Then feel free to go get them an anchor.

 

snap your heels together three times, repeat, there's no place like cleveland, and POOF!

 

Anchor store, long hours, and shoppers everywhere. IT'S THAT EASY. No one needs market forces! It'll be the most successful venture EVER! Got a check?

 

I don't think they're even set up for one.  I can't remember.  Have to admit, I haven't been in there for ages.  My contention is simply that whatever the economic perils of being open normal hours, there is no other way to survive.  I'm not asking for "long" hours.  There's long, there's normal, and then there's us closing restaraunts at 3 and retail at 7.

 

Will any given store that's open normal hours succeed in downtown Cleveland?  Maybe, though not necessarily.  Will they succeed without normal hours?  No chance.

Toys R' Us was across the street from Randall.

 

Exactly.  That is not RP Mall.  Close, but that only counts in horse shoes.

Then feel free to go get them an anchor.

 

snap your heels together three times, repeat, there's no place like cleveland, and POOF!

 

Anchor store, long hours, and shoppers everywhere.  IT'S THAT EASY.  No one needs market forces! It'll be the most successful venture EVER!  Got a check?

 

I don't think they're even set up for one.  I can't remember.  Have to admit, I haven't been in there for ages.  My contention is simply that whatever the economic perils of being open normal hours, there is no other way to survive.  I'm not asking for "long" hours.  There's long, there's normal, and then there's us closing restaraunts at 3 and retail at 7.

 

Will any given store that's open normal hours succeed in downtown Cleveland?  Maybe, though not necessarily.  Will they succeed without normal hours?  No chance.

 

YOU DON'T EVEN SHOP THERE BUT YOU'RE MAKING ALL THIS NOISE?

 

YOU GREEN BACKS IN A STORE ARE ALL THAT COUNT!

Then feel free to go get them an anchor.

 

snap your heels together three times, repeat, there's no place like cleveland, and POOF!

 

Anchor store, long hours, and shoppers everywhere. IT'S THAT EASY. No one needs market forces! It'll be the most successful venture EVER! Got a check?

 

I don't think they're even set up for one. I can't remember. Have to admit, I haven't been in there for ages. My contention is simply that whatever the economic perils of being open normal hours, there is no other way to survive. I'm not asking for "long" hours. There's long, there's normal, and then there's us closing restaraunts at 3 and retail at 7.

 

Will any given store that's open normal hours succeed in downtown Cleveland? Maybe, though not necessarily. Will they succeed without normal hours? No chance.

 

1.  As Mayday pointed out earlier Galleria isn't even really a shopping mall any more.  It's practically an office park.  There are a couple "retail type" businesses in there, framers and the like, but it's not really "shopping".  The whole place would practically need redeveloped to turn it back into such a place.  Currently it's essentially a food court that looks like it has a Miami Vice themed interior, with some busininesses running out of storefronts, a couple gallery type framing places, a newsstand that essentially serves erie view tower.

 

2. you couldn't be more wrong in your statement about store hours.  There are several stores that do just fine being open until around 7 in the evenings... maybe limited saturday hours, and closed on Sundays.  They are profitable and survive because they do this.  If they were to be open until 9 every night, and full hours on the weekend, they would hemorage money and go out of business.

 

Sorry.  You are flat wrong on this.  When there is enough demand for new stores, and longer hours it will occur.  Until then it won't happen because stores would lose money and close.  Retail doesn't care what YOU think.  They are like insurance.  They do a ridiculous amount of research and data to back their decisions up. It's not chicken or egg.  Believe it or not market forces exist and they drive these things.

Regarding market forces, I'd like to know why downtown rents are higher if retail space there is in less demand.  According to the theory, rents should come down until stores are filled.  Maybe every downtown property owner who doesn't follow the rules of capitalist economics and lower the rents on their empty spaces should be expelled from the country as a communist. 

 

Any economic theory that forces downtown Cleveland retail to suck is a worthless economic theory.  How come I look around and all I see is empty stores?  Theory?  You let me get a hold of that theory and I'll give it the whuppin' it needs.  Some administrator at CSU once told me market forces dictated that it wasn't profitable to sell coffee in the morning.  Yeah right.  Half the time people quote me "market forces" what they really mean is:

 

"I just got torched on a contract and I'm being forced to act against everyone's interest but the one who torched me."

 

or

 

"I inherited this job/property in a way that had nothing to do with any market forces, and logic shall bow to my whim."

 

Edit:  I agree that limited hours can work for some retailers in some situations.  On the whole, I don't think it works for very many retailers, particularly those whose competitors do keep normal hours.

