2 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

I think it is somewhere further up in this thread, but someone mentioned doing a land swap where the post office buildings move to the Brook Park site, and the new Browns Stadium goes on the post office site. I have no idea if something like this is really a possibility, but I think this is the best location for a new stadium regardless. It would have a new stop built for all 3 rail lines, and would fit in perfectly with the potential blue/green/waterfront loop going up E30th.  Here is SoFi just copy and pasted at the same scale. 

How big of a deal would it be for the Post Office to complete this kind of land swap?  And certainly public money would have to be put out to build a new facility in Brookpark?   Not to mention the Postal Workers union would probably fight this tooth and nail and have to be compensated bigly to go along with this... 

3 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

Agreed.  That's why I think they will ultimately end up in Brook Park.  He sees an extra $1-2 million in parking per game/event and that's all they will focus on.

 

I just don't see this village thing really coming together either.  How many people will really want to live in-between the airport, the stadium, and 30,000+ parking spaces while basically on an island cut off from the rest of the city? Then you just have another car dependent mall. Unless he can somehow bring an Ikea or something to the site as well, I think the place will be empty most of the time.

 

Some ballparks villages don't have residential, and others aren't residential-heavy. 

 

2 hours ago, TDi said:

I am still holding out hope for this. There's 80+ acres here. The Haslam's could do a lot with that and would control all of it. Plus maybe the city offers up some of the development rights on the Lakefront to mitigate the loss of parking revenue they would get in Brookpark.  Having all of the sports facilities near each other would also guarantee foot traffic all year round.

 

The State of Ohio doesn't believe the city should have any say whatsoever with regards to leases of lake-reclaimed land (aka submerged land). The state believes only it can make that call.

 

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

Great photo -- look at how much real estate we have given to two rail lines vs. almost 4 parallel roadways. 

 

We could make more space here -- end I-77 at I-490 and make it a boulevard to the north, and consolidate Orange Ave and Woodland with the new I-77 boulevard alongside (north/east of?) the stadium. 

 

And build more parking, of course....

 

Once I proposed swapping the locations of the rail transit lines with I-77. But I like this idea better. You could run the rail lines in the median of an "I-77 boulevard" into downtown.

3 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

Agreed.  That's why I think they will ultimately end up in Brook Park.  He sees an extra $1-2 million in parking per game/event and that's all they will focus on.

 

I just don't see this village thing really coming together either.  How many people will really want to live in-between the airport, the stadium, and 30,000+ parking spaces while basically on an island cut off from the rest of the city? Then you just have another car dependent mall. Unless he can somehow bring an Ikea or something to the site as well, I think the place will be empty most of the time.

Currently not a fan of the Post Office location, which is not to say I don't want a new dome stadium in the City of Cleveland.

 

Again, where is the residential component of any ballpark village coming from? I haven't heard or read anything about apartments etc. being in the Brook 
Park village.  What would the PO site village consist of: a smattering of bars, maybe a couple hotels, a little retail; same as Brook Park.  Further, an IKEA would potentially work better, as would an expanded retail footprint, in Brook Park, not the PO site.  I'm not sure if any decent amount of retail would work at either site though. The PO would be as empty most of the time as Brook Park if retail is not the full-time anchor for either location.

 

Both locations will be car/parking dominated regardless of Rapid Transit access and Brook Park will have the potential Amtrak Station if this 3C's train line happens.  Brook Park will be adjacent to Hopkins Airport and the PO could improve Rapid Transit use if the WFL could be finally looped through downtown itself; I have my doubts though about RTA's current ''leadership''.

 

Also, when folks use the term ''suburb'' today, one thinks of the outer suburbs, not Brook Park.  The Brook Park site looks almost as industrial as the PO site.  The City of Cleveland is on the north side of Brook Park Avenue so it's not like a dome there is down by Strongsville-Brunswick, set out in some remote location. The PO site isn't exactly connected to downtown.

 

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by Oxford19

4 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

I think it is somewhere further up in this thread, but someone mentioned doing a land swap where the post office buildings move to the Brook Park site, and the new Browns Stadium goes on the post office site. I have no idea if something like this is really a possibility, but I think this is the best location for a new stadium regardless. It would have a new stop built for all 3 rail lines, and would fit in perfectly with the potential blue/green/waterfront loop going up E30th.  Here is SoFi just copy and pasted at the same scale. 

