There are a handful of stops near the wealthy east side towns on this line. But growing up in Milford, I can assure you that the terminus of this line, and the intended beneficiaries of the Eastern Corridor plan in general, are pretty middle class. The only thing this entire plan is going to do is open up more of central Clermont County to suburban development.

 

I can't imagine that being the case. Most of the growth in Clermont County has slowed way down in favor of sprawl to the north. The Eastern Corridor will serve as a commuter route for people living to the east and working downtown, but I can't imagine it would spur new development in the way light rail would.

^ People who would move to Mason, West Chester, or Florence will take a look at Clermont County as a similar place with less traffic problems.

 

It will spur development, but that development is zero-sum as it doesn't make the region more attractive to outsiders. The development will also be high on the infrastructure-per-capita ratio, making it a drain on the region as it requires large subsidies, the first one being the building of the roads.

There are a handful of stops near the wealthy east side towns on this line. But growing up in Milford, I can assure you that the terminus of this line, and the intended beneficiaries of the Eastern Corridor plan in general, are pretty middle class. The only thing this entire plan is going to do is open up more of central Clermont County to suburban development.

 

I can't imagine that being the case. Most of the growth in Clermont County has slowed way down in favor of sprawl to the north. The Eastern Corridor will serve as a commuter route for people living to the east and working downtown, but I can't imagine it would spur new development in the way light rail would.

 

It won't spur the kind we want. I strongly believe that Clermont has slowed because of access problems. Real Estate's my family's business, and I can't even count the number of transplants that won't even live in Miami Township because its perceived by new residents as being much further away than Mason or even Lebanon. There's nothing special about Goshen Township compared to ones in Warren County in the 1980's. It simply doesn't have access to anything.

 

Plus I'm talking about the corridor plan in general, which is clearly to put a freeway through Newtown and is only secondarily about commuter rail.

Well, it kind of slowed but is still one of the fastest growing counties in Ohio.

 

1940 34,109 14.5%

1950 42,182 23.7%

1960 80,530 90.9%

1970 95,725 18.9%

1980 128,483 34.2%

1990 150,187 16.9%

2000 177,977 18.5%

2010 197,363 10.9%

 

Based on this growth, I would expect to see a 8-11% growth for 2020 if the economic situation improves. Losing the Ford Batavia Transmission facility hurt, and losing Eastgate as a commercial clout would be even worse - although that may be reversing. You don't want to see development occurring further east or north!

 

Comparing that to the more exurbian and still very much rural/agricultural Brown County:

 

1940 21,638 7.4%

1950 22,221 2.7%

1960 25,178 13.3%

1970 26,635 5.8%

1980 31,920 19.8%

1990 34,966 9.5%

2000 42,285 20.9%

2010 44,846 6.1%

 

As for further east in the exurbs (and Brown County), Mt. Orab saw a 59% growth from 2,307 to 3,664, Georgetown went from 3,691 to 4,331, a 17.3% increase, and Williamsburg (in Clermont County) went from 2,358 to 2,490, a 5.6% increase. Almost all of this development is along the Ohio State Route 32 corridor.

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean the villages benefit. One of the biggest development strings is now along the Tri-County Highway, or what was Ohio State Route 74 until 1962. The Williamsburg Township and the township just to the east is seeing ribbon and strip development outside of the village limit. Check out the property lines at http://g.co/maps/be8ta for a rough estimate, and the sprawl development now occurring.

 

BTW, is there a place I can find township population data? I've compiled the information for population growth over 10 years along OH 32 in Clermont and Brown counties for fun, but would find it really interesting to see the growth in the townships.

http://www.development.ohio.gov/research/documents/ALLSUBCOUNTY2010.pdf

 

Open that in a real pdf reader to get table of contents shortcuts.

 

I think the best way to tell the story is that Warren's growth rate declined by about 9% from 2000 to 2010. Clermont's growth rate declined by 60%.

no, largest city without a rail system is detroit, unless you count the people mover and its 3 mile loop around the CBD

 

... and I don't count the PM.  Plus, isn't San Antonio larger than Cincy (metro wise)?  As far as I know, San Antonio has no rail either....

 

... and it's a shame about Cincinnati because it would be (... let's keep saying WILL be), such a great city for rapid transit -- better than either sprawling metros like Detroit or San Antonio.

