1) get a big pile of money

2) build it

 

 

Know anybody that's got $10B burning a hole in their wallet? (Or only $5B if we got 50% federal matching funds?)

 

If the feds funded mass transit with the same 80-20 formula they used to build the interstate highway system, we'd only have to raise $2B locally.

 

Here's something to whip out the next time somebody claims we don't have enough money for transit:

 

 

Sure, if the average number of people per house declines with a steady population, the number of houses will increase. However, spreading the same number of people out among more houses is NOT consistent with mass transit.

 

The number of people per home is declining, but that doesn't mean that we're going to be building more houses and sprawl.  As we see an increase in young single people, older "empty nesters", and nontraditional living arrangements, we'll see less demand for single-family homes and more demand for apartments, townhomes, condos, rowhouses, etc.  I bet this will favor the urban core and actually re-densify our urban neighborhoods.

 

  ^---- Most of the young single people I know are moving into single family homes in the suburbs, and living there all by themselves. Granted, these are older homes, often in first-ring suburbs, but I don't see them flocking to apartments and condos in the city.

Why is Brent Spence sooooo expensive?

Most of the young single people I know are moving into single family homes in the suburbs, and living there all by themselves. Granted, these are older homes, often in first-ring suburbs, but I don't see them flocking to apartments and condos in the city.

 

I think the move back to first-ring suburbs is the first step in a move back to the urban core.  I think outward expansion has really passed its peak.  Many younger people don't understand the previous generation's irrational fear of the city and desire to have hour-long commutes.  The more we invest in our inner city now, the easier it will be to retain this generation.

I agree w/ taestell.  The people moving into OTR are pioneers, and when the transit infrastructure is there the "less adventurous" (those moving to 1st ring burbs) will start moving into the city proper. 

First-ring suburbs will give you a lot of house for less money a shorter commute, but still with a yard. These folks aren't going toward OTR - they however might be the next generation for the streetcar suburbs w/in city boundaries. I actually think the rise in home gardening among the rising adult generation actually mitigates against OTR, but could benefit close in neighborhood with a patch of green.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: Paige E. Malott

p. 513.659.1828

e. [email protected]

 

Local Filmmakers Unearth Cincinnati’s Subway in Documentary

 

CINCINNATI, OH, May 19, 2010 – Cincinnati’s Abandoned Subway, the hour-long documentary onCincinnati’s legendary subway tunnels, is set to premiere at Cincinnati Museum Center, June 9, 2010.

 

The movie was developed by Paige E. Malott and Leland Schuler of Time Bonus Productions.

 

The documentary discusses the creation of the subway, why it failed, and how the unfinished rapid transit loop impacts present-day Cincinnati. Highlights of the program include commentary from local historians and city engineers, vivid footage of the tunnels, as well as a collection of original construction

photographs from the 1920s.

 

Cincinnati’s Abandoned Subway explores the project’s conception in 1916, details of the construction during the 1920s, and its ultimate demise prior to The Great Depression. In the decades since, citizens attempted to revive the project, but for various reasons it was never completed. Without rapid transit,

industry moved out of the area and highways became congested. The current debate over public transportation encourages citizens to look to their past to understand how the lack of the subway affects them today. More importantly, people will recognize how present decisions influence the lifestyles of the

future generations. With renewed interest, could the Cincinnati subway finally be implemented for rapid transit?

 

Tickets for the premiere at Cincinnati Museum Center can be purchased at the door: general admission $12, CMC members $10. Cash only. Doors open at 6:30 p.m., program begins at 7:30 p.m.

 

DVDs of the documentary will also be available at the event, and can be purchased online starting June 10 at www.thecincinnatisubway.com.

 

Time Bonus Productions is an award-winning media company, specializing in documentary production.

 

The collective was founded in 2008 by Paige E. Malott and Leland Schuler.

 

Cincinnati’s Abandoned Subway began production in May 2009, purposed to inform others about the history behind the forgotten tunnels and how this 95-year-old story continues to influence modern Cincinnati.