Having opened the Gorant store in the Galleria for American Greetings and having been privy to the store sales I can shed light on a couple of things.  When the AG store opened ten years ago the Galleria was already on the down slide, I think our location used to be a high end men's fashion retailer called Adam Ross.  After Tower City opened the crowds left the Galleria for the new, bigger venue and so did many of the retail stores.  The AG store did OK  - its bread and butter were the office workers who still filled the food court on their lunch breaks.  The 5pm "leaving work" business was also very good. Besides those two times it was dead.  Weekends, without the office crowds were terrible. Even football home games drew no shoppers.  The management/ownership of the Galleria changed about five years ago and they have been "de-storing" the space ever since.  The Galleria is now marketed as an extension of the office tower not as a shopping destination. So why be open on the weekends?  The reason the AG store stayed as long as it did was because of its lease.  I'm sure now the lease is up and with mediocre sales its not worth keeping open.

Regarding market forces, I'd like to know why downtown rents are higher if retail space there is in less demand.  According to the theory, rents should come down until stores are filled.  Maybe every downtown property owner who doesn't follow the rules of capitalist economics and lower the rents on their empty spaces should be expelled from the country as a communist. 

 

Any economic theory that forces downtown Cleveland retail to suck is a worthless economic theory.  How come I look around and all I see is empty stores?  Theory?  You let me get a hold of that theory and I'll give it the whuppin' it needs.  Some administrator at CSU once told me market forces dictated that it wasn't profitable to sell coffee in the morning.  Yeah right.  Half the time people quote me "market forces" what they really mean is:

 

"I just got torched on a contract and I'm being forced to act against everyone's interest but the one who torched me."

 

or

 

"I inherited this job/property in a way that had nothing to do with any market forces, and logic shall bow to my whim."

 

Everything is not BLACK AND WHITE man, Damn!

 

McCleveland said it best. 

  While we had previously been advised that Central Parking would open the garage on 17th Street referenced on our invitation, we were told today that this garage and other parking garages in the area will now be closed. 

 

Folks please be advised that the DC office is in the restricted zone.  you must show your badge and give my name to access our floors.  It's going to be mess.  All please travel safely and dress appropriately I don't want any of you to catch a cold or worse pass on your germs to me. :-)

Regarding market forces, I'd like to know why downtown rents are higher if retail space there is in less demand. According to the theory, rents should come down until stores are filled. Maybe every downtown property owner who doesn't follow the rules of capitalist economics and lower the rents on their empty spaces should be expelled from the country as a communist.

 

Any economic theory that forces downtown Cleveland retail to suck is a worthless economic theory. How come I look around and all I see is empty stores? Theory? You let me get a hold of that theory and I'll give it the whuppin' it needs. Some administrator at CSU once told me market forces dictated that it wasn't profitable to sell coffee in the morning. Yeah right. Half the time people quote me "market forces" what they really mean is:

 

"I just got torched on a contract and I'm being forced to act against everyone's interest but the one who torched me."

 

or

 

"I inherited this job/property in a way that had nothing to do with any market forces, and logic shall bow to my whim."

 

that's all fine and dandy.  Feel free to tell property owners to rent their storefronts out for free.  I don't know how much each location charges for rent, nor do I really care.  I'm sure some property owners can not afford to lower rents and still pay their mortgages.  And if they give a huge discount to one occupant, you better believe others are going to want them as well... next thing you know you don't have any income coming in.  Regardless, it goes much deeper than that. There are a whopping 10,000 residents (ish) living downtown Cleveland.  Probably around 6,000 of which are "affluent".  How many places do you think these people can shop?  And since after about 5:30-6:00 about 110,000 people exodus downtown and go back to their suburb... why do you suppose they would want to drive right by the store that exists five minutes from them just to come downtown and shop?  Please.  Market forces aren't just about rent.  It's about reality.  Until there are enough people living down here to support the types of places you want on their own.  The hours and the types of stores you want to see simply won't happen.  Period. End of Story.

This demonstrates just how long it's been since I've visited the Galleria.  I was unaware that their shift away from retail was so pronounced.  That's too bad, because the layout seems less than ideal for an office complex.  Then again, it never made for much of a mall either.  Three mistakes in a row (including the original plaza nothingness) for such a key spot on such a major intersection.  I still wish it could become more Avenue District. 

This demonstrates just how long it's been since I've visited the Galleria.  I was unaware that their shift away from retail was so pronounced.  That's too bad, because the layout seems less than ideal for an office complex.  Then again, it never made for much of a mall either.  Three mistakes in a row (including the original plaza nothingness) for such a key spot on such a major intersection.  I still wish it could become more Avenue District. 

