Problem is, any equipment that's designed to fit in the tunnels would likely not meet Federal Railroad Administration buffer-strength (crash-impact) standards. Any commuter rail vehicle that operates in a mixed-traffic environment with freight needs to be of a heavy-duty construction. It is possible to build just about anything these days, so I'm not saying it's impossible.

 

If the buffer-strength standards cannot be met, then the LRT (diesel/electric or straight electric) would have to have a dedicated passenger only rail track (with sufficient lateral separation from the nearest active freight track -- I think it's 25 feet from the track centerlines). Or, there would have to be a time-of-day separation from freight traffic on the mixed-traffic portion. The latter is where the problem comes in, as the two I-75 rail lines (CSX and NS) are heavily used, and a time-of-day separation of traffic is pretty unlikely.

There are actually 2-3 lines (it's a complicated situation) that parallel I-75 north of Ivorydale so there are a lot of options.  From the comfort of my arm chair it seems to all of them would work nearly as well, in a perfect world a branch to Tri-County Mall and to Rt. 42 would both happen.  Also, I am sure that smaller and shorter commuter rail cars exist somewhere, esp in Europe where commuter lines more often act as metro lines in city centers.  I do not know the exact radius of the Plum St. turn, but I have walked through it numerous times, it is nowhere near as tight as one would imagine from walking above it or from photos.  It in no way resembles the tight turns on Boston's Green Line, which is what I think a lot of people confuse it for and would not require articulated light rail equipment.  It was designed to the same specs as Boston's Red Line, which runs full-size high platform heavy rail metro equipment.   

 

A third mainline track was added to a few miles of the CSX route above the yard lead about five years ago which would help, although passing sidings might be needed and a flyover from the CSX yard lead to Central Parkway south of Ludlow Ave.  This would be a $50 million structure, the 8 block downtown subway extension would be about $150-200 million. 

As I understand it, the local equity in the subway might range between $100 million and $200 million. That's a big difference. If it's $100 million, the local government might be able to leverage anywhere from a $100 million to $400 million federal grant. If the local equity is $200 million, that might be used to leverage anywhere from a $200 million to $800 million federal grant. If the city and transit agency can set up a tax-increment financing district along the route to leverage property taxes from the added land value of future development, then that could take care of the additional operating subsidy for the LRT.

 

Whatever that amount is will determine how much LRT right of way can be built north and south of the subway portion.

 

Europe does have smaller commuter rail cars, but they don't meet U.S. buffer strength standards, given the heavier freight equipment/loads of U.S. railroads.

It would be a shame if this line is killed because too much had to be sunk into designing custom rolling stock.  I know the Boston T suffered a pretty large embarrassment a few years back when its new green line trains kept breaking down and they eventually took them completely out of service.  The green line is a blessing and a curse.  Meanwhile there are many examples around the country of two transit systems combining orders.  This saves money not only on the rolling stock but on spare parts and all sorts of other equipment.  Washington, Baltimore, Miami, and I think Atlanta all run that same type of subway car.  Dallas and Salt Lake City I believe run the same light rail cars.   

 

When I-75 is torn up in a few years even a bare-bones commuter line will beat it time-wise, temporarily the cost of the downtown subway could even be avoided with a terminus at Central Parkway or surface running on the east side of Eggleston Ave., looping around at Pete Rose Way to terminate in the existing Riverfront Transit Center under 2nd St.  The line could even temporarily terminate in the large parking lot at 9th & Walnut, about 4 blocks from Fountain Square.     

 

The silver lining to downtown's many surface lots is that they can provide staging areas during subway construction and also allow cut-and-cover tunnels to curve at a wider radius, gaining some of the advantage of bored tunnels.  Looking at Walnut St. currently there are three large lots along its route with the longest stretch of continuous building being four, and even that is punctuated by Government Square, which could be torn up. 

 

I'm a little late to this discussion, but to what extent is the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railroad Tunnel available for future use?  I'm looking toward Mecklenborg for an answer.

"A group headed by former WKRC-TV newsman Nick Clooney floated a proposal in 1974 to turn the tubes into a giant subterranean shopping district."

 

Plummet Mall? (Anybody remember that, or am I just too old?)

