I honestly think the County will end up on Public Square. 

 

Where on Public Square? They're not going to build new, and they need space with a public interface (lobbies, public service windows/counters, waiting areas etc). Are you thinking your old haunts at 200 Public Square? It's a got the atrium for what the county might need, but I read that 1.2-million-square-foot building is nearly 90 percent leased. That leaves only about 120,000 square feet for the county. Not enough.

 

Maybe the old Society for Savings building might work? I don't know how much space it has (total vs available), but it sure does have a great public interface area!

Although they are saying they do not want to build, I just have this sneaky feeling to make that parking lot go away they would.  Granted we know other spaces that would be better suit the counties needs, but something in me says they will build.  I hope I'm wrong because a super tall hotel/hotel-condo belongs on that spot!

Believe me, if I were a 1-percenter, I'd build a great big vacant building on that parking lot just to get rid of the civic embarrassment of having a parking lot on Public Square.

 

But I just don't see the county doing that, considering everything its officials have said. Now, if it was a small part of a larger project there, to give it a stable revenue anchor, then maybe it might work.

 

That property is also a pretty big footprint. I don't remember its dimensions, but it wouldn't take many floors to provide for the county's needs. I remember calculating it once (somewhere in this thread), and I think I came up with 20-something stories -- and that was before the county's real estate study showed the county wouldn't move as many departments as I thought they would. So maybe 10-15 stories, with a half-dozen levels of parking above a lofty public atrium but below the county offices/file storage/hearing rooms?

 

As much as I hate that parking lot, I don't think it's worth a 15-story building. Or maybe I'm just being too greedy....

What about the Jacobs building on public square that was proposed? That was 20 some stories, would the county move in there? And maybe Jacobs would bump the building up by 20 stories to make it a 40 story complex with a residential component? rentals, condos?

Folks, let's not derail the thread with baseless speculation. Thanks.

So here's some "based" speculation: the county isn't moving into a building that doesn't already exist.

 

MTS's reference to Public Square however made me think of a building I hadn't thought of before -- the Society For Savings building. Anyone know what it's occupancy is? Key has the bank lobby but what about the upper floors? How many square feet does it have?

 

Otherwise, I still think the county is going to end up at the former Huntington, based on feedback I've gotten from county officials.

^I am pretty sure it is completely filled by Key and includes their cafeteria (and if I recall correctly some floors are directly attached to the Key Tower).

^^The Society for Savings Building is approximately 10 stories and I'm pretty sure Key Bank occupies the entire building.  I know there is a cafeteria on the 10th floor and I think it's on the Society side of the complex.  And obviously Key Bank has a beautiful branch on the ground floor.  I don't see this building working at all for the County.

 

My guess is the former Huntington Building on E9th.  Everything seems to be lining up as that building's vacancy rate increases and Huntington recently vacated a grand bank lobby on the ground floor that would be ideal for public use.  It also doesn't hurt that the building is literally on the corner of Main and Main.  I see no better option for the County besides new construction, but I think we all agree that's a long shot at this point.

 

^All the floors of Society are connected to Key Tower.  There is an interesting story from when the building was constructed about how the plans didn't account for the flexibility of Key Tower versus the rigid Society building when they designed the connector.  Because of this the connector actually buckled on several floors and had to be redesigned and replaced.

I guess it fits this thread better.

 

I see several buildings that could be possibly converted into apartments.

 

Cuyahoga County details plan to secure 225,000-square-foot headquarters and sell 13 properties

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cuyahoga County will shake up the real estate market Monday, seeking new headquarters space in downtown Cleveland and listing 13 properties -- including 1.4 million square feet in or near the central business district -- for sale.

 

The county's long-awaited request for proposals, a document soliciting bids from property owners and developers, heralds deals that might reshape parts of downtown Cleveland and revive vacant or little-used buildings with apartments, new offices, hotels or restaurants. And it marks a change in strategy for a government entity that historically sold real estate based solely on price --  without considering factors such as economic development,  environmental issues, community impact or long-term tax generation.

 

Requiring 225,000 square feet of downtown office space, the county is one of the largest potential users to hit the market in years. The headquarters deal would involve more than 700 people, moving from the county's administration building, an auto title building on Superior Avenue and a handful of leased spaces downtown and on the west bank of the Flats.

