January 25, 200718 yr Aside from the stunning silence on mass transit, it should come as no surprise that New Urbanism or Smart Growth was also totally left out. Either one would easily lower a significant amount of gas we use, nevermind using less gas or using alternative fuels. Well yeah those were left out!!! If we can't get our government to talk about transit/the lack thereof...then we sure as heck aren't going to get them to discuss smart growth principles and the benefits of higher densities (that would be communism...don't you know).
January 25, 200718 yr ^ Well, how could you possibly be against the American Dream™? You get to live in a cookie-cutter house with cookie-cutter neighbors and there are more strip malls than you can poke a stick at. Who cares about individuality, all that 'be who you want to be' crap and the pursuit of happiness if you're not happy being like everyone else. We should all have hammer & sickle avatars, bunch of red commies we are.
January 25, 200718 yr I see our inefficient landuse as a visual symbol of how our United States government loves to spread itself too thin. We need to raise gas prices. The problem is that gas prices are probably the number one thing people love to bitch about and politicians will not want to do that. If gas prices increase I don't think it's going to drastically increase mass transit ridership as much as people on this site think it is; I think it's going to cause most people to trade in their SUVs for something smaller, which is still great. Knowing GM and Ford though, I'm sure they'll recognize this trend 5 years after it happens.
January 25, 200718 yr ^Well ford had a loss of 12.7 billion this year. They might not be around in 5 years.
January 27, 200718 yr I just think all of this ethanol talk is misguided at best. It's being driven by the lobbyists and pork loving politicians in congress. The energy returned on energy invested is marginal at best (maybe even negative), and there are some ethical considerations for putting something in your fuel tank that could feed a village for a few days. And as of this spring, all gasoline in the US has either 10 or 15% ethanol as an additive. This replaced MTBE due to it's harmful effects on groundwater supplies. I wouldn't compare E15 with E85 and would definitely check with your auto manufacturer. The only way to make ethanol work to any real degree is to do all of the following: 1. Provide quality transportation alternatives to driving-- intercity passenger rail, streetcars, commuter rail, intercity bus services that are better than Greyhound. 2. Provide sufficient and efficient intermodal connections between all modes of transport. 3. Encourage development patterns that are less auto-dependent so people don't have to drive as much. 4. Increase motorfuel taxes severalfold. 5. Lightweight cars through carbon-fiber construction and use hybrid drive systems in them. This would get mileage up to 80 mpg or more. 6. Switch to cellulosic ethanol instead of grain and sugar. Bottom line is that we need to reduce driving needs by about 70%. Otherwise we're just pissing into the wind.
January 27, 200718 yr Well yeah those were left out!!! If we can't get our government to talk about transit/the lack thereof...then we sure as heck aren't going to get them to discuss smart growth principles and the benefits of higher densities (that would be communism...don't you know). What's more communistic-- providing alternatives so people actually have real choices? Or the government just building roads and mandating auto-centric sprawl through zoning codes? Who are the real commies? Wendell Cox, Randal O'Toole et. al. That's who. A few great quotes from pp. 40-41 of Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution by Paul Hawken et. al: "[Transportation] is the most subsidized and centrally planned sector of the majority of the world's economies-- at least for such favored modes as road transport and aviation. It has the least true competition among available modes and the most untruthful prices... "The problem of excessive automobility is pervasive. Congestion is smothering mobility and mobility is corroding community. People demand a lot of travel and have few non-automotive ways to do it. This effectively immobilizes everyone too old, young, infirm, or poor to drive-- a group that includes one third of all Americans, and whose numbers are rising. Street life and the public realm are sacrificed as we meet our neighbors only through windshields. As architect Andres Duany puts it: this stratification 'reduces social interaction to aggressive competition for square feet of asphalt... "Many of the social costs of driving have less to do with fuel use than with congestion, traffic delays, accidents, roadway damage, land use, and other side effects of driving itself. Those social costs approach a trillion dollars a year-- about 1/8 of America's gross domestic product. Because that figure is not reflected in drivers' direct costs, the expenses are in effect subsidized by everyone"
January 27, 200718 yr ^just in case you don't know....I was being facetious. Planners are often labeled as 'communists' or 'socialists'...so I often refer to anything that is done for the public good as being 'communist' or 'socialist'.
