June 14, 20196 yr 5 minutes ago, freefourur said: I'd like a Marshalls as a worker downtown. It'd be nice to do some shopping during lunch. Moving the discussion here– if cities like Minneapolis can have a Target, Marshalls, Pac Sun, etc. downtown, Cleveland should be able to.
June 14, 20196 yr 6 minutes ago, downtownjoe said: Moving the discussion here– if cities like Minneapolis can have a Target, Marshalls, Pac Sun, etc. downtown, Cleveland should be able to. Minneapolis is the HQ of target, so I hope that they have one downtown. It would be real helpful if we had an anchor store downtown. Once we have that other retail will show up.
June 14, 20196 yr Maybe national retail chains just need more surface parking downtown before committing. ?
June 16, 20195 yr Dollar General quietly moved into a storefront location at Reserve Square. More info about DGX concepts. https://www.bisnow.com/national/news/retail/after-cautious-start-dollar-general-poised-to-invade-cities-with-its-dgx-concept-94558#ath As of Fall 2018, there were only 3 in existence. Nice to see big chains investing in downtown! Edited June 16, 20195 yr by downtownjoe More info
June 17, 20195 yr I for one, will accept full credit for when Target opens a store downtown ? Edited June 17, 20195 yr by smimes
June 17, 20195 yr ^ lol that is excellent -- i'll do the same -- that earns you former of the week award! and that is cool news about dgx in reserve square because seriously downtown needs 99 cent stores and the like in the mix too.
June 17, 20195 yr ^^Please direct Target to the old Huntington building. Or better yet, the first two floors of Sherwin Williams' fancy new tower ?
June 17, 20195 yr On 6/14/2019 at 10:36 AM, KFM44107 said: Minneapolis is the HQ of target, so I hope that they have one downtown. It would be real helpful if we had an anchor store downtown. Once we have that other retail will show up. They do--its on Nicollet Mall
June 17, 20195 yr 1 minute ago, YO to the CLE said: ^^Please direct Target to the old Huntington building. Or better yet, the first two floors of Sherwin Williams' fancy new tower ? A city Target, with its large low cost grocery section, in downtown CLE would take a real toll on Heinen's now. Let alone in the Huntington Bldg.
June 17, 20195 yr 24 minutes ago, Oxford19 said: A city Target, with its large low cost grocery section, in downtown CLE would take a real toll on Heinen's now. Let alone in the Huntington Bldg. If your logic is correct, Dollar General X will do a number on Heinen's– we'll see. I'll be headed to Heinen's for anything meat/vegetable/fruit/prepared food related. Anything else, I'll use DGX. Target and Heinen's have different uses. I won't abandoned Heinen's because I can buy lesser quality meat and frozen meals at Target. Anyone who already shops and spends significant amounts per week at Heinen's shops there for a reason or else they'd drive out to the OHC/Midtown for Dave's or Aldi's.
June 17, 20195 yr 13 minutes ago, downtownjoe said: If your logic is correct, Dollar General X will do a number on Heinen's– we'll see. I'll be headed to Heinen's for anything meat/vegetable/fruit/prepared food related. Anything else, I'll use DGX. Target and Heinen's have different uses. I won't abandoned Heinen's because I can buy lesser quality meat and frozen meals at Target. Anyone who already shops and spends significant amounts per week at Heinen's shops there for a reason or else they'd drive out to the OHC/Midtown for Dave's or Aldi's. Didn't realize Dollar Stores have low cost grocery sections. Of course some people will stay with Heinen's for meats etc but for many other items, cross the street to Target in the Huntington Bldg for pretty much anything else. So downtown Cleveland is ready to add a low cost grocery store in its core, let alone across the street from Heinen's. I'm sure Heinen's welcomes the direct competition then, since according to you, a downtown Target won't change Heinen's current competition existing in midtown, OC. The more options the better! Guess it's time to directly undercut downtown Heinen's. Edited June 17, 20195 yr by Oxford19
June 17, 20195 yr ^just to note that the presence of a Target probably will have no effect on Heinen's. As part of the redeveloping Lower East Side in New York there's a Target and a Trader Joe's in the same building-- http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
June 17, 20195 yr 23 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said: ^just to note that the presence of a Target probably will have no effect on Heinen's. As part of the redeveloping Lower East Side in New York there's a Target and a Trader Joe's in the same building-- Downtown Cleveland isn’t the lower east side. We’re not even sure if Heinens is profitable yet. Any competition or duplication of services will probably hurt. If Target was actually a possibility I’d take it any day over Heinens. Ideally both would be able to survive though.