 

For more information, visit www.thecincinnatisubway.com

Facebook: www.facebook.com/cincinnatisubway

 

Wonder if j-Meck knew about this... He's working on a book on the subject, right?

Daaaaang man, when do I get my signed prerelease copy?

^Seriously.  I didn't even know jmeck was working on a book, but I can't wait to see it now.  There'd better be a signing event for UO members!

I attribute the technical mistakes to a general unfamiliarity with subways and our subway, and mistaken political interpretations to a lack of experience in that arena.

 

On that note, it is interesting how long it takes a political narrative to die in the public consciousness long after it has been debunked by historians (Lost Cause and things relating to slavery and the Civil War are only the most prominent of such narratives).  The purity of the Progressives in cleaning up government is one such narrative.  It's still hard for people to accept the idea that it was Seasongood, et. al. who killed the subway.

 

Not to toot my own horn too much, but I've actually taken the time to track down unindexed materials and materials that were mislabeled in bibliographies. It took a long time because they take about a week to be shipped to town from the book depository in Wilmington and if it's the wrong thing it takes another week. I also looked at almost all 52 boxes of the City Enginneer's records, which Singer didn't touch, and paid to have various old negatives scanned in order to have "new" images, including very rare photos and maps of the Deer Creek Tunnel. For photographs I both took my own in the subway with about $1,000 worth of lighting equipment and photographed the route from a helicopter.

 

Sounds like you rather painstakingly threw this thing together.

...including very rare photos and maps of the Deer Creek Tunnel...

 

I wanna see!

Yeah me too, lol, what's the timeline on the release?

Condit's book is a great resource, and its analysis of the urbanistic implications of railroad terminal and route patterns is very fresh and unexpected for the time it was written (1977).  There's a handful of factual errors however, some of which are pretty glaring, though it's still a well-researched book for the most part.  Hauck's book on the CL&N is also a great resource, and is the only other book besides Condit's that really deals with the Deer Creek tunnel at all.  The CL&N eventually bought out the tunnel's franchise, though I don't recall offhand when that happened in relation to the Pennsylvania Railroad's purchase of the CL&N.  I wonder if any paperwork for the tunnel remained after the Penn Central/Conrail debacle and abandonment of the CL&N in the Deer Creek Valley. 

 

It's interesting to think not only how much different Cincinnati would be today had the subway been completed, but also how those much earlier projects would've shaped the environment of the city had they been completed.  The Deer Creek tunnel project was perfectly positioned to access the canal bed at Eggleston, and Eggleston itself was a route to connect to the Little Miami.  The abortive Cincinnati Western Railroad, when limited construction started in the mid 1850s, planned a downtown terminal at Central Parkway and Plum Street, intending to use the canal towpath from Brighton southward.  Had this corridor been established, along with the Deer Creek tunnel's connection, a union station on Central Parkway would've been almost inevitable.  Condit's book talked about a plan along these lines in the early 20th century, but it was never developed since the railroad approaches didn't exist and the area had been so heavily built up.  Fascinating stuff. 

 

  Jake - put me on the list for your book.

 

  On another note, if anyone is interested in searching for any evidence of the shafts of the Deer Creek tunnel, please let me know. That is, if Jake hasn't already found them.

 

 

Looking forward to the new book, Jake... I'll buy you a beer if you autograph a copy for me!

I've done some general look-arounds for the three vertical shafts in Walnut Hills, but I haven't seen any.  Here's a map I put together based on what little I've been able to find on the location of the excavated sections.  Let's go exploring sometime! 

 

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=103871532514751842563.0004604d5c42d920c2e27&z=14

 

  With a little work, we should be able to get the shaft locations pinpointed to within about 20 feet based on records and maps. Then, we can check those locations, assuming that we can get to them because they may be on private property, and see if there is anything there.

 

 

I almost hate to ask this.  As an ignorant Clevelander, can someone explain in five sentences or less why the city simply doesn't lay down some track and put some old Shaker Rapid cars in the tunnel? Almost all the work is done! Why is this apparently undoable? 

 

Please, I don't want to have to read the whole thread.

 

Thanks in advance. 

