Those events are the same kinds of events that can be had at a Holiday Inn. 

PSL'S AT Brook Park Dome? https://fox8.com/news/new-browns-stadium-will-fans-face-expensive-psls/

10 hours ago, X said:

 

I don't think this stuff is a real big game changer for the stadium or for downtown.  It's not what people are talking about when they are talking about the kind of stadium events that justify a dome.  Those events are the same kinds of events that can be had at a Holiday Inn. 

I feel major sports stadiums have a sentimental attraction and an element of glamour when people are picking a venue for an event or try and impress people they are hosting and the NFL is just so far ahead of the rest in sheer popularity. I think it's somewhat of a different market compared to your average event space at a mid level hotel. Maybe these are the sort of questions though that the city should be asking in an economic analysis or at least attempting to explore in terms of the breakdown of individual events. Would people take their event instead to say the Convention Center, Progressive Field or the Hilton or wherever or are are they only interested in an NFL stadium or specifically the Browns stadium because they are diehard supporters. 

I’m done with the whole franchise until the Haslem’s no longer own them. 

20 hours ago, simplythis said:

PSL'S AT Brook Park Dome? https://fox8.com/news/new-browns-stadium-will-fans-face-expensive-psls/

 

Will leopards eat our faces? Let's ask the leopards while they're hungry. Surely their answer will be truthful. 

14 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I’m done with the whole franchise until the Haslem’s no longer own them. 

 

You strike me as the kind of person who would avoid a certain restaurant after 14 consecutive bouts of food poisoning. Meanwhile other fans will keep drinking that e-coli laced Kool Aid haha. 

Edited November 19, 2024Nov 19 by surfohio

Dennis Kucinich wants a Taxpayer's Lawsuit and he will initiate it. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/i-team-could-taxpayers-lawsuit-be-filed-to-stop-browns-move/

Browns release new video. They are asking for the unheard of Taxpayer subsidy 1.2 million. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/investigations/cleveland-browns-haslam-sports-group-stadium-funding-proposal-public-funding-brook-park-3news-investigates/95-fcfc95c8-cfe1-456f-9cd8-0af313779743

9 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Browns release new video. They are asking for the unheard of Taxpayer subsidy 1.2 million. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/investigations/cleveland-browns-haslam-sports-group-stadium-funding-proposal-public-funding-brook-park-3news-investigates/95-fcfc95c8-cfe1-456f-9cd8-0af313779743

1.2 million isn’t that bad? That’s a typo right?

Undeniably a cool video, but I honestly think their charm offensive is going to fail. Ronayne and Bibb seem united in opposition, and the team is less popular than I can ever remember them being. 1.2 billion in taxpayer funds was always a big ask, but with the present situation being as it is, I don't think they're likely to get that or anything close. A couple hundred million from the state and county, and I'm sure Brook Park will exempt them from all the taxes they can, but I don't think the Haslams will be able to swing this unless they front more of the money themselves. 

anyone else feeling the apathy towards the team this year? even before the season started. Nobody at work talks about them, downtown is not popping without the w6th tailgates - even during home games.  I'll have to walk around tonight to see what the scene is - a lot of tickets on secondary markets for under $50.  I really think there won't be a ton of pressure from the fans for the county to pay up.  Jimmy may have finally broken the fan base.  

Edited November 21, 2024Nov 21 by Whipjacka

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

anyone else feeling the apathy towards the team this year? even before the season started. Nobody at work talks about them, downtown is not popping without the w6th tailgates - even during home games.  I'll have to walk around tonight to see what the scene is - a lot of tickets on secondary markets for under $50.  I really think there won't be a ton of pressure from the fans for the county to pay up.  Jimmy may have finally broken the fan base.  

 

I keep watching tickets fall and am tempted to go myself-there's a bunch hovering in the low $30's even after fees. All that said, while you're wandering around beforehand see what counties the license plates are from, I'd venture to bet most people don't even live in CuyCo and they'll probably be the largest pro-BP contingent. These are the same people that "moved to x county because Cuyahoga County taxes are too high" while also saying "wtf why doesn't the city/county just pick up the cost and move on?"