 

For its new headquarters, the county is open to leasing or buying, in an existing building or at new construction, a representative of the CBRE Group Inc. real estate brokerage said during a Cuyahoga County Council committee meeting today. The brokerage, with help from the Chartwell Group and consulting firm Ariel Ventures, is representing the county in its consolidation and sale efforts.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/07/cuyahoga_county_reveals_plan_t.html

Is this really news?  We all knew this was coming.  The real news will be in September when RFPs are due and/or when the county makes it decision afterwards.  In the meantime, after the RFPs are announced we will of course all have a blast for a few months telling the county what it SHOULD DO.  Should be fun.

There is some news in this, in terms of the county officially putting downtown properties on the market on Monday.

 

Granted, it's summertime which means it's a slow-news time of the year, so this article will probably be on the front page of tomorrow's paper!

^Kind of like the "OMG THERE'S NO PARKING FOR THE CONVENTION CENTER" headline today?

More information.

 

 

Cuyahoga County office search, building sales could reshape parts of downtown Cleveland

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Downtown Cleveland's quest for revival could get a boost from Cuyahoga County, which plans to shift hundreds of workers into a new headquarters and sell 13 buildings -- eight of them in or near the heart of the city.

 

On Monday, the county expects to release its long-awaited request for bids from landlords and developers. By year's end, county leaders hope to have deals in progress -- if not done -- for 225,000 square feet of downtown offices, 200,000 square feet of storage and property sales ranging from the Ameritrust complex on East Ninth Street to the Whitlatch Building on Carnegie Avenue.

 

The headquarters move, involving 700-plus employees, has the potential to revitalize a little-used building or shore up a multi-tenant property. The prospect of snagging a large, stable government tenant might even spur proposals for new construction, though real estate experts predict the county will land in existing, leased space. The county hopes to move in early 2014.

 

Selling off county-owned buildings, meanwhile, would shift key downtown Cleveland properties into private hands. Developers already are toying with putting apartments in the Swetland Building, at 1010 Euclid Ave., or demolishing the county's administration building for a hotel, parking or other uses next to the new convention center and medical mart complex.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/07/cuyahoga_county_office_search.html

".....demolishing the county's administration building for a hotel, parking or other uses next to the new convention center and medical mart complex..."

 

Could a 1,000-room convention hotel sit on Ontario & Lakeside where the current County Admin building is? How many stories would it have to be and would there be enough horizontal space on the lower levels for ballrooms, etc?

^If money wasn't an object, there would be no limits on how tall or how many rooms the site could accomodate. That said - most 'convention hotels' in comparable markets aren't striving to make an impact on the skyline or the architectural scene.

I don't see the need for any urgency in selling the old admin building.  Long term, it may be wise for the county to hold on to that land until the need for expansion of the medical mart in the foreseeable future is ruled out.  I am skeptical about the prospects of a 'convention hotel' here anyway.  We are not building a supersized convention center.  We probably won't need a supersized hotel attached to it.  Moreover, I will go out on a limb here and say this board will erupt with dissatisfaction when the renderings are released of any proposed hotel.  I can't see how they could make it work, especially considering the inability to attach any parking 

^^The Society for Savings Building is approximately 10 stories and I'm pretty sure Key Bank occupies the entire building.  I know there is a cafeteria on the 10th floor and I think it's on the Society side of the complex.  And obviously Key Bank has a beautiful branch on the ground floor.  I don't see this building working at all for the County.

 

My guess is the former Huntington Building on E9th.  Everything seems to be lining up as that building's vacancy rate increases and Huntington recently vacated a grand bank lobby on the ground floor that would be ideal for public use.  It also doesn't hurt that the building is literally on the corner of Main and Main.  I see no better option for the County besides new construction, but I think we all agree that's a long shot at this point.

 

^All the floors of Society are connected to Key Tower.  There is an interesting story from when the building was constructed about how the plans didn't account for the flexibility of Key Tower versus the rigid Society building when they designed the connector.  Because of this the connector actually buckled on several floors and had to be redesigned and replaced.

 

I can attest to this as I've been inside that building. Key Bank has a really nice and historic board room with secret doors on the middle floors as well as the largest trading Floor between New York and Chicago. Closed off rooms for IPOs are also in the middle floors

^If money wasn't an object, there would be no limits on how tall or how many rooms the site could accomodate. That said - most 'convention hotels' in comparable markets aren't striving to make an impact on the skyline or the architectural scene.

 

I think Pugu was asking that given the size of the lot of the county's current headquarters, what's the minimum height the building could be to hold 1,000 rooms?

