"New and unique"... :roll: How about retaining (oops!) or re-attracting stores that most people with a modest amount of disposable income would actually patronize? I mean, sure - I suppose I could go get an airbrushed T-shirt, some "kicks" for that day I decide I can "be a witness", or hell - maybe some bling for my cellphone, but christ almighty - most typical *and* atypical shopping malls manage to have a tenant mix that includes a shop or two where I might actually be willing to spend a little cash. Get it together! :whip:

^

Amen MayDay. I spent the better part of 2006 down there working on a project for a certain paint mfg. company and wanted desperately to spend money at the stores in TC. A 40 year old guy can only browse the racks at the GAP (it was still open then) so often before they start to look at you funny!

I was afraid the Godiva closing was foreshadowing for something along these lines. It really saddens me to see how far Tower City has fallen. Calling Dunkin' Donuts non-traditional is quite a stretch. Take a trip to Boston, there's a Dunkin' every other store front.

Non-traditional as in a shopping mall. Usually these are store fronts or stand alone structures.

How long can this go on before TC completely has to close or becomes a ridic. shell like the Galleria? 

 

I have said for years the only thing that's going to save Tower City is if we turned it into an outlet mall (like Lodi Outlets).  People drive for a long time to visit outlet malls - I know lots of people who make road trips to go to Grove City.  You have to offer something unique that people can't get by going to their local mall.  And "upscale" is not it; you can get that at Beachwood.  And "normal" retailers like Gap and AT is not it either since they are in most every mall.  Making it an outlet mall would be unique and would bring people in from both the burbs and out of town.

Interesting idea, but would outlets open there?

 

(very unfamiliar with how those operations work)

I know jack about whether or not it could work there from the perspective of actually doing it, I'm just saying I think it's a great concepts.  I am full of great concepts but not so much the wherewithal to make things happen.  Creative types, you know how we are.

 

My other "great idea" is about turning downtown into a "rock and roll" city with re-naming the streets after rock legends and opening up music-related stores, like places you could go and cut your own single doing karaoke, more music-themed bars and restaurants (perhaps focusing on different types of music), thrift stores that scream rock and roll or punk like Screaming Mimi's, etc.

Interesting idea, but would outlets open there?

 

(very unfamiliar with how those operations work)

 

Outlets are like "low cost carriers" I think the rent at TC is too high for an outlet to open or to make it an outlet center.

 

Also - and I can't say this with a straight face - but TC is looking for high priced traditional mall shoppers.  Yet they can't attract or maintain any stores.  Irony at its best!

Interesting idea, but would outlets open there?

 

(very unfamiliar with how those operations work)

 

Outlets are like "low cost carriers" I think the rent at TC is too high for an outlet to open or to make it an outlet center.

 

Also - and I can't say this with a straight face - but TC is looking for high priced traditional mall shoppers.  Yet they can't attract or maintain any stores.  Irony at its best!

 

Setting the rent too high is like cutting the nose off to spite the face.  I would think being realistic and doing what's necessary to get bodies in there spending money regularly would be more important than gouging people for rent.  But maybe that's why I don't own a business.

Interesting idea, but would outlets open there?

 

(very unfamiliar with how those operations work)

 

Outlets are like "low cost carriers" I think the rent at TC is too high for an outlet to open or to make it an outlet center.

 

Also - and I can't say this with a straight face - but TC is looking for high priced traditional mall shoppers.  Yet they can't attract or maintain any stores.  Irony at its best!

 

Setting the rent too high is like cutting the nose off to spite the face.  I would think being realistic and doing what's necessary to get bodies in there spending money regularly would be more important than gouging people for rent.  But maybe that's why I don't own a business.

 

thats a great point.  and many good post have been listed in this thread.  look back.

 

the one GLARING fact is neither you nor I manage tower city.  They don't know how to manage a mall.  I've said it before they should have had Westfield or Simon manage the mall.  We wouldnt be in this boat today!