June 17, 20195 yr Just now, JSC216 said: Downtown Cleveland isn’t the lower east side. We’re not even sure if Heinens is profitable yet. Any competition or duplication of services will probably hurt. If Target was actually a possibility I’d take it any day over Heinens. Ideally both would be able to survive though. Right, cuz Heinen's took a big risk coming into downtown Cleveland and all I'm stating is that I don't know if competing with a Target is even fair to them at this point. Currently it will take a toll on Heinen's. Ideally, both would be able to survive...down the road as downtown Cleveland attracts more and more residents, visitors, and workers. A Marshall's or something similar to it would work currently, provided the market is established enough for these types of retailers. It's all coming in (hopefully) eventually though in the end.
June 18, 20195 yr I have no idea how reliable this is, but someone told me Heinen's pulled the trigger when they thought they could earn back their investment within 2 years. In reality, it only took them 6 months. I think the downtown Heinen's is doing just fine.
June 18, 20195 yr 17 hours ago, JSC216 said: Downtown Cleveland isn’t the lower east side. We’re not even sure if Heinens is profitable yet. Any competition or duplication of services will probably hurt. If Target was actually a possibility I’d take it any day over Heinens. Ideally both would be able to survive though. There's a Kroger and an urban-format Target a couple blocks from each other near UC in Cincy.
June 18, 20195 yr I think urban core population density is key for any type of retail, especially retail that would be in competition with one another. NYC is able to make a trader Joe and target work in the same building because NYC population density plus the amount of tourists are insane. Competition in retail isn't inheritently bad. It's good for the consumers and at times for the business themselves. That's why you can drive to any wealthy suburb and see a target next to a Walmart next to a Kroger next to an Aldi. Increasing residential density and adding an influx of wealthy residents is key for urban retail. Retail wants two things: Consistent foot traffic, and shoppers with spending power. Like it or not, they don't want to cater to the mom, with 3 kids who is living off social welfare and is making $10.00 an hour at the Wendy's across the street.
June 18, 20195 yr 3 hours ago, smimes said: I have no idea how reliable this is, but someone told me Heinen's pulled the trigger when they thought they could earn back their investment within 2 years. In reality, it only took them 6 months. I think the downtown Heinen's is doing just fine. Not entirely spot on but close... They budgeted for spending two years in the red... and they are profitable right now. However, the purely "grocery" section of the store is not, as of yet. Rather, the prepared foods sections essentially subsidize the rest of Heinen's for the time being, though the grocery has done incrementally better every quarter.
June 18, 20195 yr 6 hours ago, Robuu said: There's a Kroger and an urban-format Target a couple blocks from each other near UC in Cincy. The discussion is downtown Cleveland so the comparison to UC-Clifton area of Cincy is misplaced. Is there a Kroger and City Target in downtown Cincy? Please keep an answer to ''downtown'' Cincy and not that Greater Downtown Cincy stuff.
