where exactly along the way was the point where anyone thought this would actually be built? it was a shame from day one and the locals got yokeled. thankfully the county is only half a mil down over it --- could have been much worse.

well crazier things have happened around the area.  I mean who ever thought sandusky's cedar point would become as large and world-known as it has in that seemingly remote area.

 

I'm neither really for or against this proj. at this point.  If it doesn't happen ah well.. I don't live in lorain co. anymore anyway.  But if it does.. (shrugs) what's the big deal?  Perhaps it is a big "pie in the sky" idea, but I can't see being fiercely against it, esp. for those who don't even live in the county anymore.  Never hurts to dream a little if you ask me?

well i dk about that analogy, cedar point has always been 'real' and always been rather famous, but this wiggy project was an obvious sham from the get-go.

 

still, i'm sure some sprawl housing tracts and a golf course will go in around there at some point. maybe someone will even find another innovative use for the quarries if we are lucky.

Cedar Point is different than this project for a couple reasons. Its a draw nationally for rollercoaster enthusiasts, but its supported by people of all income-levels in its region more than anything else (Cleveland, Toledo, Detroit, Chicago, Columbus, etc.).  Cedar Point fits better as a summer lakefront destination in its setting with the Lake Erie Islands nearby, and summer home communities like Port Clinton, Marblehead, Cawtawba, etc. Cedar Point's success is more understandable.

 

The quarries project had aims to attract extremely wealthy from all over the world to its South Amherst Quarries development for golfing and year-round beaches. Though the real estate investors said the landscape of the site itself was phenomenal for such a development, I think everyone in the region who actually knows the region never bought into it.

This oughta be titled: "County officials still delusional"

 

Quarry talks start anew, as inquiries flood county

ALEX M. PARKER, Morning Journal Writer

07/27/2007

 

Post edited 9-4-09 to comply with terms of use

New firm takes up quarry plan

Brad Dicken | The Chronicle-Telegram

L.A. company to buy property, says it will scale back S. Amherst project

 

Post edited 9-4-09 to comply with terms of use

Tax value high at quarries

ALEX M. PARKER, Morning Journal Writer

09/29/2007

Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendly

ELYRIA -- Although he's still optimistic about the project, IRG President Stuart Lichter said the county's refusal to lower the tax value of the Amherst stone quarries property could have an effect on the planned deal to purchase the land from American Stone Corp.

 

 

''Certainly, it's a big factor,'' said Lichter, speaking from the Industrial Realty Group's headquarters in California. ''One of the things you look at when you buy a property is what the taxes are. Obviously, this is a change in what we looked at by a very substantial amount.''

 

 

 

 

©The Morning Journal 2007

 

Design intent for home with quarry frontage.

 

Clubhouse perspective

 

Marina district site plan

 

Design intent for home with quarry frontage.

 

Clubhouse design intent

 

Design intent for home with quarry frontage.

 

 

Industrial Realty plans housing, lodge, marina at former Lorain County quarries

Lorain County project would include housing, recreation, lodge Wednesday, December 19, 2007Molly KavanaughPlain Dealer Reporter

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1198057185320050.xml&coll=2&thispage=2

 

Elyria -- California developer Stuart Lichter took one look at the breathtaking views of the quarries, untouched for years, with some standing as high as 100 feet, and he was smitten.

 

"It was totally love at first sight," said a smiling Lichter, president of Industrial Realty Group.

 

His company is embarking on a $500 million residential and recreational development of a 900-acre wooded site in South Amherst and Amherst and Brownhelm townships.

 

 

 

 

i like this plan. a housing tract is so much more realistic than what those brit shysters proposed with their crazy pie in the sky plans. this one reuses the old quarry and it looks very attractive. best of all i think this one is actually gonna happen because irg is a for real company and not a front for scheming shady euros.

This project definately sounds more realistic and doable, but I'm still not too happy about it. I forsee a lot of wealthy people from western Cuyahoga who might want to retire there. Its just more sprawl.

i know, sprawl is sprawl, but what are ya gonna do? at least it reuses an old unused industrial site and this developer is not jerking around the locals.