My other "great idea" is about turning downtown into a "rock and roll" city with re-naming the streets after rock legends and opening up music-related stores, like places you could go and cut your own single doing karaoke, more music-themed bars and restaurants (perhaps focusing on different types of music), thrift stores that scream rock and roll or punk like Screaming Mimi's, etc.

Bring back Record Rendezvous & Swingos!

My other "great idea" is about turning downtown into a "rock and roll" city with re-naming the streets after rock legends and opening up music-related stores, like places you could go and cut your own single doing karaoke, more music-themed bars and restaurants (perhaps focusing on different types of music), thrift stores that scream rock and roll or punk like Screaming Mimi's, etc.

Bring back Record Rendezvous & Swingos!

 

Don't forget HOUGH BAKERY & Higbee's!  I know that "d word" company purchased Higbee's but I want pure unmerged Higbee's back!!  :whip:

This may be off topic for the current thread, but it seems to me that a major problem with downtown retail in general is that downtown has a difficult time attracting female shoppers.  If you look at the three stores that are closing - two womens clothing stores and the Body Shop.  These stores generally cater exclusively to female shoppers.  (I really don't want this discussion to become a gender bias issue, etc.)  If you look at men's clothing stores and shoe stores, there are several downtown that appear to be doing well.  In the PD article they mentioned Brooks Brothers as doing fine, which I always thought catered more to male shoppers than female shoppers.  There are men's clothing and shoe stores scattered around the downtown area in the Huntington building, across from the Wyndham hotel, on St Clair, in the Warehouse District, Tower City, Euclid Ave. near CSU, and I think even in Galleria, to mention a few.  :?

Nor does it cater to Gay Men.  Good shoping and restaurants usually go hand-and-hand with gay men.  Lets face it, TC aint sexy to a gay shopper.

 

 

Ann Taylor and the Body Shop would have done just fine if they weren't the only main stream stores!  Not that I know anything about the retail business but if we filled TC with stores that don't exist here between NYC and Chicago (don't even mention Somerset  :whip:), I'm sure we'd get some people from Westlake, Strongsville, Beachwood AND Pittsburgh and Columbus too.  A decent amount of people  work downtown and an even more decent amount of people who want more selection and quality than the stores MayDay listed above live downtown/OC/Tremont and other nearby neighborhoods.  I know we're all preaching to the choir but when does the point come where FC or whoever comes along and says, "hmmm...Young professionals-or professionals for that matter-or the very eclectic groups of individuals who work/live in our cool neighborhoods might not like shopping/window shopping at Brooks Brothers or Forever 21 or a tacky 1990's furniture store or so and so's fashions or a dollar store ALL OF THE TIME..."  Gee, I wonder why we're forced to drive to the suburbs... Combining an upscale or even middle class mall with a public transportation hub will probably present some 'problems' but it's nothing that a security guard in each store couldn't handle.  Shops all over Europe have guards--even in the nicest neighborhoods. 

 

I don't get it...That space is so beautiful and would kick any malls in downtown Chicago @ss.  If we had a dime for every person that works/live in/near downtown saying, "I wish TC had nicer/relevant shops b/c I'd always shop there", I'm sure we could franchise (or w/e the correct term is) a dozen right now! Even if stores closed at 7, I'm sure it'd be packed on lunch hours and weekends.

 

I know we'll probably see an influx of retailers in the next few (fingers crossed) years but the entertainment and restaurants need their retail counterparts to really make downtown a destination and make the inner city self-sustaining.  It's the biggest missing puzzle piece and most obvious yet...

FYI - Tower City opened as a "upscale mall" and that didn't work either.

Cle2032, as a major league shopaholic.  I couldn't have said that better myself.  You just brought a tear to my eye.

 

I'm all vaklempt now.  Talk amongst yourselves.  Here, I'll give you a topic.  The Avenue at Tower City:  Neither an avenue, nor a tower, and definitely not a city.  Discuss!

