This is from one of the articles above.

 

As a demonstration project, the task force has proposed building up to 10 wind turbines in Lake Erie, generating power for up to 6,000 homes. GEO estimates that six, towering turbines -- each more than 30 stories tall -- could supply the same power given the strength of Lake Erie winds.

 

Hopefully its not the grand vision but more along the lines of what the previous article said which would be just a begining.

and even more exciting that the potential for what we can install here in NEO is what we can PRODUCE in NEO for export to the rest of the Lake Erie states (and beyond).

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

 

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

 

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

A friend of mine who lives along I-90 wants to put up a few smaller turbines by the freeway to power just his neighborhood.  If 10 big ones in the lake will power 6000 houses, then what would it take to power about 40?  Apparently they do make a range of sizes and he has quotes for what he wants, just needs the appropriate permission to get going.  Not even sure where to begin asking. 

They could use something like ultrasonic or some other type of technology to emit some sort of sound to keep the birds away.

How many birds have been killed by the one by Browns' stadium?

"He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds."

 

If we're talking ducks, geese, and other cute birds - then hopefully they can develop a deterrent of some sort.

 

However, if we're talking about those rats with wings (some people use the term "pigeons"), I say - crank it UP!!!!

Gulls are actually rather aggressive - like one of the bullies of the bird world - so I'm not sure how much people would be concerned with a few of them biting the dust.

 

And pigeons are so fat, I don't think they could fly 3-5 miles offshore :-D

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

 

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

 

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

 

From what I understand this isn't an issue with large wind turbines.  They would possibly effect some migratory patterns, but appropriate spacing may alleviate that.  Your friend in Utah may be referring to the 70s and 80s era small wind turbines that are in the deserts of Nevada, California and possibly Utah(?).  The science is very simple.  The smaller the blade the faster it needs to spin to create the torque necessary for power generation.  Large wind turbines spin relatively slowly and don't kill nearly as many birds as the smaller turbines, which have proven to be very effective bird murderers.

 

 

This guy sums it up quite nicely...  "Former CEO of Superior Renewable Energy John Calaway talks about the impact of offshore wind farms on migrating bird species during a luncheon on South Padre Island Sept. 6, 2006. (Ryan Henry / Island Breeze)"

Knowing that birds have the ability to fly thousands of miles south and back north every year without any formal training in geography or rudimentary navigational skills, I'm thinking these guys may have the cognizance to avoid what is instant death. Now, I grant that you'll see some losses probably in that first year of operation due to sheer surprise...hey, what the hell is th..WHAACK!! But I'm sure the rest of the flocks will learn from their unlucky comrades and adjust their migratory routes accordingly. I mean, how many birds fly into office towers?

 

I don't think this is nearly as serious as some may make it out to be. Build them.

Hello everyone!  I have been reading this forum forum for quite some time but never participated.  So here it goes...

 

A couple of months ago I was having a conversation with a friend who works for a Cleveland area engineering and surveying firm and has been doing a significant amount of work on setting up wind turbines in NW Pennsylvania.  I should preface this with the fact that he is not an engineer or scientist and has no involvement in this study of putting wind turbines in the lake, but does work very closely on these types of projects and is quite knowledgeable on what it takes to put one up.

 

While reading the PD article above I did think it was interesting the mention of the need to study birds, because several months ago my friend had told me that this could be a major issue reated to this project.  Specifically, I think it was because of the Canadian goose's migratory patterns.  I am not 100% on this, but isn't the Canadian goose a protected species?  If it is, then I would think anything that has the potential harm it could throw up some red flags by certain groups.  I understand that this is mostly hearsay, but after the line in the article and surfohio's comment I thought that it was worth mentioning.  I would hope that any problems with this could potentially be overcome as some have mentioned.  This entire project has such great potential of making this region better for the future and I hope it succeeds.