 

also, if you are gonna sprawl it those homes look a heck of a lot better than anything in, say avon. very chic. it's certainly a much more dramatic and potentially attractive setting too. we'll see how it all turns out in reality.

 

Quarry plan expected to spur other projects

Brad Dicken | The Chronicle-Telegram

 

SOUTH AMHERST — Development tends to follow sewers, and with the county planning to build a $26 million sewer to support a $500 million upscale development, more construction is likely to follow.

 

South Amherst Mayor Ron Schmitz said he fully expects more development now that California-based Industrial Realty Group has announced a plan to build 1,150 homes — with prices up to $1.3 million — on nearly 1,000 acres of abandoned quarry land in his village and Amherst and Brownhelm townships.

 

That development could be a good thing, he said — if it’s done right.

 

 

Quarry home project started

by JOHN LASKO

 

News-Times reporter

 

Ever since Industrial Realty Group's chief executive officer Stuart Lichter announced they purchased the nearly 917-acre Cleveland Quarries site in December for $22 million, construction crews have been hard at work clearing all kinds of debris at the site.

 

So far crews have demolished five of the six industrial mills and one residential property along Quarry Road to make way for The Quarries at Beaver Creek, which is scheduled to be completed sometime next fall.

 

 

frank lloyd wright style homes? The heezy does that mean?

When they're done there will be no quarry and they will have ruined Beaver Creek, so of course it should be called The Quarries at Beaver Creek.

 

And what young couple wouldn't want to commute from South Amherst to downtown Cleveland every day?

frank lloyd wright style homes? The heezy does that mean?

 

Here's the design proposal:

http://amhersttownship.us/pdf/2007_12_10_book_07089.pdf

 

The architecture looks like a real mess - there are rustic Western lodges, "Frank Lloyd Wright" prairie homes, Dutch gambrel barns, and what the hell, let's throw in some post-modern three story urban townhomes with rooftop decks in the middle of BFE...

 

WTF?  It looks like random pages from the ka architecture stock catalog....

 

I'm especially fond of page 5 with all the pictures of activities - on the bottom left there's an image of a woman aiming a rifle, right at the children on a nature trail in the next image to the left!

.

^What are these gates protecting?  Isn't it obvious?  They're protecting the "American dream" from diversity, filthy poor people, the scary city, and those awful black folks that ruin all the good neighborhoods!  Moving 38 miles away isn't far enough; now we have to build a gate just make certain we're safe!  :weird:

 

It makes me sick to see such stupid people. 

Agreed

They're protecting the "American dream" from diversity, filthy poor people, the scary city, and those awful black folks that ruin all the good neighborhoods!  Moving 38 miles away isn't far enough; now we have to build a gate just make certain we're safe!

 

That's what the gates represent for those people, but I find it ironic that they don't even close.  So the fools are being fooled more than they even know by these marketing gimmicks.

^The fact that the gates don't even close is almost comical.  You do have to wonder though whether the people are actually being fooled by this nonsense or if they are simply in love with the fantasy of the suburbs and pretend to believe it.  Either way, as foolish as it may seem to many people on this forum, there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to live in a development like this and commute to work in downtown every day. 

This project will probably be very successful to a very specific audience. I doubt that anyone from the central Cleveland metro area will move that far away. This will be good with retiree's who have bottomless checkbooks (e.g. Avon Lake lakefront livers, Sandusky, Vermillion, Huron boathouse people, Florida residents in the summer, etc.)

 

I do like the FLW inspired houses. I am a fan of Wrightian architecture when built with quality, no matter where it's built. the FLW house in Oberlin is very close and no matter how amazing these are, none will surpass that house in quality. But it's great to see that the green grass boxed colonial won't be amassing this project, which is what most of Lorain County consists of.

 

I really don't see a problem with this project since it may be attracting people from all over the country/region which is what NEO needs - whether it's city center or 30 miles out. The location is way out there and is not the same as exurban sprawl. To me, sprawl is Solon, Avon, and Medina. This is quite a hike from downtown Cleveland and is very close to a niche of nice little places (e.g. Oberlin and Wellington). I'm more concerned with Avon/Avon Lake clearing 500 acres for their new stadium and housing. Or Macedonia trying to build a soccer stadium. Also very bothered by the Strongsville development at I-71 and RT82. Those are things that don't need to be in the suburbs because they present no unique opportunities. However, there are no quarries in Cleveland. There are no quarries of this nature anywhere in the country.