I don't see any political pressure on the state or county governments that would lead to this much public money going to the Haslams. Seems like the only arrow left in their quiver is to threaten to leave and see if that scares anyone enough to pay up.

2 hours ago, coneflower said:

I don't see any political pressure on the state or county governments that would lead to this much public money going to the Haslams. Seems like the only arrow left in their quiver is to threaten to leave and see if that scares anyone enough to pay up.

So Fu**ing be it. Criminal Jimmy can swindle a different town

It was like being in a snowglobe last night, I know the discussion is going on in the other stadium thread, but you can't beat a weather game. That said, ticket prices cratered because of the weather, I'm sure Jimmy isn't a fan of that.

 

$35

 

8 minutes ago, GISguy said:

It was like being in a snowglobe last night, I know the discussion is going on in the other stadium thread, but you can't beat a weather game. That said, ticket prices cratered because of the weather, I'm sure Jimmy isn't a fan of that.

 

$35

 

Ticket prices cratered cause his team was 2-8. 

Just now, marty15 said:

Ticket prices cratered cause his team was 2-8. 

 

You're not wrong...my experience in Buffalo is the same though re:weather. They don't drop to the $10 mark, but if it's crap weather there's a good chance you can get in for a lot cheaper than a nice day.

Here's a good argument against a dome in cities like Cleveland.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/thursday-nights-game-should-end-all-talk-of-a-dome-in-cleveland-and-elsewhere

22 hours ago, Htsguy said:

1.2 million isn’t that bad? That’s a typo right?

The more we learn to more find that it isn’t 50/50. The story says he will borrow against future tax revenues and rely on government agency bonds to be used. If true we are already above and beyond. Why not borrow from the NFL Jimmy. Jimmy needs to stop this bum rush, slow down, and come back to the table. Expecting $1.2 billion from public sources should come with a non-negotiable mandate for Cleveland only. Why not other locations such as Gordon Park bluff or maybe even East Cleveland (if enough land can be assembled near the redline trains and Healthline BRT terminus and the State can help force the EC merger with Cleveland - something the State should be able to rally around as a long term fix to the sad EC situation). For a public $ 1.2 billion match surely we can reimagine and also permanently fix any issues with the current stadium or build next door at Burke.

Hang it in the Louvre

 

 

A 50/50 partnership that's really 20/80 over time.

 

And a partnership in which the other partner isn't getting paid any of the actual revenue. Folks, THAT ISN'T A PARTNERSHIP.

 

Can you imagine ANY other business operating this way? How gleefully braindead does one actually have to be to support this grift. 

 

F Jimmy and his wife. And F anyone who justifies this s**t.  I don't care if the Browns win ten Superbowls. It's still a s**tty deal.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2024Nov 22 by TBideon

Am I slow, because I can’t understand how these geniuses think they are going to secure $1.2 billion in public subsidies without the support of Cleveland and Cuyahoga county.

Hasn't the State also basically said they cant do much either?

I think the state can do something, but not to the level Haslam wants as it risks a domino effect with the Bengals then wanting a dome and then every other team in the state demanding entertainment districts and glossy new builds. I think it's back to the current site or a bare bones open air stadium surrounded by nothing but parking at Brook Park. I just don't see how the current vision is accomplished with the obvious funding gap.

1 hour ago, snakebite said:

I just don't see how the current vision is accomplished with the obvious funding gap.

 

No one else does either. Asking for tax payer funding of 1.2 billion isn't the final ask either. It's going to cost multiple hundreds of millions to reconfigure the roads around the dome too. Who thinks (other than Jimmy) that's a fair ask? And all that money just so fans are warm and comfortable. That's the sell but the real reason is to maximize the money Jimmy can get his hands on. We live in the era of the billionaire grifter. It only stops when we stop supporting them.

