Nice work LIG! Although, do you really think the Western side of the Blue Line, and the Purple Line (whole thing) are really necessary? The Western part of the Blue Line covers some very, very sparsely populated areas, and I can't see it getting hardly any ridership.  The Purple Line seems to be pretty well covered by the Green Line, with few largely insignificant stops added in.  I do really like the idea of terminating the Red Line in Hamilton, I think that's a great idea, and would generate a lot of ridership.

@edale: Look at the Orange line in Northern Virginia, specifically Arlington County.  Those areas were somewhat sparsely populated before Metro (certainly ready for renewal at the least) and through public transit and intelligent zoning regs, it's now generating LOADS of money for investors and the county.  Build it and they will come...hopefully from other parts of the country and not other parts of the tri-state. 

Considering much of Southwest Hamilton County isn't even integrated into the water system (correct me if I'm wrong), I don't see a boom happening in Saylor Park anytime soon.  DC is a high growth region, and the sprawl into VA is absolutely atrocious.  The Western Hills of Cincinnati are very hilly and remote, and most of the sprawl of Cincinnati is either north (Mason, West Chester), South (Florence, Crestview Hills), East (Anderson, Loveland, Milford), and somewhat less to the northwest (Colerain, Green Twp).  Cleeves is about as remote as it gets, and I seriously doubt major sprawl will reach there, even with the addition of a transit line.  I think a train to Dayton would have far greater ROI and ridership than a river following Western line.

What CincyInDC said. Even most of New York's subway lines were originally built through rural areas, and the development came later. I'm not suggesting that US 50 through Cleves should become like Queens Boulevard, but I think there's an opportunity for sustainable, transit-oriented development along the Blue Line route.

 

Also, note that the 2002 Metro Moves plan proposed a commuter rail line to Lawrenceburg along the same route, so the idea of rail transit in that corridor has been considered before. Most of the Purple Line also follows routes that were part of the Metro Moves plan.

 

 

^---"Even most of New York's subway lines were originally built through rural areas, and the development came later."

 

  True, but New York City as a whole was growing at that time. Cincinnati had the same experience at about the same time. Neither New York City nor Cincinnati is growing any more.

Due to increasing household sizes you can make the argument that both Cincinnati and New York City are growing even if raw population figures remain constant.

And even if Cincy isn't currently growing today, that's no guarantee the region won't experience growth in the future. I'd argue that a comprehensive mass transit system would make Cincinnati a more attractive city and therefore create growth.

Considering much of Southwest Hamilton County isn't even integrated into the water system (correct me if I'm wrong), I don't see a boom happening in Saylor Park anytime soon.  DC is a high growth region, and the sprawl into VA is absolutely atrocious.  The Western Hills of Cincinnati are very hilly and remote, and most of the sprawl of Cincinnati is either north (Mason, West Chester), South (Florence, Crestview Hills), East (Anderson, Loveland, Milford), and somewhat less to the northwest (Colerain, Green Twp).  Cleeves is about as remote as it gets, and I seriously doubt major sprawl will reach there, even with the addition of a transit line.  I think a train to Dayton would have far greater ROI and ridership than a river following Western line.

 

Anderson is no more or less hilly than the west side of Cincy...growth is happening now, in Green Twp...generally follows the sanitary sewer installation

 

  Green Township, Anderson Township, West Chester, Warren County, and Boone County are the high "growth" areas, but they are offset by losses elsewhere. Hamilton County as a whole has been losing population since 1970; Ohio as a whole is projected to peak in population in 2018.

 

    Sure, if the average number of people per house declines with a steady population, the number of houses will increase. However, spreading the same number of people out among more houses is NOT consistent with mass transit.

Cleeves is about as remote as it gets, and I seriously doubt major sprawl will reach there, even with the addition of a transit line.

 

There's a big difference between "sprawl" and sustainable, transit-oriented development.

 

I think a train to Dayton would have far greater ROI and ridership than a river following Western line.

 

The train to Dayton would be an intercity train running on mainline railroad tracks (i.e., 3C), not a rapid transit line. The maximum feasible length for a typical metro/subway line is about 30 miles or so, and the lines to Hamilton and Mason are already pushing that limit. The primary focus of this project is mass transit within the I-275 loop, not intercity rail service in the state of Ohio.