^ very true. atthis point the focus should be more on the unique redevelopment of the old quarries than of gates and style and all that. at least something positive is coming out of what was initially a big scam.

 

kind of funny to hear people say how it's so way out there, too. 38 miles or whatever may be way out in cleveland terms, but nationally speaking that is hardly all that far flung. in other words outsiders may not think so. i doubt it'll be too much of a commuter community anyway, everything about it seems more suited to retirees. 

 

i can't wait to see it, sounds like it's going up pretty fast. hey if nothing else in the end at least the lodge views over the quarry will be interesting to check out.

 

atthis point the focus should be more on the unique redevelopment of the old quarries than of gates and style and all that

 

I agree that the quarry redevelopment could be interesting, I'm just afraid they're turning it into something that won't be as interesting as "intended" based on who they seem to be targeting a lot of their renderings and wording at.

 

38 miles or whatever may be way out in cleveland terms, but nationally speaking that is hardly all that far flung

 

I completely disagree here. The article said they were getting some young couple that work downtown looking to buy there, but I would bet most people in this country would look at 38 miles form the city as a long distance. In Cleveland traffic, it may not be considered a time wise long commute, but it sure is a long distance, especially as gas prices rise. For comparison, I made a 38-mile ring around two of the most sprawly cities in the US, Atlanta and Houston, and I can tell you with complete confidence (I have "super suburbanite" relatives in both cities) that even the biggest suburbanites in those cities still consider 38 miles from downtown to be really "out there", especially when it's not on the way to another decent sized city.

atthis point the focus should be more on the unique redevelopment of the old quarries than of gates and style and all that

I agree that the quarry redevelopment could be interesting, I'm just afraid they're turning it into something that won't be as interesting as "intended" based on who they seem to be targeting a lot of their renderings and wording at.

 

 

oh no, i never said that the stuff like the gates were interesting in any way (although some of the homes look like they will be). i just said that the long vacant quarries being redeveloped at all, especially after the euroscam collapsed, was much more important than any issues of style. disappointing looking or not, i really don't much care, but at least the vacant site will be put to use again and the county will not have wasted it's money in sewer improvements. maybe i wasn't so clear, but that is what i meant.

 

as to the distance issue, i still disagree. everything around the edge of your ring is considered within the metro area of atlanta. even the cities around the edge of it are considered major suburbs of atlanta (not by me, by the atlanteans):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_metropolitan_area

ditto places like galveston to houston. tons of people commute from those areas into other burbs and into the major city. i agree its too far, but lots of people don't, especially in large cities like these. wv to dc is another famous example. heck even in ohio and right here on uo some people people have the fantasy that the sw ohio cin-day region is a metroplex, based partly on commuting, and thats like 50 miles apart. of course, with gas prices rising soon all this workday long distance driving is coming in for a crash landing.

 

Does it matter?  We aren't discussing Atlanta, Houston, or New York.  What is considered a normal commuter distance or way out in those markets is irrelevent.  We are discussing a development in Greater Cleveland, which has a different geography and a different set of commuting expectations.

yes. it matters to buyers. a little general discussion about commuting from a proposed new residential development is perfectly relevent. that would include some comparisons for balance, both local and otherwise.

yes. it matters to buyers. a little general discussion about commuting from a proposed new residential development is perfectly relevent. that would include some comparisons for balance, both local and otherwise.

 

so we are comparing two 5+ Million MSAs to one less than half that size? I don't see the jones buying a place in the Quarries saying, "well if my cousin in alpharetta can handle the 43 mile commute, then I sure as heck can!" (disclaimer, I have no idea where alpharatta is on a map)

msa doesnt matter much as commuting is all about a balance between time and distance. its not one or the other, its both. if you can go 10 more miles in the cleveland region vs somewhere larger in the same amount of time i'd think that is important to the jones family buyers, but we haven't gotten into that yet.

