1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Airport, Justice Center....

Pesht, Ferrari Tower, Rock-o-meter.... ? 

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

I’m trying to contemplate this. Progressive moving downtown would be massive. What could possibly be bigger, outside of some coastal company relocating? Moving Hopkins to Burke?  This is Thunderdome

Amazon? ?

9 minutes ago, G00pie said:

I am on the edge of my seat, something bigger than Progressive, not the 3 ford plants going back online, not a new stadium!!  arrggg  i need a drink

Once upon a time a good friend was the "Tech Czar" for the city. I thought it would be funny to disguise my voice and leave him a voicemail as the CEO of Boeing, looking to relocate. He will never forgive me.   

1 hour ago, Geowizical said:

 

 

I'm willing to place a bet on that and not change my answer: Google on the Riverfront in Tower City / CityBlock. Check back in a year (or however long this stays quiet) and see if I'm right...

BTW, weren't there rumors about this at some point?

 

Anyways, we should probably stay on topic here, maybe move this discussion to general thread...

I started that, and my info came from as close to the horses mouth as you can get. Still no reason to think otherwise. 

This is pretty wack that the speculation of all the big projects are now related to a possible new stadium. This is the most important time for urban planners in Cleveland as there seems to be insane amounts of musical chairs going on downtown.  SHW, justice ctr, police hq, potentially 3-4+ residential towers, a new stadium?, some obnoxiously large company coming to town?  

   We better get the rapids fixed up. We better get a levy voted on to complete the wfl because the direction is clearly up. 

I’ll say this if I haven’t before, Alphabet/Google was/is working directly with Vocon. My source said it was their largest project undertaking in company history. All related to CityBlock. I know this is the wrong thread, but just continuing the euphoric speculation here. I haven’t been allowed to know anymore since that convo.  

1 minute ago, marty15 said:

I’ll say this if I haven’t before, Alphabet/Google was/is working directly with Vocon. My source said it was their largest project undertaking in company history. All related to CityBlock. I know this is the wrong thread, but just continuing the euphoric speculation here. I haven’t been allowed to know anymore since that convo.  

Largest undertaking in Google history?? ?

2 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Largest undertaking in Google history?? ?

In Vocon history 

6 minutes ago, marty15 said:

In Vocon history 

Looking at the Vocon website, it seems on face-value that Goodyear HQ is/was their current biggest project...

So something bigger than that? Another HQ?

Edited November 13, 20195 yr by Geowizical

12 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

Looking at the Vocon website, it seems on face-value that Goodyear HQ is/was their current biggest project...

So something bigger than that? Another HQ?

They recently completed Compass regional HQ in Fisherman’s Wharf. My source was working on that project. Their CEO worked at Google for awhile and sold them some of their most important search engine algo programs. If that’s relevant ??‍♂️

Edited November 13, 20195 yr by marty15

2 hours ago, marty15 said:

I seriously think SHW’s official decision is holding up a lot of things. 

 

Not really. It's amazing how irrelevant it is to so many other things going on. But things like a stadium-oriented development district are so much better with it.

3 hours ago, simplythis said:

Kjp  - Can you start a new thread and move all of this because we are getting off topic and

it could all get erased.  ( And this is worth keeping )

 

I can't move this conversation. A new thread isn't needed either. It could go in the Random Developments thread.

 

As for the many other questions, I can't answer them. It's still very early on. 

Back to the possible stadium renovation. I know everyone seems to want a retractable Dome, but I don't think that's practical. I also think it's really really expensive , so I would look at options for a fixed roof. I'm using this drawing I put together to illustrate how it could look. Now I know know it's not drawn correctly, and it's missing a bunch of support beams but I think it could work. One of my favorite NFL stadiums is Ford Field and they don't have a retractable Dome and I think it works out well. If we want to do a major event during the summer outside we can use the malls for that like we did for Play Ball Park which worked out great. So just an idea. And by the way this involves chopping off half of the top third deck on the city Side.

 

Edited November 13, 20195 yr by freethink

So @KJP, everything heard this far would keep, but update, the existing stadium?

 

Also, re: the other stuff happening on this thread in the last 24 hours, there’s no way I’m going to be effective at work today ?‍♂️

10 hours ago, marty15 said:

I’ll say this if I haven’t before, Alphabet/Google was/is working directly with Vocon. My source said it was their largest project undertaking in company history. All related to CityBlock. I know this is the wrong thread, but just continuing the euphoric speculation here. I haven’t been allowed to know anymore since that convo.  