 

 

 

 

This would be so much better than Brook Park for attracting big events too.  I just don't see the potential some other fans are seeing in the Brook Park site.  Suburb stadiums just don't get Super Bowls and Final Fours.  Glendale is the only one to do so, but they have Arizona weather and frequently host big events.  You need to at least be close to where all of the hotels are, not a 20 minute highway drive or train ride away.

Alright I couldn't leave that idea alone so here is some more stuff added.

 

That little development next to the stadium is The Edge, The Lumen, and all of the E4th buildings that barely put a dent into the available space nearby. There are still 30 acres for parking, the muni lot could still be used with the waterfront line in it's current form, or the Downtown loop extension.  Added the Healthline and B-Line options because I really want those too.  This city has so much potential....

 

Host the Rock Hall Induction Ceremony in it every September or October and have 3 or 4 major acts fill the dome, and other small and mid sized acts in other venues around town in the 2 weeks leading up to it. Kind of like a Montreux Jazz Festival style event.  It would fill up every hotel room in the city for a week every year.

 

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by PlanCleveland
Added Rock Hall note

While interesting, any theoretical stadium proposals that require downgrading portions of the interstate highway system simply aren't going to happen. Even if the City and County were fully behind it, it's not realistic. 

 

I still personally like the site proposed to Art Modell (the 10+5.5 acre on both sides of the track in the picture above). That seems to have fallen out of favor for reasons unbeknownst to me. The post office site seems to be the next best after that. If the Haslams want a new build near downtown there are a few other options beyond that, it just seems like the Haslams don't want that. 

10 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

Again, where is the residential component of any ballpark village coming from? I haven't heard or read anything about apartments etc. being in the Brook 
Park village.  What would the PO site village consist of: a smattering of bars, maybe a couple hotels, a little retail; same as Brook Park.  Further, an IKEA would potentially work better, as would an expanded retail footprint, in Brook Park, not the PO site.  I'm not sure if any decent amount of retail would work at either site though. The PO would be as empty most of the time as Brook Park if retail is the full-time anchor for either locations.

 

 

20 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Some ballparks villages don't have residential, and others aren't residential-heavy. 

 

Yeah this is just my thinking, which could be wrong, because I just can't imagine many businesses surviving at the Brook Park site unless 1000 people live on site.  There just won't be enough people visiting to keep all of the retail, bars, and restaurants open on the 345 days a year when there isn't a large event going on.  Most of the ballpark villages that exist now are still close to or in downtowns with other things nearby already.  Foxborough is the only one I can really think of that is the same set up.

Is it realistic to have the stadium at the post office site while being adjacent to a correctional facility? Can this be addressed? An game day aerial shot on national T.V. would not be a good look.

 

 

17 minutes ago, dski44 said:

Is it realistic to have the stadium at the post office site while being adjacent to a correctional facility? Can this be addressed? An game day aerial shot on national T.V. would not be a good look.

 

 

 

It looks like a subdevelopment from above, and they'd be at an even higher shot than this...

 

19 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

 

 

Yeah this is just my thinking, which could be wrong, because I just can't imagine many businesses surviving at the Brook Park site unless 1000 people live on site.  There just won't be enough people visiting to keep all of the retail, bars, and restaurants open on the 345 days a year when there isn't a large event going on.  Most of the ballpark villages that exist now are still close to or in downtowns with other things nearby already.  Foxborough is the only one I can really think of that is the same set up.

Yet, the Brook Park site would still have better expanded retail potential success than the PO site whether it has -0- or 1,000 people living on site or not.  Having 1,000 people on site wouldn't attract any retail regardless let alone be the source of its survival.  An IKEA could work at BP though due to its location, no on-site residents needed. 

 

 

 

Maybe it's just me, but all jokes aside, I think the post office area is plenty big. We've been using SoFi as a placeholder, but SoFi is a freakishly big stadium. Like, it's about twice as large as Allegiant, Mercedes Benz, and U.S. Bank stadiums all of which are pretty nice and new.

 

The plot currently occupied by post office and its parking (this doesn't include the Guardians staff parking or any area of the hill leading down to the river or any disconnected parcels) is almost 40 acres (see below).

 

 

Compare this to Allegiant in Las Vegas, which is 64 acres and includes a crap-ton of surface parking 

 

 

And just to make it a fair comparison, here's Allegiant stadium but I'm only outlining 38 acres of land.