 

 

"Jones family buyers" aren't comparing their commute in Cleveland to the commutes of people in other places when they buy their home.  They are comparing the commute from Amherst with the commute from Westlake or Rocky River.  That is the market competition.  Not a suburb of Houston.  Not the Poconos or the Inland Empire.  It's the Cleveland housing market that this project has to compete in.

if only buyers were all a lock for greater cleveland like that! unfortunately no. besides time and distance, potential buyers are also comparing the commute in the region or regions they are familiar with or perhaps are also considering instead of ne ohio.

 

 

I think that'd be pretty rare, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this.

I was hoping to see this thread in ABANDONED PROJECTS.

"Jones family buyers" aren't comparing their commute in Cleveland to the commutes of people in other places when they buy their home. They are comparing the commute from Amherst with the commute from Westlake or Rocky River. That is the market competition. Not a suburb of Houston. Not the Poconos or the Inland Empire. It's the Cleveland housing market that this project has to compete in.

 

I agree with this.  I know people that commute into NYC from Allentown and Hellertown, PA.  In Ohio, that would be similar to a commute from Port Clinton or Oak Harbor to DT Cleveland.  That is un-heard of.  In Cleveland, People would be more likely to commmute from Medina to DT versus Lodi to DT.  It represents a 45 minute drive versus an hour.  In other metro's, people are comaring a 1.5 hour commute to a 2 hour commute. 

 

For this prpject, I have no problems with it.  It represents luxury/resort style housing in the Metro area.  You have to respect what some people are looking for in a neighborhood or a house.  DT is not for everyone.  i believe this type opf housing is something that the market could use and is unique.  It is not overbuilt in the area.  Also, understand that probably very few people are actually commuting from it to Cleveland.  They could work in Lorain, Elyria, Norwalk etc. 

Perhaps, but I wonder how many jobs in Lorain, Elyria, or Norwalk can support the price range they are targeting.

You need to remember, all cities have hospitals, law firms, Dentist offices etc.  I had a friend who's father was a nuero- surgean (SP) at Sandusky hospital for 42 years.  They had a huge house on the lake in Vermillion.  It is like when you drive through a city such as East Liverpool, and you see that there are a few huge homes.  Sure, there are not not world hdqt's there, but just like any city in the US, there are the service based jobs that pay very well. 

^You need to remember, all cities have hospitals, law firms, Dentist offices etc. I had a friend who's father was a nuero- surgean (SP) at Sandusky hospital for 42 years. They had a huge house on the lake in Vermillion. It is like when you drive through a city such as East Liverpool, and you see that there are a few huge homes. Sure, there are not not world hdqt's there, but just like any city in the US, there are the service based jobs that pay very well.  

 

while I'm sure there are some people in the market for this type of housing and the accompanying high price tag...but 1,150? seems a lot...

The only reason I got a little fired up about the project is that the article specifically stated that some people are looking to move there and then commute to Downtown.  I know it won't be all of them, but it's still going to be some of them.  Downtown may not be for everyone, but there are plenty of places in or near the city that they could go if they didn't want to be close to work.  I've definitely calmed down about it, but that still aggravates me. 

I am with you Cleveland Pride.  I wish everyone could spend $1,000,000 on downtown housing, but not everyone wants it.  I believe it is true that an ambitious project such as this or Lakeview Bluffs in Fairport Harbor is good for the region as a whole, so I welcome it.  Either they could have built a cookie cutter sub-division here, or this, so I feal it is ambitious of the developer. 

^Agreed.  I'm slowly growing more appreciative of the resort aspect of this development, but I don't think I'm ever going to like it as a whole. 

 

On a side note, I just have to point out that this is not exactly housing for people who are on a tight budget.  Many of the people in this development could afford to live DT, they just flat out don't want it.  Most condos don't cost $1,000,000, and I'd guess that these houses wouldn't be a steal when compared to many of the condos currently on sale DT.  I know and agree that some people just don't like that life, but I don't really know what you're getting at by suggesting that people are going to move to this development because it's too expensive to live in Cleveland. 