One thing that became apparent in looking at their website; there are a lot of very interesting HQ and offices in the Cleveland area, done by Vocon and they only have three offices; the big two (LA, NYC) and Cleveland.

Edited November 13, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

25 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

So @KJP, everything heard this far would keep, but update, the existing stadium?

 

Also, re: the other stuff happening on this thread in the last 24 hours, there’s no way I’m going to be effective at work today ?‍♂️

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

18 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

?

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

 

It's been talked about multiple times. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2018/08/29/Facilities/FirstEnergy-Roof.aspx

 

@KJP Or anyone else in the know.... Does this new Stadium plan/development include Cumberland & Pace, or would they no longer be apart of it?  Would this be a whole new group? If so, did Pace lose the leasing rights to the land?

17 minutes ago, NR said:

@KJP Or anyone else in the know.... Does this new Stadium plan/development include Cumberland & Pace, or would they no longer be apart of it?  Would this be a whole new group? If so, did Pace lose the leasing rights to the land?

 

Stay tuned

1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

Stay tuned

oh man oh man...  its like christmas around here..  its early and i need a drink...

 

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! ?

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving ? truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! ?

1 minute ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! ?

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving ? truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! ?

 

In re: cultural centers. No one would be moving... Rather a collaborative addition involving several Cleveland cultural and educational institutions can have a presence / voice. 

4 minutes ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! ?

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving ? truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! ?

The likelier participants are probably the cultural anchors right next door to the stadium and a potential land bridge/CC expansion yes?

8 minutes ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

A new corporate headquarters in Downtown Cleveland that isn't Sherwin-Williams? Who could this be ... Has Amazon or Google put Cleveland on their collective maps? The suspense is intense!!!!! ?

 

Also, what's this about Cleveland's iconic cultural anchors going in together on a project downtown? I don't believe our stately and imposing Cleveland Museum of Art can be loaded onto a moving ? truck.

 

Spill more details, puleeeeeeze!!!! ?

 

Outside of Progressive, which Ken said it's not, the only companies that are "Bigger" in Ohio are: Cardinal Health, Kroger, Marathon Petroleum, Procter & Gamble, Nationwide.    So if its outside Ohio there are plenty of options.  However, the only two that we've heard any rumors of, to my knowledge, are Amazon and Google.  Perhaps the CityBlock/Blockland development has inspired Amazon to re-engage in its HQ2 plans, or maybe similar with Google and that's why their putting a Datacenter in central OH. I'm sure they'd both be happy with the opportunity to have a nice location attached to the TechHub with the view of the river/river park.

 

From what @YABO713 said and @CleCaneFan referenced, I'm guessing the "cultural centers" would be more like the Science Center and Rock Hall.

 

I agree, we need more breadcrumbs!

There is no way a stadium could be squeezed into the pit.  

Also off topic here-ish, i saw that google has a massive project called ‘Operation Nightingale’ that is picking up and analyzing most everyone’s medical data in AI. Perhaps they want to locate that group in Cleveland or maybe many are already here? They said it is currently 150 employees. But it sounds like it could expand rapidly. 

23 minutes ago, audidave said:

Also off topic here-ish, i saw that google has a massive project called ‘Operation Nightingale’ that is picking up and analyzing most everyone’s medical data in AI. Perhaps they want to locate that group in Cleveland or maybe many are already here? They said it is currently 150 employees. But it sounds like it could expand rapidly. 

 

As nefarious as I think that project is, that was my first thought too!

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 

In re: cultural centers. No one would be moving... Rather a collaborative addition involving several Cleveland cultural and educational institutions can have a presence / voice. 

 

Kinda like... an Art Mart? ?

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I've heard that keeping the stadium but retrofitting it with a roof (retractable and non-retractable) is one option. Another is building a new stadium over the tracks and The Pit, but I don't see that viable unless we're talking about spending $200 million to reroute freight trains off the lakefront. That site would also impinge on the port property, possibly requiring that it move.

I would also think that it would be a security/homeland security nightmare.  Having a stadium full of people and then running trains under it would be a security logistics issue.  Imagine that train with a bomb on board.  

It happens non-stop in the home of 9/11, NYC. In addition to being home of the Knicks, Rangers and numerous events, Madison Square Garden sits atop the NYC subway, NJ Transit and Amtrak platforms.

Edited November 13, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

5 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

I would also think that it would be a security/homeland security nightmare.  Having a stadium full of people and then running trains under it would be a security logistics issue.  Imagine that train with a bomb on board.  