"A group headed by former WKRC-TV newsman Nick Clooney floated a proposal in 1974 to turn the tubes into a giant subterranean shopping district."

 

This is an absolutely disgusting idea!  Not to mention that the tunnels would be way too narrow to hold any significant retail destinations, and downtown already is having a hard enough time with their retail sector.  No more retail.

 

Retail and business will follow if you effectively transport people to the places they want to go.  Should downtown become more accessible via rail (eliminating parking costs) then you will have a better business, retail, entertainment, and living destination.  I dont feel that downtown is undesirable due to its locale and/or features, but rather its costs to park and the perception of crime.

 

Transit can solve many issues that face urban areas...when done correctly.

^ perhaps you missed the part where it said "in 1974".  it was an interesting idea none the less.  a night club would have been pretty cool...im thinking the movie Blade...ha

The CL&N tunnel is short and was originally built for two narrow gauge lines, with standard gauge only one track can be run through.  The larger issue is the alignment of that route, which doesn't pass through any population or employment centers.  In a cheaper alternate plan to the so-called I-71 light rail line this route was to be used instead of street running through Corryville and the Mt. Auburn Tunnel.  But by avoiding that area the line avoids the region's #2 employment area, UC commuters, and an area with poor interstate access.  In some dream system that CL&N route could be used as a stationless bypass of the UC area, cutting miles and minutes off the downtown approach for commuters from distant suburbs. 

^ perhaps you missed the part where it said "in 1974".  it was an interesting idea none the less.  a night club would have been pretty cool...im thinking the movie Blade...ha

 

No I didnt miss that 1974 part, but many people (leaders) seem to think that retail and shopping solves issues that are usually hard to address.  I was just expressing my discontent with that feeling.

I just heard on the news that light rail would cost about $70 per person. Basicly 2 fill ups as the guy put it as gas goes to $3 a gallon and higher. Every one they interviewed said they would support a light rail tax. I would expect another vote on this by 2008.

I heard

He said a tram is "a bad idea" because it requires riders to switch modes of transportation to get from the river to Uptown.

 

Streetcar systems have a big technical advantage over light rail because its cars are smaller...

 

"It is an economic development tool," he said. "It's been a huge development catalyst."

 

The streetcars I have seen are small enough to roll onto a platform.  Couldn't the car roll onto an incline platform at the top of Elm Street, then be lifted up to the end of Ohio Avenue?  Then it would be a few short, level blocks from the huge new developments at UC.  No getting off the car required. 

 

Voila we have UC connected to Findlay Mkt, Music Hall and the Stadia, in one affordable plan.

 

I agree, this should be sold as an economic development tool.  All properties within a block or two of the proposed path would see private development, especially the difficult areas in OTR of Findlay Market and Washington Park.

"I think we need to strengthen the core of the city and what better way to invest in OTR by having a CBD-Clifton connection with a stop in OTR."

 

Think about a streetcar connecting Third and Main with Findlay Market -- no hills, no bridges, one jurisdiction, about $100 million. It would strengthen Findlay Market as downtown's permanent grocery store and enable people to live without cars, which is what it's going to take to have a real downtown. Later phases could go up Vine to Clifton and from Third and Sycamore to Newport and Covington. Or -- I don't presume that it's possible -- Sycamore Hill to Auburn Avenue to Clifton @ Ludlow.

John;

I hope you post more on this forum, as you obviously know your stuff.  I really like the streetcar idea since I heard you on the  radio describing the affordability, the smoothness of the ride and the design of the stops.  l for one would be riding this line alot, as it hits the key spots for me in the basin: riverfront, music hall, findlay market as well as my work and home. 

>Cross-County Highway (which unfortunately was built relatively recently and yet with no thought of rail in mind).

 

I'm glad somebody brought this up.  Imagine if the gap between I-75 and Colerain Ave. had instead been used for a commuter line branching off one of the rail lines paralleling I-75 with stations at Winton, Daley, Hamilton, and Colerain.  All of the ROW used by the highway but not by the rail line could have been used for new parking garages and transit-oriented development.  Or alternatively the rail line could have been built with a simple 2-lane road paralleling it. 

Does any one know why the KY part of the light rail haven't been voted on yet? I know the Hamilton County vote wouldn't pay for the Ky side. So what gives?