I think gotribe was getting at the fact that the people are spending a million on many of these houses in South Amherst, and he wishes that (given the fact they have that much to spend) they would spend it downtown.  The problem is that they apparently would rather live in BFE (and can afford it).

 

But, yeah, the reason I got fired up about this project was because I hate to see people moving to the middle of nowhere and developing it, especially when they are working downtown.  So I guess all I can say is I hope they enjoy wasting a couple of hours every day driving to and from work.

 

EDIT: This brings me to another point...why is the risk of an accident while driving never factored into the relative safety comparisons between living close to downtown (if you work there) and out in BFE.  Of course, this also applies to driving home from bars after some drinks (or just having to face all the other drunk crazies out there).

Another thing you need to think of however is, alot of these people may be employed by downtown companies, but rarely go to their office.  Given the price tag on these homes, they would be high ranking in their companies, therefore doing alot of work from their home and additionally alot of travelling.  I don't think many of these people are 9 to 5'ers, therefore, they really don't care how far from the city they live. 

No ofense to some of the posts above, but they're quite off. The Cleveland metro is not 1/2 of Atlanta's. Not only does Atlanta's MSA include 20, yes 20 counties, but if you count the sqft of Atlanta metro and plop the same sqft in NE OHio, you have over 4 million (which includes Youngstown). The current CLE MSA is what, Cuyahoga, Lake, and Lorain? So 3 counties vs. 20? Cleveland is 77 sq miles, Atlanta is 132 sq miles. And just for the fun of it, Columbis is 212 sq miles........ Of course Atlanta is twice the size of CLE................................ and of course Columbus is the 6th biggest city in the USA.. I'm sure this method of statistics helps Anchorage so that the entire metroplex of Alaksa ranks higher.... yeah, sure, right, okay! :roll:

 

Some of you guys like to minimize Cleveland because you are used to the PD and the media doing it. I won't get into another MSA argument on this forum since it has happened before, but I am sick of people saying how small Cleveland is to Atlanta, Columbus or any other mid-sized city. The problem is that Cleveland's city proper sqft is very small compared to Columbus. Columbus and now Louisville or some other city annexed and immediately, the city population is stupendous. That is why Columbus is like the 6th biggest city in the USA yet the Cleveland metro blows Columbus' away. I guess it's Cleveland's fault for not annexing the entire county. Because that is what Columbus and Atlanta are - the entire county! If Cleveland did that, it'd be a city of 1.4 million, and one of the 5 biggest cities in the USA. The same applies to the MSA sqft of Cleveland vs. Atlanta. CLE+ is about equal to Atlanta metro. When the MSA's can make more sense and start including Akron (and eventually Youngstown and Canton) with Cleveland's MSA and stop including villages 150 miles from Atlanta with their MSA, I will take the MSA seriously. Until then, it makes no sense to call Cleveland this little small place, this dying city, the 100th biggest city, bla bla bla. Yeah, at this rate of minimizing the city, eventually Cleveland will be the 5th smallest city in the country, even smaller than Lakewood, the metro will be 300,000 people.... which is why MSA "official stats" and the media propaganda makes it hard to realize how big Cleveland and it's suburbs really are.

 

Also, several of you are saying that these long commutes that exist elsewhere don't exist here. I know several people who ride Laketran and live in Ashtabula, Kingstown, and even Conneaut! That's about 80+ miles. I also know people who ride the Metro into Summit County, which in many parts of south Summit county is 60 miles or more. A lot of people do this, not just a few.

"Jones family buyers" aren't comparing their commute in Cleveland to the commutes of people in other places when they buy their home.  They are comparing the commute from Amherst with the commute from Westlake or Rocky River.  That is the market competition.  Not a suburb of Houston.  Not the Poconos or the Inland Empire.  It's the Cleveland housing market that this project has to compete in.

 

I agree with this.  I know people that commute into NYC from Allentown and Hellertown, PA.  In Ohio, that would be similar to a commute from Port Clinton or Oak Harbor to DT Cleveland.  That is un-heard of.  In Cleveland, People would be more likely to commmute from Medina to DT versus Lodi to DT.  It represents a 45 minute drive versus an hour.  In other metro's, people are comaring a 1.5 hour commute to a 2 hour commute. 

