Ok...so now we're detaching the US from Ohio in terms of making a commitment to installing wind power.  I'm ok with that.

 

We can make parts with the best of 'em, but it's difficult, and not profitable in the majority of the state to actually install turbines.  I think everyone should be able to agree with that.

 

Just to remember where we came from here...Boreal called people incompetant for not throwing up turbines willy-nilly. That's what I took issue with.

Thats not how I read it.

Your words were "Wind is firmly out of the money in most of Ohio, and might just barely be marginal in the Northwest."  I do think you said that wind was out of the money (albeit in most of the state).  How is that a misquote?

 

Maybe not a misquote, but definitely out of context.

 

I wrote...

Wind is firmly out of the money in most of Ohio, and might just barely be marginal in the Northwest.

 

You turned it into...

Wind is most certainly not "out of the money" in Ohio.

 

You agreed with me...but took it out of context so you could disagree with me.  ;)

Thats not how I read it.

 

Really?  It's a good report, but it's all about the manufacturing and construction of turbines and parts, not installation.  It doesn't say anything about it being profitable for Ohio to cover the state with wind turbines, just that we do a good job manufacturing bearings and gearboxes.  How did you read it?

Boreal's posting.

I never agreed with your point.  In fact, wind is "in the money," meaning there's an economic gain to be had here.  You said the contrary ("firmly out of the money").  Moving on...

 

Here is additional support showing wind speeds across the state and over Lake Erie. 

(1) http://www.ohiowind.org/ResourceLibrary/maps/Ohio_wind_map_windpower4_1_2_100m1.pdf

 

(2) http://www.wcpn.org/news/2006/10-12/images/windPower/windPowerGraph.pdf

 

(3)  Check out this report:  http://www.ohiowind.org/ResourceLibrary/pdfs/WindReportfinal.pdf.  It discusses the viability of wind power creation in Ohio.

 

Just out of curiosity, what is the basis for your advocacy against wind power in Ohio?  Too expensive?  Not scientifically practicable?  Are you talking about on a commercial scale or as an offset to individual/institutional use of other sources?  You seem quick to say "not going to work" without giving a reason why.  The point of all of this debate is that there is no reason to be a laggard in this emerging field, especially behind a neighboring state like Pennsylvania.

I've found that most people who "advocate" against wind/solar power tend to have a financial interest in what the wind/solar power would be replacing*. A former colleague who was interested in Cleveland's sustainability director position was told "well, we can't be too efficient because that would take away revenue from Cleveland Public Power." I sh!t you not.

 

*So Brewmaster - is that the case?

Read my posts above.  I never advocated against wind power.  I'm a HUGE fan of renewables.  I thought it was disingenuious of Boreal to call people incompetant for not building wind turbines like crazy in Ohio.  Look at the wind maps, and look where people are building wind farms.  That should give you a really good idea of where wind is "in the money" as I called it.

 

The whole tone of that post reminded me of those who blame Big Oil for our "pain at the pump".  They've got a stake in it, sure.  But to participate in name calling and price gouging witch hunts every time gasoline breaks $3/gallon isn't productive or practical. 

 

Lets be realistic and talk about solutions, not participate in name calling.

Name-calling? I simply asked if you were affiliated with one of the power companies.

Not you Mayday...Boreal.  I think his/her passion is great...it just always ends up in unproductive name calling.  For the record...I shouldn't have called Boreal's statement ignorant either. 

 

I'm speaking for myself.  :-D

All this talk about solar and wind power.  What about Clevelands greatest source of power, wave?  That would seem to me to be the most consistent and beneficial for Great Lakes Science Center to get involved with.  There's a company called Ocean Power Technologies that makes buoys to capture energy.  Here's a link

 

http://www.oceanpowertechnologies.com/index.htm

cleveland.com:

 

German company to conduct $800k wind power study

Posted by Tom Breckenridge August 23, 2007 15:23PM

Categories: Breaking News

 

Cuyahoga County commissioners say a German company with lots of experience in wind-energy development is the best candidate to do a year-long feasibility study of erecting wind turbines on Lake Erie and building an affiliated wind-research center.