Just hazarding a guess here, but I don't think Kentucky's DOT is very committed to rail of any kind. When they attended a meeting for the Ohio Hub in 2005, their two reps pretty much sat on their hands and stayed mute for the entire meeting.

"Does any one know why the KY part of the light rail haven't been voted on yet?"

 

Light rail has never been on the ballot anywhere in Kentucky. The Kentucky constitution does not allow for a local option sales tax for transit.

Hey Schneider, you seem well informed.  Can you answer me this?  Blue Ash is going to give pay Cincinnati $37.5 million over the next 30 years for the airport (if the deal is approved).  So how much money could that money leverage in bonds, to pay for the streetcar line you suggested below?

 

In Cincinnati, that means a Downtown Streetcar and a three-mile connection up to UC as logical places to start. I don't think people will demand rail until the alternatives get worse -- $4.00 or $5.00 gas, maybe. So maybe the comparative advantage for Ohio's downtowns and university areas is to position themselves as transit-rich environments where you can live without a car. Remove the parking burden that stifles development in these areas. And have a unique product to offer when the crunch comes... Think about a streetcar connecting Third and Main with Findlay Market -- no hills, no bridges, one jurisdiction, about $100 million. It would strengthen Findlay Market as downtown's permanent grocery store and enable people to live without cars, which is what it's going to take to have a real downtown. Later phases could go up Vine to Clifton and from Third and Sycamore to Newport and Covington. Or -- I don't presume that it's possible -- Sycamore Hill to Auburn Avenue to Clifton @ Ludlow.

 

Help me and others out.  Minds who don't read The Enquirer want to know.

 

 

"Does any one know why the KY part of the light rail haven't been voted on yet?"

 

Light rail has never been on the ballot anywhere in Kentucky. The Kentucky constitution does not allow for a local option sales tax for transit.

How was the line from the airport to downtown suppose to be funded? Gas tax? Vehicle title tax?

Hey Schneider, you seem well informed.  Can you answer me this?  Blue Ash is going to give pay Cincinnati $37.5 million over the next 30 years for the airport (if the deal is approved).  So how much money could that money leverage in bonds, to pay for the streetcar line you suggested below?

 

Dunno. Interesting idea.

 

How was the line from the airport to downtown suppose to be funded? Gas tax? Vehicle title tax?

 

As far as I know, no one has ever written a financial plan for rail transit in Northern Kentucky. I'm not optimistic that rail will ever be built from downtown to the Greater Cincinnati Northern Kentucky International Airport.

 

By the way, if you want to get to the airport from downtown Cincinnati fast and cheap, try the TANK Airport Express. With a Metro pass, it costs 45 cents and will get you there faster than driving and parking. Catch it on Main, Sixth or Race. The return trip through the Covington Transit Center is much slower, however. Take a cab.

Are local taxes the predominant method of funding light rail around the country?  If so, does that mean that KY is stuck in the transit dark ages until they amend their constitution?  It's too bad our airport is stranded down there.

Kentucky is stuck in the dark ages in more ways than one^

As you may know, a plan for a streetcar connecting The Banks with Findlay Market is circulating among downtown stakeholders. Developed by Michael Moose, Dan Deering and me, a downtown Cincinnati streetcar could be implemented fairly quickly without a general tax increase. Such an improvement could make downtown development easier by lessening dependence on cars, thereby reducing developers' costs for parking while redirecting some of the money we spend on our cars to buy more and better housing. The plan recognizes that downtown Cincinnati is unlikely to have a supermarket anytime soon but that our continuously improving Findlay Market has the potential to fill that void. The streetcar could easily be extended someday to Uptown and to Newport and Covington. In a era of rising highway congestion and fuel prices, being able to position downtown living as an alternative to the highway economy seems to make some sense.

 

Portland, Oregon is the only city in the United States with a modern streetcar, although about forty other U.S. cities, including Columbus, are now planning streetcar lines. Using European equipment, the Portland Streetcar opened in 2001, and its second expansion to Portland's new riverfront project will open this fall. Plans are in the works to extend it another six miles into one of Portland's most affluent suburbs.

 

The Alliance for Regional Transit has been escorting Cincinnatians to Portland over the last five years to see how the streetcar works and how it is reshaping urban living there. Our next trip will be in October, and I'd like you to go. About 245 Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky residents have made the trip already. Ask around -- you undoubtedly know someone who has gone there with us, probably several people.