 

 

i know, but thats assuming all the commuting buyers are only ne ohioans. i would not assume that because at the chi-chi-ness and price ranges it seems the developers are going for, it's obvious that they will need people from outside the area to buy into it too. especially for it to be as successful as its being envisioned. that puts all possible quarry living hopefuls from atlanta to cupertino to stryker in play (although ok maybe not stryker because any quarry fan from stryker would know you can throw up a factory-built home much cheaper on portage quarry & the scuba diving there is world class!  :laugh: ).

The quarries are nice, but I don't see them as being enough to make The Quarries draw from beyond NE Ohio.  I know the developer says it will.  I say BS.

^ now that we agree on. neither do i.

 

i also doubt there will be many commuters. seems more like a retirement community to me. i mean no golf course?

Retirement community sounds about right.

one word on this project:  Ick!

No ofense to some of the posts above, but they're quite off. The Cleveland metro is not 1/2 of Atlanta's. Not only does Atlanta's MSA include 20, yes 20 counties, but if you count the sqft of Atlanta metro and plop the same sqft in NE OHio, you have over 4 million (which includes Youngstown). The current CLE MSA is what, Cuyahoga, Lake, and Lorain? So 3 counties vs. 20? Cleveland is 77 sq miles, Atlanta is 132 sq miles. And just for the fun of it, Columbis is 212 sq miles........ Of course Atlanta is twice the size of CLE................................ and of course Columbus is the 6th biggest city in the USA.. I'm sure this method of statistics helps Anchorage so that the entire metroplex of Alaksa ranks higher.... yeah, sure, right, okay! :roll:

 

Some of you guys like to minimize Cleveland because you are used to the PD and the media doing it. I won't get into another MSA argument on this forum since it has happened before, but I am sick of people saying how small Cleveland is to Atlanta, Columbus or any other mid-sized city. The problem is that Cleveland's city proper sqft is very small compared to Columbus. Columbus and now Louisville or some other city annexed and immediately, the city population is stupendous. That is why Columbus is like the 6th biggest city in the USA yet the Cleveland metro blows Columbus' away. I guess it's Cleveland's fault for not annexing the entire county. Because that is what Columbus and Atlanta are - the entire county! If Cleveland did that, it'd be a city of 1.4 million, and one of the 5 biggest cities in the USA. The same applies to the MSA sqft of Cleveland vs. Atlanta. CLE+ is about equal to Atlanta metro. When the MSA's can make more sense and start including Akron (and eventually Youngstown and Canton) with Cleveland's MSA and stop including villages 150 miles from Atlanta with their MSA, I will take the MSA seriously. Until then, it makes no sense to call Cleveland this little small place, this dying city, the 100th biggest city, bla bla bla. Yeah, at this rate of minimizing the city, eventually Cleveland will be the 5th smallest city in the country, even smaller than Lakewood, the metro will be 300,000 people.... which is why MSA "official stats" and the media propaganda makes it hard to realize how big Cleveland and it's suburbs really are.

 

Also, several of you are saying that these long commutes that exist elsewhere don't exist here. I know several people who ride Laketran and live in Ashtabula, Kingstown, and even Conneaut! That's about 80+ miles. I also know people who ride the Metro into Summit County, which in many parts of south Summit county is 60 miles or more. A lot of people do this, not just a few.

 

Finally! Someone with some sense!!  Thanks for taking the time to post. I figured it would fall upon deaf ears, hence the reason I didn't bother posting similar info.

Seems there are a few forumers here who suffer from CDD (comprehension deficit disorder). If it's not spelled out by the media, it just doesn't 'compute'.

 

Finally! Someone with some sense!!  Thanks for taking the time to post. I figured it would fall upon deaf ears, hence the reason I didn't bother posting similar info.

Seems there are a few forumers here who suffer from CDD (comprehension deficit disorder). If it's not spelled out by the media, it just doesn't 'compute'.

 

No, just some of the statistics in that thread were so far off, I didn't even bother to post a reply. Not to mention the fact that it was really straying away form the subject (as is your post).

 

Also, try not to insult other forumers, carry on.