 

The plaza was actually nice to me, granted I was a kid.  I liked the ice skating pound or the way you could look up at the EV Tower.

 

If you want retail locations to do well, you yourself, should support them instead of only telling them what you think they should do.  That's the equivalent of being a Monday morning quarterback!  How can one expect a complain or critique to be taken serious, when they don't patronize the stores?

This discussion is moving so fast I can't keep up (and work).  As an aside, it troubles me that I'm recently at odds with McCleveland a lot because I usually agree with all his points.  Anyway, I can't shake the notion that downtown retail falls so short of its potential that something systematic is wrong.  Our economic approach, at some level, is so fatally flawed that it must yield.  I don't know the answer, but more of whatever got us in this hole is definitely not it.  The Galleria was probably a lost cause.  Tower City isn't, and neither is Euclid Avenue nor the potential of all these parking lots. 

 

The cost of parking is definitely a problem.  Maybe for-profit parking lots are antithetical to downtown retail in the average US major city like Cleveland.  Maybe there should not be one more dime bled, in this manner, from people who come downtown. 

 

I also don't understand why the population of the immediate downtown area is so crucial.  How big is North Olmstead?  Macedonia?  It doesn't matter because they're not islands, and neither is downtown Cleveland.  The existence of a transit system, one that converges downtown and doesn't go to any other major retail center, should make for a downtown market much bigger than 10k right this moment.  If that's not enough to create a market equal to at least Niles, or Newark, or some other small Ohio town that has a full complement of retail, I don't know what to tell you.  I think we have plenty of market right now, and the problem is something else.  Which brings me back to what is so different about retail here than elsewhere?  Other than the aforementioned parking, it's the hours.

Optimism, my good man.  That's my problem.  I refuse to believe that Mother Nature, or God, or whatever, wants downtown Cleveland retail to suck.  Removing that from the equation, we are left with man.  Human decisions and human philosophies resulted in this blight.  Those are not dictated by laws of existence-- they are arbitrary constructs.  They could change right now.  Or now.  Or whenever we decide we're sick of this.  It really is that simple.

 

Crises call for creativity.  Let's try to come up with an entirely different approach to getting these needs filled, getting these buildings and lots filled.  The set of rules I'm childishly refusing to accept is the one that hasn't worked all that well for several decades now, throughout my time on this Earth.  Maybe I'm crazy and maybe I'm not.  How many ways can we possibly get some competitive retail downtown again?  Just one?  Get 15,000 people to move inside the innerbelt, all with essentially this level of retail, as a precondition?  Whose rule is that?  I don't think Cleveland voted for that, at the meeting.  What can we do about it?  Could it be easier to go around that hoop than through it?     

Isn't the Galleria mostly business anyway?  Since they're closed over the weekend as it is, I don't really see a big loss here unless you have a craving for fast food.

I'm a shopaholic and after reading that, I need to buy a new pair of hip boots!

 

Optimism, has nothing to do with this.  It's a reality.  Times are hard.

 

How much are you spending a day/week/month at downtown stores?

I'm a shopaholic and after reading that, I need to buy a new pair of hip boots!

 

Optimism, has nothing to do with this. It's a reality. Times are hard.

 

How much are you spending a day/week/month at downtown stores?

 

Yes that was a rambly post.  I still like the first and last paragraphs though.  I live primarily off student loans right now so I don't do much shopping.  I eat out downtown quite a bit because I'm usually there all day.  If I need clothes or household goods, downtown doesn't offer many realistic options.  One day I hope to wear tailored shirts and $100 ties; this is not that day. 

 

I tried to do all my Christmas shopping downtown, but very few things on my list were available there in any form.  That was one sad evening.  Luckily all of these items were available in the Olmstead, Mayfield/Cedar, and Niles shopping areas.  I loathe going to those places but many mainstream goods are unavailable where I live and work.  The items that were available downtown cost at least double what they cost anywhere else.  I'm sure they were nicer but I had more than one person to buy for, so the added spendor of Brooks Brothers $120 gloves did me no good.     

I'm a shopaholic and after reading that, I need to buy a new pair of hip boots!

 

Optimism, has nothing to do with this. It's a reality. Times are hard.

 

How much are you spending a day/week/month at downtown stores?

 

Yes that was a rambly post. I still like the first and last paragraphs though. I live primarily off student loans right now so I don't do much shopping.

 

What are you studying? You sound like a business major in the economic threads.

I was but now I'm in law school.  I wanted to be an architect but I can't draw at all.