 

Our tour begins at Noon on Friday, October 13th and ends after a late dinner with a speaker in one of Portland best restaurants. The Alliance will charge $92 for your share of the tour including lunch, dinner and train tickets. I've booked a block of rooms in Portland's best hotel at a rate of $139 per night.

 

If your time is limited, you could leave Cincinnati on Friday morning and be back home early on Saturday afternoon. The Delta nonstops are pretty expensive, but I've seen $259 fares this weekend on Northwest via Minneapolis, pretty cheap for this market.

 

Most people will probably come out Thursday night before the tour, and some will stay through Saturday to explore Oregon's Cascade Mountains or its seashore, or just stay put to enjoy Portland's downtown, arguably the best of any Cincinnati-sized city in North America. The weather is usually pretty good there in mid-October, although there could be snow in The Cascades by then.

 

Anyway, if you'd like to go, write back to me at [email protected] and I'll send you more information.

 

Thanks,

 

John Schneider

I would urge as many of you from Cincy to take John up on his offer.  We sent a delegation to Portland from Columbus and the experience just blew them away.  Not only were they impressed with the streetcar, but even more with how well it is integrated with the light-rail and bus system that are run by the local transit authority. (The streetcar is privately run.)

 

I would also consider bringing the management of the Portland streetcar back to Cincy to speak in front of the key leaders and the general public.  They have a great story to tell about not only how they got the job done, but what it has meant to the city in terms of economic development, new jobs, reduced traffic (31-million fewer vehicle miles traveled annually since it opened), and how they financed the initial system.

I have been to portland and the public transprotation is great, but you also should include the fact that you are not allowed to park in the city, so most people park outside the city and ride public transportation to get to the needed destination.

I have been to portland and the public transprotation is great, but you also should include the fact that you are not allowed to park in the city, so most people park outside the city and ride public transportation to get to the needed destination.

 

This is untrue. You can easily park in downtown Portland. Garages are very user-friendly for visitors, and there are gobs of parking meters where you can pay for a ticket at a curbside machine, park there

Sorry, hit the wrong key. You can pay for a specified amount of parking at a curbside machine, put the stub on your windshield, and then you can move your car to another meter using the unexpired time you have left. I've rented cars in downtown Portland and left them on the street overnight -- never a problem.

 

It's true that there are no meters right in nine-block heart of the city and there are few on the bus mall , but those are excpetions, not the rule. The city-owned parking garages are better maintained than in most cities I've visited.

 

What also interesting is that parking meters are "zoned" so that all revenues from the meters (including fines) within two to three blocks of the streetcar lines goes directly into the operating revenues of the streetcar system.  This accounts for almost a third of their funding.

 

It's true that there are no meters right in nine-block heart of the city and there are few on the bus mall , but those are excpetions, not the rule. The city-owned parking garages are better maintained than in most cities I've visited.

 

 

This is what i was referring to. this nine block area is if i recall correctly, The fareless square so people park outside of that and then can ride the street cars for free. I think this Free area is also what help spark allot of development, because you could truly live with out the cost of a car.

Actually, transit throughout all of downtown Portland on both sides of the Willamette River is now fareless. Itwould be like you could go from downtown to Clifton for free. I think they are having second thoughts about it, though.

John what are the chances of Cincinnati getting a line from downtown to midtown?  Is that currently the goal of the pro light rail community?  Does the light rail community have support from the bus community or are they fearful that light rail will eat into revenue?

John what are the chances of Cincinnati getting a line from downtown to midtown?  Is that currently the goal of the pro light rail community?  Does the light rail community have support from the bus community or are they fearful that light rail will eat into revenue?

 

I'm involved in planning a streetcar from The Banks to Findlay Market. There are Uptown interests that want a streetcar that goes from there to Downtown via Findlay Market. So I think there's a shared sense of the possible. As for light rail, the line that makes most sense would run on Main and Sycamore through Broadway Commons to MLK and Reading Road to Xavier to Rookwood to East Hyde Park at Erie Avenue. SORTA already owns some of that alignment, and the rest of it will come on the market within the next couple of years. If you add up all the November 2002 votes in the wards along that alignment, Issue 7 passed, and that was when gas prices were at their lowest in real terms since WWII.