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

 

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

 

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

 

you'd think that there would be some sort of high pitched noise that they could emit from those towers that would cause birds to avoid them.

Re: Birds

 

I recently had a conversation with Dr. Art Huckelbridge from the Civil Engineering Department - he's with the group that's studying how the winter on the lake would effect the windmills.  He mentioned that birds are a major concern, but oddly enough as the blades get larger, the chance that birds will fly into them decrease. 

 

Thought it was interesting.

God I hate geese.  There are way to many of them, and they crap all over our parks.  I say set the windmills to "frappe" and lets make some foie gras.

I am not 100% on this, but isn't the Canadian goose a protected species?

 

You are correct, the Canada Goose is a protected species.

 

Canada geese are protected by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 and the Migratory Bird Conservation Act of 1929.  The former, the implementation of a 1916 convention signed by the United States and Canada, prohibits the hunting, possessing, purchasing and exporting of migratory birds "or any part, or egg of any such bird." Since neither law makes mention of wind turbines the protection of their species wouldn't be legally required under the current law in regard to this issue. (i.e. no instant red flag). Of course the environmental impact study would consider the effect on them and other species.

We continue to manufacture automobiles regardless of the fact that countless number of deer are killed each year.  I say lets build us wind turbines!

Thanks for that very informative post Grumpy!

 

I don't get the whole bird and geese argument against the construction of wind TURBINES (not windmills people!).  More birds are killed by cars every year then all the wind turbines in the US have ever killed... I would guess... but we don't cage our roads and highways to keep birds out!  Because these turbines might kill a couple birds a year we shouldn't build them?  That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  My bay window kills more birds every year then one of these wind turbines will.  I'm all for protecting our environment and the animals that inhabit it... but it seems like the environmental lobbyists won't let us do anything in regard to energy.  No wind turbines, solar, coal, nuclear, hydro, etc... the list goes on and on.

I'm sure/I hope that those involved with researching bird migration, etc. realize that it's nearly 2009 and that many case studies exist concerning risks of turbines in large bodies of water.  From bird migration to cargo ship paths, disrupting habitats in the sea/lake bed to noise issues, this has already been researched in some form or another.  While there may be some unique instances involving Lake Erie, I hope to God that most involved/concerned know that other parts of the world have embraced this technology and we don't need to reinvent some wheel to get this moving forward. 

 

There's 6 billion people on this planet...obviously the human race impacts other environments but this is an attempt to be as responsible/respectful as possible.

 

This new industry/technology excites me more than anything else going on in this city/region! 

... I hope to God that most involved/concerned know that other parts of the world have embraced this technology and we don't need to reinvent some wheel to get this moving forward. 

...

This new industry/technology excites me more than anything else going on in this city/region! 

That's the spirit!  If you want to get involved as an activist, I recommend www.greenenergyohio.org

I am not 100% on this, but isn't the Canadian goose a protected species? 

 

You are correct, the Canada Goose is a protected species.

 

Canada geese are protected by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 and the Migratory Bird Conservation Act of 1929.  The former, the implementation of a 1916 convention signed by the United States and Canada, prohibits the hunting, possessing, purchasing and exporting of migratory birds "or any part, or egg of any such bird." Since neither law makes mention of wind turbines the protection of their species wouldn't be legally required under the current law in regard to this issue. (i.e. no instant red flag). Of course the environmental impact study would consider the effect on them and other species.

 

Thanks for the clarification. 

 

I think the overall message should be that the positives of building these things should far out way the negatives of harming a couple of geese.  We should be respectful of our surrounding environment, but you can only do so much before you have to blame alittle bit on the stupidity of a goose not avoiding a moving blade. 

^Welcome to the forum :wave:

Interesting, hopefully the size of the blades will lessen the impact. And it's more than just geese and seagulls, Lake Erie is a major migratory route for many species. Anyhow I'm looking forward to learning more from the upcoming study. thanks for posting.