 

North Station in Boston (Commuter and Regional Rail) is under TD Garden (home arena for Celtics and Bruins). 

Capital One Arena in Washington DC also sits on a Mateo station if I'm not mistaken.

Both of the above mentioned arenas were built pre 9/11.

 

The difference for Cleveland is that its also a freight line, MSG and TD Garden are above only commuter train tracks and stations. They could build above the tracks along the Lakefront for a new stadium site, or for stadium-oriented development and a convention center connection and expansion, if the freight trains were rerouted (or it would at least make it easier). I don't believe it is a prerequisite for development around the stadium, or for better connections to the city, but if the Haslam's wanted to increase their options in the area they should consider the rail bypass. 

 

Bypass study, by KJP (2003):  https://www.gcbl.org/files/resources/railbypassstudy.pdf

 

I don’t get what the point of building a stadium right next to the current stadium.  It doesn’t improve the accessibility.  It does get a bit closer to the East bank, though. It takes away parking. It has the same lakefront winds unless of course it is a dome or retractible dome.  I don’t see how it gets more use than the current stadium since there isn’t room to even add development without taking over significant parts of the port.  Do we really want to add the port into the musical chairs?  Not even including the various rail infrastructure easements or alterations.  Which would also go into the hundreds of millions.  Unless someone just wants to blow a lot of money (billions?) for a minor improvement in product for 8 games a year, the pit doesn’t seem a likely location. 

3 minutes ago, audidave said:

I don’t get what the point of building a stadium right next to the current stadium.  It doesn’t improve the accessibility.  It does get a bit closer to the East bank, though. It takes away parking. It has the same lakefront winds unless of course it is a dome or retractible dome.  I don’t see how it gets more use than the current stadium since there isn’t room to even add development without taking over significant parts of the port.  Do we really want to add the port into the musical chairs?  Not even including the various rail infrastructure easements or alterations.  Which would also go into the hundreds of millions.  Unless someone just wants to blow a lot of money (billions?) for a minor improvement in product for 8 games a year, the pit doesn’t seem a likely location. 

 

Agreed--it would be easier to cap the entire tracks and put a restaurant/retail village right on top of it, along with new entrances to the stadium at that level.   

If NYC developers can build Hudson Yards on top of the Hudson River rail yards, why can't developers build above the current lakefront railroad tracks and shoreway in Cleveland?

Edited November 14, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

Do the Haslems really have this much cash laying around? I'm not sure of their net worth, but they just spent $150m on the crew and are building a $200m stadium. 

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If NYC developers can build Hudson Yards on top of the Hudson River rail yards, why can't developers build above the current lakefront railroad tracks and shoreway in Cleveland?

 

 Because only passenger trains go underneath the Hudson Yards. More than 70 freight trains per day, some carrying large quantities of inhalable toxic materials, travel the Norfolk Southern tracks through downtown Cleveland.  The railroads, who own their rights of way and the air rights above them, would prefer not to have newly built structures covering long stretches of their rights of way. I am very curious as to how Chicago's McCormick Place got Canadian National's approval.

Edited November 14, 20195 yr by KJP

I would post this in the GCRTA thread with the other responses about the State's indifference to public transit.

13 hours ago, jmblec2 said:

Do the Haslems really have this much cash laying around? I'm not sure of their net worth, but they just spent $150m on the crew and are building a $200m stadium. 

As I mentioned up thread, Berkshire Hathaway bought a 38.6% stake in PFJ pretty recently, and that stake will increase to 80% in 2023 - likely freeing up billions, so yes they have the cash. 

16 hours ago, KJP said:

 

 Because only passenger trains go underneath the Hudson Yards. More than 70 freight trains per day, some carrying large quantities of inhalable toxic materials, travel the Norfolk Southern tracks through downtown Cleveland.  The railroads, who own their rights of way and the air rights above them, would prefer not to have newly built structures covering long stretches of their rights of way. I am very curious as to how Chicago's McCormick Place got Canadian National's approval.

Eminent domain?

1 hour ago, ydard said:

Eminent domain?

 

Good luck with that. Eminent domain doesn't mean taking property. It means acquiring private property for public good when no other reasonable alternative exists, then paying them fair value for their property. You cannot move a railroad out of the way without first providing them with an alternative right of way that is no more impactful to the natural and built environments at their proposed locations vs. their current location.