 

 

  There used to be an interurban that went through Cleves on the way to Aurora and Lawrenceburg, as well as two steam railroads. Prior to that, there were regular riverboats, and for a short time the canal. The entire riverfront is incorporated all the way to Cleves, with the City of Cincinnati extending all the way to Muddy Creek on the border with Addyston. There is definitely a history of transit between Cincinnati and Cleves, though I don't think it was ever a high volume.

 

  The Cleves area was supposed to be the regional metropolis instead of Cincinnati when it was laid out by John Cleves Symmes.

The Cleves area was supposed to be the regional metropolis instead of Cincinnati when it was laid out by John Cleves Symmes.

 

My understanding is while that is what Mr. Symmes' wanted, Cleves was by no means primed to be the center of the regional metropolis.  Instead that was being hotly contested for by Cleves, the area where downtown Cincinnati currently is, and the area out by Columbia Tusculum.

 

  There were three settlements, which were called Columbia, North Bend, and Losantiville, settled in that order.

 

  Columbia, near the site of Lunken Airport, was practically abandoned due to flooding and eventually became part of Cincinnati. The name survives in Columbia Township and the Columbia Tusculum neighborhood.

 

  North Bend flooded as well, though not as badly. It is still there, but has grown very little. North Bend expanded in the railroad and interurban area to Cleves, which became a separate municipality.

 

    Losantiville of course gained pre-eminence due to the fact that it was invulnerable to flooding, which in turn was chosen as the site for a United States fort, Fort Washington. Being at the intersection of two natural routes, the east-west Ohio River and the North-South Great Miami / Mill Creek / Licking River valley ensured that Losantiville would surpass North Bend and Cleves.

 

    In the early days, Lawrenceburg, Indiana was also a contender to become the dominant metropolis. Businessmen constructed a canal from Lawrenceburg to Metamora, Indiana, which was analagous to the canal between Cincinnati and Dayton in the ecomonic battle between two states. However, the Great Miami river valley in Ohio was much more conductive to business than the Whitewater river valley in Indiana. Meanwhile, Cincinnati businessmen cheated on Indiana by construting canal between the Whitewater Canal and Cincinnati, stealing some of the trade from Lawrenceburg. (They were able to pull this off because the Whitewater Canal looped into Ohio for a short distance due to topography.)

 

    So, here was Cleves, on the canal between Metamora and Cincinnati. The canal didn't amount to much, but when a railroad was built on the towpath and extended to Indianapolis, Cleves found itself on the main line between those two great cities.

 

    Today Cleves resembles most any other small midwest town, except that it is just beyond the fringe of a metropolitan area and has attracted a little bit of sprawl development. Interestingly, I-275 bypassed Cleves for a route farther west near Lawrenceburg, whereas in comparable American cities the highway would have passed near Cleves. I-275 is the longest loop of any American interstate ring road, and this decision was based on topography.

 

    John Cleves Symmes is buried near the border between North Bend and Cleves. His tombstone reads, "who at the foot of these hills founded the first settlement" or something like that. His daughter married president William Henry Harrison. His nephew circulated a theory that the earth was hollow and tried to organize an expedition to the center of the earth.

 

    You can't really blame Cleves for thinking that North Bend would become the dominant city. After all, it was near the mouth of the Great Miami. The Great Miami was the primary transportation route at that time. However, there is a short cut from the Ohio River to a point on the Great Miami: the Mill Creek Valley, which goes past Cincinnati and connects Hamilton and Dayton to the Ohio River by a shorter route. By the time the canal and then the railroads were constructed, the Great Miami ceased to be used for navigation.

 

    Many Cleves residents are employed in the Cincinnati market but I doubt that the population is high enough to warrent transit service to downtown. There is a Metro bus route that goes almost to Cleves but ridership is very low.

Thank you for the story, that is very interesting information that I did not know.

Are there any light rail plans?

I updated the Cincinnati Light Rail page after splitting it off from the Cincinnati Light Rail and Streetcars article at UrbanUp:

 

Cincinnati Light Rail

The following is an overview of the various proposals for light rail and commuter rail in and around Cincinnati, Ohio.

 

 

Over the past few days, I’ve uploaded pages pertaining to the project background (including a brief history of rail transit in Cincinnati, and case studies of the Washington Metro and Portland Streetcar systems), rolling stock, and some concluding remarks. Links to the new pages can be found on the menu bar on the left-hand side of the main page at metro-cincinnati.info.