 

That is correct.  San Antonio is the country's largest metropolitan area without ANY sort of rail transit.  Detroit is currently building their LRT so it should be off the list (plus, they do have the People Mover, even if it isn't high quality, it's still rapid transit).

no, largest city without a rail system is detroit, unless you count the people mover and its 3 mile loop around the CBD

 

... and I don't count the PM.  Plus, isn't San Antonio larger than Cincy (metro wise)?  As far as I know, San Antonio has no rail either....

 

... and it's a shame about Cincinnati because it would be (... let's keep saying WILL be), such a great city for rapid transit -- better than either sprawling metros like Detroit or San Antonio.

 

In 2004, when the posts you're replying to were posted, Cincinnati's metro was larger than San Antonio's.

Still, isn't Columbus the largest metro without any rail whatsoever?

If you're talking Amtrak, then yes, Columbus is the largest metro without any sort of rail.

Still, isn't Columbus the largest metro without any rail whatsoever?

 

Erased. Winter Park has Amtrack.

 

 

That is correct.  San Antonio is the country's largest metropolitan area without ANY sort of rail transit.  Detroit is currently building their LRT so it should be off the list (plus, they do have the People Mover, even if it isn't high quality, it's still rapid transit).

 

San Antonio is served by Amtrak, averaging three trains per day. In 2010 there were 58,131 who used the San Antonio Amtrak station.

 

 

If you're talking Amtrak, then yes, Columbus is the largest metro without any sort of rail.

 

Metro Las Vegas is pretty close to Metro Columbus in population, and Las Vegas has no rail service (Amtrak, commuter, light rail etc).

 

 

I believe that distinction remains with Orlando for now, as their commuter project is not yet out of the ground.

 

Nope. Orlando is served by four Amtrak trains a day, used by 159,533 passengers per year.

Still, isn't Columbus the largest metro without any rail whatsoever?

 

I believe that distinction remains with Orlando for now, as their commuter project is not yet out of the ground.

 

Orlando has an Amtrak station.

^You "corrected" me in the time it took for me to open the edit window, edit the post, leave the desk for a few minutes to do something, come back, and hit "accept."

 

Kind of annoying. But it's the sign of an active forum!

That is correct.  San Antonio is the country's largest metropolitan area without ANY sort of rail transit.  Detroit is currently building their LRT so it should be off the list (plus, they do have the People Mover, even if it isn't high quality, it's still rapid transit).

 

San Antonio is served by Amtrak, averaging three trains per day. In 2010 there were 58,131 who used the San Antonio Amtrak station.

 

 

If you're talking Amtrak, then yes, Columbus is the largest metro without any sort of rail.

 

Metro Las Vegas is pretty close to Metro Columbus in population, and Las Vegas has no rail service (Amtrak, commuter, light rail etc).

 

 

LOL...but they've got the Monorail. 

You were corrected twice. Look at the previous message on the previous page. ;-)

 

EDIT: third correction.... Amtrak (note the spelling, BTW), stops in downtown Orlando, suburban Winter Park, Kissimmee and Sanford -- all in Metro Orlando. The Sanford station is served only by Amtrak's daily Auto Train -- its only station in Florida.

Lol..sorry Civvik.  My bad.

You were corrected twice. Look at the previous message on the previous page.

 

I was actually talking to you! But then when I posted about being corrected, someone else corrected me! Ahhhhh!

 

LOL

This is off the top of my head, so please add any corrections. A sticky thread could be made for this. This convo pops up in some thread about every 8 weeks.

 

My comments:

 

Los Angeles has a heavy rail subway in addition to light rail and commuter rail, but the LA streetcar is still on the drawing boards.

Philadelphia has light rail and streetcars.

You could make an argument that the Chicago metro area has streetcars if you count Kenosha's historic streetcar line (which I believe connects to the Metra commuter rail station).

I might be wrong, but I think Miami also has commuter rail in addition to the heavy rail Metro.

Washington, DC has MARC and VRE commuter rail service in addition to Metro.

Boston has light rail, and the Mattapan extension of the Red Line could be considered either light rail or streetcar. (It uses historic PCC streetcars, but runs on a dedicated right-of-way.)

The Riverside - San Bernardino area has Metrolink commuter rail service into Los Angeles.

Baltimore has a heavy rail subway line.

Denver might have a commuter rail line (either operating or maybe proposed), but I'm not certain.

