Posted June 20, 200618 yr Click on link below to see video: http://www.peacetakescourage.com/32.html Peace Takes Courage is a project by Ava Lowery. Ava is a 15 year old student and peace activist from Alabama. In Mid-March 2005, she created her first animation. Since then she has made over 70 animations, many of them about the war in Iraq. In April 2006, Cindy Sheehan wrote an article about Ava and her effort to promote peace through this website. Ava has been featured on Progressive Magazine online, MichaelMoore.com, Buzzflash.com, Truthout.org, and other sites. If you would like to schedule an interview with Ava please email us at: [email protected] See more at http://www.peacetakescourage.com
June 20, 200618 yr ^They can have all the opinions they want. One just has to decide how much weight to give them. And if you're 15, you don't know shit about shit, and you can opine all you want, but I'm sorry, I'm gonna have a really hard time giving a shit.
June 20, 200618 yr ^I do agree that you must weigh what a younger person is saying, as you must with just about anybody. I can look at how my views have changed over the last few years and why they changed. They have changed because I've expressed them, someone has told me why I'm wrong, causing me to rethink my opinion (sometimes). That is even obvious in some discussions across this board.
June 20, 200618 yr Maybe I didn't give you guys enough background. She is a progressive minded 15 year old that started a website and the comments posted on this video clip (http://www.peacetakescourage.com/32.html) are responses she has gotten from others via email because of her views. She comes across far more intelligent than the responses she has received. Here is a CNN interview of Avy Lowery, I didn't realize she was getting so much press when I posted this thread this morning: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0UopOw7FEaI&mode=related&search=Ava%20Lowery
June 20, 200618 yr Excellent! Maybe we should weigh people's opinions based on their intelligence, not their age.
June 20, 200618 yr The content of their arguments, I've got no problem with that. Let's look at this one...nearly 100MM Americans are represented by the hate mail received by a 15 year old. Yeah, I change my mind.
June 20, 200618 yr Yeah, but it echos alot of the "pro war" letters to the editors that we've all seen in our local papers, as well. The basic impulse is the same, if the language is more extreme. And really, how can someone tell a 15 year old girl that she should have to leave her home because they don't agree with her opinion, or worse, that she should be killed and then her body raped and left to rot? Pretty heinous, but it seems to be par for the course amongst the extreme right. Anne Coulter, anyone?
June 20, 200618 yr I definitely don't support the senders of hate mail on either side, Anne Coulter included. And further, I resent the implication (not by you, X, but by this 15-year-old) that I do. And I'd bet you'd find that the same is true of most folks on both sides of the debate. And furthermore, I'd observe that she's rather unlikely to accomplish much of anything, if "winning the debate" is her goal - one does little to change minds by asserting that your opponents' arguments are summed up by the anonymous rantings of illiterate hate-mail senders. I should clarify what I was saying above - the arguments of anyone, a 15 year old or a 50 year old history professor or a Senator or anyone, should be weighed on their merits. But the opinions of learned professor, or a Senator, or an expert in the field, should be granted more weight than the opinions of a 15-year-old who hasn't even finished high school. I don't think that's a knock on them personally, and I'd happily entertain their arguments - I'm just not going to consider their judgements to be as likely to be founded on a wise, patient consideration of the facts.
June 20, 200618 yr Well I'm sure glad somebody wasn't recording me and what I had to say about the world when I was 15 because I was pretty much an idiot, as are 99% of 15 year-olds. And unfortunately whatever fame she is building from this is going to haunt her the rest of her life.
June 20, 200618 yr hey, nothing this girl put out there hasn't been said by Dumb F's on conservative blogs.