January 27, 200718 yr An editorial on Bush's speech regarding energy conservation shows the Dispatch is just as clueless as Bush and I find the Detroit statement to be faulty. Get moving Congress should consider expanding on Bush’s energy-conservation plan Saturday, January 27, 2007 President Bush’s call for better fuel efficiency in cars and trucks is a good starting point for discussion by a Congress that has declared its intent to move toward energy independence and cleaner air. The call is overdue. Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency standards for passenger cars remain at the 1985 level of 27.5 miles per gallon. New standards for light trucks, approved last year, raise the bar only slightly, from 21.6 mpg in 2006 to 24 mpg in 2011. Full editorial at: http://www.dispatch.com/editorials-story.php?story=dispatch/2007/01/27/20070127-A8-04.html
January 27, 200718 yr Of course, I agree that people should be given the option to have a choice as to what kind of neighborhood they want to live in. In fact, where people have had the choice regarding New Urbanist developments, they have been met with overwhelming popularity resulting in the rich getting 1st dibs on them. Yet despite the very high desirability, where are such projects happening in Ohio? There are obviously a good number of people who don't want to live in sprawl that aren't being paid any attention. However, I have my doubts about even the Democrats will push for a good amount of smart growth/sustainable development simply because I haven't heard them being vocal on this issue.
January 28, 200718 yr ^just in case you don't know....I was being facetious. Planners are often labeled as 'communists' or 'socialists'...so I often refer to anything that is done for the public good as being 'communist' or 'socialist'. Actually, I caught that. It just grates on me that those who do the labeling you describe have such a shallow double standard for what's social engineering and what isn't. I was venting on the O'Toole's and Cox's of the world.
January 31, 200718 yr Perfect article (editorial) for this discussion... http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/editorials/hc-bushtransit.artjan31,0,6414983.story?coll=hc-headlines-editorials
April 5, 200718 yr From the 1/25/07 Blade: Area auto dealers report mixed reactions to E85 cars By JULIE M. McKINNON BLADE BUSINESS WRITER Increasing the use of E85 and other fuels to help meet President Bush's goal of slashing U.S. gasoline consumption will depend largely on availability and price - with a dose of conviction, some local auto dealers say. More Genoa Chevrolet customers are asking about E85 and the vehicles that can use it, such as Chevrolet Silverado pickups and Chevrolet Impala sedans with certain engines. More at: http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070125/BUSINESS01/701250339/-1/BUSINESS
April 5, 200718 yr From the 1/30/07 Miami Student: Ethanol brings alternative energy source to area Sarah Foster, Staff Writer Issue date: 1/30/07 Section: Community While high gas prices and America's dependence on foreign oil are major topics of discussion at the national level, drivers in Butler County will be able to experience alternative sources of energy locally with the availability of ethanol, or E-85. Ethanol is a grain alcohol that is produced when distilled from fermented corn grain. Corn is the key ingredient because it is the most plentiful and economically available. The ethanol-based fuel, called E-85, is becoming available at local gas stations around Butler County. According to the Greater Ohio Ethanol Web site, E-85 is a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. It burns cleaner than regular fuels and is a renewable domestic energy source. More at: www.miamistudent.net/media/storage/paper776/news/2007/01/30/Community/Ethanol.Brings.Alternative.Energy.Source.To.Area-2684883.shtml]http://media.www.miamistudent.net/media/storage/paper776/news/2007/01/30/Community/Ethanol.Brings.Alternative.Energy.Source.To.Area-2684883.shtml
April 5, 200718 yr From the 3/3/07 Kentucky Post: Ethanol starts in the slow lane Post staff report The availability of an ethanol-based fuel for cars is growing in the area, but sales are still slow and the price is still high. The fuel is called E85; it's 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. It just became available for the first time in Northern Kentucky at a Kroger store in the Latonia neighborhood of Covington. More at: http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070303/NEWS02/703030334