June 18, 20195 yr 4 hours ago, YABO713 said: Not entirely spot on but close... They budgeted for spending two years in the red... and they are profitable right now. However, the purely "grocery" section of the store is not, as of yet. Rather, the prepared foods sections essentially subsidize the rest of Heinen's for the time being, though the grocery has done incrementally better every quarter. and Heinen's downtown has been open over 4 years now...and the ''grocery'' section of the store is not profitable, though it is improving. Without even knowing this profit info, I thought a downtown City Target, especially in the Huntington Bldg, would undercut Heinen's. A City Target would derail any potential profits for Heinen's grocery section, thereby placing more pressure on its ''prepared food'' sections to subsidize the whole location. It's not a good time for a low cost grocer (Target) to open downtown at this time. Heinen's grocery sales would tank pretty much immediately. Edited June 18, 20195 yr by Oxford19
June 18, 20195 yr As a counterpoint, many businesses try to co-locate to draw a wider audience than could be had from a store on its own. Regional malls are a good example. The auto mile in Bedford is another. Bedford alone cannot support that many auto dealerships, but together those auto dealerships create a destination in their own right and draw a larger shopping audience from further away.
June 18, 20195 yr Just now, CbusTransit said: As a counterpoint, many businesses try to co-locate to draw a wider audience than could be had from a store on its own. Regional malls are a good example. The auto mile in Bedford is another. Bedford alone cannot support that many auto dealerships, but together those auto dealerships create a destination in their own right and draw a larger shopping audience from further away. Hmm, making downtown Cleveland a ''grocery'' destination? That's a new one...
June 18, 20195 yr 7 hours ago, YABO713 said: Not entirely spot on but close... They budgeted for spending two years in the red... and they are profitable right now. However, the purely "grocery" section of the store is not, as of yet. Rather, the prepared foods sections essentially subsidize the rest of Heinen's for the time being, though the grocery has done incrementally better every quarter. Isn't the prepared foods part of the business plan as a whole?
June 19, 20195 yr There are 500 apartments coming online just east of Heinen's (Athlon, Euclid Grant, Lumen). And there are nearly 800 apartments coming online soon on Lower Euclid Avenue (Beacon, May Co, Terminal Tower complex). That should work out to about 2,000 new residents. So while the market right now probably couldn't support two full-service grocery stores, it might be able to do so soon. And if a City Target goes anywhere, then Public Square would seem to be a good fit. Let's not forget there's 80,000 square feet of retail waiting to be filled in the May Company. I think a City Target there would dramatically ignite the retail scene in/around Public Square and Lower Euclid. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 26, 20195 yr New York & Company is moving in the old J Crew space at Beachwood. I can't remember if they were already there and are relocating or just new there in general.
June 27, 20195 yr They are not currently in Beachwood Place. Closest would be Mentor or Southpark. Glad to see a new namebrand chain going in there after some of their recent losses to Pinecrest.
June 27, 20195 yr I wonder if they have anything up their sleeves to stop the slide? They have three good anchors and unique stores, but every shopping center around them that is still viable has either been built new, or added something lifestyle/entertainment oriented to keep themselves fresh. BP had something planned a few years ago, but dropped those plans.
June 27, 20195 yr 2 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said: I wonder if they have anything up their sleeves to stop the slide? They have three good anchors and unique stores, but every shopping center around them that is still viable has either been built new, or added something lifestyle/entertainment oriented to keep themselves fresh. BP had something planned a few years ago, but dropped those plans. A good thing for Beachwood Place to do is to create a type of hybrid that Polaris in Columbus did, a mini lifestyle center outside the mall. Heck even putting a Dave and Busters type venue would work since all of those type of venues (besides round 1) is on the west. Having large stores accessible from the outside like Polaris has with the Forever 21, Dave and Busters, etc. would add a different energy BUT could definitely hinder Legacy Village even more. It's tricky.
June 28, 20195 yr They had the plan to do a set of outdoor stores along the side between Saks and Nordstrom where Zara is now. Lets not forget how big of a win Zara is for the mall (first in Ohio, one of the first in a midsized city). Capital Grille was supposed to go there but switched to Legacy, and I guarantee Pinecrest killed the rest of that expansion plan. There is a plan for a zoning change to be put before voters in Beachwood for the mall property, possibly later this year which would allow for residential, office, recreation so they can go in more of that hybrid mall-lifestyle center plan. Now that La Place is part of the same shopping center, I would like to see more done to connect it better with the main mall building.