June 21, 200618 yr one does little to change minds by asserting that your opponents' arguments are summed up by the anonymous rantings of illiterate hate-mail senders. I find her video quite clever. If those quotes are truly what she is receiving in the mail or being sent via email, I applaud her for exposing the ignorance she has received. As someone who works for the defense sector of the government I am well aware of comments like that and they aren't far fetched. Maybe they hit home with me personally. Not that things like that are said to me, but I have heard similar comments made at others. On this board alone, there are many who always put down any conservative opinion, and constantly call the president an idiot. Is that right? At least the man stands for what he believes in. You're damn straight there are many on here that put down the conservative opinion. This is an urban board for crying out loud. If you want to read the viewpoints of the conservative mentality in Cincinnati then you can pick up the daily copy of the Cincinnati Enquirer. I voted for Bush during the first term and apologize for being such a blind idiot. He has turned out to be an utter embarrassment to this country. I don't see your point about Bush standing for what he believed in. There are many evil people in the world that stand for what they believe in. Bush has been one of the worst Presidents of our generation on the environment, public transportation, government spending. As someone who is a former Air Force veteran and currently working in the government sector, I am disgraced by this current administration. Does that make me unpatriotic? Absolutely not, I am a free thinker and don't just throw 10 yellow ribbon stickers on my car that were made in China and bought in a gas station just because that is the sheep thing to do. I love my country and I will be damned if I am going to keep my mouth shut because that is the misguided patriotic thing to do. This President has failed myself and other Americans. I used to be a registered Republican but the way the ultra right has grabbed hold of the Republican party and turned it into a right wing freak show has pushed me to the left. Face it, Bush and Taft are horrible leaders and regardless of their education, they are dumber than a box of rocks. It is time for fresh progressive minded people to lead our country and this great state that I moved too.
June 21, 200618 yr I definitely don't support the senders of hate mail on either side, Anne Coulter included. And further, I resent the implication (not by you, X, but by this 15-year-old) that I do. And I'd bet you'd find that the same is true of most folks on both sides of the debate. And furthermore, I'd observe that she's rather unlikely to accomplish much of anything, if "winning the debate" is her goal - one does little to change minds by asserting that your opponents' arguments are summed up by the anonymous rantings of illiterate hate-mail senders. I should clarify what I was saying above - the arguments of anyone, a 15 year old or a 50 year old history professor or a Senator or anyone, should be weighed on their merits. But the opinions of learned professor, or a Senator, or an expert in the field, should be granted more weight than the opinions of a 15-year-old who hasn't even finished high school. I don't think that's a knock on them personally, and I'd happily entertain their arguments - I'm just not going to consider their judgements to be as likely to be founded on a wise, patient consideration of the facts. I certainly agree with most of what you've said. She did cast an overly broad net, and she won't win any friends in that respect. That said, I do think that she was clever to cast a mirror on some of the more extreme rhetoric being cast at her by some far right wingers. I would think her means, if the goal was to persuade, was to try and make more sensible people recoil at the horrific vitriole of the fringe. This is really no different than the popular conservative tact of alluding to "hippies spitting on our soldiers", although of course, that was from a war 30 years ago, not the current one.
June 21, 200618 yr >If those quotes are truly what she is receiving in the mail or being sent via email, I applaud her for exposing the ignorance she has received. Well it definitely goes both ways, I have heard incredibly naive and misinformed sloganeering by democrats like "Democrats is fer the werkin' man" and "Bush is the worst Republican since Kennedy" and "We shoulda' just blow'd everyone up". Politicians aren't for you or me or anyone but themselves. Very few people in national politics give a damn about anything else other than getting their names in the history books. Going to important meetings and constantly having a full calender is like a drug to these people. But the larger issue here is that this girl was either 10 or 11 at the time of the terrorist attacks, she has been influenced by those around her just as a kid raised on the other side of the aisle would have. It's like, my youngest brother is 15 and on his high school's speech & debate team, maybe CSPAN should tune in to their debates to hear about what's really going on in Iraq.