 

Commissioners selected a team led by Juwi International from among three proposals to do the $800,000 study.

 

 

 

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/08/german_company_to_conduct_800k.html

I actually just heard Mark Shanahan (the guv's energy advisor) give a speech yesterday.  He mentioned that himself, Lee Fisher (lt. guv), and Strickland have been talking with 4 wind turbine manufacturers and parts suppliers to set up shop here in the state.

 

He also said that a popular response from manufacturers has been, something like...why the heck should we set up shop in Ohio if you don't even have a renewable portfolio standard?  There might be some truth to that, but I just took that to mean, "hey ohioans...we're gonna propose a renewable portfolio standard...so come to grips with that sooner rather than later."  That's just my read.

 

I would think that manufacturers would be more interested in tax breaks than to strongarm a state into an RPS, but who knows.  Ohio is also well situated for shipping large equipment across the country, so I think we can make a strong sales pitch even if we don't install many turbines within the state's boundaries.

re: Strickland's Energy portfolio

 

With one of the dirties energy portfolios in the nation, Ohio is a good candidate for serious investment in renewable energy.

Background

 

With no solar energy programs to speak of, we are starting from scratch here.

 

Here's the play: by Sept 1, 2007, Governor Strickland is expected to release what his office is calling an 'Advanced Energy Portfolio Standard'. What's in the standard will be anyone's guess--but the so-called 'clean coal' and municipal solid waste incinerators are working double-time to make their technologies the beneficiaries.

 

We think a better plan would be to invest in solar. Specifically, a 1% carve-out in a renewable portfolio standard would result in 1,800 MW of clean, renewable solar in the state, and up to 60,000 job-years. Here's a factsheet with more (pdf).

 

To make this solar plan happen, the Governor needs to hear that it has support. Take action here.

 

We'll put up more on the plan as it comes available.

 

 

http://www.votesolar.org/state-initiatives/ohio.html

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/08/24/windmills.html

Wind turbines on Lake Erie? Company hired to conduct energy study

Friday, August 24, 2007 4:33 AM

 

Associated Press

CLEVELANDCuyahoga County Commissioners tapped a German company to conduct a $1 million study to determine if winds blowing across Lake Erie can support wind turbines and if the project could overcome financial, environmental and engineering hurdles.

 

The yearlong feasibility study led by Juwi International will explore building up to 10 wind turbines about three miles off the coast of Cleveland and a wind-energy research center nearby, to be run by Case Western Reserve University.

 

 

 

i think this is the full article to that

 

 

Commissioners approve yearlong Lake Erie wind turbine study

Project would sit three miles offshore

Friday, August 24, 2007

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

 

 

......

Lawmaker Proposes Lake Erie 'Wind Farm'

 

Last Edited: Wednesday, 12 Sep 2007, 8:53 PM EDT

Created: Wednesday, 12 Sep 2007, 6:07 PM EDT

 

Wind Farm Legislation Proposal

 

A Lakewood lawmaker hopes to see hundreds of electric power producing windmills in Lake Erie, creating the first wind farm in a fresh water location in the world.

 

"Ohio can be a leader in the emerging industry of advanced energy," said State Representative Mike Skindell, D-13th District.

 

"Advanced energy will not bloom on it's own," said Richard Stuebi, the BP Representative for Energy and Environmental Advancement at the Cleveland Foundation.

 

 

......

 

http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=4338591&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

Here is an interesting idea to improve upon a Lake Erie windfarm. 

 

Basically, one problem with wind energy is that it isn't always blowing when you need power.  A firm in the Netherlands has come up with a way to store some energy for when you need it.  Build a dike in a windy area with an encircled area inside -- a pond in the middle of the lake.  When you have excess power, pump water out of the pond.  When you have not enough wind, let water back into the pond through hydro-electric generators (like you would find in a dam).

 

Check out the full story and drawings:

 

http://lievense.magproductions.nl/ariadne/loader.php/-xnVr-/sites/lievense/news/00003/?nls=en

 

^that's a totally interesting idea, I wonder how they would deal with freshwater and the freezing issue

When is this project going to start or is this just another one of those projects that never start

Here is an interesting idea to improve upon a Lake Erie windfarm. 