Yesterday's article....

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/07/cuyahoga_county_reveals_plan_t.html

....states that:

 

"the Administration Building, a 148,245-square-foot structure on 1.9 acres next to the new convention center and medical mart. Though a buyer could reuse the building, real estate experts view the property as a development site, with potential for new construction including parking or a hotel."

 

1.9 acres is 82,764 square feet. Assuming a new hotel takes up slightly less than that, and to simplify the calculations, let's say the hotel's ground floor is 80,000 square feet.

 

According to http://www.ruckuswireless.com/casestudies/holiday-inn-comfort-suites...

 

Comfort Suites

18,000 square feet per floor, 60 rooms per floor  4

 

Holiday Inn Express

15,000 square feet per floor, 33 rooms per floor

 

So let's say half the hotel has small rooms like the Comfort Suites example, and the other half has larger rooms like the Holiday Inn Express. The 18,000 sf fits into the 80,000 sf footprint 4.44 times. So let's round down to 4 to allow for hallways, stairwells, elevator lobby, etc. Four x 60 = 240 small rooms per floor. The 15,000 sf fits into the 80,000 sf footprint 5.33 times. So let's round down to 5. Five x 33 = 165 larger rooms per floor.

 

So two floors of smaller rooms gets us 480 rooms. And three floors of larger rooms gets us 495 rooms. Add in another floor of 25 large-size suites measuring about 3,000 sf each and you get a six-floor building. Make the ground floor a lobby/retail/restaurant/bar, the second floor meeting/banquet facilities, the third floor for maintenance, laundry and other support facilities, and a fourth floor for an indoor pool and fitness center. Add all that together and we're talking maybe a 10-story building at minimum. It could be taller if the building does not take up the entire footprint of the administration building which, admittedly, is a very large footprint -- it's about four or five times larger than the Marriott at Key Center's footprint.

 

So if you designed a 1,000-room convention hotel as slender as the Marriott, we could be talking a 40- to 50-story building. And this is without any parking as part of the building's shaft. The parking deck could be built next to the hotel.

^Thanks KJP for the analysis. 40-50 stories---that's not too crazy at all--and the Marriott is pretty slender and the lot size is large, so there is a lot of flexibility here. Downtown does sell out completely from time to time and big events, like the DNC and large shows, bypass CLE because of our lack of hotel rooms. A major 1,000-room hotel of a good brand here would really help the city.

For comparison...the Hilton under construction now that will connect to the Columbus convention center is around 13 stories and 532 rooms and the Hyatt that is pretty close is 633 rooms.

Very interesting.  I didn't realize the county headquarters were on that big of a piece of land.  Thanks for running the numbers, KJP!

I missed this yesterday!

 

County Executive Ed FitzGerald: Public will get details on real estate plans before decision is made

Published: Sunday, July 22, 2012, 9:06 PM

  By Evelyn Theiss, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald pledged last week to make public all proposals for selling county property, before any deals are approved by the county council.

 

"Once we've negotiated, we'll go to council," he said in an interview. "They'll put it on the docket for a public meeting, they'll reveal it on the agenda. At that point, everything becomes transparent. And our decision at that point will not be final or irreversible."

 

FitzGerald made the pledge two days after the county's real estate consultant told County Council that only the names of developers would be publicly disclosed before deals were struck for properties. Other details would be discussed in closed-door sessions.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/07/fitzgerald_says_public_will_ge.html

http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120807/FREE/120809872

 

Cuyahoga County hosts gathering to outline its property consolidation plans

By JAY MILLER and STAN BULLARD

1:19 pm, August 7, 2012

Under the ornate, four-story Cleveland Trust Co. rotunda at East Ninth Street and Euclid Avenue in downtown Cleveland, Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald this morning kicked off what he hopes will be a modern-day land rush.

 

There are some big names in the NEO development world that attended this... I can't wait to see the proposals.

^The one name I saw on there that was in attendance was Rick Foran, a name I hadn't heard in several years. 

There's a handful of properties on that list that are very desireable.  The two I'm most curious about are the least desireable:  Ameritrust Tower & the old County Juvenile Court buildings

I have high hopes and extremely low expectations for this entire project. I'm hoping for something grander than just a bunch of apartment conversations. There has to be a new construction project in one of those plans.

Moved the Ameritrust/Breuer Tower-only discussion here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20128.0.html

 

Disposition of other county properties might have to be focused into other threads as well. Let's keep this thread focused on where the county administration offices end up. Thanks!