June 28, 20195 yr Some interesting hints at the CRE summit this morning, with a couple of the speakers (Mike Deemer of DCA and Steve Taylor of CBRE/Retail Group) saying that there could be announcements in the next few weeks or months that some of the downtown building conversions (ie May Co., Centennial, etc) will have national retailers. Taylor said downtown needs 30,000 residents to attract national retailers. Deemer said downtown is on track to get 30,000 residents by 2030. But Taylor said if downtown included Ohio City, and it should, it would have 30,000 residents already. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 28, 20195 yr 11 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: A good thing for Beachwood Place to do is to create a type of hybrid that Polaris in Columbus did, a mini lifestyle center outside the mall. Heck even putting a Dave and Busters type venue would work since all of those type of venues (besides round 1) is on the west. Having large stores accessible from the outside like Polaris has with the Forever 21, Dave and Busters, etc. would add a different energy BUT could definitely hinder Legacy Village even more. It's tricky. This is what I believe is in mind for Beachwood Place by its owners, the same as this property, which is in the northern ("affluent") suburbs of Chicago. It blends outdoor stores with apartments, hotels and restaurants. That is why I believe Beachwood is seeking the rezoning in advance and why nothing has yet replaced Maggiano's and The Pub. https://patch.com/illinois/northbrook/proposed-northbrook-court-revamp-razes-macys-adds-apartments
June 28, 20195 yr 50 minutes ago, KJP said: Some interesting hints at the CRE summit this morning, with a couple of the speakers (Mike Deemer of DCA and Steve Taylor of CBRE/Retail Group) saying that there could be announcements in the next few weeks or months that some of the downtown building conversions (ie May Co., Centennial, etc) will have national retailers. Taylor said downtown needs 30,000 residents to attract national retailers. Deemer said downtown is on track to get 30,000 residents by 2030. But Taylor said if downtown included Ohio City, and it should, it would have 30,000 residents already. There is no doubt in my mind that for purposes of retail Ohio City should be considered part of downtown....no brainer. And another reason to get moving on the transformative Irishtown Bend project (I know I sound like a broken record) as it will only further seamlessly connect downtown and OC.
July 26, 20195 yr After visiting downtown malls in Ottawa and Montreal last week, I am more bummed out than ever that Tower City cannot make retail work. The Rideau Centre in Ottawa (Ottawa is much closer in size to Cleveland than Montreal) recently underwent an extensive renovation and expansion and is very impressive for any city. I know Ottawa receives many more tourists than Cleveland because it is Canada's capital but there are many similarities as well. During the cold winters it is even more used than in summer. If tower city was properly redeveloped for retail with stores that fit the Cleveland demographic, I have no doubt it would succeed with the urban core growing, no matter how big online shopping gets. I love the tech hub idea but there are so many other buildings where this could go, such as a joint venture with the "medical mart", since they will have a lot of open space in the near future. https://www.cfshops.com/rideau-centre.html?cid=lis_rid_en_hp_gb
July 26, 20195 yr Although I'd love it if Tower City had real retail (other than Brooks Brothers), I don't think you can fault Forest City or their targeted demographics. I think the bottom line is that retail is tough (and constantly shrinking) everywhere. When it opened, Tower City had three levels that went from luxury on the top (e.g. Barney's, Fendi), to "upscale" on the second level (Banana Republic, J. Crew), to the Gap and Footlocker on the lower level. They all left. Tower City is a big mall, with 367,000 square feet of retail. By comparison, if you exclude the anchors, Beachwood Place has 398,000. Here's Beachwood's latest addition, which looks like it was stolen from Tower City. Pretty much says it all.