 

 

It just wouldn't be that hard to have a stadium, some "ballpark village," some structure parking, and even some lot parking all fit in 40 acres.

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by LlamaLawyer

^That and the stadium would technically be in Central, which has been long neglected but has rebounded a bit in population. It would be great for the city of Cleveland if the stadium was located there. 

38 minutes ago, dski44 said:

Is it realistic to have the stadium at the post office site while being adjacent to a correctional facility? Can this be addressed? An game day aerial shot on national T.V. would not be a good look.

They could move the correctional facility elsewhere and open up that space for parking or ballpark village.

[changed my mind about putting this here]

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by LlamaLawyer

20 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Maybe it's just me, but all jokes aside, I think the post office area is plenty big. We've been using SoFi as a placeholder, but SoFi is a freakishly big stadium. Like, it's about twice as large as Allegiant, Mercedes Benz, and U.S. Bank stadiums all of which are pretty nice and new.

 

The plot currently occupied by post office and its parking (this doesn't include the Guardians staff parking or any area of the hill leading down to the river or any disconnected parcels) is almost 40 acres (see below).

 

 

Compare this to Allegiant in Las Vegas, which is 64 acres and includes a crap-ton of surface parking 

 

 

And just to make it a fair comparison, here's Allegiant stadium but I'm only outlining 38 acres of land.

 

 

It just wouldn't be that hard to have a stadium, some "ballpark village," some structure parking, and even some lot parking all fit in 40 acres.

The 5 acre Guardians employee lot could functionally be considered a part of this total. Even if it remains surface parking, it should still be able to serve the majority of Browns home games. 

 

Did a quick look at the Heinz field, the area surrounding Heinz field looks to be about 53 acres. Paycor Stadium looks to be about 46 acres. Currently the area supporting Browns Stadium is about 45 acres, so if you add in the Guardians lot, which seems very reasonable for most Brown's games, you have a very reasonable and normal amount of space for supporting a football stadium. 

 

--

 

Also, I'm amused by the concept of bundling the Browns and Ikea together in Brook Park. While probably unlikely, it's low-key a good Idea. 

Doesn't IKEA prefer building their stores on virgin land?

1 hour ago, dski44 said:

Is it realistic to have the stadium at the post office site while being adjacent to a correctional facility? Can this be addressed? An game day aerial shot on national T.V. would not be a good look.

 

 

It's a correctional facility! lol....oh, it has to go and its relocation must be part of any deal for a domed stadium there for sure.

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by Oxford19

21 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Doesn't IKEA prefer building their stores on virgin land?

It may prefer viging land but does have some locations in urban city areas.  Regardless, the IKEA thing was only mentioned as a type of year-round draw a BP site would need.

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by Oxford19

33 minutes ago, Ethan said:

The 5 acre Guardians employee lot could functionally be considered a part of this total. Even if it remains surface parking, it should still be able to serve the majority of Browns home games. 

 

Did a quick look at the Heinz field, the area surrounding Heinz field looks to be about 53 acres. Paycor Stadium looks to be about 46 acres. Currently the area supporting Browns Stadium is about 45 acres, so if you add in the Guardians lot, which seems very reasonable for most Brown's games, you have a very reasonable and normal amount of space for supporting a football stadium. 

 

--

 

Also, I'm amused by the concept of bundling the Browns and Ikea together in Brook Park. While probably unlikely, it's low-key a good Idea. 

It's actually not a bad idea...lol...Cleveland will have its long-sought after (for some reason) IKEA.  Additionally, although IKEA may like ''virgin land'', it definitely wants excellent highway access locations...BP again.

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by Oxford19

1 hour ago, dski44 said:

Is it realistic to have the stadium at the post office site while being adjacent to a correctional facility? Can this be addressed? An game day aerial shot on national T.V. would not be a good look.

 

 

To be fair, it's a "Pre-Release Center" for female prisoners about to be transitioned back into society.   So that counts as residential in the stadium village, RIGHT? 

Will we see any overhead shots of the stadium if it's by the airport due to airspace restrictions? Probably just aerials of downtown like there is now. 

After walking around downtown the past couple days and taking in all the Final Four buildup I’m wondering what big, national, and multi-day events would be like hosted in Brookpark. 
 

How many hotel rooms could realistically be included in such a project? For any decent sized event I’d think the majority of guests would stay downtown. The back and forth would make it way less desirable than places like Detroit and Indy. 
 