 

With that, the final draft of the project is now complete, and is ready to be submitted to my academic committee for review and comment. I’ll make whatever revisions are necessary during the month of March, and turn in the final submission around the end of the month. It’s not just the academic committee whose job it is to review the project at this point; it’s also yours. As always, your comments, questions, and feedback are appreciated.

 

It's a bit late in the game to make major changes to the routes or stations at this point, but I welcome any feedback about typos, technical glitches, facts that need proper attribution, etc.

 

In the meantime, I’ve got some other papers to work on over the next week, not to mention packing up my apartment. Wish me luck…

Are there any light rail plans?

 

http://www.protransit.com/Maps/Greater-Cincinnati-Regional-Rail-Plan.asp

I'm writing this from St. Louis. This city is no where near as dense as Cincy. I'm talking 2 blocks of parking for 1 block of buildings. Yet, they have a light rail system. Sometimes I just get sick when I think about what Cincinnati could have.

Found information about the 1970s proposal for the light rail system along the former C&O (Indiana) line from Mill Creek to Cheviot... what a shame the line was dismantled.

 

  ^---- In the 1970's a study recommended light rail on both the C&O corridor and the CL&N corridor. At that time, both railroads were in operation as freight railroads, but traffic was light. The study recommended duel freight and passenger use, and outlined the challenges of dual use.

 

    By about 10 years later, freight operation on both lines had ceased.

 

    In the 1990's, CSX, the owner of the C&O right of way, actually approached the City of Cincinnati, asking them if they were interested in purchasing the right of way! The City declined, and the right-of-way was sold to developers. Some segments are still intact, but a light rail line there is less and less feasible with every passing year.

 

   

It's a shame the city never took the opportunity to purchase that corridor. If light rail goes to the west side, it will most likely be along I-74, which is far less convenient to the neighborhood business districts along Glenway, Harrison, etc.

 

  I don't see a lot of value to light rail along I-74. The only viable station would be at North Bend Road, which is an auto-oriented sprawl area.

 

  West-siders know that they will be the last to be connected anyway. No one on the West Side took Metro-Moves seriously.

The I-74 corridor isn't great for light rail, but I think you've got two decent stations out there in North Bend and the Harrison Ave/Rybolt Road interchange.

 

The real west side light rail winner would be right through the heart of the west side in that ROW that has since been gobbled up.  Too bad we sold our rail connection to the west side for a now relocated and defunct Target, closed Circuit City, Pepboys and other assorted schlocky retail.

 

  We might be able to salvage some of our pre-war neighborhoods that had streetcar connections before, but converting a sprawl area to transit oriented is nearly hopeless. The North Bend Road and Rybolt interchanges have a population of maybe 100 people within walking distance of the station.

 

  Metro has a very successful park and ride at North Bend Road but the numbers are still way to small to justify new rail.

How much of the old CSX ROW still exists? If it's occupied primarily by defunct retail operations, then it probably wouldn't take much to buy it back.

Hmmm... anyone know an easy way to overlay old rail lines on current GIS maps in arcGIS? That would be an easy way to compare parcel ownership in the previous rail routings.

normally it's just a matter of "get the data and load it."  Then of course figure out the projection of each datasource (if it's not specified). 

I suppose the tough part is finding the right data...

typically, yes.  We have it good in the US.  Canada and other countries tend to be very protective of GIS data.  Strange but true. 

I have access to CAGIS. Would the CAGIS data have the old abandoned rail line maps there? I've not seen it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there

I can't help you there.  When it comes to IT, I'm more 0's and 1's than content (I don't care what it means; it's all zeros and ones to me).  I'm sure Jake monitors this thread...he might be able to help.  Good luck! 

Thanks.

 

For anyone else... there is only one railroad folder in the FEATURE>basemin folders.

 

    Just by looking at the development it seems that 50% of the right of way is undeveloped intact, mostly in hilly or difficult to develop areas. Some of the right of way may have been sold but not developed.

 

 

I've always dreamed of a streetcar loop running all the way up Glenway through Price Hill, Covedale, and Westwood to Bridgetown Rd then turning right meeting up with Harrison Ave and running that biotch all the way down through Cheviot, Fairmount and Historic Westwood.  Each end would cross 8th street and the Western Hills Viaduct.

