November 17, 200519 yr I thought I would share this timely article from the weekly Detroit Metro Times. Author Keith Schneider works for the Michigan Land Use Institute in northwest Michigan, and is often published in the Detroit newspapers as well as the New York Times. The content, debate, demographics...pretty much everything, are similar to the situation facing Ohio's large cities. For those not knowledgable about Southeast Michigan geography, Oakland County is a suburban county just across Eight Mile Road, the northern city limit of Detroit (which is in Wayne County). Roads Not Working http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=8487
November 17, 200519 yr By the way, I forget to post the link I'd promised in my previous message.... http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_brt007.htm "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 17, 200519 yr Here's an economic case for stronger pro-transit policy in Ohio. I get a kick out of some of the stats. The link here is a bit dated (1997), but would be even more true now, as ridership on systems in St. Louis, Washington, and even Amtrak has increased tremendously in the past 8 years. http://www.walkablestreets.com/transit.htm
November 18, 200519 yr Mr. Sparkle, I want to apologize for the tone of my posts yesterday. I was a bit cranky, but that's no excuse. No problemo, for some reason that day, I was opinionated...usually I just lurk ;-)
February 6, 200619 yr Article from today's Post about continued efforts for rail development in Cincinnati. I find it atrocious that Stephan Louis, a man who is steadfastly anti-rail, is on the SORTA board. http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060206/NEWS01/602060351 John Schneider and Wally Pagan remain steadfast in their quests to bring motorists in Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky relief from ever-increasing traffic congestion. Schneider, chairman of the Cincinnati-based Alliance for Regional Transit and a light-rail advocate, accompanied yet another group of area leaders on a tour of the light rail and street car system in Portland, Ore., late last year. Pagan, president of Southbank Partners, a Newport-based economic development group for Northern Kentucky's river cities, has his eye on creating a street car route along Covington's 12th Street and, eventually, looping through the downtowns of Cincinnati, Covington and Newport. Click on link for article.
February 6, 200619 yr This is an email i got back when i was trying to find out some info on this very subject "Jim Tarbell, many others and I have been to Portland with John Schneider to look at both light rail and streetcars. Streetcars would help Cincinnati become a more pedestrian city. Streetcars are not so much about transportation as about stimulating development. The Pearl District in Portland is the preeminent example. Some of us are proponents of a downtown system that would connect the Banks to McMicken Avenue. I have heard that UC is interested in some kind of streetcar system, perhaps to connect with an interchange at Martin Luther King. My understanding is that, at the present, they aim to extend the reach of their shuttle busses. If that system works well, they might move to streetcars. Mike Moose"
February 6, 200619 yr To County Auditor Dusty Rhodes.... or should that be "Roads"(?) ... What's changed since the last levy in 2002? How about traffic? Your own County Engineer has publically acknowledged that the Cincinnati area is in a traffic crisis and that highways alone cannot meet the need to deal with rapidly increasing traffic levels, especially freight hauled by trucks. I heard him kake these comments last year at an OKI-hosted meeting on the Ohio Hub statewide rail plan. Auditor Rhodes/"Roads" ignorance is surpassed only by his arrogance in saying light rail is too expensive. Compared to what?...more highways? Major transportation projects are expensive, no matter what mode. The more important question is can Hamilton County and surrounding communities afford much longer to delay action on light rail, or the commuter-rail envision for the Eastern Corridor. A well-planned system of fast, frequent light rail, commuter and intercity passenger trains can provide a far more attractive option to spending time in traffic jams that are only destined to get worse. And, oh by the way Mr. Rhodes/"Roads" and Mr. Louis, it is pretty well established that the construction of such system will be a major creator of jobs and the operation of such systems will attract new economic development and even more jobs. Gentlemen, pull your thinking about rail transportation out of the 1940's era that your brains seem to be locked into. We're in a new century with new and more urgent needs.