FYI there have been numerous posts regarding the departure of many of the upscale stores--many internal corporate issues AND the dynamic of OC/Tremont and Downtown is much different today than 17 years ago!  We were still shaking the rust off!  There was no E.4th/WHD/Gateway, Indians/Browns shared a crappy stadium isolated from downtown with no amenities nearby, the Cavs played 30 miles away, Playhouse Square was "brand new", CSU was a commuter college to a T, and were OC/Tremont as "cool" as they are now? 

 

"Cleveland" will have its 3rd Sephora opening soon (Southpark).  Now, Sephoras are everywhere and they don't make or break cities but it shows that we're looking for more options-in terms of service, quality, ATMOSPHERE than what you'd find at CVS or Walmart.  Point being, we've seen a handful of retailers enter the market (at a slow pace) recently going to show that this isn't 1980s/90s "muni stadium" Cleveland. 

 

Our tastebuds have changed and we're becoming quite notorious for hot dining spots in North America.  I don't think we'll surpass Paris, Milan or NYC in terms of fashion but we're not outlet mall material either.   

 

Our tastebuds have changed and we're becoming quite notorious for hot dining spots in North America.  I don't think we'll surpass Paris, Milan or NYC in terms of fashion but we're not outlet mall material either.  

 

I love you!

Oh geez, I didn't mean outlet mall as some kind of slight.  I wasn't aware this was how outlet malls are viewed.  All the women I work with regularly take field trips to outlet malls and they are upscale shoppers who buy designer purses, etc.  I haven't been to one in a long time but I never got the impression it was something negative.  Do others feel that way?  It really wasn't an insult; I thought it was a good suggestion.

Understood cle2032, it needs to have the right "mix", simply being upscale will not work.

sorry, I wasn't referring to your post directly!  :-)  While I'd really rather see TC stay as it is than go outlet, my reference to outlet mall was directed more along the lines of maybe not Gucci or Prada flagships in TC, but something that isn't at Beachwood or Parmatown.

Oh geez, I didn't mean outlet mall as some kind of slight.  I wasn't aware this was how outlet malls are viewed.  All the women I work with regularly take field trips to outlet malls and they are upscale shoppers who buy designer purses, etc.  I haven't been to one in a long time but I never got the impression it was something negative.  Do others feel that way?  It really wasn't an insult; I thought it was a good suggestion.

 

It depends on what stores are at said outlet and WHERE (meaning what level of store) the merchandise they receive has come from.  

 

In Cleveland, outlets and stores like TX Saxx are good.  In metro NYC, the outlets with exception to one suck and stores like TJ Maxx, Burlington, Marshalls are horrible.  Where as in Metro Cleveland you can find some really good pieces in a discount retailer, etc.

^^^I have to agree with both opinions - I think re-tenanting Tower City with entirely outlet stores would cheapen the atmosphere even further.

 

However, I think if they had a balance of "better" outlet stores (yes, such things exist) alongside a mix of mainstream stores, that would be something that could work. It would also be more of a resource for people to patronize everyday.

 

As much as I'd love to see Barneys, Varvatos, etc. - besides MTS, who on this forum routinely drops $200+ for a pair of jeans, or $500 on a pair of shoes with enough *frequency* that that level of high-end shopping in Tower City would be sustainable? I'm not saying that such people don't exist, but I'll go so far as to say they don't exist in Cleveland in enough numbers to make it worthwhile for the luxury retailers.

With the disclaimer that I'm totally naive in the business aspects of retail -- going outlet malls certainly sounds like an interesting suggestion to me, anyway. Or at least a big Target.

^^^I have to agree with both opinions - I think re-tenanting Tower City with entirely outlet stores would cheapen the atmosphere even further.

 

However, I think if they had a balance of "better" outlet stores (yes, such things exist) alongside a mix of mainstream stores, that would be something that could work. It would also be more of a resource for people to patronize everyday.

 

As much as I'd love to see Barneys, Varvatos, etc. - besides MTS, who on this forum routinely drops $200+ for a pair of jeans, or $500 on a pair of shoes with enough *frequency* that that level of high-end shopping in Tower City would be sustainable? I'm not saying that such people don't exist, but I'll go so far as to say they don't exist in Cleveland in enough numbers to make it worthwhile for the luxury retailers.