 

BTW, railroads have their eminent domain capabilities. They are one of the very few private enterprises in the USA who can undertake an eminent domain proceeding without the involvement of public sector sponsor.

I'm very well familiar with eminent domain.  I was simply suggesting, in response to your curiosity, that -- if Canadian National was not a willing seller -- the convention authority could have used eminent domain to acquire air rights to build McCormick Place.

18 hours ago, KJP said:

 

 Because only passenger trains go underneath the Hudson Yards. More than 70 freight trains per day, some carrying large quantities of inhalable toxic materials, travel the Norfolk Southern tracks through downtown Cleveland.  The railroads, who own their rights of way and the air rights above them, would prefer not to have newly built structures covering long stretches of their rights of way. I am very curious as to how Chicago's McCormick Place got Canadian National's approval.

In my experience the railroads aren’t very helpful or accommodating.

 

Once in a meeting when asked to do something they didn’t like, they responded with “we took out the buffalo and the indians; if we need to, we’ll take out you too.”

 

Or something to that effect ?

Their significance continues to diminish with tremendous corporate consolidation over the years and various rail alternatives.  As we all know, that has been one of the great mistakes that has haunted the region since the decline in the steel industry.

On 11/13/2019 at 1:37 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

North Station in Boston (Commuter and Regional Rail) is under TD Garden (home arena for Celtics and Bruins). 

 

This is a better example as the orange line and green lines are altered, and a reconstructed station was built.  However, the train waiting area, are HORRIBLE before, during and after any event as the train station and Garden have shared space.  It one of the worst places to see an event.  I know why Boston fans are so damn angry!

Cleveland isn't the only city battling the railroads for control of precious land resources. Charlotte and Greensboro, NC have similar desires, but success with the railroads is not an impossibility. It does however require the will, perseverence and careful negotiation.

 

https://www.charlotteagenda.com/186266/220-acre-version-of-new-york-citys-central-park-proposed-for-a-longstanding-north-charlotte-rail-yard/

Edited November 15, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

Not sure what topic thread this should be under but I figured this was the closest to what was discussed this morning.

On my way into work this AM I was listening to 92.3 the fan and they had David Gilbert in studio, who is the President of the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission. They got on the topic of both the Cleveland Browns and Indians having stadium issues coming up, as far as leases expiring. Essentially David said that Cleveland needs to start planning now instead of waiting until the last minute to try and pass a new tax to pay for the stadium(s). Which I completely agree with, Cleveland needs to do everything they can to keep the Browns/Indians in Cleveland. However, after the segment was over Daryl Ruiter (beat writer for Cleveland Browns) gave his "plan" on what he would do and I wanted to give the 10,000 foot view of his plan and get peoples' thoughts, opinions and see if this is even viable because I thought it made sense at a high level.

 

Anyways, the Indians lease is up at the end of 2023, he mentioned that the current stadium is too big and has too many suites to support the local team (which I 100% agree). He said they should build a smaller more intimate stadium (32,000 - 35,000 seats and 60ish suites), similar to PNC Park in Pittsburgh. I think that PNC Park is probably one of the nicest parks in all of baseball. Location, he mention possibly building where the current Wolstein Center is right now. Not sure if that is viable location (that's why I'm putting this out there). Anyways, if that was a possibility, he mentioned that Cleveland Browns stadium can be built on the old Progressive Field lot. Again, sounds good on the surface, not sure how viable it is or if people would even want this.

Either way, Browns Stadium needs to be moved off the lake. When (If) the Browns ever put a winning football team on the field again, that current stadium is a mess to get in/out of. With only two entrances, due to the lake, trying to get 65,000 people in/out of a stadium is a complete disaster. Also, with it being an open air stadium, it's essentially wasted real estate except for 10-12 events a year. Total waste. Finally, I'm not sure how reliable/true this is, but friend of mine told me that he worked on the stadium during the renovations, Cleveland was in a such of rush to rebuild a stadium that they essentially used the cheapest of the cheap materials to build the place. He said when the renovations were being done the "guts" of the stadium are a disaster and a new stadium would need to be built sooner rather than later. Again, not sure how true this is, but I took it at face value for someone that worked in the stadium.

 

Just wanted to get people's thoughts, reactions, or if we have anyone out there that can chime into how viable a plan this would be. It will definitely be an interesting 3-10 years for Cleveland sports.

Edited February 21, 20205 yr by Stang10

The Indians just renovated their ballpark. They will not be building a new one because they don’t have to, nor should they as they have one of the nicest parks in MLB.