 

Opponents continually try to stoke fears among bus riders that they would be short-changed if LRT were built. I'm a bus rider, and I don't feel threatened by it. But it's a good tactic that is always employed in cities trying to move to higher-level transit, most effectively in Los Angeles over the last ten years.

 

 

I hope this goes through. Columbus really needs the streetcar system too and it's going to be a while before it's up and running. Cincinnati better get its act together or it will be the only major Ohio city without rail and suffer the consequences. Hopefully, all the positive development going on there will ensure that streetcars become a reality in the coming years. I'm thinking it will. Our large downtowns could use some healthy competition.

John what are the chances of Cincinnati getting a line from downtown to midtown?  Is that currently the goal of the pro light rail community?  Does the light rail community have support from the bus community or are they fearful that light rail will eat into revenue?

 

There's a risk to transit systems that don't move to higher-level transit such as light rail, the risk that they will be totally abandoned by the middle class, much as urban school systems are totally. Rail is car-competitive for longer trips; buses aren't. So the risk is that transit systems that don't upgrade become mere social programs supplying bare bones transit for people without cars. In fact, I think some of rail's opponents would like that -- marginalize transit to the extent that few people who vote use it anymore, then de-fund it.

 

If you look at the 2000 Census, there were only two all-bus cities -- Orlando and Las Vegas, both with fairly unusual economies -- that showed gains in Journey-to-Work market share. All the other cities that gained ridership share were rail cities plus Seattle, which has long been beefing up its bus system in preparation for its first light rail line.

City lags others in mass transit vision

Op-ed by Cathleen Arnold in Cincinnati Enquirer

 

When Cincinnati was called "Porkopolis" in its heyday, the late 19th century, a much smaller Chicago decided to grasp the future by jumping on one great new bandwagon: rail. With its new rail system, Chicago surged ahead of the Queen City to become "hog butcher to the world," while Cincinnati stuck with its canals.

 

Now one of the great U.S. cities, Chicago also takes the lead in an issue vitally important today: environmentally sound growth. The city encourages green design in its new buildings, while promoting bicycling with special bike lanes. SUV owners pay higher vehicle registration fees. Its efficient rapid-transit trains carry thousands of commuters daily.

 

Click on link for article.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060822/EDIT02/608220304/1090

The Alliance for Regional Transit has been escorting Cincinnatians to Portland over the last five years to see how the streetcar works and how it is reshaping urban living there. Our next trip will be in October, and I'd like you to go. About 245 Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky residents have made the trip already. Ask around -- you undoubtedly know someone who has gone there with us, probably several people.

John;

I don't think I need to go (as I am totally convinced already). However, can I donate money to help fund this trip for a councilmember or some other public official?

I agree with the sentiment of the editorial, but the whole "Cincinnati could have been Chicago if it had only built more or better railroads" is an old myth that needs to be retired. Attributing rail development as the reason for the historical growth of Cincinnati vis a vis Chicago is short-sighted at best and at worst is sympomatic of good old Cincinnati brand "could have been a contenda-ness," to coin a phrase.

 

Besides, depending on when one considers the "late 19th century" to have begun, let's generously say 1870, Chicago was already larger than Cincinnati, so the thesis of her first paragraph is manifestly false. This is the sort of historic mythology that obscures more than it enlightens.

The Alliance for Regional Transit has been escorting Cincinnatians to Portland over the last five years to see how the streetcar works and how it is reshaping urban living there. Our next trip will be in October, and I'd like you to go. About 245 Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky residents have made the trip already. Ask around -- you undoubtedly know someone who has gone there with us, probably several people.

John;

I don't think I need to go (as I am totally convinced already). However, can I donate money to help fund this trip for a councilmember or some other public official?

 

Once councilmember is going so far, and I'll keep your offer in mind. It's a kind offer. In addition, someone who is active in the OTR community whom I invited to go on this trip (and just about every other trip for the last couple of years) wrote back to ask if we had scholarships for people who couldn't affort to go. We don't, though we once did when Delta was healthy. If you want to assist this person, please write back to me = [email protected], and I'll try to get you two together. I think Jim Tarbell told me that you used to live in Portland; is that correct?