 

Thank you MayDay. :wink:

 

and if those shoppers do exist, they go to beachwood currently. However, we must remember that when "the avenue" opened, it set Beachwood back.

 

I think there are enough shoppers in Cleveland for a good mix of luxury (Barneys, Neiman Marcus, Dolce), high end (D&G, Bloomingdales, Nordstrom, Emporio Armani, Pottery Barn, William-Sonoma), general (Swatch, Banana Republic, Armani Exchange, Cole Hann) everyday (the Gap, American Eagle, Ab/Fi,), those are just some examples. 

 

The problem is that TowerCity doesn't have enough juice to manage a mall, like Simon or Westfield.  I have a feeling once the ECP is complete and some of the stand alone store front properties come online, we'll see a return to street shopping on Euclid/Prospect/Huron.  Stores want to be bunched together.  So if store ABDH&I are in a mall, stores CEL&M with similar mall demographics will want to be there.

Come on mild winter!!!  Let's hope Mr. Groundhog doesn't see his shadow!

 

Tale of two upscale centers Crocker Park is on top

Thursday, January 24, 2008

By Bryan Story

 

While Crocker Park in Westlake is thriving and looking to expand, about 10 miles east on Detroit Road Rocky River's Beachcliff Market Square, another upscale shopping center, is working hard to keep up.

 

The latest Crocker Park expansion is under way and could be complete as early as this summer.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

Supposedly Panera Bread has closed in Tower City as well. I'm not sure how, as it was always jammed when I went there. But then again so was my favorite salad bar in the food court until they jacked the rent unreasonably high according to the manager. Again, I know nothing about maintaining a retail space, but this strikes me as just absurdly stupid.

Huh? I was just in Tower City a week ago and Panera was open. You sure about this?

I would like to know if this is accurate as well.  My co-workers and I were just discussing Tower City the other day and I just told them about Panera, so I hope I relayed accurate information.  That being said, everyone is wondering what is going to happen to this space. So many closings and not much going in, I mean, does anyone have any insight or thoughts about what's really going to happen?  We speculate about what we'd like to do with the space but really what are the plans?  Or are there any plans?

I was at work all weekend and wanted some Panera for lunch on Saturday but it was gone! :-o

 

Maybe/hopefully there's a conspiracy going on to make everyone leave so that they can rent all of the spaces out to new stores-such as the ones mentioned early in this thread!!!   :wink:   One could only hope!

 

Just think if they move fast, we could have the reborn Tower City ready for the '08 holiday season! :clap: :clap: :clap:

If I had the money to buy the Avenue at TowerCity, you kids would have the mall of all malls!

 

Don't even get me started on what I would do if I had the money to buy/lease every store from from MayCo to Halles on Euclid and Prospect!  It would be a Queens paradise!

 

Shopping....shopping...and even more fab-u-lous shopping!

I haven't seen it with my own eyes, but it's been confirmed by several sources (including cle2032 now I guess). Apparently they just vanished like a fart in the wind. Should we start a TC death pool or is that too macabre at this point (my money is on Johnston & Murphy).

i could write a book on all the reasons tower city has come to this point. Whichever you think comes first, chicken or egg... TC chose the wrong one. When that place opened downtown was rather abysmal. Very few actually lived down here, there was no real warehouse district, euclid avenue was in shambles, public square was (still) over run with homeless.  Tower City opened with a couple new office buildings nearby and that was it.  Unfortunately I think if that venue were to open now, it would be a huge success, continuing the current momentum.  As it is, there's hardly anything left inside.  I have no idea how you rectify it now.  I mean even if the medical mart and convention center were attached, with a burgeoning downtown residential population, how do you convince upscale retailers to move into a space next to an airbrushed t-shirt store... or a dollar store.  It makes me sick, this actually keeps me up sometimes at night.  And if Brooks Brothers and Johnston and Murphy fold i will be beside myself.  The thought of having to consistently go to legacy or CP every time i need something kills me.

egads, Panera too?