The thing is, 327, is that we're all on your side. No one here is against you, in that, we all want downtown retail to flourish because when that type of activity is bustling downtown, it brings an energy to the urban core that Cleveland desperately needs in order to move it beyond where it is today.

 

But, in Cleveland at least (I don't know what it's like in other cities, really), keeping a store open later in downtown Cleveland doesn't mean that a market is there to support it. Of course a store needs to stay open later in order for shoppers to shop there later, but there also needs to be a market to support that.

 

Honestly, I personally think that the success of downtown retail does depend on a more established urban core of residents .. people who are committed to the urban lifestyle and are desiring to support downtown retailers. I think the problem with Cleveland is that, on the vast majority, urban flight is such a problem that a lot of people actually perceive the suburban lifestyle as better for them because it doesn't challenge their comfort zones. They don't want the urban lifestyle, nor do they want to have anything to do with it. I think people are literally afraid of the city. They come downtown for special events, but that's it. It's literally an entire mentality that needs to change, and until that starts happening more (I'm not saying everyone has to or will), true, vibrant retail in downtown Cleveland will be just a pipe dream.

 

Not to go too off-topic, but that's why I really mourned the loss of Stark's WHD project. I think he really had the idea right: to build a residential neighborhood, bring an established customer base in who would be attracted to the development that the WHD project promised but is sorely lacking in Cleveland, drive up downtown's cachet, but also secure the retail that downtown Cleveland needs. In order for downtown retail to really truly take off in the near term, Cleveland needs something like that: an infusion of energy all at once. But anything that just remains a quick flash just for the sake of novelty won't be sustained, either. There has to be a people committed to the urban core moving in there.

 

I think true downtown retail will follow as the residents follow. But it will most likely take some time, especially in this economy.

The thing is, 327, is that we're all on your side. No one here is against you, in that, we all want downtown retail to flourish because when that type of activity is bustling downtown, it brings an energy to the urban core that Cleveland desperately needs in order to move it beyond where it is today.

 

But, in Cleveland at least (I don't know what it's like in other cities, really), keeping a store open later in downtown Cleveland doesn't mean that a market is there to support it. Of course a store needs to stay open later in order for shoppers to shop there later, but there also needs to be a market to support that.

 

Honestly, I personally think that the success of downtown retail does depend on a more established urban core of residents .. people who are committed to the urban lifestyle and are desiring to support downtown retailers. I think the problem with Cleveland is that, on the vast majority, urban flight is such a problem that a lot of people actually perceive the suburban lifestyle as better for them because it doesn't challenge their comfort zones. They don't want the urban lifestyle, nor do they want to have anything to do with it. I think people are literally afraid of the city. They come downtown for special events, but that's it. It's literally an entire mentality that needs to change, and until that starts happening more (I'm not saying everyone has to or will), true, vibrant retail in downtown Cleveland will be just a pipe dream.

 

Not to go too isotopic, but that's why I really mourned the loss of Stark's WHD project. I think he really had the idea right: to build a residential neighborhood, bring an established customer base in who would be attracted to the development that the WHD project promised but is sorely lacking in Cleveland, drive up downtown's cachet, but also secure the retail that downtown Cleveland needs. In order for downtown retail to really truly take off in the near term, Cleveland needs something like that: an infusion of energy all at once. But anything that just remains a quick flash just for the sake of novelty won't be sustained, either. There has to be a people committed to the urban core moving in there.

 

I think true downtown retail will follow as the residents follow. But it will most likely take some time, especially in this economy.

 

I don't think that's really true. I think, (sadly) most people are just concerned about parking. You can go to a suburban mall and find easy parking, free. Even though the parking situation might not be that bad downtown, people like the predictability of going to a big box mall and knowing where they can park for free without any hassle. People might be against living in a chaotic city but that doesn't mean they won't shop there. Shopping and dining downtown is an occasional thing anyway - not part of their daily life. No doubt a large residential base downtown would help a lot but I think Ohio cities can handle more retail development downtown supported by suburbanites. Most people at Newport on the levee and (soon to be) the Banks in Cincinnati are suburbanites. NOTL tenant AMC vaidates parking in the garage which is a good way to bypass the issue people have with parking.

I was but now I'm in law school. I wanted to be an architect but I can't draw at all.

 

Man, 90 percent of people in urban design and planning (which requires an artistic temperament for CAD, sketchup, illustrator) have no clue about design and couldn't hand render something if their life depended on it. They make stuff on the computer, print out a wire frame outline and color it in if they have to. Thank God for computers.