 

Don't be suprised if the impact study on birds turns out to be the big, significant hurdle.

 

I have a friend who researches this issue in Utah. He is pro wind, but said flat out that those blades kill birds.

 

Knowing ecactly how the turbines location will affect migratory birds is going to be a heated topic.

 

From what I understand this isn't an issue with large wind turbines.  They would possibly effect some migratory patterns, but appropriate spacing may alleviate that.  Your friend in Utah may be referring to the 70s and 80s era small wind turbines that are in the deserts of Nevada, California and possibly Utah(?).  The science is very simple.  The smaller the blade the faster it needs to spin to create the torque necessary for power generation.  Large wind turbines spin relatively slowly and don't kill nearly as many birds as the smaller turbines, which have proven to be very effective bird murderers.

 

 

This guy sums it up quite nicely...  "Former CEO of Superior Renewable Energy John Calaway talks about the impact of offshore wind farms on migrating bird species during a luncheon on South Padre Island Sept. 6, 2006. (Ryan Henry / Island Breeze)"

I'm not sure if this is the right forum....

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/12/click_here_to_view_the.html

 

Cleveland wants to be first to have offshore wind farm in Lake Erie

Posted by Tom Breckenridge/Plain Dealer Reporter December 08, 2008 08:41AM

Categories: Economic development, Energy

Local wind energy advocates feel they are in a race to plant the first turbine in Great Lakes water.

 

The achievement would mark the region as a clean-energy innovator, not a smokestack laggard, officials say.

 

 

.......

Cleveland wants to be first to have offshore wind farm in Lake Erie

Posted by Tom Breckenridge/Plain Dealer Reporter December 08, 2008 08:41AM

Categories: Economic development, Energy

 

......

^Can someone please tell the Plain Dealer that a windmill is used for grinding wheat into flour, and a wind turbine is used for power generation?

^Can someone please tell the Plain Dealer that a windmill is used for grinding wheat into flour, and a wind turbine is used for power generation?

 

{this is not meant as snark}  Ummm...whats wrong with your hands?  You can email and call the author of the article and copy EinC.

 

Be the change you want.

 

 

"The commissioners' top development officer said the county and state are in talks with a European wind turbine manufacturer that "expressed willingness" to pay for half of a $56 million turbine project - and establish a plant at the Cleveland port. "

 

http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/123218482631030.xml&coll=2

 

Cuyahoga County presses Obama for $46.3 million in stimulus money for wind turbine project

Saturday, January 17, 2009

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Cuyahoga County commissioners pressed President-elect Barack Obama on Friday for $46.3 million in federal stimulus money that could be key to landing a wind turbine project in Lake Erie.

 

The commissioners' top development officer said the county and state are in talks with a European wind turbine manufacturer that "expressed willingness" to pay for half of a $56 million turbine project - and establish a plant at the Cleveland port.

 

.....

Link to presentation from the December 10th, 2008 Building an Advanced Energy Future for Offshore Wind Conference hosted by Case Western's Great Lakes Institute for Energy Innovation

 

It is some pretty interesting stuff. Cleveland does have the potential to have a sizable  wind energy industry.

 

http://www.case.edu/energy/events.htm#offshore_wind

I still cannot find information on how to route power cables on the lake bed. 

Boreal,

Do you mean route as in where they locate them in this plan?  or route on how they are laid down? I believe that the installation of underwater Cables involves a trench and cover methodology for each phase for AC power and a single trench for DC power.

The latter, thanks.  I recall that ice can actually be blown along the lake and score the lake bed.  Ice had damaged telephone cables that were laid under Lake Erie decades ago. 

 

My observation is that coastal windpower is the best resource because it can be located near the point of use and not require many hundreds of miles of high voltage wiring and towers.  By coastal, I mean sea coasts and the Great Lakes.

Lorain's first turbine ready for installation.