June 21, 200618 yr ^Sorry man, but the "sloganeering" on the left pales in comparison to the right. Cut and Run, Blame Game, Flip-Flop, Sanctity of Marriage, Tax and Spend Liberals, WMD's, Compassionate Conservatism, Uniter, not a divider, and all the other talking points they release to the media to coordinate their message. Karl Rove started his career in advertising and is a genius at creating these kinds of slogans. It kills me how the Conservatives have been in control of Congress since 1995, the White House since 2001, and now the Supreme Court, yet they still find a way to convince the American people that it's the "tax and spend" Liberals who they should blame for their lotten lives. What more do they want? Yes we Liberals are pissed off at the current administration and feel the need to be bullish with our opinions, but the conservatives have all the power so no need to get your panties in a bunch.
June 21, 200618 yr I think the crap that comes from the far right is a lot more offensive than the crap that comes from the far left. Certainly lumping the entire "32%" together as ignorant hate-mailers is disingenuous, but really many of the things in that video are more blunt versions of the letters to the editor etc. that I see in the paper all the time. It seems like every other day there is someone implying--if not explicitly stating--that liberal Democrats hate America or support terrorists or are enemies of God, and so on. I personally am angered and offended that so many people would say such things about me because I might fall on the left side of some issue. Meanwhile, rarely or never is there a lefty letter-writer making similarly serious accusations against conservative citizens. (And I am speaking of the back-and-forth between Average Joes, not the politicians... the politicians only calculate how best to encourage the Average Joes to say those things on their behalf.) Yes, I've seen plenty of examples of liberals calling conservatives stupid, but really, who hasn't called someone stupid before? I'd rather be called stupid than a traitor.
June 21, 200618 yr >Sorry man, but the "sloganeering" on the left pales in comparison to the right. By sloganeering I meant repetition of phrases people have heard elsewhere, either in the media somewhere or from other people in person. People love little sayings, the cleverness somehow gives credibility to the message. People generally don't like to make open-ended statements. >Cut and Run, Blame Game, Flip-Flop, Sanctity of Marriage, Tax and Spend Liberals, WMD's, Compassionate Conservatism, Uniter, not a divider, and all the other talking points they release to the media to coordinate Well don't forget Bill "Family Values" Clinton, it takes a village, or any of that crap from the 90's. It's mostly all the same no matter who's in charge.
June 21, 200618 yr Look, all of this is like a peeing contest..."your anonymous hate-mailing morons are more vitriolic than ours!" "No, ours are far less offensive than yours are!" I hope folks can see how 1) right-wingers are more likely to be exposed to the extremes of left-wing hate, and vice-versa, 2) each group's subjective perception of that vitriol is going to be influenced both by what they've seen and whether they're the ones being attacked, and 3) the whole debate is nothing more than a distraction - at the very least, it's entirely non-productive. Responsible voices don't do things like call all Liberals unpatriotic. Honest, they don't say that, it's a false charge. There may be letters to the editor, I'm sure there are blog posts, and obviously there's hate mail that claims otherwise - but that ain't what I think, it ain't what folks I read think, and I wouldn't support someone who thought it. Yes, Anne Coulter is full of vitriol - and I don't pay attention to her, because I'm simply not interested in what she has to spew. Another fallacy this brings up is the implication that somehow the individuals who support a policy are a good means by which to judge the wisdom of that policy. Sure, if Pat Robertson is all gung ho for some policy, I'm going to give it a second look, because my "don't trust this" antennae will be vibrating...but really, if someone poses the question, "lots of hate-filled morons think building a border fence is a good idea - what does that tell you about the wisdom of that policy?", the answer is, "not much at all." Whether we should build a border fence is a policy question that should be answered by considering the security risks of not having one, the humanitarian implications, the geopolitical impact of building it, the costs, etc., etc. - it's not a question that should be decided based on the psychological impact the loss will have on those who disagree with you. I'm excessively liberal in most all things - of the Wilsonian liberal strain, the non-isolationist strain. I favor the war in Iraq in exactly the same way I favored Clinton's war in the Balkans - the same way any Truman Democrat would support both. I don't think that makes me a hate-spewing gay-bashing oil-hungry racist demogogue; and neither does it make those who disagree with me into America-hating anti-family leftist communists. But the point is, even if I were a hate-spewing gay-bashing oil-hungry racist demogogue, it wouldn't change whether the policy was wise to pursue or not. That's the risk we all run, of conflating the arguer with the argument. And so, coming full circle...I understand, there are some really hate-filled folks out there: I've seen a lot of those morons coming after righties; and with this, we see such morons coming after this 15-year-old. OK. And? And this means what, exactly? We should change our foreign policy because Bush's supporters include some idiots? Is that really a wise way to approach foreign policy?