July 26, 20195 yr Everyone is losing their downtown department stores. Indy lost its Carson's, Pittsburgh lost its Kaufmanns and Saks, Cincinnati lost its Macy's and Macy's is HEADQUARTERED in Cincinnati. They're even starting to close in markets that can theoretically support them, like the high-profile closure of Lord and Taylor in Manhattan recently. It's less to do with leadership and more to do with the fact that department stores everywhere are dying, downtown or otherwise. “To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”
July 26, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, ydard said: Although I'd love it if Tower City had real retail (other than Brooks Brothers), I don't think you can fault Forest City or their targeted demographics. I think the bottom line is that retail is tough (and constantly shrinking) everywhere. When it opened, Tower City had three levels that went from luxury on the top (e.g. Barney's, Fendi), to "upscale" on the second level (Banana Republic, J. Crew), to the Gap and Footlocker on the lower level. They all left. Tower City is a big mall, with 367,000 square feet of retail. By comparison, if you exclude the anchors, Beachwood Place has 398,000. Here's Beachwood's latest addition, which looks like it was stolen from Tower City. Pretty much says it all. I know I'm beating a dead horse, the amount of retail space and malls (Legacy village, south park, crocker park, even recently Pinecrest and I think I forgot 1 or 2 others) have increased even as our county population decreased!
July 26, 20195 yr 2 minutes ago, ydard said: When Tower City opened, Higbee's WAS open. And so was the May Company. Higbees/Dillards was there into the early 2000s.
July 27, 20195 yr 5 hours ago, Terdolph said: Tower city would have done fine with a department store anchor in the Higbee building. It could have happened here, like in other cities with downtown department stores with some leadership from city hall. We are suffering in so many ways from the last four terms. The really depressing thing is that if you look at who is electable, I am not sure things will be any better. I don't think you can blame Mike White, Jane Campbell or Frank Jackson on the department stores and other retail leaving downtown. Unless you think they should've offered subsidies to jeep them open. May Co closed in '92 around the time all the local stores became Kaufman's. Dillards closed the downtown store and Randall Park in 2001, which seems like more of an internal closing underperforming stores thing. The rest of the retail gradually became less and less upscale. I feel like all the retail that stayed in downtown and tower city were essentially remnants of a time gone by. All the new developments are like new growth in a forest after a forest fire. It's been mentioned hundreds of times across multiple topics in this forum, but I will say it again: downtown needs more residents to support retail. We are getting there, but are not there yet. In downtown's retail heyday, there were no malls. Downtown was it. Today there are malls and online shopping so downtown retail is difficult and given the retail climate nationally, no retailer thinking strategically and competitively from a business standpoint is going to set up shop where there are not enough customers, or where there is no proven success story. If H&M (or similar) were to open and do well as the population downtown continues to swell, you may see more national and local retailers try again downtown.
July 27, 20195 yr if there is not one, it seems like there needs to be a retail forum... Edited July 27, 20195 yr by lockdog
July 27, 20195 yr Yes there is a Cleveland retail thread. However it seems that every thread becomes a retail thread at some point.... ? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 27, 20195 yr 8 hours ago, KJP said: Yes there is a Cleveland retail thread. However it seems that every thread becomes a retail thread at some point.... ? Very true...and impressive given the industry is dying!
July 27, 20195 yr Since this is been moved to the retail thread, I had some interesting chats in the last couple of days with several consultants who work with developers. They seem to think that downtown/Ohio City is getting close to the tipping point for adding some actual urban core retail. They lamented that it hasn't happened yet, and believed that downtown is underserved by retail while the eastern submarket is overserved by retail. They believed that things will balance out eventually as downtown, Ohio City and Tremont continue to add more housing units with most residents having medium to high disposable incomes. There seems to be a line of humor emerging among developers as they are encouraged to have an active street presence to their buildings, meaning some "retail" frontage. But in Cleveland, "retail" invariably means "restaurant" -- or at least it will until the retail market ratchets up with the residential market. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 27, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Since this is been moved to the retail thread, I had some interesting chats in the last couple of days with several consultants who work with developers. They seem to think that downtown/Ohio City is getting close to the tipping point for adding some actual urban core retail. They lamented that it hasn't happened yet, and believed that downtown is underserved by retail while the eastern submarket is overserved by retail. They believed that things will balance out eventually as downtown, Ohio City and Tremont continue to add more housing units with most residents having medium to high disposable incomes. There seems to be a line of humor emerging among developers as they are encouraged to have an active street presence to their buildings, meaning some "retail" frontage. But in Cleveland, "retail" invariably means "restaurant" -- or at least it will until the retail market ratchets up with the residential market. A big hurdle is how disconnected Ohio City, Tremont, and downtown are from each other. They are all sort of their own little island and for the most part require a set of wheels to travel between. Downtown would be a natural retail center if these neighborhoods bled directly into downtown, but there are some major barriers that prevent this from ever happening. It’s a big retail hurdle to overcome, especially in a downtown that has very little retail to begin with.
