8 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Somehow we even got screwed in ESPNs AI “reimagined” stadiums,  basically takes our current stadium and moves it to an island? 

My favorite part is the waterfront parking lot with 0 road connections

33 minutes ago, FrankRizzo said:

My favorite part is the waterfront parking lot with 0 road connections

like a once great but now syphillis-ridden Al Capone, the Browns are sent to Alcatraz 

Gotta take a ferry to the stadium 

Check out how this roof works at Deutsche Bank Stadium in Frankfort

^ that is freaking amazing and, well, kewl.

 

not sure if a stadium roof like that could handle cleveland snow and weather though?

3 hours ago, mrnyc said:

^ that is freaking amazing and, well, kewl.

 

not sure if a stadium roof like that could handle cleveland snow and weather though?

Read somewhere else that it wouldn’t be able to.

22 hours ago, mrnyc said:

^ that is freaking amazing and, well, kewl.

 

not sure if a stadium roof like that could handle cleveland snow and weather though?

They could just open it on heavy snow days.  

 

But I also feel like the Lake Erie climate combined with the City of Cleveland lack of preventative maintenance would put the lifespan on such a roof at maybe 3-4 years.  

This is a screenshot from a video about NFL stadiums. It was just posted a couple weeks ago, but now I can't find it. But it identified this rendering as what's coming in Cleveland. This was the sharpest I could make it. Looks like it's by the lake with a fixed roof. It could be an old render idk ...

Please no fixed roof :-( 

I never quite got the roof debate. It's not like the Browns stadium gets much business during good weather. Why would it in bad?

3 hours ago, TBideon said:

I never quite got the roof debate. It's not like the Browns stadium gets much business during good weather. Why would it in bad?

There’s no doubt the trend is toward domes. They allow for a much more consistent game and fan experience. In my experience domes often feel depressing and stale. On a beautiful fall day I don’t want to sit inside with a strong echo and the overpowering smell of concessions.  Seeing the game played outside, on natural grass is special and becoming rare. Plenty of “good weather” cities are too hot to play outside. 
 

In theory a retractable roof fixes a lot of these issues. The crazy cost probably kills the option though.  In reality these roofs are almost always closed for games and the shadows are brutal. They ending up feeling like a rarely used sunroof. With the growing number of domes I wouldn’t predict a massive influx of events either. There’s a lot of competition and the list of shows for a 60k crowd is short. 
 

I think the most important aspect of a new stadium is that it remains walkable to the downtown core. We already have parking, public transportation, and a fantastic selection of bars, restaurants, and hotels. The NFL is bigger than ever and even though the number of games is limited each one is an enormous event. All the energy and money that trickles through downtown on a game weekend is important. After traveling a good amount I’d argue that our gameday experience is even great now. I don’t understand some people’s hope for a palace in a suburban parking lot. 

7 hours ago, surfohio said:

Please no fixed roof :-( 

I would have to disagree with this. My two favorite covered stadiums are Ford Field in Detroit and B of A field in Minneapolis. The benefits of a retractable roof IMO just does not equal the cost. Not only will it add about 500m + to the cost, the maintenance and future problems to me are not worth it. The translucent effect of the  ETFE plastic used at the B of A stadium is beautiful and not bothered by the harsh Minneapolis winters. If the money can be found a fixed roof is the way to go.

I would have to disagree with this. My two favorite covered stadiums are Ford Field in Detroit and B of A field in Minneapolis. The benefits of a retractable roof IMO just does not equal the cost. Not only will it add about 500m + to the cost, the maintenance and future problems to me are not worth it. The translucent effect of the  ETFE plastic used at the B of A stadium is beautiful and not bothered by the harsh Minneapolis winters. If the money can be found a fixed roof is the way to go.

Vikings Stadium is by far my favorite structure in the NFL. If our stadium isn't at this level I don't want it lol.

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20 hours ago, freethink said:

This is a screenshot from a video about NFL stadiums. It was just posted a couple weeks ago, but now I can't find it. But it identified this rendering as what's coming in Cleveland. This was the sharpest I could make it. Looks like it's by the lake with a fixed roof. It could be an old render idk ...