Cuyahoga County to consider paying $2 million for architectural, engineering work on new headquarters

Published: Monday, August 13, 2012, 10:00 PM    Updated: Monday, August 13, 2012, 11:29 PM

  By Laura Johnston, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald pulled a $2 million real-estate consulting contract Monday from Tuesday's County Council agenda.

 

FitzGerald said the contract had not been properly vetted.

 

The contract - which FitzGerald said could cost as little as $370,000 - calls for URS Corp. to analyze prospective office space and develop plans to consolidate county workers.

 

FitzGerald recommended San Francisco-based URS Corp. ahead of four other firms, which submitted architecture and engineering qualifications to move county departments into a new administration building and storage facility.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2012/08/cuyahoga_county_to_consider_paying_2_million_for_architectural_engineering_work_on_new_headquarters.html#incart_river_default

Staubach sure comes off as pretty crooked in all this business, or at least unscrupulous. Amazing how much they were paid for... nothing really useful at the end of the day.

 

Anyone else tired of PD articles with a tone that subtlely suggests there my be something untoward going on even when there's really not thing suspicious in the facts they report?  The Michale McIntyre piece about the RTA survey contract was kind of dumb like that too.

Anyone else tired of PD articles with a tone that subtlely suggests there my be something untoward going on even when there's really not thing suspicious in the facts they report?  The Michale McIntyre piece about the RTA survey contract was kind of dumb like that too.

 

Yep. Many PD writers refuse to write about something unless there is a controversy involved. Maybe when there is no controversy, they write as if there is one?

It seems everyone is cynical of the local and county governments due to the many years of they way things have been run and of course the culmination of corruption the past few years..  You really see it in the Cleveland.com posts with nearly every article (whether it has anything to do with it or not)

But the PD should be above all that.  Likely they probably think they are being a "watchdog" keeping an eye out for questionable procedures, but they also need to be more responsible in doing so.   

reading the comments after a PD article on anything outside Cleveland sports is about as informative as the graffiti in a portajohn...  don't read too much into it.

 

I've talked to several people who've gone on these tours and all said the current County Admin building is a complete joke from top to bottom.  Impossible work conditions, storage boxes EVERYWHERE, horrendous climate controls, windows stuck open/closed, poor lighting, ripped up carpeting, nasty restrooms...  several also said the Breuer Tower is the best option for new County offices.  Makes me wonder how much everyone will cringe if that's the result of this study, after so much controversy

reading the comments after a PD article on anything outside Cleveland sports is about as informative as the graffiti in a portajohn...  don't read too much into it.

 

I've talked to several people who've gone on these tours and all said the current County Admin building is a complete joke from top to bottom.  Impossible work conditions, storage boxes EVERYWHERE, horrendous climate controls, windows stuck open/closed, poor lighting, ripped up carpeting, nasty restrooms...  several also said the Breuer Tower is the best option for new County offices.  Makes me wonder how much everyone will cringe if that's the result of this study, after so much controversy

 

Well I think we all are pretty aware of that by now.  But at the same time I'm pretty sure people have a reason to be cynical, given the extent and level that so many things happened.  And Cuyahoga County govt has a pretty bad reputation on a national and even international level at this point.  I'm just saying the PD needs to be more responsible in their own assesmen ts rather than continue to fuel mistrust.

 

Hopefully the old County Admin Building gets torn down and something exciting built in its spot.  I really wouldn't mind so much the county being in the Breuer Tower, since it would preserve public access to the rotunda, but I still would prefer it to be a "W" type hotel with a cool retro theme, with the rotunda offering an interesting departure. 

In that regard i can see a modern forward thinking company say that a used office might not work for them due to how they work in groups. However I don't think a gov entity needs to worry about that. It is compartmentalized. Many companies are using skyscrapers that were designed before this building.  Financially, i think its probably the best option. In this environment, that's all that matters.

In that regard i can see a modern forward thinking company say that a used office might not work for them due to how they work in groups. However I don't think a gov entity needs to worry about that. It is compartmentalized. Many companies are using skyscrapers that were designed before this building.  Financially, i think its probably the best option. In this environment, that's all that matters.

I have no problem with the country moving into new construction, provided that taxpayers aren't paying to build it. If private developers put up their own money to demo Breuer tower (or something else) for a new building and 20 year lease from the county, sounds good to me.

No need to demo Breuer tower when we have so many other parking lots to fill!