I imagine he'll send this in May 2025:

 

Dear Community Leaders,

 

The Cleveland Browns have always been a cornerstone of Northeast Ohio, uniting fans in shared passion. However, to ensure the team's long-term success and to provide a state-of-the-art experience for our fans, a new stadium is essential. Without public and financial support to realize this vision, we may be forced to explore other options outside the region.

 

We remain committed to Cleveland, but this is a critical juncture. Together, we can preserve the Browns' legacy here at home. Let’s work collaboratively to build a future we can all be proud of.

 

Sincerely,
Jimmy Haslam
Owner, Cleveland Browns

And then in November 2025:

 

"Dear Browns Fans and Northeast Ohio Community,

 

It is with a heavy heart that I announce the Cleveland Browns will be relocating. Despite our efforts to secure funding for a new stadium to enhance the fan experience and ensure the franchise's sustainability, we were unable to reach an agreement.

 

The decision was not made lightly, as the Browns are deeply rooted in this community’s history and spirit. We are profoundly grateful for your unwavering support over the years and will carry the memories of this incredible fan base with us.

 

Thank you for everything.

 

Sincerely,

Jimmy Haslam
Owner, Cleveland Browns"

It’s wild to think that the lakefront/renovation plan has been in the works for the majority of the Haslam’s ownership. The city and county are behind it, and it’s financially viable. 
 

It’s completely absurd we are at the point where we’re talking about the team leaving the region. Jimmy knew this was a small, stagnant market from the beginning. 
 

Jimmy has unilaterally decided to move the team out of Cleveland (therefore severing any formal business with the city). His ask will be around $2B in taxpayer money for a completely private project. 
 

Sorry, I know we’ve beaten this to death but I just had to recap where we’re at.  It would be disgusting if the NFL would stand by a move. A storied small market team with a $1B+ stadium plan already in the works…

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

 

And all that money just so fans are warm and comfortable. 

 

A covered stadium also helps protect the stadium (plumbing, concrete, steel etc) from freeze-thaw cycles. A climate-controlled interior should help a stadium last longer in our climate.

 

Yeah, last night's game was awesome. Reminds me of the 2007 blizzard game against Buffalo. But that's 17 years between snow games. That's two games out of roughly 170 during that period. Is that really worth the climatological damage to a stadium?

As I have aged, I have grown fond of the idea of a domed stadium. Enjoying the game in a state-of-the-art facility in comfort is really appealing. But watching last night's game changed my mind. It brought back all the reasons I didn't want a dome over 40 years ago. The snowglobe game last night was amazing. For those that think that the Browns playing outside of downtown won't hurt, beg to differ. Maybe it can't be measured, but that game was something many viewers will remember and for most, leave a very positive image of Cleveland. If there was some way the Browns could stay downtown and not put a roof over the stadium, I'm all for it. 

22 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

A covered stadium also helps protect the stadium (plumbing, concrete, steel etc) from freeze-thaw cycles. A climate-controlled interior should help a stadium last longer in our climate.

 

Yeah, last night's game was awesome. Reminds me of the 2007 blizzard game against Buffalo. But that's 17 years between snow games. That's two games out of roughly 170 during that period. Is that really worth the climatological damage to a stadium?

Do we have data on the maintenance costs of dome vs open? US Bank Stadium is only 7 years old and already needs a $50m upgrade and $20m/year in maintenance for the next decade. 
 

I’m not trying to be argumentative here but I’d love to see data. There are old open-air stadiums across this country (all the huge college ones too). If we want something long-lasting and easy to maintain I don’t think it’s an enormous building with a transparent roof. 
 

Personally I feel even the domes in Indy and Detroit feel kinda dated. I haven’t been to Vegas but it looks like a cloudy day in Cleveland in there to me. There’s all kinds of risk here and I just hope it’s on Haslam and not the taxpayers. 

The old stadium lasted over 60 years, and would likely still be standing had it not been torn down. I don:t think a lot of maintenance was needed during it's lifetime.