This looks like a structure that could/would be built around the current stadium. It also looks like a retractable imo. 
 

Reminds me of American Family Field(formerly Miller Park) In Milwaukee. Just in a rectangular design.

One roof design that I’ve always loved that I think would look super cool scaled up is the Erie, PA cruise boat terminal building. The roof was designed to mimic the Lake Erie waves.

Wouldn't surprise me if we see a cheaper canopy style option as opposed to a fully enclosed dome.

On 11/24/2023 at 6:47 PM, freethink said:

I would have to disagree with this. My two favorite covered stadiums are Ford Field in Detroit and B of A field in Minneapolis. The benefits of a retractable roof IMO just does not equal the cost. Not only will it add about 500m + to the cost, the maintenance and future problems to me are not worth it. The translucent effect of the  ETFE plastic used at the B of A stadium is beautiful and not bothered by the harsh Minneapolis winters. If the money can be found a fixed roof is the way to go.

Really? I find Ford Field to be really dreary inside. Especially when it’s actually nice outside, and you’re wishing the game could be outside on real grass. 
 

anyhow $500m is simply two more Dashawn Watsons haha. 

I would imagine that in the United States this would be astronomically higher but this renovation of Real Madrid 's open air stadium into a multi use stadium with a retractable roof is jaw dropping. The inclusion of shops and restaurants in the upper levels is amazing and creative as well.

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But will we even bother to try and learn from innovation and success stories in Europe?  Unfortunately I am highly skeptical. 
 

My other fear is that Cleveland won’t learn from its own last stadium building episode.  We hurried to build a new Browns stadium that was ultimately, seriously flawed and now requires replacement in just 25 years from its construction. 
 

The decision on whether or not we’re going to build yet another one on our precious lakefront apparently won’t even be decided upon by Cleveland’s citizenry.  
 

Watch @MyPhoneDead’s video - to the end - to be reminded of possibilities- and the power of sports infrastructure to connect people in a city and to produce multiple events - not just football - that can bring  hundreds of millions of dollars to a city. 

Edited December 6, 20231 yr by CleveFan

Also how is that only costing 1.4b, feel like that same thing would cost 3-5b in the US

41 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Also how is that only costing 1.4b, feel like that same thing would cost 3-5b in the US

That could have been the 2014 valuation when the project was getting funded. But this looks even nicer than the Rams place which has a fixed roof and still cost what, $5B? Fixed roof in LA is just so dumb lol. 
 

I would really like to see a cost-benefit analysis of the revenue potential for a multipurpose venue. Is there any reason CLE can’t steal some events from Lucas Oil in Indy? 

5 hours ago, surfohio said:

I would really like to see a cost-benefit analysis of the revenue potential for a multipurpose venue. Is there any reason CLE can’t steal some events from Lucas Oil in Indy? 

Only that Lucas Oil doesn't get THAT many events, and some of them are NCAA related, who are based in Indy. 

 

If more and more northern markets get indoor stadiums, we may see concert tours extend into the early spring and late fall months, but most of them are centered around summer to play in other open-air stadiums. 

 

 

17 hours ago, surfohio said:

But this looks even nicer than the Rams place which has a fixed roof and still cost what, $5B?

 

Pretty sure a large sum of that was land acquisition. 

On 12/5/2023 at 10:55 PM, surfohio said:

 Fixed roof in LA is just so dumb lol. 

It’s not a traditional fixed roof. I’ve been to several events there and the roof is actually somewhat transparent to let natural light in. The sun in LA can be brutal, so I actually prefer not having it being open air and the roof diffuses the light to make it easier to see the action on the field. There is plenty of open space around the top of the seating to let airflow in.  I was at the Stevie Nicks Billy Joel show there in March 2023 and it was raining outside, and there was a light mist of water coming through the roof, so it’s definitely not a solid roof. 
 

I would be fine with Cleveland doing something similar. 