If anyone moves to demo Breuer tower, I, and as many architects as I can muster, will chain ourselves to it. As long as we can pick up a wifi signal and someone can get loose to bring us coffee.

Please bear in mind I have very little knowledge about the County's needs/plans but I am wondering if there are any chances of the following happening...

 

1.  The county sells the Ameritrust complex to a developer who leases the renovated space back to the county.

 

2.  Dick Jacobs develops a new tower on Public Square that the county leases.

^I think we'd all love to see a new tower either on Jacob's public square lot or one of the other surface lots. I'm sure one or more will be proposed, but I still think the county will end up in the Huntington building in the end.

 

If anyone moves to demo Breuer tower, I, and as many architects as I can muster, will chain ourselves to it. As long as we can pick up a wifi signal and someone can get loose to bring us coffee.

People keep expressing this adoration of Breuer tower and I just don't get it. I'd hate to lose a building of that size, but IMO it's uglier than the pile of dog crap sitting on my driveway that my neighbor keeps forgetting to come pick up even though we both saw his dog "put" it there. What were we talking about?

I used to hate it, but I've warmed up to it a bit. As for the entire complex, there's lots of room for improvement at street level, that's for sure.

 

However, if more people saw what the tower looked like when new, I think they would like it. Most have only seen the blackish, soot covered version. There are cool pics somewhere where the building looks very clean and attractive. 

^I think we'd all love to see a new tower either on Jacob's public square lot or one of the other surface lots. I'm sure one or more will be proposed, but I still think the county will end up in the Huntington building in the end.

 

If anyone moves to demo Breuer tower, I, and as many architects as I can muster, will chain ourselves to it. As long as we can pick up a wifi signal and someone can get loose to bring us coffee.

People keep expressing this adoration of Breuer tower and I just don't get it. I'd hate to lose a building of that size, but IMO it's uglier than the pile of dog crap sitting on my driveway that my neighbor keeps forgetting to come pick up even though we both saw his dog "put" it there. What were we talking about?

 

It could be way uglier, and it wouldn't matter. Its the historical significance that we adore. I would agrue it to be one of, if not THE, most risky move ever designed here.

 

I don't want us to get on topic, so lets just leave it at "I hope it stays" :)

 

Though, I am seriously excited about the thought of Jacobs Public Square Tower becoming a bit more realistic. (edit!)

^I think we'd all love to see a new tower either on Jacob's public square lot or one of the other surface lots. I'm sure one or more will be proposed, but I still think the county will end up in the Huntington building in the end.

 

If anyone moves to demo Breuer tower, I, and as many architects as I can muster, will chain ourselves to it. As long as we can pick up a wifi signal and someone can get loose to bring us coffee.

People keep expressing this adoration of Breuer tower and I just don't get it. I'd hate to lose a building of that size, but IMO it's uglier than the pile of dog crap sitting on my driveway that my neighbor keeps forgetting to come pick up even though we both saw his dog "put" it there. What were we talking about?

Yes the Tower is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING to look at but that is an huge presence on the street and the skyline as well so I wouldn't want it torn down. My question is this do you think the county can hire a company to redo the outside of the building then fix the inside and move in there? It would make the building look more presentable, keep the building standing and would be large enough to house all county operations.

 

 

Id rather they demolish the entire PNC tower complex. Now that complex is doing terrible harm to Euclid Avenue, and Vincent Avenue.

 

But at this point in time, there are far too many empty lots to be demolishing anything, especially the size of Breuer Tower which has grown on me over the years.

I think the tower is unique, nobody's going to like every architectural style. What I think is absolutely hideous are the adjoining office buildings and the parking structure. YUCK. those need to go. Including the rusting skybridge!

^Most people would agree with that.  WRL had a really interesting design alternative that maintained the tower and replaced the low rise office structure with a modern, open, airy glass tower of 15-20 stories IIRC.  I'll see if I can find the rendering.

 

EDIT - Here it is.  Renderings start on slide 24.  http://www.docstoc.com/docs/document-preview.aspx?doc_id=951817

Are the City (lakefront) and the County (admin bldg) in some kind of contest to see which entity can hire more consultants and get more proposals over the years on the same subject?  To date, how much money has the county spent to have these studies done?

^Thank you.  With the Lakefront it is just we don't and will never have the money to do anything so we will continue to study and propose.  Right now with the county I think it is cover your ass.

What building is the glass one?