^This article confuses freight railroads and commuter or rapid transit/subway/light rail systems and in citing Chicago ignores that it hasn't expanded its system significantly in decades, I believe since adding the lines that travel in the expressway medians.  Similarly NYC and Boston haven't added more than a half-dozen stations apiece to their subway systems in last 50 years. 

 

And it seems to me, and I've been mentioning this on these forums for years, that Cincinnati people should be visiting Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and especially now St. Louis' systems.  The average Cincinnatian has zero idea that any of these systems even have transit lines.  What has been proposed in recent decades in Cincinnati is more or less what St. Louis has built in that same time period.   

 

 

 

With its new rail system, Chicago surged ahead of the Queen City to become "hog butcher to the world," while Cincinnati stuck with its canals.

 

This statement is also specious.  The meat-packing center of the U.S. consistently shifted westward as the population did.  From Cincinnati to Chicago, and from Chicago thence to Kansas City.  Anyone actually interested in reading the history of this sort of thing would do no better than to read William Cronon's Nature's Metropolis, conveniently referenced below:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393308731/sr=1-1/qid=1156265123/ref=sr_1_1/103-0338394-8479870?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

I've mentioned this before on other threads when this myth has come up, but the reason Chicago is the largest and most prominent Midwestern City is because it lies at what is perhaps the most geographically significant point in the entire United States.  It is the closest and easiest transportation path between the two great river systems on the eastern half of the continent, the Mississippi and the St. Lawrence.  Picture to follow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NorthAmericaDivides.gif

 

So the reasons why the railroads were built to and from Chicago was on account of the natural access to water transportation facilities, not dumb luck or political foresight.  If someone could just choose a spot, why not St. Louis or Kansas City, a much more geographically centralized spot, with a pre-existing community (at least in the case of St. Louis)?

 

Also, let's not forget that Cincinnati is the only city in the country to build and own it's own railroad (from Cinti to Chattanooga), the rents of which make the city something like $93 million per year.  That's real political foresight.  The way to create value is to make good investments, not mindlessly cut taxes.

 

Great.  Now that's settled, let's seriously toss out ways we can help move this Cincinnati streetcar proposal along.

It would be nice to even have Amtrak boarding at reasonable hours.  I have to be at Union Terminal at 2:30 in the morning to catch a train.  That is down right ridiculous.

It would be nice to even have Amtrak boarding at reasonable hours.  I have to be at Union Terminal at 2:30 in the morning to catch a train.  That is down right ridiculous.

tsch

especially if you gotta take the bus to the train station.

At least if Amtrak's "Cardinal" was a daily train, the service would automatically improve over the every-other-day type of service Cincy gets now. 

 

If both the Ohio Hub and Midwest Regional Rail Plans can become a reality, Cincinnati could be seeing as many as 16 trains a day and actually have trains that come & go in the daylight.  What a concept!  We need to be hammering on our reps in Washington to get behind legislation that supports these plans with significant federal dollars.

 

 

>I'm involved in planning a streetcar from The Banks to Findlay Market.

 

Thanks for the email, John.  Still, I remember in the late 90's people traveling to Portland while Cincinnati was planning the I-71 light rail project and the Midwestern systems not even being mentioned.  Really, since the invention of the internet and the appearance of transit discussion websites, Portland has always been the golden boy. 

 

 

 

 

 

I just reread this entire thread and have some new comments.  I had not been paying much attention to the Milford Commuter plan until I reread their figure -- $440 million, for an "18 mile" line.  I have checked and rechecked, but according to Google Maps the length would only be about 13-15 miles.  Compare it to the Nashville Music City Star commuter rail opening next week which is 30 miles and cost only $40 million.  So we are talking 10X for half the length and an estimated 3X more riders.   

 

6,000 daily riders means roughly 3,000 in the morning and 3,000 in the afternoon going the opposite way.  A coupled 2-vehicle consist of Portland's MAX light rail vehicles caries 144 seated passengers and 500~ seated and standing.  That means 4 of these 2-car consists operating at 15 minute headways between 6am and 9am could easily move 3,000 people with and average of half sitting and half standing.  By adding a third car to each train, an average of only 1 out of 6 riders would have to stand.  Clearly with 2 trains headed in one direction and 2 in the other on 15 miles of track they can get away with single tracking some sections without significantly crippling operations and of course they can in this case always give priority to the inbound morning and outbound afternoon trains.  And with such short trains, they only have to build short passing sidings.   