I fear those without a car have the potential of getting trapped in Brookpark. The Post Office site is such an improvement. 

No wonder this is the most popular thread on UrbanOhio. We've combined the stadium issue with IKEA.

 

Downgrading or removing highways where deemed divisive is now a policy with funding at the Federal Highway Administration. It is happening in multiple urban areas around the country (e.g. Portland, Milwaukee, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo to name a few off the top of my head).

48 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

To be fair, it's a "Pre-Release Center" for female prisoners about to be transitioned back into society.   So that counts as residential in the stadium village, RIGHT? 

Too bad. Here I was thinking "The Longest Yard". That facility's prison team would, hands down, have the best stadium to play in!

36 minutes ago, CLEmuppet said:

How many hotel rooms could realistically be included in such a project? For any decent sized event I’d think the majority of guests would stay downtown. The back and forth would make it way less desirable than places like Detroit and Indy. 

This is my biggest fear with the Brook Park site as well. Even with a shiny new stadium, it'd likely still be the 5th best football stadium/major event space just in the Midwest behind Indy, Detroit, Minneapolis, and whatever Chicago is about to build simply due to its location and proximity to hotels.

38 minutes ago, CLEmuppet said:

After walking around downtown the past couple days and taking in all the Final Four buildup I’m wondering what big, national, and multi-day events would be like hosted in Brookpark. 
 

How many hotel rooms could realistically be included in such a project? For any decent sized event I’d think the majority of guests would stay downtown. The back and forth would make it way less desirable than places like Detroit and Indy. 
 

I fear those without a car have the potential of getting trapped in Brookpark. The Post Office site is such an improvement. 

Agreed, a domed stadium should be better integrated into downtown....the PO site is iffy on that but close-in, no doubt. 

 

Lakefront is the best location for downtown...just walk over to it.  A high-rise hotel akin to how the Progressive HDQ was set-up with maybe a couple low to mid-rises directly on the lakefront would work.  Long-term talk (of course) about a hotel between Rock Hall-Science Center, that would be one and another closer or adjacent to stadium.  Toss in some more bars/restaurants along the harbor/stadium etc...good to go.

 

A land bridge or pedestrian bridge from Mall C is a given whether or not the new stadium goes on the lakefront.

7 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

This is my biggest fear with the Brook Park site as well. Even with a shiny new stadium, it'd likely still be the 5th best football stadium/major event space just in the Midwest behind Indy, Detroit, Minneapolis, and whatever Chicago is about to build simply due to its location and proximity to hotels.

Cleveland needs to get a new domed stadium in its core and closer-in than the Post Office site.

27 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

Cleveland needs to get a new domed stadium in its core and closer-in than the Post Office site.

The post office site is actually a little bit closer to Progressive Field than the current Browns stadium is. 

2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The post office site is actually a little bit closer to Progressive Field than the current Browns stadium is. 

Not sure why Progressive Field location to a PO site dome stadium, which is outside of and isolated from the downtown core, is important.  Progressive Field is on the southern edge of the core and the Browns Stadium on the northern edge of it, and, with a land bridge or pedestrian bridge from Mall C, it's a seamless walk.

 

Ideally, one could walk from Progressive Field up E 4th through The Arcade, across Superior, through the Eastman Gardens/E 6th/E 3rd. across The Mall, over to the Stadium/Lakefront; or PF--The Euclid Arcade--E 6th-over to The Mall--to the Lakefront; of course this assumes there's the land bridge/ped bridge in place.  The issue today is that everyone pretty much has to walk down Interstate E 9th Street from Lakeside to the Rock Hall and keep a sharp eye out for criss-cross traffic, left turn lanes, egress/ingress from parking garages and lots, and deal with parking and cars on the pier itself.  It's bad. 

 

Try walking from, say, the new Fidelity Hotel coming in on E 6th or, for that matter, any hotel in the core...to the PO site. Not happening.

 

Cleveland's downtown is known for being very walkable.  During Guardians/Cavs overlapping with the Browns, out of towners can walk over to Rocket Mortgage Arena or PF on Saturday afternoon or evening, then walk over to the lakefront on Sunday for the Browns game.

 

The only thing that would help with this PO site is a WFL loop; but this would have to cut through the core before heading west by CSU maybe before heading south to the current tracks but...ehh.  Also, that Correctional Facility plopped on E 30th Street is a deal breaker. 