April 5, 200718 yr From the 3/27/07 DDN: Kroger offers gasoline and ethanol blend By Kristin McAllister Staff Writer Tuesday, March 27, 2007 SPRINGFIELD — The Springfield Kroger at 2728 E. Main St. is now offering E-85 fuel. A total of eight Kroger gas stations in Dayton and Cincinnati now offer the blend of gasoline and ethanol fuel alternative. Because of an increase in the amount of vehicles capable of using E-85, Kroger is currently offering E85 at its Brandt Pike store in Huber Heights. In the spring, the ethanol-based fuel will be available at the West Market Street store in Troy. Contact this reporter at (937) 225-9338 or [email protected]. http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/business/2007/03/27/ddn032707krogergasweb.html
April 5, 200718 yr ODOD press release, 4/4/07: FISHER ANNOUNCES ALTERNATIVE FUEL GRANTS $595,000 Awarded to Alternative Fuel Retailers and Biodiesel Blending Facilities FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE April 4, 2007 Columbus, OH -- Lieutenant Governor Lee Fisher announced today the initial grant awards from the Alternative Fuel Transportation Grant Program in the amount of $595,000 to 12 alternative fuel retailers and two biodiesel blending facilities. The Alternative Fuel Transportation Grant Program was established by the House Bill 245, sponsored by Representative Reinhard (R-82), for the purpose of improving air quality through grants to businesses, nonprofit organizations, schools systems, or local governments for the purchase and installation of alternative fuel refueling, blending or distribution facilities, and terminals. "These grants are designed to assist in the commercialization of alternative fuels, helping farmers, retailers and consumers by addressing both the supply and demand barriers often associated with emerging industries," said Lt. Governor Fisher who also serves as the Director of the Ohio Department of Development (ODOD). "The strategic placement of these new ethanol refueling and biodiesel blending locations will increase the availability of alternative fuels throughout Ohio and serve as a catalyst for future retail and wholesale growth." The 12 alternative fuel retailers receiving awards include nine Speedway stations located in Columbus, Fairborn, Kettering, Wadsworth, Garfield Heights, Springfield, Mt. Healthy and Macedonia with each receiving $20,000 in grant assistance. Additional grants were awarded to the Francis Group's Sunoco Station, located in Parma, which was awarded $15,000; Glockner Oil, located in Portsmouth, which received a $20,000 grant; and Village Farm, located in Sylvania receiving $20,000. Circleville Oil, located in Circleville and American Ag Fuels, located in Dayton each received $180,000 in grant assistance for enhancements to their biodiesel blending facilities. Alternative fuel proposals were reviewed on a competitive basis by the Ohio Department of Development's Office of Energy Efficiency. ODOD will issue a new Notice of Funds mid April 2007 that will focus on available incentives designed to encourage more retail alternative fuel locations in Ohio. Guidelines and application forms will be posted online at http://www.odod.state.oh.us/cdd/oee/transportation.htm. The Office of Energy Efficiency (OEE) works with individuals, communities, non-profit organizations, businesses large and small, industry, and other government agencies to achieve its vision of a robust economy supported by multiple energy sources, energy efficiency, and advanced technology with added value for the quality of life for all Ohioans. http://www.odod.state.oh.us/newsroom/releases/1731.asp
April 6, 200718 yr The fuel costs 30 cents less per gallon than conventional gas at Kroger, the company said but doesn't take you as far.
August 28, 200717 yr Kroger partnership debuts E85 locally August 28, 2007 | CINCINNATI BUSINESS COURIER CINCINNATI - Kroger Co. has teamed with an ethanol producer to offer a blend of the fuel and gasoline at 20 locations in Ohio and Northern Kentucky. The grocery chain said it has signed a deal with Brookings, S.D.-based VeraSun Energy Corp. to offer VeraSun's branded VE85 at fueling stations attached to its grocery stores. VE85 is a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline that can be used in vehicles modified to burn alternate fuels. Click headline for more:
August 28, 200717 yr The fuel costs 30 cents less per gallon than conventional gas at Kroger, the company said but doesn't take you as far. Exactly! It needs to cost 30 percent less to break even...not 30 cents less.
August 28, 200717 yr you would also need 30% more tanker trucks to carry the same amount of energy because the fuel is less energy rich.