I'm pretty shocked by what seems to be happening in DC. The owner of the Capitals and Wizards is apparently planning to move the teams to nearby suburban Alexandria, which will be part of a new huge development. This would be pretty devastating for downtown DC. The current arena is perfectly placed near numerous Metro lines and drives ton of business to restaurants and hotels.  https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39100527/ted-leonsis-plans-move-wizards-capitals-virginia
 

I post it here because it made me think of the Browns. Does a move like this give them more reason to look outside the city? The motivating factor seems to be about getting land for mixed use development around the arena. 

12 hours ago, coneflower said:

I'm pretty shocked by what seems to be happening in DC. The owner of the Capitals and Wizards is apparently planning to move the teams to nearby suburban Alexandria, which will be part of a new huge development. This would be pretty devastating for downtown DC. The current arena is perfectly placed near numerous Metro lines and drives ton of business to restaurants and hotels.  https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39100527/ted-leonsis-plans-move-wizards-capitals-virginia
 

I post it here because it made me think of the Browns. Does a move like this give them more reason to look outside the city? The motivating factor seems to be about getting land for mixed use development around the arena. 

I’d argue just south of the Potomac Yard neighborhood is very urban so I’d say calling it suburban and trying to compare to our suburbs would be inaccurate. That part of Alexandria could handle the amount of traffic a stadium would bring, but our suburbs would struggle not to mention the nimbys

Edited December 13, 20231 yr by BoomerangCleRes

1 hour ago, coneflower said:

I'm pretty shocked by what seems to be happening in DC. The owner of the Capitals and Wizards is apparently planning to move the teams to nearby suburban Alexandria, which will be part of a new huge development. This would be pretty devastating for downtown DC. The current arena is perfectly placed near numerous Metro lines and drives ton of business to restaurants and hotels.  https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39100527/ted-leonsis-plans-move-wizards-capitals-virginia
 

I post it here because it made me think of the Browns. Does a move like this give them more reason to look outside the city? The motivating factor seems to be about getting land for mixed use development around the arena. 

 

Do you think they'd rather have a mixed use development around their stadium in some cornfields somewhere in Medina or Geauga County, or on the Lakefront of Downtown Cleveland?

7 hours ago, X said:

 

Do you think they'd rather have a mixed use development around their stadium in some cornfields somewhere in Medina or Geauga County, or on the Lakefront of Downtown Cleveland?

I would say I agree but in reading about this potential DC plan, writers elsewhere have cited Atlanta’s ballpark village which is 10 miles from downtown and truly suburban. I looked that up and it looks like Pinecrest or Crocker Park next to a stadium. It seems like what is driving these folks is access to land to be developed. And if Cleveland won’t let them commercialize the land around Browns stadium, it seems plausible they’d go elsewhere to do it. That said, the main obstacle is going to be who pays for it. 

1 hour ago, coneflower said:

And if Cleveland won’t let them commercialize the land around Browns stadium, it seems plausible they’d go elsewhere to do it.

 

Haslam's are about to benefit bigly from the 30 year TIF for the lakefront. But hey, if they want to move to Ashtabula County, more power to them and more public land for us.

54 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

Haslam's are about to benefit bigly from the 30 year TIF for the lakefront. But hey, if they want to move to Ashtabula County, more power to them and more public land for us.

 

Exactly, this is pointless hand-wringing over what isn't even news about the Browns.

I'm not hand-wringing, I just posted an article that is relevant to what is happening here. Why is it crazy to imagine the Haslam's also keeping an eye on this, too? 

 

The point about the TIF debate is fair and I'll be honest I still don't totally understand how that works, but does it address the fact that they also want land around the stadium to develop? The city's lakefront plan is a big park around Browns stadium with a little development. That seems like a philosophical conflict based on what I've read of the two sides' positions. Factor that in with the idea that they want more money from the city, I don't think it outlandish to consider what their other options might be. 