 

Walking to and from our stadiums is a key feature of downtown.    That's why I stated that a new dome stadium needs to be in the core, the PO site is close-in but not in the core with no reference to its location to PF.

Edited April 5, 20241 yr by Oxford19

4 hours ago, KJP said:

No wonder this is the most popular thread on UrbanOhio. We've combined the stadium issue with IKEA.

 

I mean they are looking for a new name sponsor for the stadium right?? IKEA Field anyone???

5 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

This is my biggest fear with the Brook Park site as well. Even with a shiny new stadium, it'd likely still be the 5th best football stadium/major event space just in the Midwest behind Indy, Detroit, Minneapolis, and whatever Chicago is about to build simply due to its location and proximity to hotels.

And keep in mind ALOT of cities have or are about to embark on giant stadium projects, From Chicago to Nashville to Cleveland to Cincinnati even the Pittsburgh Steelers ownership recently have started talking about a future big renovation . My point is pretty much all of the NFL venues in the Midwest in the next 5-7 years are going to get rebuilt or heavily renovated. So there isn’t going to be much competitive advantage among the cities in regards to the facility itself. So location/ accessibility/ surrounding amenities is going to be the tie breakers.

Edited April 5, 20241 yr by 646empire

What would be The Haslam's plan if the county and cities refuse to extend the sin tax to help finance either stadiums? With The Art Modell Law in play could Clevelanders buy the team and just play in the current stadium as is? The Green Bay Packers have managed well playing in there stadium for many years without complaints

Edited April 5, 20241 yr by dave2017

Unfortunately the Packers deal can't be replicated; ownership groups are now limited to 24 (25?) people. Also, Green Bay has a unique arrangement where the profits must be reinvested into the team rather than go to the stateholders/owners. Moot point here, but if you can't profit what you own, there'd be some resistance if that were an option.

 

The Art Modell law gives Cleveland six months to find a buyer before Jimmy and Dee can look in different cities, regions, states for relocation. Unless the Lerners or Ratners (maybe the Wexners?) are willing to write a big check, I'd be bearish on that happening.

 

Edited April 5, 20241 yr by TBideon

I'm curious about the specifics of the Art Modell law. NFL teams don't go up for sale very often. There may be interested buyers, but it could depend on how forcing (or not) the language of the law is. To ask a stupid question, what if the Haslams put the Brown's up for sale with an asking price of 3 trillion dollars? They have technically put the team up for sale, but obviously not in good faith. I know there are some lawyers on this forum, maybe on of them has useful info on the specifics of the process in the law?

18 minutes ago, TBideon said:

.

 

The Art Modell law gives Cleveland six months to find a buyer before Jimmy and Dee can look in different cities, regions, states for relocation. Unless the Lerners or Ratners (maybe the Wexners?) are willing to write a big check, I'd be bearish on that happening.

 

Everyone wants an nfl team that’s more than enough time. Lebron would likely have heavy interest 

Perhaps, but do most of them want a team in Cleveland? Plenty of cities - Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, Portland, Toronto, London - would show interest and could provide significant incentives.

 

Even with a new owner considering remaining in Cleveland, the location and incentive package problems would be major complications.

 

 

Edited April 5, 20241 yr by TBideon

Allow me to stop this train before it flies any further off the rails... 

 

The Browns are not leaving Cuyahoga County. Just stop. 

7 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Allow me to stop this train before it flies any further off the rails... 

 

The Browns are not leaving Cuyahoga County. Just stop. 

23 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

Suburb stadiums just don't get Super Bowls and Final Fours.

Suburban Super Bowl Locations since 2013... 2013, Glendale, AZ, 2014, East Rutherford, NJ, 2015, Glendale AZ, 2016, Santa Clara, CA, 2020, Miami Gardens FL, 2021, Tampa, FL (it's technically Tampa, but it's the suburbs) 2022, Inglewood, CA, 2023, Glendale, AZ, 2024 Paradise, NV, 2026, Santa Clara, CA, 2027, Inglewood, CA

11 minutes ago, Dino said:

Suburban Super Bowl Locations since 2013... 2013, Glendale, AZ, 2014, East Rutherford, NJ, 2015, Glendale AZ, 2016, Santa Clara, CA, 2020, Miami Gardens FL, 2021, Tampa, FL (it's technically Tampa, but it's the suburbs) 2022, Inglewood, CA, 2023, Glendale, AZ, 2024 Paradise, NV, 2026, Santa Clara, CA, 2027, Inglewood, CA

 

Good list, and points out why we're getting 1 Superbowl, tops- dome or no dome.  The NFL wants the Superbowls held in Sunbelt locations.  Only one of those Superbowls happened in the Northern half of the US.