 

Basically, one problem with wind energy is that it isn't always blowing when you need power.  A firm in the Netherlands has come up with a way to store some energy for when you need it.  Build a dike in a windy area with an encircled area inside -- a pond in the middle of the lake.  When you have excess power, pump water out of the pond.  When you have not enough wind, let water back into the pond through hydro-electric generators (like you would find in a dam).

 

Check out the full story and drawings:

 

http://lievense.magproductions.nl/ariadne/loader.php/-xnVr-/sites/lievense/news/00003/?nls=en

 

 

There are similar ideas with air compressors and underground salt domes.  Use the wind turbine or solar panel to power an air compressor when the energy is available, and then discharge the compressed air through a turbine/generator when you need the electricity.  Hydrogen production from electrolysis is another example of energy storage, although I think its much less efficient than pumped/compressed storage.  You also end up with the hydrogen transportation/delivery system headaches.  It's much easier to do it with electrons and wires.

 

The problem with these is that they 1) introduce efficiency penalties into the system, and 2) introduce pumps/compressors which cost more $$$.  So you end up with a higher cost, but at least you aren't hostage to the weather.

 

I think lawmakers getting involved with a project as controversial as this offshore wind farm is a great step in the right direction.  Somebody needs to moderate things when the BP's of the world come in and get sued up the wazoo.  I'm no expert on the process, but it seems like these appeals (see: Nantucket) can paralyze a good project.

The obvious application for wind-generated electricity is to sell the power to the waterworks who pump municipal water up to the standpipes in all of our communities.  Those users can make use of a time-variant energy source quite well.  In the Heights area, most of the communities are at 1000 foot or higher altitude which puts it at 430 feet above the lake.  It takes a lot of energy (work) to move all that water uphill to the standpipes. 

 

All of this further makes it apparent that we should conserve water as consumers, farmers and businesses.  It not only saves "water" , but it saves the electricity used to power the system.  Conservation is king!

Crain's:

 

Governor: Don't blow wind power opportunity

By DAVID BENNETT

 

4:29 pm, October 24, 2007

 

........

 

I agree, Strickland. Way to wake up.

has anyone seen a number released by the GLSC on how many KWH have been produced to date by the turbine? 

 

also, why isn't this think lit up at night?  i would have thought some energy efficient lighting would have been part of the art installation.  just a couple of orange, red or blue lights shining upward onto the mast would have a nice effect, imo.

^ "also, why isn't this think lit up at night?  i would have thought some energy efficient lighting would have been part of the art installation.  just a couple of orange, red or blue lights shining upward onto the mast would have a nice effect, imo."

 

i agree.  i wondered this for a long time and initially heard that the reason was the FAA due to the proximity to Burke.  However, look at all the lights at the stadium next store, which are actually placed higher than the tips of the turbine.  as i've learned the primary reason for no cool nighttime swirl effects is that lights attract bugs and bugs attract birds & bats which the  big blades would then destroy.  i wonder if there is a light spectrum which does not attract animals but is visible to the human eye?

Umm umm does it make sense to generate clean electricity and then just use it up with decorative lighting?

Instead of floodlighting it they could put small colored lights on the ends of the blades pointing back over the blade.  That would use less electricity, create less light polution, and create a unique landmark.

By the way, bats are blind. They "see" using sonar. So light wouldn't matter.

 

Just a friendly jab from your neighborhood Mr Know It All. :)

^ That's a really cool idea, X.

As someone with severe chiroptophobia, I'm all for leaving the blades dark - I say if the little rats with wings are that stupid, they deserve to be sliced and diced!  :x

Since bats use sonar to navigate, we need to use stealth technology.

For some reason I get more excited about a new post in this thread over all others, but then I see a post like this and...  It makes we want to get :drunk:  Darnit!!  :whip:

 

Since bats use sonar to navigate, we need to use stealth technology.

:roll:

By the way, bats are blind. They "see" using sonar. So light wouldn't matter.

 

Just a friendly jab from your neighborhood Mr Know It All. :)

 

Lights would attract more insects and thus more bats which like to eat said insects.