February 7, 200619 yr I can truly feel for your plight in Cincy! We here in Cleveland, have a rail system, but it leaves a lot to be desired! It seems that Transportation leaders in evey city in this state are so anti rail it makes me sick. There is no reason the big three cities don't have (or have better) rail systems within the city...and also...there is no reason that we don't already have a heavy rail system that connect the big three cities! I guess it makes more sense to our leader to keep tearing down houses and pouring more cement.....maybe one day we can hope to have ten lanes going in each direction on all of our highways! (If you transportation leaders are reading this....that was SARCASM!)
February 7, 200619 yr What's up with Ohio? Don't they know you have to spend money to make money? Get these things built, the developers will notice and start to build more. Which means more taxes taken in.
February 7, 200619 yr I had the pleasure of taking the Coast Starlight Amtrak train from Seattle to Portland, and it was the most pleasant travel experience I've ever had. Extremely affordable too, at only $34 each way. I would ride trains everywhere if they were available. Driving makes me so nervous.
February 7, 200619 yr Maria, Tell that to Governor Taft and your state reps. And while you're at it, let your member of Congress hear your story as well. Then, if you want to get active in the effort to get that kind of service in Ohio, consider joining All Aboard Ohio.... http://www.ohioansforpassengerrail.com/cms/index.php You can also see what the State of Ohio is planning for passenger rail at this link to the Ohio Rail Development Commission: http://www.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/
February 8, 200619 yr I had the pleasure of taking the Coast Starlight Amtrak train from Seattle to Portland, and it was the most pleasant travel experience I've ever had. Extremely affordable too, at only $34 each way. I would ride trains everywhere if they were available. Driving makes me so nervous. I am now living in New London, CT and I can take the train to and from Boston very easily and cheaply. I have always wanted rail in Cincinnati and now that I live in New England I see how useful it is.
February 8, 200619 yr I grew up in Connecticut (near Bridgeport) and you are right on about the convenience of having passenger rail virtually at your doorstep. You are also in a particularly scenic area along the coast, which the railroad follows quite nicely. I envy you being able to go to Yankees and Red Sox games and being able to go by train.
February 10, 200619 yr Something was in the news today about a making a connectiuon with Newport, Covington and Cincinnati in like a loop.
February 11, 200619 yr Check out this link: http://www.skyloop.org/ Does anyone remember this? I think they proposed it when Cincinnati was bidding for the 2012 Olympics. I personally liked this more than trains, that is if you have a small family.
February 11, 200619 yr I'm not sure what having a small family has to do with the rail vs. PRT argument. Please explain. PRT has never proven to be more than a curiosity due to its attempt to combine the best of driving and rail transit while accomplishing none of either. It's slow, cost ineffective, obtrusive, ugly, has limited access points due to its elevated stations, not as accessible by people with disabilities, restricts social interaction with other people and just plain goofy. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 11, 200619 yr ^ We have a thread on the Sky Loop, any further dialogue about it needs to be discussed here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5967.0
February 12, 200619 yr no, largest city without a rail system is detroit, unless you count the people mover and its 3 mile loop around the CBD The people mover in Detroit is awesome but it doesn't really go very far. I took it from the renaissance center where i was staying, to Greek Town, and realized I could have walked there in the same time frame lol. Its fun to ride though and was only 50 cents so I can't complain.
February 12, 200619 yr Miami has a pretty extensive people mover, it's so f*cking hot down there walking around downtown during the middle of the day is a chore. Things are spread out, there are a lot of parking lots retaining heat, and the sea breeze is a mile or two away. Also Miami has a heavy rail transit line but its downtown stations are an obscene distance from being in the thick of downtown. Anyone who ever argues for some sort of trolley or people mover or whatever as a cheaper way to distribute people from a heavy transit line through a downtown area should take a trip down there and see why it doesn't work. That's why I'm more than skeptical of streetcar plans for Cincinnati. I used to ride the #78 a lot and it took upwards of an hour to get from downtown to my place by the zoo, 3.5 miles. A lot of times it took over 20 minutes just to get near UC. A streetcar caught up in traffic and with stops on every other block isn't going to beat those times, especially after they dumped the Mt. Auburn tunnel plans. There is some potential for exclusive right-of-way on wide streets like Clifton Ave. and Jefferson but these clowns are really going to blow it if there isn't some grade separation.