The NFL has a pretty even distribution of where the stadiums are located.  Some are downtown, some are in the suburbs, and some are in the city, but not downtown.  Of the last 10 NFL stadiums built, 3 are downtown (ATL, MN., IND.) and 6 are in the suburbs (LV, LA, SF, NY, AZ, TX).  Only 1 is in the city, but not downtown (PHI).  4 of the 10 are very close to the airport (LV, LA, SF, PHIL).  The last 2 stadiums built we Allegiant and SoFi.  Both are suburban and both are very, very close to the airport.  The two before that, Atlanta and Minn. are downtown.  So I don't see any clear trends at all, but it was still a fun way to kill 30 minutes!

2 minutes ago, X said:

The NFL wants the Superbowls held in Sunbelt locations

Agreed.  Only 4 northern cities have ever hosted a Super Bowl for a combined 6 Super Bowls out of 58

6 minutes ago, X said:

 

Good list, and points out why we're getting 1 Superbowl, tops- dome or no dome.  The NFL wants the Superbowls held in Sunbelt locations.  Only one of those Superbowls happened in the Northern half of the US.

We also don't have nearly enough hotel rooms. 

6 minutes ago, Dino said:

 The last 2 stadiums built we Allegiant and SoFi.  Both are suburban and both are very, very close to the airport. 

Allegiant is on the Vegas strip?   While not "downtown" Vegas, I wouldn't call it suburban either...

21 minutes ago, Dino said:

Suburban Super Bowl Locations since 2013... 2013, Glendale, AZ, 2014, East Rutherford, NJ, 2015, Glendale AZ, 2016, Santa Clara, CA, 2020, Miami Gardens FL, 2021, Tampa, FL (it's technically Tampa, but it's the suburbs) 2022, Inglewood, CA, 2023, Glendale, AZ, 2024 Paradise, NV, 2026, Santa Clara, CA, 2027, Inglewood, CA

I mean I know technically my suburb statement isn't exactly true, but none of these stadiums would be similar to the Brook Park site.  These "suburb" sites are in the biggest metro areas on the continent and surrounded by density in every direction, and the Vegas stadium is right on the strip.  They're cities that regularly host major events, not Cleveland.  The population and amenities near the stadium sites are drastically different.  Also, all except East Rutherford aren't in the middle of an actual winter during the Super Bowl, making it even worse that the stadium is so far from all of the hotels and actual city where people would spend most of their time.

11 minutes ago, Dino said:

Agreed.  Only 4 northern cities have ever hosted a Super Bowl for a combined 6 Super Bowls out of 58

Early February in the Midwest/Northeast is no joke. 2 degrees in Minnesota 2018,  26 degrees Minneapolis in 1992, 30 degrees in Detroit 2006, 44 degrees in Indianapolis 2012.  Hell, it was 34 degrees during the Atlanta icestorm in 2000.

 

Doesn't make for a fun week of events even with a dome.

 

 

Cleveland isn't getting a Super Bowl, dome or no dome. Look at how far away some delegations were during the RNC as an example of how few hotel rooms we have, oh, and February in Cleveland. Recent cold climate SB's (MIN and NYC) had a lukewarm reception by attendees.

 

The cost of hosting a SB is insanely expensive on host cities, too. Would you rather: Cle Sports Commission/Destination Cle aim for reasonable (and some marquee!) events or put all their eggs into one single basket.

13 hours ago, Oxford19 said:

Not sure why Progressive Field location to a PO site dome stadium, which is outside of and isolated from the downtown core, is important.  Progressive Field is on the southern edge of the core and the Browns Stadium on the northern edge of it, and, with a land bridge or pedestrian bridge from Mall C, it's a seamless walk.

 

Ideally, one could walk from Progressive Field up E 4th through The Arcade, across Superior, through the Eastman Gardens/E 6th/E 3rd. across The Mall, over to the Stadium/Lakefront; or PF--The Euclid Arcade--E 6th-over to The Mall--to the Lakefront; of course this assumes there's the land bridge/ped bridge in place.  The issue today is that everyone pretty much has to walk down Interstate E 9th Street from Lakeside to the Rock Hall and keep a sharp eye out for criss-cross traffic, left turn lanes, egress/ingress from parking garages and lots, and deal with parking and cars on the pier itself.  It's bad. 