 

Sunday, January 18, 2009

Wind Power Now a Reality In Lorain

Green Company at 7400 Industrial Pkwy Is The First To Use Wind Power

 

 

More photos, info at: http://www.dennisflores.org

 

 

 

 

hey it's up -- awesome!  :clap:

 

 

so this is located on the eastside, near the sheffield border/where the dump was right?

^Far west side off Baumhart, south of the Ford plant.

 

http://tinyurl.com/d34zcz

 

Perkins High School turbine falls apart

By DON LEE | Monday, February 9, 2009 4:54 PM EST

 

PERKINS TWP.

 

 

Register photo/BRITTANY BOTT A wind turbine, right, at Perkins High School fell apart Saturday.

 

Copyrighted image removed

 

Ed Sharp was standing on the back porch Saturday afternoon when he heard a sound like a shotgun.

 

He looked next door, where the three wind turbines at Perkins High School were spinning in Saturday's high winds, to see part of a turbine blade fly off and land in the student parking lot...

 

Post edited 9-4-09 to comply with terms of use

http://sanduskyregister.com/articles/2009/02/09/front/1142179.txt

 

 

Cool article on some more studies that seem to progressing the possibility of the wind turbines on Lake Erie.

 

Great Lakes Energy Development Task Force tracks Lake Erie ice movements

Posted by Tom Breckenridge/Plain Dealer Reporter February 12, 2009 17:40PM

Categories: Economic development, Real Time

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2009/02/post_30.html

<a href=http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20090501/FREE/905019949>Wind power initiative on Lake Erie passes feasibility test</a>

By CHUCK SODER

2:37 pm, May 1, 2009

 

No red flags that could stop the efforts of the Great Lakes Energy Development Task Force to build a handful of wind turbines in Lake Erie appeared in a feasibility study the task force released today, though major obstacles remain.

 

Chief among them are paying for the project, which should cost between $77 million and $93 million unless its scale is reduced, and winning OKs from the host of organizations that must approve the work.

 

......

Ohio trying to put itself at forefront of wind-energy movement

 

by John Funk/Plain Dealer Reporter

Wednesday May 06, 2009, 7:06 PM

 

CHICAGO -- The price of putting Ohio at the forefront of the exploding wind-energy industry is thousands of dollars and a lot of persuasion.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/05/ohio_trying_to_put_itself_at_f.html

 

...whats good everybody? first post in here  :clap:

 

 

welcome. :wave:

 

just a note, when posting, it's important to cite your source.

^^corrected

Thanks, hubz. And welcome. :)

Welcome to the board, and thanks for posting that article, hubz. Wind power is definitely an exciting possibility for our state.  Good to see the State gov't getting involved in a big way.

Sorry for being lazy and not reading extensively all 10 pages but, is there going to be any more windmills in downtown besides the only one by the GLSC?

^First of all they are wind TURBINES, not windmills.  Windmills mill things such as corn into flour.  Wind turbines drive turbines to produce electricity.

 

CSU has a couple projects that involve wind turbines.  One of them is being installed on the roof of the maintenance building.  It looks like a water tower with 4 turbines sticking of the side (one in each quadrant).  I also think there was some talk a while back about installing some vertical turbines at the Wolstein Center, but I'm not sure that it is actively being persued at this time.

 

I'm sure you've also heard about the off shore wind farm project.  It just passed a feasibility test and it looks like the plan is to construct 3 to 10 turbines about 3 miles off the shore east of the water crib.  This is the one that the city really needs IMO.  Cleveland could become the center of fresh water off shore wind research and manufacturing.

^^Well to aid your laziness, no there probably won't be many more turbines in downtown.

 

Most of the wind power ideas under consideration are offshore, and anything else would probably end up on cheaper real estate than downtown. I know the wind really likes to swirl between the buildings downtown, but an area built up like downtown is generally a poor location for wind turbines for several reasons:

 

First, wind turbines aren't especially attractive to look at. I kind of like the way they look, but I'm probably the exception. Either way, they don't really mesh well with the architecture in downtown. Keep in mind, the turbine at the GLSC is comparatively small, and any being used for serious power production would be significantly larger.