I agree about the parking, it's an immeasurable barrier for many people.  It gives them an excuse big enough to avoid dealing with any other prejudices they may have.  I believe Tower City validates parking, as long as you buy something or see a movie.  But that's still administrative BS you don't have to go through in Beachwood.

 

I'd love to see how competitive downtown retail would be if the city just said "Beachwood doesn't charge for parking and neither will downtown.  No one shall profit from keeping our downtown ugly, for no rational being or polity would allow this.  All visitors to downtown will be treated the same as visitors to Beachwood Place, and step one is not demanding money from visitors before they've even quite arrived.  We're sorry property owners, but owning that land gives you no right to open a slaughterhouse downtown either.  We live together in a society.  You're using your land to negatively impact the commercial value of other land nearby.  That is a nuisance, and we the city can stop you."  Again, this may sound radical or insane, but the current system has led only to sorrow.  Are we sure it should remain unquestioned?

 

Aside from the parking hassle, I'm still don't understand why the downtown market is limited to those living within a few blocks of the square.  The downtown market rightly includes everyone who has reasonable RTA access to it.  Those people don't necessarily need to park. 

 

Do stores in Manhattan measure their market only in walking distance, like we're trying to here?  I don't know for sure, but I bet they don't.  I bet they include Brooklyn.  I may be way off on that.  But why is the potential market for a store in downtown Cleveland limited to 10,000 immediate downtown residents?  It should include the entire city limits, Lakewood and some of Shaker at least. 

 

There are over 50,000 people in Lakewood who can get downtown twice as fast as they can get to any other major shopping area.  Why are those people not considered part of downtown's retail market?  The lack of access to major shopping for Lakewoods twice-the-magic-number residential base is so pronounced they almost tore down the west end to build a mall.  Lakewood was built with the expectation that people would take transit to do their major shopping in downtown Cleveland.  There ought to be some way we can work this out.   

I personally think that downtown Cleveland needs to stop being treated like the suburbs, particularly in the area of retail. The reason that retail hasn't worked in downtown Cleveland so far is because most of the retail has been confined to large SUBURBAN MALLS! Why have these crept into downtown?!? Downtown Cleveland should be a center of life and energy, yet there's this constant desire to pander to suburbanites, so we create more parking to cater to their auto-centric lives, we build malls like the ones they have in the suburbs, etc. THIS IS WRONG! In order for the urban core to go beyond where it is and actually become a true, urban environment, there HAS to be an emphasis on urban design, not on pandering to the suburbanites! That means designing for pedestrians, and encouraging pedestrian activity, not continuously creating MORE parking. Once downtown Cleveland becomes more of an urban center, people will be attracted to it. People don't want the quasi-urban environment that downtown is today! People want a TRULY urban neighborhood! It's great to have suburbanites come and visit, but they're not the ones who will make downtown thrive beyond them leaving their office jobs or ball games!

 

I think there's a bit of a facade of urbanity in downtown right now .. it's like it's trying really hard, but it's not getting to the root of the issue.

 

 

I don't know enough about west side driving geography to agree or disagree that downtown is as easy to get to as suburban malls for Lakewood residents, but overall, I'd guess that the demos within a 1, 2, 3, or even 4-mile radius of downtown are pretty terrible for retail.  For many, many reasons, there is just so little in the way of large, intact middle or upper middle class neighborhood left within the orbit of Downtown, unlike 50 years ago.  The fact that people consider Lakewood or the heights "close-in" says it all- they're really not at all close to downtown unless you're comparing them to Hunting Valley.  So unless downtown can develop as a true regional retail attraction (expanding the customer radius), with products or atmosphere substantially different from malls and lifestyle centers, we're probably stuck.  I think we focus on downtown residential growth because that's one of the best shots we have at reviving downtown retail though improved customer demographics, not because everything has to be in walking distance.

 

And as for parking...forbidding parking lot owners from charging for parking is legally impossible without paying compensation, per the 5th Amendment, so it ain't gonna happen, even if there were political support, which there isn't.

Jpop, I'm with you on all of that.  The reason I want parking to be free is not to please people from Beachwood, but to make downtown shopping a more viable option for people living in the city and inner ring, who now drive out to the burbs to shop because they have no choice.  Our current transit system, while good, is still a little short of making parking availablility a non-factor for downtown.  RTA doesn't run enough during shopping hours.  RTA justifiably won't increase weekday evening or saturday afternoon service to downtown without some prompting.  All these things need to come together at once: increased density, along with increased shopping, along with increased transit.