 

Try walking from, say, the new Fidelity Hotel coming in on E 6th or, for that matter, any hotel in the core...to the PO site. Not happening.

 

Cleveland's downtown is known for being very walkable.  During Guardians/Cavs overlapping with the Browns, out of towners can walk over to Rocket Mortgage Arena or PF on Saturday afternoon or evening, then walk over to the lakefront on Sunday for the Browns game.

 

The only thing that would help with this PO site is a WFL loop; but this would have to cut through the core before heading west by CSU maybe before heading south to the current tracks but...ehh.  Also, that Correctional Facility plopped on E 30th Street is a deal breaker. 

 

Walking to and from our stadiums is a key feature of downtown.    That's why I stated that a new dome stadium needs to be in the core, the PO site is close-in but not in the core with no reference to its location to PF.

 

Its like a 1/2 mile further to the post office site from Public Square than it is the lake front. The walk to the post office site currently isn't nice, but it will take infrastructure improvements to make the walk to the lakefront more pleasant too... to treat the PO site as out on an unwalkable island is a bit overstated. 

Edited April 5, 20241 yr by Luke_S

21 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I mean I know technically my suburb statement isn't exactly true, but none of these stadiums would be similar to the Brook Park site.  These "suburb" sites are in the biggest metro areas on the continent and surrounded by density in every direction, and the Vegas stadium is right on the strip.  They're cities that regularly host major events, not Cleveland.  The population and amenities near the stadium sites are drastically different.  Also, all except East Rutherford aren't in the middle of an actual winter during the Super Bowl, making it even worse that the stadium is so far from all of the hotels and actual city where people would spend most of their time.

I think these sites are all very similar to the Brook Park site.  Surrounded by surface parking and low rise development.  Aside from Allegiant, none of these stadiums are surrounded by tons of hotels and restaurants, maybe a few, but they are legitimately in the suburbs.  Some are very close to a major airport and/or highway.  However, I agree with everything else you are saying. But the location of a new stadium in Cleveland isn't changing any of that.  Neither is a dome.  Residents, tourists, corporations don't keep picking Atlanta over Cleveland (I'm saying this to be funny!) because Cleveland lacks a domed stadium downtown.  A few Waffle Houses in Cleveland wouldn't hurt though.

28 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Cleveland isn't getting a Super Bowl, dome or no dome. Look at how far away some delegations were during the RNC as an example of how few hotel rooms we have, oh, and February in Cleveland. Recent cold climate SB's (MIN and NYC) had a lukewarm reception by attendees.

 

The cost of hosting a SB is insanely expensive on host cities, too. Would you rather: Cle Sports Commission/Destination Cle aim for reasonable (and some marquee!) events or put all their eggs into one single basket.

Agreed it's improbable, but Detroit did get one, and that was thought to be very unlikely for similar, among some unsaid, reasons.

 

 

Edited April 5, 20241 yr by TBideon

23 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I mean I know technically my suburb statement isn't exactly true, but none of these stadiums would be similar to the Brook Park site.  These "suburb" sites are in the biggest metro areas on the continent and surrounded by density in every direction, and the Vegas stadium is right on the strip.  They're cities that regularly host major events, not Cleveland.  The population and amenities near the stadium sites are drastically different.  Also, all except East Rutherford aren't in the middle of an actual winter during the Super Bowl, making it even worse that the stadium is so far from all of the hotels and actual city where people would spend most of their time.

Population within a 10 mile radius of the stadium....

Brook Park 0.65MM 9.5 miles from city center

Post Office 0.85MM

 

Warm Weather cities...

NJ 4.9MM

Santa Clara 1.6MM near frequent rail connections to entire Bay Area with nearly 8MM residents

LA 3MM

Glendale 1.3MM

Tampa 0.75MM 3.3 miles from city center

Miami 1.9MM

 

Cold weather cities...

NJ 4.9MM

Indy 0.79MM

Minneapolis 1.2MM

 

 

No matter where the stadium goes, getting a Super Bowl or Final Four type of event will still be very tough. But I think it's definitely not happening at the Brook Park site.