 

The current 82X bus route from Eastgate Mall via 471 is scheduled at 35 minutes.  Milford is 2-3 miles further north than Eastgate, but if the 15 mile line only averages 30mph it will hardly beat that and of course dumps off riders further from their place of work under 2nd St. instead of Government Square.  For that reason this line needs to haul ass, eliminating the pointless stops outlined on the most recently published schematic.  There should only be stations for sure at Milford, Newtown, and Beechmont Ave.  All the eastside bus routes can transfer at Beechmont.  The good news is that the final 3 miles between the boathouse and Beechmont are all grade seperated, so there as well as other points the vehicles should be able to sustain 50mph.

 

As to the I-75 versus I-71 corridor question, they made a marketing mistake by calling the I-71 line the I-71 line, when it has little to do with I-71.  It would primarily run on the abandoned ROW that travels through Norwood, Silverton, Blue Ash, and north of I-275 all the way to Lebanon.  Unlike any other abandoned ROW around town, this one travels directly through healthy neighborhoods for its entire length without any significant dry spells.  It would travel through the major secondary employment centers of U of Cincinnati, Xavier/Norwood, and Blue Ash.  These are the major secondary centers of employment in the metro and so no other transit lines have the same potential for reverse commuting and two-way traffic.  If you go on Google maps, the line is drawn on there even though it's inactive.  Switch between it and the satellite image and you'll see why this line is ideal. 

 

"I-75" light rail has not been desribed specifically but would parallel any one of the three active lines that travel parallel to I-75 north of the lateral.  None of these lines travel through residential areas steadily.  It would be almost strictly a commuter line with less midday and reverse traffic than the I-71 line.   

 

The thinking is that the I-75 line would follow the SORTA-owned alignment to Xavier, then branch north and west to Elmwood Place and from there, pretty much run parallel to I-75. It's a tight squeeze in some places.

It would primarily run on the abandoned ROW that travels through Norwood, Silverton, Blue Ash, and north of I-275 all the way to Lebanon.  Unlike any other abandoned ROW around town, this one travels directly through healthy neighborhoods for its entire length without any significant dry spells.  It would travel through the major secondary employment centers of U of Cincinnati, Xavier/Norwood, and Blue Ash.  These are the major secondary centers of employment in the metro and so no other transit lines have the same potential for reverse commuting and two-way traffic.  If you go on Google maps, the line is drawn on there even though it's inactive.  Switch between it and the satellite image and you'll see why this line is ideal. 

 

"I-75" light rail has not been desribed specifically but would parallel any one of the three active lines that travel parallel to I-75 north of the lateral.  None of these lines travel through residential areas steadily.  It would be almost strictly a commuter line with less midday and reverse traffic than the I-71 line.   

 

I agree, the northeast line would make more sense. 

 

 

 

I have not seen any detailed drawings of what is envisioned for I-75.  Since it makes too much sense for light rail provisions to be made into the soon to be reconstructed highway, it won't happen.  There are numerous examples of rail lines running in expressway medians around the country and in the late 90's Dallas bored a 3.5 mile tunnel with one subway station underneath its North Central Expressway for $160 million. 

 

In short if there are not going to be any provisions for light rail in the reconstruction of I-75, I don't see a line hugging I-75 as having much advantage, price-wise, over one paralleling or tunneling under 747 or Reading Rd.  A Reading Rd. line would probably be preferable to a 747 line because of the General Electric plant and numerous large undeveloped parcels north to I-75 itching for residential or industrial development.  There are also thousands of jobs along Mosteller Rd. and north in the Schumacher-Dugan industrial park which could attract reverse-commuters along the way to large park-and-rides on Cincinnati-Dayton Rd. or anywhere in that area.   

   

Actually, the city of Cincinnati and state of Ohio are taking great pains to reserve ROW for LRT in the I-75 rebuild. And you're right about the ultimate destination -- Union Center Boulevard has always been where planners thought it should terminate, though Larry Schumacher was surprised when I told him this.