42 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

The old stadium lasted over 60 years, and would likely still be standing had it not been torn down. I don:t think a lot of maintenance was needed during it's lifetime.

 

Toronto just remodeled their 30 year old Skydome (now Rogers Centre) for $300 million or so - though they say the Populous redesign will extend its life 10-15 years. 

Interesting. A Toronto news story said it was built in 1989 for about $500 million or approx $1 billion currently. They did get a retractable dome that still works 30 plus years later at that price - closes in 20 minutes. Why can’t we get either a retractable or permanent one with roofing fabric being used at SoFi and other stadiums around the world, Jimmy doesn’t want us to see the lakefront plans for some reason. Let’s remodel the current stadium and agree to a new one next door at Burke or elsewhere in 15 years.

https://populous.com/article/toronto-blue-jays-partner-with-populous-on-300-million-rogers-centre-renovation
 

 

Retractable would be my preference rather than a permanent roof. Milwaukee and Seattle have retractable roofs in addition to Toronto.

Tradition vs. Dome https://fox8.com/news/lakefront-tradition-vs-dome-browns-fans-weigh-in-after-white-out-win/

To be fair, l am not against a dome stadium. Actually l think a dome is kinda cool. I'm simply against the extravagant cost. Especially in a market like Cleveland. And especially at a time like this when we are in the process of paying for the hundreds of millions in (beautiful and probably needed) upgrades to the other two sports facilities downtown. When we need to find a way to build an incredibly expensive jail and courthouse. When we continue to have difficulty funding the social services in the city. When we want to fund major investments on the lakefront and the riverfront. When our rail network is teetering from lack of investment. When any number of other very expensive and forward thinking projects must be funded. 

 

I'm as big a local sports fan as anyone on this site. I DON'T want to lose the Browns but considering the financial climate here, a very fair offer has been made to the team to build a new stadium on the lakefront. The only reason Haslam turned it down is because of his ego and greed. He looks around and sees Jerry World or SoFi in LA and is envious. He says "l'm a player too, Where's my palace?" "Where's my cash register?" And that's the problem with much of modern sports today. Greedy players, even more greedy owners. 

 

A country is what it funds. In today's America we fund entertainment. We build Disneyland's and sports palaces. We pay our entertainers exorbitant dollars and their owners rake in even more AND get huffy when there is some pushback. The entertainment pendulum has swung too far into crazy. Time to pull it back and spend more of our tax dollars on the people and less on the entertainers and their owners.

Perhaps the current stadium should have been designed to accommodate the addition of a roof.

21 hours ago, KJP said:

A covered stadium also helps protect the stadium (plumbing, concrete, steel etc) from freeze-thaw cycles. A climate-controlled interior should help a stadium last longer in our climate.

 

Yeah, last night's game was awesome. Reminds me of the 2007 blizzard game against Buffalo. But that's 17 years between snow games. That's two games out of roughly 170 during that period. Is that really worth the climatological damage to a stadium?

 

An enclosed building is more protected from the elements potentially reducing maintenance costs. Are those savings greater than the maintenance costs for the roof of an enclosed facility? How about the necessary building systems for an enclosed structure?

9 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

An enclosed building is more protected from the elements potentially reducing maintenance costs. Are those savings greater than the maintenance costs for the roof of an enclosed facility? How about the necessary building systems for an enclosed structure?

 

A domed stadium HVAC requirements would include a massive chiller, dozens of massive air handlers and miles of duct work to keep over ~100 million cubic feet climate controlled. Utility costs would also see a significant increase when compared to a normal stadium. You would likely need to run some heat throughout the whole winter, including when it is likely empty for months between any events. A dome (even with the use of something like ETFE) will require a massive amount of structural steel that will also need to be maintained and cleaned (all ~8 acres of it). But hey, at least an artificial turf field is slightly less expensive to maintain than a grass field. 