July 27, 20195 yr 10 minutes ago, JSC216 said: A big hurdle is how disconnected Ohio City, Tremont, and downtown are from each other. They are all sort of their own little island and for the most part require a set of wheels to travel between. Downtown would be a natural retail center if these neighborhoods bled directly into downtown, but there are some major barriers that prevent this from ever happening. It’s a big retail hurdle to overcome, especially in a downtown that has very little retail to begin with. I've mentioned the Delmar Loop (St Louis ) on other threads. Here again is another opportunity for these neighborhood leaders to put their heads together with private developers and invest in a streetcar linking all 3 neighborhoods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_Trolley
July 28, 20195 yr 15 hours ago, Cleburger said: Very true...and impressive given the industry is dying! i wouldn't say dying exactly, more like changing rapidly --- and much of it moving online. if you live in an apt bldg, you see this change, just look at all the stuff being delivered nowadays -- ha. so maybe expect retail fronts to be much more dynamic, with a lot of turnover, instead of shops sitting in place for years. flexible leases, more pop ups and the like. it would seem smaller developers need to build out very flexible spaces that are well wired, with good plumbing, etc.. it's hard to say where its all headed of course, but for certain this is where we are at this point in time.
July 28, 20195 yr 27 minutes ago, Terdolph said: The funny thing is that back in the 30's through 50's the big downtown department stores did deliver. Actually through the 60s and well into the 70s. They had their own distinctive fleet of trucks (at least Higbees's and Halle's did) and you use to always see them plowing through the neighborhood. My mom was a downtown "power shopper" (at least once every couple of weeks wearing her heels and gloves) and I was dragged along with the promise of lunch at the Silver Grill or Geranium Room. When ever she bought something the sales person always asked if she would like it delivered or would she take it with her. She would spend the whole day shopping and would hardly carry anythnig on the bus ride home. Then the next day or so the packages would arrive.
July 28, 20195 yr 2 hours ago, Htsguy said: Actually through the 60s and well into the 70s. They had their own distinctive fleet of trucks (at least Higbees's and Halle's did) and you use to always see them plowing through the neighborhood. My mom was a downtown "power shopper" (at least once every couple of weeks wearing her heels and gloves) and I was dragged along with the promise of lunch at the Silver Grill or Geranium Room. When ever she bought something the sales person always asked if she would like it delivered or would she take it with her. She would spend the whole day shopping and would hardly carry anythnig on the bus ride home. Then the next day or so the packages would arrive. Proto-Amazon!
July 28, 20195 yr 2 hours ago, Htsguy said: Actually through the 60s and well into the 70s. They had their own distinctive fleet of trucks (at least Higbees's and Halle's did) and you use to always see them plowing through the neighborhood. My mom was a downtown "power shopper" (at least once every couple of weeks wearing her heels and gloves) and I was dragged along with the promise of lunch at the Silver Grill or Geranium Room. When ever she bought something the sales person always asked if she would like it delivered or would she take it with her. She would spend the whole day shopping and would hardly carry anythnig on the bus ride home. Then the next day or so the packages would arrive. Proto-Amazon!
July 28, 20195 yr 5 hours ago, Terdolph said: The funny thing is that back in the 30's through 50's the big downtown department stores did deliver. They also had "personal shoppers" - Halle's Miss Treaster (no idea if that was her real name) knew the whole family by name and size and would call with shopping suggestions and special bargains. She was much nicer than a robocall. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
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