2 hours ago, coneflower said:

I would say I agree but in reading about this potential DC plan, writers elsewhere have cited Atlanta’s ballpark village which is 10 miles from downtown and truly suburban. I looked that up and it looks like Pinecrest or Crocker Park next to a stadium. It seems like what is driving these folks is access to land to be developed. And if Cleveland won’t let them commercialize the land around Browns stadium, it seems plausible they’d go elsewhere to do it. That said, the main obstacle is going to be who pays for it. 

 

I can say confidently that Ball Park Village is not looked at league-wide as something to aspire to. I had to stay there overnight in the last 6 months and locals even joked about how they're lucky the Braves have been excellent, or they'd have "50 acres of scar tissue" on their hands. 

5 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I can say confidently that Ball Park Village is not looked at league-wide as something to aspire to. I had to stay there overnight in the last 6 months and locals even joked about how they're lucky the Braves have been excellent, or they'd have "50 acres of scar tissue" on their hands. 

I have not liked that area. Now I think they have built it up to something, but it would have been much better suited if they built it closer to downtown and integrated it better with downtown. ALthough, I get it that Cobb county is where the money and tix sales were coming from for the Braves. It just does not have the feel of downtown.

 

I remember when they first proposed Ballpark village, they did a story on Cincinnati's banks development as a similar type development that ballpark village could be. The big difference is that the Banks is actually downtown in the urban footprint vs a manufactured urban envelope in the burbs. 

I don't often attend Browns games anymore. But I went Sunday. I was reminded of how enjoyable the experience of attending a game can be. Part of that is walking downtown with a large crowd to and from the games. While Cleveland Browns Stadium has its issues, Cleveland is very fortunate to have all three major sports teams playing downtown. They bring people, business, excitement, and media to downtown. Attending a game or concert outside of downtown just wouldn't be the same. 

2 minutes ago, TMart said:

I don't often attend Browns games anymore. But I went Sunday. I was reminded of how enjoyable the experience of attending a game can be. Part of that is walking downtown with a large crowd to and from the games. While Cleveland Browns Stadium has its issues, Cleveland is very fortunate to have all three major sports teams playing downtown. They bring people, business, excitement, and media to downtown. Attending a game or concert outside of downtown just wouldn't be the same. 

 

To this point... I will not attend concerts at Blossom anymore - doesn't matter who's playing. 

3 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

To this point... I will not attend concerts at Blossom anymore - doesn't matter who's playing. 

Well, I make an exception for Blossom. It is a beautiful facility. Or at least it was the last time I went many years ago. But getting in and out of there was always a PITA. Back in the 80's, we ended up missing the opening act for a concert because we were stuck in traffic. That opening act was Stevie Ray Vaughan. Never got another chance to see him perform. 

Edited December 13, 20231 yr by TMart
Added content.

13 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

To this point... I will not attend concerts at Blossom anymore - doesn't matter who's playing. 

Seeing the orchestra at Blossom in summer is a nice experience though. 

11 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

I’d argue just south of the Potomac Yard neighborhood is very urban so I’d say calling it suburban and trying to compare to our suburbs would be inaccurate. That part of Alexandria could handle the amount of traffic a stadium would bring, but our suburbs would struggle not to mention the nimbys

 

I grew up in NE Ohio and now live in Alexandria, one mile from Potomac Yards.  I think the regions are so different that its impossible to draw parallels that would apply to the Browns' stadium.

 

Alexandria is not a suburb to DC the way municipalities surrounding Cleveland are.  Its population density of 10,000 people per square mile is almost exactly the same as DC's (cite), and twice as dense than the city of Cleveland (cite).  There's far less transit in Cleveland suburbs to support a stadium.  (That being said, there's going to be a lot more vehicle traffic in Alexandria, which I'm not happy about.)

 

Notably Potomac Yard was proposed as a site for a football stadium 15 years ago but shot down.  A basketball arena is a better fit and more urban use, for a few reasons: 1) smaller, 2) less need for surface parking, 3) used all year round as opposed to 10 days a year.  These differences are another reason its hard to compare with a Browns stadium site.

 

The closest parallel of an available site I can think of in Greater Cleveland is the former Brook Park auto plant.  (I think the Browns should move there so a real neighborhood can be built on the waterfront).