June 21, 200618 yr It's times like this when I turn to The Ramones to help me sort things out: We're a happy family We're a happy family We're a happy family Me mom and daddy Sitting here in Queens Eating refried beans We're in all the magazines Gulpin' down thorazines We ain't got no friends Our troubles never end No Christmas cards to send Daddy likes men Daddy's telling lies Baby's eating flies Mommy's on pills Baby's got the chills I'm friends with the President I'm friends with the Pope We're all making a fortune Selling Daddy's dope
June 22, 200618 yr well, I'm impressed at how techincally adept these kids are,...for a 15 year old to put out a website and animations and all, and here I am still trying to figure out powerpoint. I favor the war in Iraq in exactly the same way I favored Clinton's war in the Balkans - the same way any Truman Democrat would support both. I don't think that makes me a hate-spewing gay-bashing oil-hungry racist demogogue; and neither does it make those who disagree with me into America-hating anti-family leftist communists. I am in a similar position as I supported the war too. Yet I am hardley a Bush supporter, and one can certainly question the execution of this war.
June 22, 200618 yr ^Looked at in the context of other wars, this has been remarkably, amazingly well-executed. There's really no comparison. Just look at Washington in New York during the Revolution, or the Canadian invasions during the War of 1812, or the Red River campaign during the Civil War, or Belleau Woods in WWI, or Guadalcanal in WWII, or the whole first month of the Korean War, etc., etc., etc.. But the overall goal was extremely ambitious - rebuilding a country after decimating it for 12 years. It's never been a sure bet, and still isn't - but I've always thought it was worth the risk.
June 22, 200618 yr But the overall goal was extremely ambitious - rebuilding a country after decimating it for 12 years. It's never been a sure bet, and still isn't - but I've always thought it was worth the risk. Assuming the administrations's goal was in fact to rebuild a devasted region, I look forward to supporting their future endeavors in Liberia, Sierra Leone, Haiti, Albania, Sudan and our nation's neglected urban centers. KF
June 22, 200618 yr ^To be completely honest with you - so do I! That doesn't mean invading every dysfunctional unstable state in the world - diplomacy, economic pressure and incentives, etc. - there are lots of methods. All of which are made infinitely more effective by the credible threat of force.
June 22, 200618 yr She has some amazingly powerful videos. The simplicity and choice of photos and music is chilling. If these were made by a 30 year old they would still be powerful but the fact that they are done by a 15 year old makes them even more impressive. http://www.peacetakescourage.com/liberationnotworking.html http://www.peacetakescourage.com/wwjd.html
June 22, 200618 yr I'm no isolationist myself. But, if the goal of this war was to spread democracy around the world, then this was an exceedingly expensive, risky, and seemingly ineffective way to do it. What is the opportunity cost of the money we've spent on this war? Of the political goodwill we've burned? Why didn't we finish our work in Afghanistan first?
June 22, 200618 yr It's not to spread democracy, it's to spread capitalism. Follow the money boys and girls.
June 22, 200618 yr how come there isnt one thread on here dedicated to the good things we have done in Iraq?
June 23, 200618 yr how come there isnt one thread on here dedicated to the good things we have done in Iraq? Because no one from the other viewpoint has done it yet. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 23, 200618 yr It's not to spread democracy, it's to spread capitalism. Follow the money boys and girls. Magyar is wise beyond his years... though I really don't know how old he is... The proverbial nail has officially been hit on the head.
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