Mainly because it doesn't go anywhere.  It ends on the northern outskirts of downtown, not really close enough to Fountain Square to be of much use.  Also, most of the surface right-of-way was obliterated by I-75, so while the tunnels themselves are intact, they don't go very far before you hit a dead-end and need to find a new route.  None of the stations were finished either, they're just concrete shells.  I'm not sure if we know whether the Linn Street station was built at all, since it's walled off from the tunnels with concrete blocks.  There's also a big water main in one of the tunnels, though supposedly they're working to get that removed.  Am I right about that?   

^ That's pretty much it. You'd also have to install signaling and power distribution (including at least a couple new electrical substations), and you'd have to bring the stations up to modern-day ADA compliance, which would mean installing an elevator to each platform.

 

I don't know if you could run Shaker Rapid cars in the tunnels, but you could certainly run MBTA Red Line cars, since the Boston Red Line and Cincinnati subway tunnels were built to the same clearances. Of course, you'd also need a storage yard and maintenance facility for whatever railcars you're running.

 

It probably wouldn't be worth doing as a single line by itself, but it would be worth doing if it were part of a larger regional rail system.

In the unlikely event these get used, I think high speed approach is the most realistic for the foreseeable future. It would take a massive change in settlement patterns to make more than one or two stops along the current path worth having.

That's exactly the example I was thinking of (excavated out of existence I think was the phrase he used for the CL&N tunnel).  There were more, but I can't remember those offhand.  If you think Hauck's book is heavy on facts and anecdotes, have you read any of David McNeil's books on the various interurbans?  A lot of the content is verbatim quotes of newspaper articles, personal accounts, letters, and such.  Perhaps that's what you were referring to as "black & white railfan books."  Nevertheless, McNeil's books are some of the best resources I've ever found precisely for that reason.  It's difficult to question the veracity of a date or event when you have a copy of the actual charter, stock certificate, timetable, or whatever it is right there in the book.  In a way, you can almost say it's like a photocopy of all the primary source information. 

Mainly because it doesn't go anywhere. It ends on the northern outskirts of downtown, not really close enough to Fountain Square to be of much use. Also, most of the surface right-of-way was obliterated by I-75, so while the tunnels themselves are intact, they don't go very far before you hit a dead-end and need to find a new route. None of the stations were finished either, they're just concrete shells. I'm not sure if we know whether the Linn Street station was built at all, since it's walled off from the tunnels with concrete blocks. There's also a big water main in one of the tunnels, though supposedly they're working to get that removed. Am I right about that?

 

Thanks very much, saved me a lot of reading.  Another question.  If the subway had been finished, how would that have affected CincinattI today? Although I haven't been there in many years (live in Seattle now) I though it was a very attractive city, more like a miniature New York than Cleveland is.  Seems like a subway might have kept Cincy growing or are the dynamics different than Cleveland, were a subway also did not get built? 

If the subway had been finished, how would that have affected Cincinnati today?

 

I don't think we'll ever really know.  You could write a whole book just speculating on that alone. 

Just a quick note to let everybody know that my Metro Cincinnati project is the recipient of a Student Excellence Award from DePaul University. Thanks to everybody for your feedback and support over the past year!

 

(Unfortunately, the award doesn't come with $12B in prize money to actually build the project, but I get a nice little plaque to hang on my wall.)

Congrats!

Yeah, I don't really like how two people, who are both interested in relaying interesting historical information about Queen City culture, can be at odds with each other. Mecklenborg, why assume so much about Singer's methodology for writing his book. We know you've done a great deal of research for your own, but why accuse him of distributing faulty historical information.

 

I'm looking forward to the book, but I have seen you slam a few people for even addressing historical information you've found incorrect.

Well, people don't normally write on the same subject to say that "this person who wrote about this before me was exactly right."  The latest biography of Lincoln does not say the same things as the however many dozens or hundreds before it, and when you are saying something different, the nature of the previous work (and its methodology) is going to be discussed. 

So Jake, did your book release happen yet?  I've been out of the loop.

I think it'll be coming out this fall.