 

North Bend and Rybolt would be perfect for Light Rail.  I got stuck behind a bus today on North Bend and was pleasantly surprised to see how many people over there use Metro (I think it was an Xpress).  I say run that all the way down parallel with 74 to Northside, the pick up the subway tunnels off 75.    Next Stop Central Pkwy and Vine!!

something like this?

 

Glenmore would work too!

I certainly wouldn't object to a streetcar line on Harrison Avenue... It would be right outside my front door!

^So you gonna be a westsider LIG?   

 

If it gets to Cheviot, I'm in! 

Yeah, moving to Westwood... You're talking to somebody who was born in Mariemont and grew up in Fort Thomas. I didn't even know Cincinnati had a west side until six months ago... I grew up thinking it was Apache and Navajo territory beyond Mill Creek. :)

Haha, Nice! 

I hear the visa application and orientation are rough. If you start bleeding purple we'll send in a search team.

I think if you get within a 10 foot radios of Price Hill Chili the search team alarm warning goes off.  Keep that in mind.

The west side light rail line was going to involve a new viaduct parallel and south of the Western Hills Viaduct and would have entered the subway at that point just north of the Brighton Station. It would have used the existing C&O trestles, several of which were quite high and dramatic, through the land occupied by Wildcat Self Storage.  Part of the right-of-way parallel to Glenway across from Western Bowl is also self storage. 

 

Central to the whole plan was redevelopment of the Cheviot Railroad Yard as a TOD with a mix of dense housing and commercial.  The property was so large that it would have had two stations.  This is now the Glenway Crossings shopping center. 

 

This line went out to Fernald and the planning envisioned stations out to the Great Miami River. 

 

Meanwhile there would have been a subway extension north from the Western Hills Viaduct to the intersection of Martin Luther King and Burnet Woods Drive.  This obviously would have been a bored tunnel.  The line would have then traveled on the surface of MLK east with branches on the CL&N north to Ridge Rd. and on the surface of Madison out to Hyde Park and Oakley.  The Wasson Rd. line was also studied to Marburg. 

 

The rationale for this tunnel was that it would allow west siders to transfer at Brighton and then head up to the UC/Hospitals area.  If you are familiar with the Brighton station, it has no mezzanine, meaning they would have had to have created an underpass or forced people to walk outside across the street to get on the outbound platform.  In 1981 low platform LRT did not exist yet, so the alternative would have been to rebuild the station as a low platform station and use cars like Buffalo's with the fold-out stairs.  This would have allowed people to walk across the tracks.   

 

It's hard for people now to imagine how much less sprawl there was in Hamilton County in 1981, when the study was completed, than now, and that aside from Fairfield there was none in Butler or Warren Counties. 

I hear the visa application and orientation are rough. If you start bleeding purple we'll send in a search team.

 

Hey! Easy on the bleeding purple comments, a graduate is trolling on here daily! Its one of the core institutions helping to hold Price Hill together. I reside in Columbus for now but I may return one day. I would love to see a line through the west side, but I would like to see it serve the incline district and around Holy Family Church. This area is still very dense with many beautiful old buildings and houses. A stop right at Iliff and Glenway would be great to service a football game!

 

 

I hear the visa application and orientation are rough. If you start bleeding purple we'll send in a search team.

 

It will be rough, but I think I'll survive. I may need to buy a Volvo to compensate, though.

Volvo huh?  Just fore warning ya, your not cool unless you drive a 90's S-10.  They are about as plentiful as the dive bars and churches are over here.  :wink:

 

That's some amazing info that I was unaware of Jake.  That's one hell of a missed opportunity for everyone west of Queensgate! 

It would have used the existing C&O trestles, several of which were quite high and dramatic, through the land occupied by Wildcat Self Storage.

 

I remember those trestles!  That quite a way to get over the Mill Creek and up the Fairmount valley.

something like this?

 

I've always imagined a streetcar line up Delta Rd. Good choice.

Just a quick note to let everybody know that my academic committee has given their final approval for the project. With that, the project is essentially complete, from an academic point of view. Thanks to all who have offered their ideas, advice, and support.

 

The question now becomes: Where do we go from here? I plan on keeping the project website online, but I'm curious as to how it could be enhanced or modified to influence the development of regional rail transit in Greater Cincinnati.

 

Ideas?