Portland has one commuter rail line in addition to MAX light rail and the streetcar.

I believe Austin, TX has a commuter rail line, either operating or on the boards.

The Virginia Beach / Norfolk area has light rail (and possibly VRE commuter rail into Washington, but I might be wrong about that).

Providence, RI has MBTA commuter rail into Boston.

Milwaukee has proposed a streetcar line, but I'm unsure of its current status.

Jacksonville, FL has an automated people mover system downtown -- more useful than Detroit's -- but I'm not sure where that would fit on the chart (maybe a new "Other" category for monorails, people movers, etc.)

Richmond, VA might be part of the VRE commuter rail system.

I don't think the Raleigh area has commuter rail or light rail yet, but it has been proposed.

Buffalo, NY has a light rail line.

Portland has the WES

Philadelphia has light rail.

Boston has light rail.

Buffalo has light rail (NFTA).

Norfolk has light rail (The Tide).

Miami has commuter rail (Tri-Rail).

Riverside/San Bernadino has commuter rail (Metrolink).

Washington DC has commuter rail (MARC and VRE)

San Jose is served by commuter rail and light rail, and I believe has a heavy-rail BART extension planned/funded.

Charlotte has a funded commuter rail plan.

Kansas City has light rail planning funded.

Providence has commuter rail (MBTA).

Memphis has a streetcar.

Austin has light rail/commuter hybrid. I'd call it commuter rail though since its FRA-regulated.

Portland, OR has commuter rail (the Beaverton line).

Indianapolis has light-rail in planning.

Minneapolis has commuter rail (North Star line).

Raleigh does NOT have commuter rail. One was planned but was halted.

Detroit has a commuter rail project that's funded and under construction.

Baltimore has heavy rail (Metro subway out to Owings Mills).

 

I may have missed a few.

By the way, in addition to Wikipedia and official transit agency sites, this is a great resource for exploring US/World rail transit systems.

Cincinnati has Amtrak/heavy rail. I can see why you might not want to count it, considering the level of service. But it's there.

Amtrak is not heavy rail transit. It's railroad service, not transit service.

Amtrak is not heavy rail transit. It's railroad service, not transit service.

 

Can you explain the difference?

Transit is within an urban area, usually operated by a metropolitan transit agency. It can be a bus, a streetcar, a heavy train that runs on electrified tracks and is almost always separate from normal roads, a light train that is powered by an overhead wire and can run on separate tracks or in normal roads, a donkey-pulled parade float, or a wiremobile.

 

"Railroads" or intercity rail connects cities to each other.

BTW, the revamped eastern corridor website has a light rail train pictured on its front page, not a diesel commuter train:

 

http://www.easterncorridor.org

I thought their preferred vehicle was Diesel Multiple Unit?

Amtrak is not heavy rail transit. It's railroad service, not transit service.

 

Can you explain the difference?

 

This page describes the most common modes of rail travel. The terms "light rail" and "heavy rail" are misleading, since they refer to passenger capacity, not physical weight. In fact, most "light rail" trains have a heavier per-axle weight than most "heavy rail" trains. There is virtually no difference in track construction between the two modes, although the power systems may differ.

 

Amtrak and commuter rail fall into the realm of mainline railroads regulated by the FRA, which are usually strictly separated from light rail and heavy rail systems, although some rare exceptions occur. (This distinction is somewhat unique to the United States. In the UK, for example, some London Underground trains operate on mainline commuter tracks outside of central London.)

San Antonio is served by Amtrak, averaging three trains per day. In 2010 there were 58,131 who used the San Antonio Amtrak station.

 

I said rail transit.  I wouldn't exactly call an Amtrak train three times a day "transit."

 

Metro Las Vegas is pretty close to Metro Columbus in population, and Las Vegas has no rail service (Amtrak, commuter, light rail etc).

 

Las Vegas does have a monorail for transit.  That's a bit more than Detroit and Tampa (the Ybor streetcar?  *psssh*).

 

Dallas has a Streetcar (along McKinney Avenue; historic to boot!)

 

Las Vegas is a unique case as it has a monorail for transit purposes, which I guess capacity wise would be "heavy-rail" without third rail (or even a second!).  Of course you could argue Seattle having one as well.

The Las Vegas Monorail is also the only privately built public transit line in the country, so it deserves an asterisk.  Or maybe an umlaut.