 

Ultimately Ted Leonsis is moving to Alexandria because Governor Younkin gave him a better deal that DC, and the Governor wants something to show for his administration.  The fact that there are three state-level jurisdictions here means sports owners can play them off each other.  Thankfully that's not the case in Cleveland, but there is too much balkanization between municipalities.  

49 minutes ago, TMart said:

I don't often attend Browns games anymore. But I went Sunday. I was reminded of how enjoyable the experience of attending a game can be. Part of that is walking downtown with a large crowd to and from the games. While Cleveland Browns Stadium has its issues, Cleveland is very fortunate to have all three major sports teams playing downtown. They bring people, business, excitement, and media to downtown. Attending a game or concert outside of downtown just wouldn't be the same. 

Now, while I do not think a suburban stadium would be the same type of development as say the old Richfield, it still would be a poor move to move things out of downtown. Especially with more people working from home and commuting less to the cities for work, big events are some of the things that draw people to cities and create excitement for the region. They are meant to be the hub of activity. Additionally, a lot more people go to Cavs games or minor league hockey games because of the downtown location.  

As a visitor to Cleveland, I would be more likely to go to a Cavs or Hockey game while I would be in town because they play downtown, and 1) my business/hotel happen to be there so it is an easy walk 2) downtown is a central point that if I were staying in the burbs, I can find as a traveler who may not know his way around the region. Whereas, going to the cornfields of the old Richfield location is not something I would want to do if I were in town for a short stay. 

 

There are not going to be amenities like bars and restaurants that are walkable in the burbs, like you would have downtown. The fact is, that center city has the amenities to do this much better than anywhere in the burbs.  Maybe if you had a place in University Circle, you could create a strong game day environment like that but traffic in that area would be a nightmare on game days for a football crowd. 

 

IF the Browns are talking about doing an enclosed stadium of some sort, building it anywhere but downtown would leave a ton of money and other potential on the table. You would essentially be re-creating the Ohio version of the Pontiac Silverdome or Palace. 

My biggest issue with the Browns stadium (and Bengals too) has been the lack of use the facility gets. You get 10 NFL games a year plus maybe 1-2 playoff games. There tends to be 1-3 concerts a year there and then you get an occasional High School showcase or playoff games.  If whatever gets built can monetize more events, even if they do not bring 70k fans to the area, that is still a positive. 

With a roof you can have the MAC championship games, a final 4 (maybe even a SuperBowl, but that is a one off). You can have a college bowl game that may bring 30k-40k fans for an event. Throw in some more concerts and even a big trade show or two in the offseason and you now create 30-40 event days per year at the facility that will draw a large crowd to downtown. That should be the goal

2 hours ago, TMart said:

I don't often attend Browns games anymore. But I went Sunday. I was reminded of how enjoyable the experience of attending a game can be. Part of that is walking downtown with a large crowd to and from the games. While Cleveland Browns Stadium has its issues, Cleveland is very fortunate to have all three major sports teams playing downtown. They bring people, business, excitement, and media to downtown. Attending a game or concert outside of downtown just wouldn't be the same. 

I agree 100%. 

I'm a Browns fan and my wife is a Bills fan.   

 

I don't hate the Bills, and of course their tailgating scene in the sea of parking lots in Orchard Park is legendary.  But just the thought of driving there, parking in some guys muddy front yard, trudging to the stadium down a busy road past other muddy front yards filled with cards is not appealing.  I'd much rather take the Red Line to downtown Cleveland, walk the bars or end up in the Muni Lot.

 

PS--there have been several Bills fans hit by cars on the streets of Orchard Park after games in recent weeks.   Hardly the kind of press the NFL wants. 

56 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

My biggest issue with the Browns stadium (and Bengals too) has been the lack of use the facility gets. You get 10 NFL games a year plus maybe 1-2 playoff games. There tends to be 1-3 concerts a year there and then you get an occasional High School showcase or playoff games.  If whatever gets built can monetize more events, even if they do not bring 70k fans to the area, that is still a positive. 