 

Re the 5th amendment, never said they wouldn't be paid off.  But that one-time payment to make downtown a free parking zone would create big dividends.  After what happened in the flats, it hardly seems legally impossible.  I don't think it would be that hard to drum up popular support for free parking, enough that it might overcome any untoward influences.

 

Is Collinwood considered part of downtown's market?  E 152nd St?  Well, W 150th goes through the middle of Lakewood.  To me, Lakewood and the interior Heights area are unquestionably within downtown's market area.  They have been, by design and since the time of their creation, inexorably linked with and dependent upon downtown Cleveland. 

 

What is the special significance of being in downtown's immediate orbit?  Who cares.  From the Rocky River valley to about Lee Road, it is all solid city. All of this solid city area is set up to use downtown Cleveland as its downtown, as its major shopping area, no less so than is Ohio City or Hough.  Everyone seems to want to think of Lakewood as being in Lorain County or Michigan.  As long as we're in that mode, then no, downtown retail can never succeed.  It never would have in the first place.

People don't want the quasi-urban environment that downtown is today! People want a TRULY urban neighborhood!

 

Do they?  Of course some people do, but it's not clear to me how big this group is.  Anyway, what is a "truly urban" neighborhood?  I think I share a lot of your tastes for neighborhood qualities, but I'm not sure that makes them "truly urban".  Is Tower City fakely urban?

Do they?  Of course some people do, but it's not clear to me how big this group is.

 

I don't personally think that downtown should be for those "other" people. Not everyone will want the urban core, and I'm not saying that downtown should shun them. That's not fair or right, either. But to PANDER to them because we're so desperate for people to come downtown is such a statement of mediocrity, I think. Regions need a center that stands out as the leader for the region. That's where I think regionalism is dangerous .. I just fear that it will water down the leadership that Cleveland as an urban center needs to be. Without the urban core standing out as the leader for a region, people won't be attracted to it, whether that's retail or otherwise.

 

Anyway, what is a "truly urban" neighborhood?  I think I share a lot of your tastes for neighborhood qualities, but I'm not sure that makes them "truly urban".  Is Tower City fakely urban?

 

I think a truly urban neighborhood is comprised of various qualities:

 

#1 - first and foremost: progressive, forward-thinkers who are dreamers and want to be in community with other people who are dreamers, and want to do something to achieve those dreams. They're not there because it's some novelty. Real cities are places where people go to make their mark, where they contribute to a society devoted to a greater vision .. something of "look at us and what we can do here!", establishing a greater name for itself that is visible from all around.

 

#2 - design that encourages this community and competition and forward-thinking. Cities, in my opinion, at the end of the day, shouldn't look at other cities' buildings and structures so much to determine how a city should look. It's much more than that. Skyscrapers are great, but they started out as practical structures. They started out because space was becoming an issue, so they had to build vertically .. but why did they start running out of space?? Because PEOPLE WERE ATTRACTED TO CITIES. The shiny, pretty buildings play a part, but they should be an OUTWARD MANIFESTATION of what is happening in the city, not the city itself. Truly urban-minded people want the energy that cities foster. The shiny, pretty buildings will come naturally as that energy and drive grows. I think we've lost something of that.

 

And so, cities shouldn't focus so much on BUILDING things. That's the end result .. but if the ROOTS aren't there, if the FOUNDATION isn't there, then it's so hollow and forced! I almost think that trying to force urban neighborhoods comes out of a place of insecurity or jealousy .. cities end up wanting what other cities want, so they build the structures thinking that "if they build it, they will come." Building structures won't bring results if the foundations aren't there. And, I think, that extends to Cleveland retail, but even further, to Cleveland as a city. Obviously, these are relatively broad generalizations, but in order for a city to become successful in all aspects, I think those qualities are by and large needed.

 

And, to answer your question about TC: yes, I think TC is fakely urban. But not because it's a mall in and of itself. It's because its main goal was to attract people to downtown from the suburbs .. but that didn't last because there was no real FOUNDATION of urbanity behind it. I honestly don't think there was any real vision for the place because its entire vision was based on novelty. Once the novelty wore off, so did TC.

^OK, sorry, I didn't mean to let this get off topic at all.  I just question whether our preferences for what constitutes the ideal retail environment renders other people's ideals less "real", and lord knows, we can't debate what "urban" means.  If by lack of a "FOUNDATION of urbanity" you mean a customer base that (1) has money (2) lives in close proximity to Downtown, and (3) enjoys shopping Downtown, I think we are on the same page about what's missing in Cleveland.

 

With regards to retail, we are limited to critiquing the decisions of landlords/developers, retailers (established and entrepreneurs), public officials and consumers/residents.  And I guess I am not convinced that our lack of downtown retail is a result of anything other than these various parties acting for their own interests, as they inevitably will.