February 13, 200619 yr I just got back from Boston and everytime I go there I fall more and more in love with Subways/light rail. I just cannot help but picturing Cincinnati with it.
February 14, 200619 yr Did anyone catch this? I know this idea has been discussed as a possibility for quite a while: Streetcar Desire Two set to roll out new rail master plan Dan Monk Senior Staff Reporter A pair of local rail enthusiasts is preparing to go public with a new concept for rail transit in Cincinnati, one that could link the region's two largest job centers and connect downtown's convention complex with tourist attractions from the Ohio River to the Cincinnati Zoo. "I really think it'll work," said Michael Moose, a partner in charge of special projects for the downtown-based architectural firm Glaserworks. Moose has been working with Clifton Heights developer Dan Deering to create a master plan and financing strategy for a streetcar system that would run along Race and Elm between McMicken Avenue in Over-the-Rhine and Paul Brown Stadium. Click on link for article. http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2006/02/13/story2.html
February 14, 200619 yr I like the idea of a streetcar up Elm and down Race. It would be especially useful for conventioneers and tourists. Not many suits are going to Music Hall or Findlay right from their office. But I don't think it's the right time to resurrect the Bellevue incline. Heavier-duty light rail is what we need to connect downtown's business core to Uptown and beyond, with no connections necessary.
February 14, 200619 yr I agree, I think we need light rail. Something to connect Clifton to Downtown, and Newport to Cincinnati would be really great. I used to take the 17 bus from McMillan by UC, to downtown and the bus was always ridiculously crowded to the point where there was barely room to stand. I think it would benefit a lot of people. Even if it doesn't benefit you in your own neighborhood it's doing good things for the city as a whole, but some people have trouble understanding that. :|
February 16, 200619 yr This week's City Beat has cover story by John Schneider about rail transit in Cincinnati. http://citybeat.com/2006-02-15/cover.shtml I don't agree with all of it, but it's a good read. Nick Spencer chimed in on it on his blog. http://nickspencer.blogspot.com/2006/02/streetcars-and-contemporary-art.html
February 20, 200619 yr Me and a few of my friends went down into an entrance from Central Parkway last summer and it was pretty interesting. I've read a lot about the subway but I've never found any information on how to get into the more interesting part, downtown. From what I've been told, it can be a lot more intricate than what it is a little south of hopple street. I heard they used to give guided tours of the subway, does anyone know if this will ever happen again? I was told that the city uses some of the space for storage but I sure wish they would utilize it better.
February 20, 200619 yr Does anyone know if there will be any future tours of it? I'd be willing to pay the 50 bucks
February 20, 200619 yr Read the last thread I posted and you'll find this: This is somewhat related. It's the Heritage Programs at the Museum Center. You have to call ahead and pre-pay by credit card. (513) 287-7031. Behind-the-Scenes Tour of Union Terminal, 9 a.m.-12:30 p.m. Feb. 18; $30, $25 members; registration deadline Feb. 13: The 3&1/2-hour walking tour pokes into nooks and crannies the public never sees, including a 182-step climb into the rafters above the rotunda and a stroll into the façade's illuminated clock. Warning: It's an annual tour and sells out every year.
February 20, 200619 yr David: Heritage Programs is doing the subway tour this year but it too sells out every year. I signed up days after it was announced last year and got on the early 9three tours in a day) tour as all others had sold out.
February 24, 200619 yr http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityfinance/pages/-7979-/ Check out RFQ-RFQ126DOTESUBWAY-0-2006/KM ENGINEERING SERVICES FOR A CINCINNATI SUBWAY CONVERSION STUDY Offeror to provide all necessary services required to conduct a study that would identify the work needed and estimate the cost to convert the rapid transit subway tunnels beneath Central Parkway to light rail transit (LRT) guideways. This would also include converting the three below-grade stations to ADA accessible stations. (See RFQ for complete statement of qualifications requirements.)