With a roof you can have the MAC championship games, a final 4 (maybe even a SuperBowl, but that is a one off). You can have a college bowl game that may bring 30k-40k fans for an event. Throw in some more concerts and even a big trade show or two in the offseason and you now create 30-40 event days per year at the facility that will draw a large crowd to downtown. That should be the goal

As long as Jimmy or private investors pay or give the city/county equity, sure, let's invest away. But the stadium is not really generating revenue from April to September. Cleveland is not getting an abundance of events in good weather - unless the website is not updated regularly - so I don't see why things would change with a roof or dome. For a variety of reasons the subsidize/build-it-and-they-will-come approach doesn't seem to work in Cleveland (Medical Mart, casino, Avenue, Galleria, Flats rapid) for very long.

 

Then again, the U.S. Bank Stadium seems to have been a success, so I could be very wrong.

 

Frankly, we might as well convert Browns stadium into temporary/transitional housing on off months. At least it would get some beneficial use while longterm plans get sorted.

5 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Frankly, we might as well convert Browns stadium into temporary/transitional housing on off months. At least it would get some beneficial use while longterm plans get sorted.

Yeah, I hear it's vacant since Baker Mayfield moved out.

32 minutes ago, TMart said:

Yeah, I hear it's vacant since Baker Mayfield moved out.

 

Baker was using it for his home, anybody want to think about what Deshaun is using it for?  Bring some sanitary wipes and a towel to sit on is all I'm saying folks!

2 hours ago, ryanfrazier said:

 

The closest parallel of an available site I can think of in Greater Cleveland is the former Brook Park auto plant.  (I think the Browns should move there so a real neighborhood can be built on the waterfront).

 

 

The Brook Park site has some attractive features like being close to the Browns HQ, the airport several major highways and the Red Line (which might have to be extended via an elevated right of way through the airport. I would put its terminus at a new park-n-ride next to the I-71/Snow Road interchange (could also be served by Amtrak if the trains went to Tower City/CUT again). 

 

Another possibility that could benefit the city of Cleveland is the Cleveland-owned Highland Park Golf Course. Also, the city of Cleveland could gets a share of revenue from development in Highland Hills' Enterprise Zone. The site is accessible from I-271 and I-480 and the Blue Line (albeit a long walk around the Highland Park Cemetery). So the Blue Line might have to be extended -- might finally cause it to be extended to I-271.

Am I missing something? I thought it was decided that the Browns aren't going to move and will renovate the existing stadium instead...

 

 "“The Browns, as well as other stakeholders on the lakefront, all have been working collaboratively on this effort. What we know from the Haslam Sports Group is they plan to build a comprehensive and integrated stadium,” Pan Huang said." - News 5 Cleveland (from October 24).

 

 

Edited December 13, 20231 yr by Geowizical

I really think the stadium’s presence on the lakefront helps the odds of development including the land bridge. If downtown is thriving in 20-30 years and it’s beneficial to move it and develop the site I’ll be all for it.  Would a dome be nice? Of course but I doubt the willpower or return on investment is there now. 
 

I fail to see what would be gained by building new outside of downtown at this point. I guess Jimmy makes out because he’d own all the parking and bars. For the average fan or out-of-towner that experience would suck. 

4 hours ago, freefourur said:

Seeing the orchestra at Blossom in summer is a nice experience though. 

 

 

Exactly, this cant be beat.  Its gorgeous and you can bring food and drink in, whats not to like. 

3 hours ago, willyboy said:

 

 

Exactly, this cant be beat.  Its gorgeous and you can bring food and drink in, whats not to like. 

 

The traffic, the parking, trying to get out of the parking lots. My wife loves it. I'm not a fan.

4 hours ago, willyboy said:

 

 

Exactly, this cant be beat.  Its gorgeous and you can bring food and drink in, whats not to like. 

Now that I’m older, Nautica is my favorite music venue. I just can’t do the traffic nightmare in and out of Blossom. And the setting of Nuatica is 10/10.

 

Now unless the new stadium site is the West Bank parking lot mecca, we better get back on topic.