 

Mods, I don't think this conversation is off topic unless we are trying to stick to concrete retails news here.  If that's the case, my apologies and maybe we can add a thread "The future of Cleveland Retail" or something like that.

Jpop, it seems to me that you've described Hollywood, Vegas, or maybe Kennedy Space Center as much as anything most of us would consider "urban".

Wow.  I think I'm going to be laid off from my PT retail job.  I just heard there were a bunch of layoffs yesterday, including one person from my department, and that they are closing the customer service center in the store.  This is a large, chain, anchor store at South Park Mall.  I'm not suprised about the layoffs but I am shocked at the closing of customer service.  While eliminating gift wrap is not a big deal and people can pay their bills at any register, one of the big things we used it for was drop-shipping things; if we physically have the item in our store, we can take the actual item and send it to someone's address.  This is very handy for the many things that are seasonal or are discontinued and can no longer be ordered on the computer system, which pulls from the warehouse for all stores.  It might not be available at the warehouse anymore but if you can find it at a specific store, you can call them and have them drop ship it to someone's home (for a fee of course).  I can't imagine how we will do this if cust service is closed, maybe we will take things directly to the dock and the dock people will handle it now?

Wow.  I think I'm going to be laid off from my PT retail job.  I just heard there were a bunch of layoffs yesterday, including one person from my department, and that they are closing the customer service center in the store.  This is a large, chain, anchor store at South Park Mall.  I'm not suprised about the layoffs but I am shocked at the closing of customer service.  While eliminating gift wrap is not a big deal and people can pay their bills at any register, one of the big things we used it for was drop-shipping things; if we physically have the item in our store, we can take the actual item and send it to someone's address.  This is very handy for the many things that are seasonal or are discontinued and can no longer be ordered on the computer system, which pulls from the warehouse for all stores.  It might not be available at the warehouse anymore but if you can find it at a specific store, you can call them and have them drop ship it to someone's home (for a fee of course).  I can't imagine how we will do this if cust service is closed, maybe we will take things directly to the dock and the dock people will handle it now?

 

Sorry to hear that.  I hope all works out for the best.

I'll be ok, I was going to quit in a couple of months anyway as I'm expecting a baby and I was going to quit prior to having it, but it's just surprising.

I'll be ok, I was going to quit in a couple of months anyway as I'm expecting a baby and I was going to quit prior to having it, but it's just surprising.

 

CONGRATS! 

 

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:

thx :)  I've been contemplating quitting for awhile, working 2 jobs while PG has been tough but they've cut everyone's hours quite a bit so it's been pretty manageable.

Is this our first UrbanOhio baby?

Not sure, I probably haven't been a member long enough to know that one.

EDITED

i saw it on the news last night... legit.

Hard to understand why retailers are still open primarily during office hours.  Families no longer have stay at home spouses to do the shopping.  West Side Market for example, the hours are completely obsolete.  Maybe the rise in people working from home counteracts this some.  But still, I am surprised more retailers aren't closing during mid-day and staying open at night and on weekends more.

Hard to understand why retailers are still open primarily during office hours. Families no longer have stay at home spouses to do the shopping. West Side Market for example, the hours are completely obsolete. Maybe the rise in people working from home counteracts this some. But still, I am surprised more retailers aren't closing during mid-day and staying open at night and on weekends more.

 

au contraire.  I can tell you on my babycenter board there are about 3000 women on there who are from all across the country and are all due in may and I would say at least half are SAHMs (stay at home moms).  It's more than you think.  Then there are all the home daycare providers - nearly all of them are SAHMs or I guess you could say they're WAHMs since they work from home.  On the few vacation days I take during nicer weather during the year there are PLENTY of women out who are moms and have their small children with them (toddlers usually, not so much infants so they aren't on maternity leave) who are in the malls, parks, etc.

 

I agree on the WSM hours though, most people do.

Hard to understand why retailers are still open primarily during office hours.  Families no longer have stay at home spouses to do the shopping.  West Side Market for example, the hours are completely obsolete.  Maybe the rise in people working from home counteracts this some.  But still, I am surprised more retailers aren't closing during mid-day and staying open at night and on weekends more.

 

Because its a business.  They cannot afford to close during the day.  This isn't 1950.  Businesses like those in the westside market must be open even if it doesn't seem economical.  Same with the chain stores in a shopping mall.  I've often thought that WSM could have longer hours say to 7:30PM Mon - Fri, but someone spoke on how the vendors spend their time and select product and need certain hours.