 

Second, in general the real estate inn downtown is too expensive to be used for wind turbines. If you factor in the cost of buying the real estate to stick the turbine on, it would make the start up costs so high that the turbine would never be anywhere near profitable without some ridiculous incentives. It's my understanding that the GLSC put up their turbine knowing this but did it as a demonstration project to show the potential of wind turbines.

 

Third, the bird factor. For the most part, the idea of birds getting hit by the blades of turbines has been completely overblown, (Most birds are stupid, but not that stupid), but the public would still be opposed because they'd be afraid that the rats with wings would get sliced and diced onto the sidewalks of downtown.

 

Fourth, because the land under the turbines would be basically unusable, it's pretty poor land usage to put up wind turbines in a built up area. Again keep in mind that the GLSC turbine is relatively small, and that turbines for serious power production would take up much more space.

 

Fifth, the wind patterns in a downtown area are too unpredictable to use for sustained wind generation. For example, the bus stop at E. 9th and St Clair (Where I catch my bus most afternoons) is just crazy windy if the wind is coming from the NW because of the way the wind swirls around, but if the wind is coming from any other direction, its perfectly calm there. The same thing applies to virtually everywhere in downtown because the wind patterns are completely unpredictable as a result of all the swirling around over and around the buildings. The most stable, predictable, and sustained winds in the area are generally at least 100 feet above the surface of the lake, which is why there's so much talk of offshore wind power. 

 

Oh, and by the way, a windmill is used to grind grain into flour. A wind turbine is used to turn a generator and provide electricity.

First, wind turbines aren't especially attractive to look at. I kind of like the way they look, but I'm probably the exception.

 

I actually like the way they look quite a bit. I think they're beautiful, in their own way.

I can't see the link.  Could someone post the article?

 

http://www.wksu.org/news/story/23389

 

Well here's one from Crain's I can see:

 

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20090515/FREE/905159973

 

Cleveland auto parts firm to put wind power to use

 

By JAY MILLER

 

8:47 am, May 15, 2009

 

Though a Cuyahoga County task force has been grabbing headlines for its long-range, multimillion-dollar plan to put wind turbines on Lake Erie, a West Side auto parts firm decided to makes its own small advancement in wind energy generation.

 

Pearl Road Auto Parts and Wrecking has broken ground for a $295,000, 140-foot tall wind turbine on company property at 5000 Pearl Road. The turbine is expected to provide nearly 100% of the companys power needs.

 

The company claims to be the first business in Cleveland to use wind power. A demonstration turbine sits on the grounds of the Great Lakes Science Center along Lake Erie.

 

......

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/04/if_wind_farms_come_to_clevelan.html

 

 

Cleveland proposes ordinance to regulate aesthetics and safety of wind turbines

Posted by Steven Litt / Plain Dealer Architecture Critic April 15, 2009 12:44PM

Categories: Architecture, Art, Arts Impact, City Planning, Steven Litt

 

David Duprey/Associated Press A wind farm in Lackawanna, N.Y., was built recently by First Wind, a green energy company that has stirred controversy in western New York State.

 

There's a lot to love about wind energy. It's clean and green, and, depending on how they're designed, wind farms can be aesthetically pleasing.

 

But what happens when a new industry -- no matter how beneficial-- enters a major American city with new structures that have the potential to change the look and feel of the entire community for better or worse?

 

.......

So we get the ability to have wind, but nobody is likely to use it due to nimby ordinaces. It would also appear the only feasable way to actually get one in your yard would be to buy and raze your neighbors house. Why regulate how close it is to the neighbors yard, when we dont regulate how close trees could be? They seem to fall down more regularly, as to opposed to a properly anchored turbine.