Jake's book is now available on Amazon.com:

 

 

Cincinnati's Incomplete Subway: The Complete History

I just got 100 copies shipped to my house today.  Luckily there aren't too many typos, probably less than 10.  I'll have more information on a book release event here shortly.  If you want to buy a copy right now, come to Neon's bar on Thursday night at 8pm. 

 

 

I just got 100 copies shipped to my house today...If you want to buy a copy right now, come to Neon's bar on Thursday night at 8pm. 

 

You mean you're not going to just give them away to your loyal Urban Ohio followers?  :cry:

I just got 100 copies shipped to my house today. Luckily there aren't too many typos, probably less than 10. I'll have more information on a book release event here shortly. If you want to buy a copy right now, come to Neon's bar on Thursday night at 8pm.

 

Why would you do this at the same time a new episode of Community is on the air?

Just think, instead of doing this project this year, I could have just spent all my free time playing guitar hero. 

True story: Some friends and I were sitting with Jake on the patio of Neons when Mark Miller of COAST came up and asked for a copy of (and I quote) "the boondoggle book".

 

On an unrelated note: Anybody know what's happening on Central Parkway in the vicinity of the Liberty Street, Linn Street, and Brighton stations? Fairly extensive construction barricades have been set up in those areas, but I don't see any actual construction work yet.

 

They already did some repairs to the tunnels earlier this year and re-paved all of that section of Central Parkway this summer, so it doesn't seem like it would make much sense to start digging stuff back up again.

True story: Some friends and I were sitting with Jake on the patio of Neons when Mark Miller of COAST came up and asked for a copy of (and I quote) "the boondoggle book".

From a COA T standpoint, one would have to ask, "Which boondoggle?"

From MarkWMiller on Twitter:

Reading Jake's subway boondoggle book by firelight. Have to check turn radius stats vs old RR books when I get home. So far very impressed.

True story: Some friends and I were sitting with Jake on the patio of Neons when Mark Miller of COAST came up and asked for a copy of (and I quote) "the boondoggle book".

 

On an unrelated note: Anybody know what's happening on Central Parkway in the vicinity of the Liberty Street, Linn Street, and Brighton stations? Fairly extensive construction barricades have been set up in those areas, but I don't see any actual construction work yet.

 

They already did some repairs to the tunnels earlier this year and re-paved all of that section of Central Parkway this summer, so it doesn't seem like it would make much sense to start digging stuff back up again.

 

I was curious about this too.  It's made me wonder if there have been some problems with the replacement chunks of subway tunnel.  There's equipment stashed up at the portals at the north end of the tunnels, as well.

I have no idea what Mark Miller is talking about with the turn radius, other than it's some attempt to confirm the preposterous "the curves are too tight" story.  I've never seen the official radius of the Plum Street turn, but it's probably 150 feet or more, so well within the design specs of light rail vehicles.

I would like the word "boondoggle" eradicated. It seems like this annoying word is applied to every situation these days. Although, I'm not sure why COAST needs to have an agenda against a subway project that is long since canceled.

I'm not sure why COAST needs to have an agenda against a subway project that is long since canceled.

 

They try to use its failure as some sort of proof that transit isn't viable here. 

I would like the word "boondoggle" eradicated. It seems like this annoying word is applied to every situation these days. Although, I'm not sure why COAST needs to have an agenda against a subway project that is long since canceled.

 

I have a book about Cincinnati from the early 1980's that calls the subway a "boondoggle."  Seems like it's been around awhile!

It reminds me of how Apple Computers was always referred to as "beleaguered" in the late 90s.  There's something ugly about these "B" words. 

Over-the-Rhine is always "struggling". 

I would like the word "boondoggle" eradicated. It seems like this annoying word is applied to every situation these days. Although, I'm not sure why COAST needs to have an agenda against a subway project that is long since canceled.

 

Not to mention it's such a horrible sounding word. Everytime someone uses it, it sounds as if they made the word up.

There is really only one tax power subsidized beleaguered, struggling, boondoggle in Cincinnati and it has nothing to do w/ transit - it is the Bengals and their godforsaken stadium and horrid regime behind it including Berding and Bedinghaus.