August 29, 200717 yr We're headed down a dangerous path with ethanol. The competition between food vs. fuel has been driving up food prices: Exploding U.S. Grain Demand for Automotive Fuel Threatens World Food Security and Political Stability The amount of corn it takes to fill a 25 gallon tank of an SUV with ethanol would feed a person for one year The only way ethanol will work as a major transportation fuel for the US is if we take all the necessary steps to reduce driving needs by at least 60%, lightweight what motor vehicles are left through carbon fiber construction (and ultra-light steel), and run them with hybrid engines. We also have to use other sources for ethanol besides grain-- particularly things that can be grown on marginal lands or utilize Biomass pyrolysis to make biofuels from things like yard and crop wastes. Biomass pyrolysis should be one of the widely used methods to create biofuels because after all energy inputs are taken into account, the fuels would be carbon negative. If employed on a large scale, biomass pyrolysis would actually remove CO2 from the atmosphere-- provided the carbon that is created from the process is returned to the soil and not burned. The carbon would actually improve soil productivity and reduce the need for petrochemical-based fertilizers (moreso in tropical regions than temperate ones, but still useful in most climates). Grain prices are already up world-wide. As if we don't have enough foreign policy problems already, the last thing we need is to pit American SUV owners against hungry people in the rest of the world.
August 29, 200717 yr I don't think that anyone has really envisioned ethanol as addressing the energy needs of American's driving habits. This is just something that can be done as an alternative.
August 29, 200717 yr I don't think that anyone has really envisioned ethanol as addressing the energy needs of American's driving habits. This is just something that can be done as an alternative. I think the points of others on this board is that pursuing ethanol is actually counterproductive. 1) It confuses people into thinking we've got everything solved 2) Studies show that it only yeilds a small net gain of energy, at best 3) It drives up costs of food 4) It's being marketed as a "green" technology even though it's far from it The only positive about the subsidization of ethanol will be realized only if MASSIVE advances in cellulosic ethanol happen. If we can make cellulosic ethanol minutely competitive, we'll at least have a distribution infrastructure set up to allow for easier adoption. Right now, that doesn't look promising. Damn thermodynamics. :x
August 29, 200717 yr One more thing to add. I think I've read that if we were to use the ENTIRE annual corn harvest of the US to make ethanol, we'd displace something like 14% of our gasoline consumption. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out that it's not even a good alternative, yet it's practically being marketed as our "freedom fuel".
August 29, 200717 yr I don't think that anyone has really envisioned ethanol as addressing the energy needs of American's driving habits. This is just something that can be done as an alternative. I think the points of others on this board is that pursuing ethanol is actually counterproductive. 1) It confuses people into thinking we've got everything solved 2) Studies show that it only yeilds a small net gain of energy, at best 3) It drives up costs of food 4) It's being marketed as a "green" technology even though it's far from it The only positive about the subsidization of ethanol will be realized only if MASSIVE advances in cellulosic ethanol happen. If we can make cellulosic ethanol minutely competitive, we'll at least have a distribution infrastructure set up to allow for easier adoption. Right now, that doesn't look promising. Damn thermodynamics. :x I agree completely...I'm just saying that I don't think/hope that people really believe this is a viable alternative energy. But Brewmaster is right...it has been practically pitched as the "freedom fuel" for America. Why develop hydrogen anyways? :roll:
August 29, 200717 yr does anyone think it is strange that the country keeps persuing these pie in the sky techno fixes when the solutions of denser communities, more mass transit, and nuclear/solar/wind already exist?
August 29, 200717 yr does anyone think it is strange that the country keeps persuing these pie in the sky techno fixes when the solutions of denser communities, more mass transit, and nuclear/solar/wind already exist? Strange...no Unfortunate...yes
September 10, 200717 yr Car rental company expands area use of ethanol By Thomas Gnau Staff Writer Tuesday, August 28, 2007 Enterprise Rent-A-car said Tuesday it will designate vehicle rental locations in Troy, Cincinnati and Grove City as "VE85/FlexFuel branches," making available E85-fueled vehicles available for rental. Enterprise, which opened a FlexFuel branch in Washington D.C. in June, said in a statement that it has the "largest fleet of FlexFuel vehicles," 41,000 cars and trucks that can use E85, a blend of fuel that is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. More at: http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/n/content/oh/story/news/business/2007/08/28/ddn082807enterpriseweb.html
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