 

Initial maintenance costs may be low, but will steadily rise. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that annual maintenance would be around ~2% of the structure's current value (there are a lot of variables, but this is a normal rate for many buildings). If we use the Haslam's $2.4 billion figure (assuming no cost increases like Buffalo's which was around ~25%), then we could expect an annual maintenance cost of $48,000,000. Are the Haslam's going to pay that, or will it fall to some new stadium authority? Would county general funds be at risk if the intended revenue streams for stadium maintenance come up short (as they have for existing facilities)?

27 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

A domed stadium HVAC requirements would include a massive chiller, dozens of massive air handlers and miles of duct work to keep over ~100 million cubic feet climate controlled. Utility costs would also see a significant increase when compared to a normal stadium. You would likely need to run some heat throughout the whole winter, including when it is likely empty for months between any events. A dome (even with the use of something like ETFE) will require a massive amount of structural steel that will also need to be maintained and cleaned (all ~8 acres of it). But hey, at least an artificial turf field is slightly less expensive to maintain than a grass field. 

 

Initial maintenance costs may be low, but will steadily rise. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that annual maintenance would be around ~2% of the structure's current value (there are a lot of variables, but this is a normal rate for many buildings). If we use the Haslam's $2.4 billion figure (assuming no cost increases like Buffalo's which was around ~25%), then we could expect an annual maintenance cost of $48,000,000. Are the Haslam's going to pay that, or will it fall to some new stadium authority? Would county general funds be at risk if the intended revenue streams for stadium maintenance come up short (as they have for existing facilities)?

All very good points. Thank you for that. But don’t worry about the county General fund. The county is not gonna touch this dome with a 10 foot pole.

Browns asking fans what they want in a new dome. https://fox8.com/news/i-team-browns-ask-what-fans-want-in-new-stadium-what-they-would-pay-for/

3 hours ago, simplythis said:

Browns asking fans what they want in a new dome. https://fox8.com/news/i-team-browns-ask-what-fans-want-in-new-stadium-what-they-would-pay-for/

It's basically getting the kids together to ask them to write their Christmas list. Yet there is no bank of mom and dad.

 

Also I would be absolutely stunned if PSLs didn't play a part in what they want. Maybe that should be their next exercise. Except it won't as they know the suggestion of it will scare people. 

6 hours ago, snakebite said:

Also I would be absolutely stunned if PSLs didn't play a part in what they want. Maybe that should be their next exercise. Except it won't as they know the suggestion of it will scare people. 

 

I could be totally making this up but didn't the current stadium have psls until recently? 

12 hours ago, simplythis said:

Browns asking fans what they want in a new dome. https://fox8.com/news/i-team-browns-ask-what-fans-want-in-new-stadium-what-they-would-pay-for/

 

If the Browns are asking me what l want in a new dome my preference is for an open air dome which would look like a stadium without a top. And this open air dome with a Brook Park address would be built on the site of the existing stadium. 

 

I think this is the answer to our problems. We save over a billion dollars by building a dome without a top. Brookpark gets to say they have a domed stadium while Cleveland gets the actual facility on the lakefront. I think this is a good compromise. A win win if you will.

13 hours ago, simplythis said:

Browns asking fans what they want in a new dome. https://fox8.com/news/i-team-browns-ask-what-fans-want-in-new-stadium-what-they-would-pay-for/

Don't play their Hansel and Gretal game trying to trick us and lure us in to their evil plans...

 

But, if we were to answer at all we would keep it simple telling them to bring back the following: (1) $1.00 hot dogs with stadium mustard; (2) $2.00 beers (we remember our Dad's generation each game bitching when Modell raised the price to $2.00); and, (3) the mile long Men's room horse trough urinals - though they looked like they were reclaimed from the underbelly of the Rome Coliseum -  that were the most efficient in getting the most people in and out quickly during timeouts or between quarters and half-time (the constant inch of water on the floor we could do without). 

@Ethan Sarcasm.

^ Yeah, don't read me too literally, it's just a goofy take, flipping things on their head.