 

I wonder if TC's rents are still out of control relative to the market (which was very much the case circa 2000-2005 and a contributor to your J. Crews, BRs and the likes leaving)

Ok I'm serious, does anyone think that by letting TC hit rock bottom, this will allow it to rebound?  If Panera can't cut it, then I highly doubt the random perfume shop or leather store or fashions by whoever will make it.  It sucks thinking about an EMPTY TC b/c even though it's not what it was 15 years ago, it's never been empty but maybe this is a good thing in the long run. 

 

I'm hoping this is the case...

 

Oh, and does anyone else think it's funny that there isn't one streetfront McDonalds or DD downtown?  I mean these are staples in any downtown setting and whether or not you eat there, it adds some activity and color to the streetscape.

Isn't there a DD  on Euclid in the Colonial Arcade.  But I get your point.

There are a few Starbucks...

^There was, but I believe the owner lost the franchise - it's now "Double Donuts" - whatev.

Hahaha .. better than Kennedy Fried Chicken here in the city.

Seems that Forest City is booting out long time tenants in other properties around the city:

VIA: http://joanofohio.blogspot.com/

 

Does anyone really know why in Parma Town so many shops are closing? I saw the demise of Pier One which had been in the same location for over 17 years. Jennifer Convertible closed its doors last month and now Maxell’s which had been at the Plaza for 46 years. A lot of local people worked at these establishments and retail is overwhelming staffed by women. Many of these women worked in that location because it was close to home and allowed them the flexibility to still take care of their children, aging parents or pursue their studies at nearby Tri-C.  None of these women made a lot of money. The clientele of Maxell’s overwhelmingly consisted of senior ladies often accompanied by a daughter or grand-daughter. These old ladies looked forward to their Saturday morning beauty session. I went there because they offered many services at reasonable prices. It was a local institution, a lot of women in Parma and Parma Heights went to Maxell’s.

 

The Parma area is heavily populated but has few conveniences. Why is Forest City pushing tenants out the door? An employee of Pier One confided in me, prior to closing their doors, that their sales volume was very good but that the landlord kept increasing the rent till they had no choice but to close. Maxell’s was a successful salon; it was heavily patronized with a loyal clientele. It appeared to be a successful and profitable local business.

 

Why is it then, that the city counsel is allowing this institutionalized eviction? Is there a master plan to reclaim this valuable land to build yet more lucrative office facilities for the nearby Parma Hospital? Forest City has not offered any public explanation but someone at City Hall must know what is happening in this community and must have good reasons to keep mute.

Oh, and does anyone else think it's funny that there isn't one streetfront McDonalds or DD downtown?  I mean these are staples in any downtown setting and whether or not you eat there, it adds some activity and color to the streetscape.

 

there used to be a couple of fast food storefronts downtown - wendys, arbys and mcdonalds, for example, but i'm sure there were others.

 

my understanding was that the operating cost was too high for basically a lunch crowd, and that they needed a full time security person to move along the homeless or troublemakers at other times of the day.  in the foodcourt setting, the security costs are shared/included, along with restrooms, maintenance, etc.

 

i agree that it's a missing piece that would (or should) add activity to the street.

 

i also think that the big cleveland headquartered companies need to make a street presence in downtown - a sherwin williams innovation center/flagship store open to the public, an american greetings flagship store or kiosks at tourist areas where you could send an electronic card, perhaps a return of stouffers/nestle to downtown with a restaurant or culinary innovation center.

 

does anyone have any idea on what terms forest city is leasing the TC spaces - base rent per square foot, % of sales?  i was shocked to see panera closed.

Some have speculated that high rents are driving tenants out of TC. What seems odd about that is the lower end stores that are replacing them are somehow paying the rent. Something doesn't add up.

does anyone have any idea on what terms forest city is leasing the TC spaces - base rent per square foot, % of sales?  i was shocked to see panera closed.