February 24, 200619 yr That's great to see! I hope they look at this objectively, and with a strong land-use impact component. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 24, 200619 yr There have been insinuations that Mayor Mallory's administration is going to turn their attention to transit. Looks like they may actually mean business. Good first step.
February 24, 200619 yr Gotta start somewhere. I reiterate an old message of mine that Ohio cities should follow St. Louis' lead, in which that city used the appraised value of an old Mississippi River bridge and some underground freight railroad tunnels downtown as part of that city's local match to leverage a federal grant to build light rail. That federal grant was large enough to build an 18-mile light rail line, including a half-dozen downtown subway stations. In other words, local governments in St. Louis didn't spend a single cent for building their first light-rail line. When that line exceeded ridership projections, there was enough local support for a new transit tax to build a second rail line and now a third is under construction. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 24, 200619 yr Didn't know that about St. Louis. That is an excellent model to follow. In fact, Cincinnati already followed it, sort of. The failed Metro Moves plan included the constructed subway tunnels as part of the local match. Unfortunately, since the plan was so big, that amount only covered part of the local match, and the tax levy went down in flames. The lesson then would be to start small using the tunnels to cover a good deal of the local match, so a tax isn't necessary.
February 24, 200619 yr This is good to see, but let's be cautious here. These tunnels have been studied in the past and are believed to be too narrow for LRT trains. Another question that needs to be answered is whether or not they can still serve Cincinnati's needs, given how the city has grown and changed. This is not to say that a fresh engineering study can't or won't find a way to use them. I hope they do. Regardless, I think it is a good sign that Mayor Mallory's administration is moving on LRT. It is encouraging that this is coming from City Hall and not the local transit authority. That may help swing support in a city and county that have been notoriously anit-light rail.
February 25, 200619 yr I've read from several places that light-rail trains should have no trouble fitting in the tunnels. In fact, below is a very interesting article from 2002, in which a Parsons Brinckerhoff rep and the former Metro GM were quoted as to the whether the tunnels could still be used. Plus, they also note the tunnels could provide a local contribution of up to $100 million to leverage a federal share. I believe St. Louis' local contribution (the combined appraised value of the Mississippi River bridge and downtown freight tunnels) was about $80 million. http://www.forgottenoh.com/News/sub2002.html (click on the link to see subway pictures) Monday, July 29, 2002 Abandoned subway could save light rail plan ----- Tunnels in right spots and still usable, planners say By James Pilcher [email protected] The Cincinnati Enquirer The musty smell and graffiti are definitely there, as is the long-standing reputation as one of the city's biggest embarrassments. But that's not what transportation planners see when they look at the 80-year-old subway tunnels underneath Central Parkway. In fact, the 2.2 miles of concrete tubes - never used for the purpose for which they were designed - could eventually become the savior of the effort to bring light rail to the region. ......... “That investment that the city initially made could be worth 40-50 times that now, and I would imagine people would take that,” says Paul Jablonski, chief executive officer and general manager of Metro. “They're there, so why not use them?” ........ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 25, 200619 yr I took part in the MetroMoves plan when lightrail was first put on the ballot, among other things (bus, hubs, etc.). I'm ready to get moving on lightrail ASAP!!! Come on city hall do the right thing here and get this thing going!!!!