That settles it for me! No Lights! :-)

who gives a crap about lights, how about actually building the turbines!!! I'll bet a million $ this project never starts. i hate these stupid enviromentalist who are worried about bats and birds who gives a crap why dont they clean up the lake first and stop worrying about stupid things. sorry i was blowing off some steam

Everyone needs to blow off steam but rather than betting a million dollars you don't have that it won't start, how about betting it that it WILL?

 

The money only exists in your head.  Does it really do you any good to be so negative when making imaginary investments?

Yeah. Sheesh. Go get some faith, man. :) Maybe it actually WILL happen.

Yeah. Sheesh. Go get some faith, man. :) Maybe it actually WILL happen.

 

  GO Indians.Maybe next year

Study finds strong winds off Lake Erie for turbine project

 

Friday, January 11, 2008

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Lake Erie winds are the strong est recorded anywhere in Ohio, good news for city leaders exploring whether Cleveland could be an interna tional hub for offshore wind power.

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

 

[email protected], 216-999-4695

Cuyahoga gets $2.5 million toward wind turbines

 

Posted by Tom Breckenridge April 14, 2008 12:53PM

Categories: Economic development, Energy

 

Cuyahoga County has been awarded $2.5 million in renewable-energy bonds to help finance a proposal to build off-shore wind turbines.

 

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/reworld/story?id=52697

 

July 31, 2008

 

Great wind on the Great Lakes

by Harvey Wasserman

 

The Great Lakes of North America offer some of the world's best wind resources, which are only now beginning to be exploited. Harvey Wasserman reports on a number of developments that potentially mark the beginning of a new Klondike.

 

Spinning cheaply and cleanly in brisk Great Lakes breezes, Clevelands 225 kW Vestas machine is the first utility-scale wind turbine to generate electricity in the heart of an American city. Across two Great Lakes, in Toronto, a much larger machine claims the same title in Canada.

 

 

........

 

might this be added to the Cleveland - Wind Power Developments thread?

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1615.0.html

Sry I tried looking before I posted but I looked in the wrong section, didn't think it would be under projects and construction :(

The homepage of CWRU appears to have an image of Wind Turbines along Lake Erie.  There's a ton of traffic through the site, obviously, so it's interesting to see the message/"renderings" being subliminally portrayed:

 

http://www.cwru.edu/

That will surely be something to see from Voinovich Park when complete

I think that every study under the sun states that this would be a great idea for the lake.  There is enough wind, we have the industrial and manufacturing base to produce the parts, and it would be great for the economy.  What the hell is the hold up?  My understanding is that they are doing another study, does anybody know why this hasn't moved forward, or if there are plans in the work to build something not just study it?

I think that every study under the sun states that this would be a great idea for the lake.  There is enough wind, we have the industrial and manufacturing base to produce the parts, and it would be great for the economy.  What the hell is the hold up?  My understanding is that they are doing another study, does anybody know why this hasn't moved forward, or if there are plans in the work to build something not just study it?

 

I can't speak for this specific project, but I don't understand why folks seem to think that things should happen yesterday.  That's not a dig at you as you probably understand this.

 

How I understand it this is an emerging industry for NEO so the infrastructure (capital, scientist/researchers, locations, the physical plant(s), etc.) needs to be put in place before any actual projects are announced.

First studies encouraging on Lake Erie wind turbines

Posted by Tom Breckenridge/Plain Dealer Reporter September 30, 2008 18:21PM

Categories: Breaking News, Economic development, Energy

Lake Erie's wind, geology and habitat can accommodate towering wind turbines, new studies from a local energy task force say.

 

Cuyahoga County officials this week rolled out the first three reports from their $1 million study of a grand vision -- erecting two to 10 wind turbines in the lake off Cleveland's shore.

 

The studies "show no deal breakers yet," said Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason, chairman of the Great Lakes Energy Development Task Force.

 

..........

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/09/first_studies_encouraging_on_l.html

 

grand vision -- erecting two to 10 wind turbines in the lake off Cleveland's shore.

 

That's all?  I was imagining something much "grander".  Don't get me wrong, something is better than nothing, but if we are going to be a leader in this industry, we are going to need more than 10 turbines.  Phase I being 10 seems about right, but the "grand vision"??