 

I know i've posted this multiple times....

 

J. Crew did used to have a % of sale agreement.

IIRC, The Disney Store had the 2nd highest rent, outside of NYC for a disney store.

 

I know sales aren't always great in TC (especially compared to their suburban store counterparts), but high rent always seems to be a constant theme for Every store I've ever heard close there.

Why is rent so high at TC?? Is this a valid complaint? Is this simply to line the pockets of FC, or is it to make up for the renovations done to TC? Just curious. If this has been posted in an earlier thread, that's cool. Just let me know. NICELY.

Again it's this chicken/egg question.  When does the time come for FC to GIVE a little in order to GET A LOT in return?!  Jesus, you can't complain about people not shopping somewhere when there's no where to shop! :whip: :drunk:

Brigade, one of a precious few stand-alone merchandise retailers downtown, is packing it in and moving to the suburbs. Can't we have *some* retail downtown? Please?

 

E-mail received today:

 

Dear Friends, Patrons and Neighbors,

In 2001 we opened our doors for business in the Historic Warehouse

District.  As we are grateful to have made many new friends in the

process, we have come to the determination it is to our advantage that

we transfer all our business to our Coventry Brigade.  We are thrilled

with the initiative of shifting our flagship store to that area and

hope that all of you will not forget to frequently visit us at our new

spot.  To celebrate we are throwing one last party at our Downtown

Location to thank everyone for all their support.  We will be clearing

out much of the merchandise to make plenty of space so we can

celebrate in good fashion.  There will be an abundance of gaming and

good times so get your poker faces ready.  We hope you can stop by to

commemorate the occasion.  Please join us this Saturday, as we will be

celebrating late into the evening with great music provided by your

friends at Brigade.

I wish them well but I'm not surprised - on more than one occasion I was set to spend money there on my lunch break. Unfortunately, every time I stopped by, they weren't open during their posted hours. The one time they were actually open - they forgot to turn their "open/closed" sign around, and the only reason I was able to check them out was because I pulled on the door and voila - "oops, guess we should remember to turn the sign!". :roll:

 

I support my locals above all else, but they have to run their ship just like anyone else if they expect to stay afloat.

Of course, the PD will use this as another example of a "dying" Cleveland...

 

I'd never heard of Brigade until I read your message B12.

Oh geez, I didn't mean outlet mall as some kind of slight.  I wasn't aware this was how outlet malls are viewed.  All the women I work with regularly take field trips to outlet malls and they are upscale shoppers who buy designer purses, etc.  I haven't been to one in a long time but I never got the impression it was something negative.  Do others feel that way?  It really wasn't an insult; I thought it was a good suggestion.

 

It depends on what stores are at said outlet and WHERE (meaning what level of store) the merchandise they receive has come from.  

 

In Cleveland, outlets and stores like TX Saxx are good.  In metro NYC, the outlets with exception to one suck and stores like TJ Maxx, Burlington, Marshalls are horrible.  Where as in Metro Cleveland you can find some really good pieces in a discount retailer, etc.

 

i think the key to making this interesting idea work is to bring in something new, not just the same old, same old tj maxx or filenes or the common retail outlet shoppes. a century 21 or a loehmans would be a nice draw.

 

http://www.c21stores.com/#/home/

http://www.loehmanns.com/

 

i am going out on a limb, but maybe a fancy vintage shop (and the cleve already has one of the greatest in chelsea's) or a shop with a mix of vintage/new stuff might work too. screaming mimi's was a good call. stella dallas is another example. when i think of this kind of thing i think of california cities, which are chock full of mallish versions of these kinds of shops -- tc could use some californication.

 

http://www.screamingmimis.com/

http://nymag.com/listings/stores/stella-dallas/

 

last but not least the hiphop crowd would be into vim

 

http://www.vim.com/

 

it's a shame because fcr certainly has the connections & juice to bring some of these middle range ny-centric retailers to tc, but the high rents issue sounds like a big turn-off for everybody.