February 25, 200619 yr When Mark Mallory was in the Ohio Senate, he was helpful to those of us pushing the high-speed rail Ohio Hub System. He cosponsored a couple pieces of rail-related legislation we were seeking and did all the right things for us, like going to bat for us among his Senate colleagues and so forth. He will be an asset to pro-transit interests in Cincinnati, and it looks like he's off to an early start. Imagine what that subway could enable if used as a local match for a federal grant. I wouldn't be surprised if Cincy could leverage a large enough federal grant to afford going as far north as I-275 along I-75, and possibly south into Covington. The alternatives analysis is already under way with OKI's I-75 study. After 80+ years, it's time to finish the subway and start a new transit chapter in Cincy! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 15, 200619 yr Subway plan resurfaces City study to take another look at abandoned tunnels BY GREGORY KORTE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER A city study due by the end of the year could decide - after a century of planning, construction and long periods of neglect - the future of Cincinnati's abandoned subway tunnels. The Cincinnati Department of Transportation & Engineering wants to know how much the 80-year-old tunnels are worth, the cost to bring them up to today's building codes and the feasibility of using them for a modern subway system. The city also is looking at extending the system south to Third Street. If that doesn't work, one option is to abandon the tubes and stations and fill them in, according to the city's request to potential consultants for the study. ........ http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060315/NEWS01/603150347/1077
March 15, 200619 yr This too. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060315/NEWS01/603150348/1056 Tunnels full of ghost stories, tours, proposals BY GREGORY KORTE | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER For eight decades, Cincinnati's abandoned subway has been in a time warp - simultaneously stuck in the past and the future. To historians, it's a wonderfully preserved time capsule of the city's corrupt - yet booming - Boss Cox era. To futurists, it's an unfulfilled dream that could yet propel Cincinnati into the class of big-league cities. To cynics, it's the most notorious example of an enduring Cincinnati theme: the colossal white elephant of a public works project that cost taxpayers millions of dollars with little to show for it. .........
March 15, 200619 yr "I'm interested to see what the value of those tunnels are. They could be doing something that makes a lot of sense in the end. You learn to listen first and shoot later," said Stephan M. Louis, chairman of the 2002 Alternatives to Light Rail Transit campaign that helped defeat the sales tax. Now, he's on the inside of transit policy, sitting on the boards of the Southwest Ohio Transit Authority and the Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments. Just lovely...Anti rail advocates should not be on local transportation boards. I get chills thinking about a subway system in Cincinnati. One day I hope to be taking the subway around the city. I still have faith.
March 15, 200619 yr Look at it another way, if an anti-rail twit like this is now an insider, it may force him to moderate his views and look at things differently. It's easy to throw stones when you're on the outide, but when one gets invited into the building one suddenly finds themselves far more accountable for one's actions and views. Don't forget, Louis must now answer to all of the people, not just his cronies.
March 15, 200619 yr ^ Thank you for looking at it as the "glass half full". We need more of that around here.
March 15, 200619 yr This jumped out at me from the article. "It's not the first time the city has dusted off its old subway drawings, which have been meticulously preserved in city archives. Engineering reports through the years have determined that the tubes are large enough to accommodate modern light-rail cars - even around the sharp northward turn the tunnels take at Plum Street." That's an interesting revelation, and seems to contradict what noozer says above. Hmm...
March 15, 200619 yr There was talk about revitalizing the subway for transportation or some other use in every single decade since 1927. I find it interesting that two years after the light rail plan was voted down, the issue comes to light again--today, in March, 2006. "What to do with the subway" is a question that has been asked since 1930. And now they're asking it again. I would still like to see the turned into a tourist attraction. Certainly there's enough worldwide interest in it. But what a loss there would be if they filled in the tubes. Hope that doesn't happen. As to what Noozer said, the belief that LRT cars can't fit the tubes is an urban myth. In the 1940s a group of companies along Central Parkway wanted to lease the subway to run freight train cars inside for product storage. They later determined that freight train cars could not fit inside the tubes. The tubes were designed to accomodate subway cars based on those in use by New York City in the 1910s/1920s. allen
March 15, 200619 yr In my opinion the most cost-effective thing to do would be to use the subway as a downtown approach for an I-75 commuter line running on existing tracks or on new ones parallel to the line that runs south from Tri-County through Glendale. The commuter line would leave that existing route near the Ludlow Viaduct and run on the surface on the west side of Central Parkway and then enter the subway where it now exists with stations at Liberty, Race (Central Parkway), and then a tunnel down Walnut St. with stations at 5th/6th St. and a terminus on 3rd. Of course the trains would have to run electric in the tunnel meaning a combo diesel and electric locomotive would have to be used, or less desireably diesel and electric locomotives would switch off outside the tunnel, costing the trip a few minutes and increasing the chances of mechanical failures. I know this leaves a lot to be desired but with the I-75 reconstruction coming up this line could attract maybe 10,000 daily, even without rail connections to UC.
Create an account or sign in to comment