Hä!

Amtrak is not heavy rail transit. It's railroad service, not transit service.

 

Who said anything about transit? Civvik's chart says heavy rail.

 

Cincinnati also has the Delta Train and the Zoo Train, plus a railroad that runs passenger excursions. You have to count the zoo train; it even shows up on JJacucyk's rail map :)

^ Did you even bother to read the follow up responses to natininja's question?

 

The list would be ten times as long if it included every dinner train, museum line, amusement park ride, and airport people mover in the US. We're talking about rail as a means of public transportation from one part of a metropolitan area to another.

^I only saw Civvik's chart.

 

Plus, I just had to mention the zoo train.  :angel:

 

And once again, the Delta Train, though not a long route, goes to show that people WILL ride the train if it is clean, safe, convenient, and fast. It is an example of mass transit that works. I like to bring that up every once in a while for those who say that no one will ride transit in Cincinnati.

 

Sorry for the rambling. Carry on.

No one will ride a train that goes nowhere, don't connect any major attractions, and is barely faster than walking. The airport tram is a boondoggle!

The list would be ten times as long if it included every dinner train, museum line, amusement park ride, and airport people mover in the US. We're talking about rail as a means of public transportation from one part of a metropolitan area to another.

 

This is why I hesitate to add another category for all the donkey-pulled parade floats. The Vegas monorail is pretty legit, but something about it just says amusement park ride to me...I dunno. Adding a whole other column just for that...I'll probably just add it to Heavy Rail.

 

I would just delete Vegas as a city if I could, but I'd probably offend someone.

ME!  YOU'D OFFEND ME!!!  BACK OFF MY BUFFETS!!!

 

But in all seriousness, it "seems" amusement park-ish because the monorail has been associated with such (The Mouse, Geauga Lake, hell, even Kings Island-turned-Jungle Jim's Parking Lot Attraction).  But for Las Vegas, it really is their system of transit between "attractions" (and a convention center).  If anything, that thing in Ybor City is more of an amusement park attraction (Main Street USA with second-rate Cuban food).

Amtrak is not heavy rail transit. It's railroad service, not transit service.

 

Can you explain the difference?

 

This page describes the most common modes of rail travel. The terms "light rail" and "heavy rail" are misleading, since they refer to passenger capacity, not physical weight. In fact, most "light rail" trains have a heavier per-axle weight than most "heavy rail" trains. There is virtually no difference in track construction between the two modes, although the power systems may differ.

 

Amtrak and commuter rail fall into the realm of mainline railroads regulated by the FRA, which are usually strictly separated from light rail and heavy rail systems, although some rare exceptions occur. (This distinction is somewhat unique to the United States. In the UK, for example, some London Underground trains operate on mainline commuter tracks outside of central London.)

 

That's probably the biggest difference -- who is regulating it. The Federal Transit Administration regulates heavy rail. The Federal Railroad Administration regulates Amtrak. And, of course, there's always services that mix in elements of the two -- and that's commuter rail. They are trains that often run on the same tracks as freight trains and Amtrak trains, but can be regulated by both the FTA and the FRA. However, most of their funding comes from the FTA, so they are often considered as rail transit.

No one will ride a train that goes nowhere, don't connect any major attractions, and is barely faster than walking. The airport tram is a boondoggle!

I doubt that. There is no other way for the public to get from concourse to concourse.

No one will ride a train that goes nowhere, don't connect any major attractions, and is barely faster than walking. The airport tram is a boondoggle!

I doubt that. There is no other way for the public to get from concourse to concourse.

 

sar·casm/ˈsärˌkazəm/

Noun:

The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

The Las Vegas monorail probably has the lowest sober ridership of all transit systems.

The Las Vegas monorail probably has the lowest sober ridership of all transit systems.

 

That and the New Orleans streetcars.

The patrons of retirement community vans no doubt are the most drugged. 

Thanks for the clarifications, Civvik, LiG, & KJP.

 

KJP, could you clarify something please?

 

How does the FRA refer to the lines they regulate? Do they use the word "railroad," or something else?

No, all are referred to railroad. But there are different kinds of railroad rights of way and are regulated in terms of safety standards by how companies have designed and maintained them....

 

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/PubAffairs/Track%20Standards%20fact%20sheet%20FINAL.pdf