 

I hate to say this, but a few of our malls could close, we are over saturated.

 

ETA: 

 

Also not just moms shop in the afternoon, teenagers are the biggest bridge of mall patronage between 3 PM and 6 PM. 

 

You close the mall, you lock out a huge target group on both sides of the dollar.  Those spending and those working.

I hate to say this, but a few of our malls could should close, we are over saturated.

 

There you go... fixed that one for you. :wink:

I hate to say this, but a few of our malls could should close, we are over saturated.

 

There you go... fixed that one for you. ;)

 

LMAO.  Thanks buddy!

Gotcha, but do all local markets hold WSM hours?  It really seems odd.  I can get behind closing malls.  But it's really frustrating, being a single person with normal business hours, that many retailers and services are generally unavailable to me.  For me to get something drycleaned is a logistical nightmare, even though my house is surrounded with drycleaners.

Hard to understand why retailers are still open primarily during office hours. Families no longer have stay at home spouses to do the shopping. West Side Market for example, the hours are completely obsolete. Maybe the rise in people working from home counteracts this some. But still, I am surprised more retailers aren't closing during mid-day and staying open at night and on weekends more.

 

Because its a business. They cannot afford to close during the day. This isn't 1950. Businesses like those in the westside market must be open even if it doesn't seem economical. Same with the chain stores in a shopping mall. I've often thought that WSM could have longer hours say to 7:30PM Mon - Fri, but someone spoke on how the vendors spend their time and select product and need certain hours.

 

I hate to say this, but a few of our malls could close, we are over saturated.

 

ETA:

 

Also not just moms shop in the afternoon, teenagers are the biggest bridge of mall patronage between 3 PM and 6 PM.

 

You close the mall, you lock out a huge target group on both sides of the dollar. Those spending and those working.

 

The WSM's hours are the way they are because:

-the tenants like it that way and refuse to change

-many of the restaurants come early in the morning to pick up their food

-it is managed by the City's Dept of Parks & Recreation and they specialize in cutting grass in city parks and emptying trash cans

Gotcha, but do all local markets hold WSM hours?  It really seems odd.  I can get behind closing malls.  But it's really frustrating, being a single person with normal business hours, that many retailers and services are generally unavailable to me.  For me to get something drycleaned is a logistical nightmare, even though my house is surrounded with drycleaners.

 

Bad for you but there are others in your area or thos that travel to your area for those services most likely appreciate the daytime hours.

 

Ask your dry cleaner about extending or altering hours and see if there is an interest.  If it makes good business sense than your preferred dry cleaner may be into it.

^I know you were using this as just one example but many dry cleaners pick up and deliver (especially downtown...most of the guys in my office subscribed to this service). 

 

Also and this is probably on the high end but I would say that of at least 80% of the married couples I know the mom is stay at home or has a very limited part time job with lots of free time to shop during the day (except when they are driving the kids absolutely EVERYWHERE...this really  bugs me...let them go play in the back yard and the street like we did growing up)

^I know you were using this as just one example but many dry cleaners pick up and deliver (especially downtown...most of the guys in my office subscribed to this service). 

 

Also and this is probably on the high end but I would say that of at least 80% of the married couples I know the mom is stay at home or has a very limited part time job with lots of free time to shop during the day (except when they are driving the kids absolutely EVERYWHERE...this really  bugs me...let them go play in the back yard and the street like we did growing up)

 

And a lot of families, more than you would belive, have domestic help.

 

It depends on how old the kids are.  I mean my mom wouldnt let us go to far by ourselves until we were ten.  Then the radius from the house was extended.  I say let them ride their bikes.

Good points, Htsguy and MTS.  I'd like to know more about delivery.  The only people I know who use it also have a stay at home spouse to coordinate it-- delivery can't just walk into a locked house.  Then again, I have a stay at home roommate, so this could work for me.

 

On the married couples issue, the experiences recounted here are different than mine.  Most married couples I know both work as much as they can, and family pitches in with child care whenever possible.  I know of zero households that can get by on a single income, though I can think of one with domestic help.  But they both work and have no kids, or they could never afford domestic help. 

 

It sounds sometimes like the greater UO community (not so much posters, but people in posters' circles) is noticeably more well off than the average.  Expenditures and comfort levels that are discussed frequently on here just don't seem common around town, you know?  I only say this because it's something to keep in mind when we discuss market issues.  It underlies my belief that downtown Cleveland needs a Penney's before it needs $1000 purses. 

Good points, Htsguy and MTS.  I'd like to know more about delivery.  The only people I know who use it also have a stay at home spouse to coordinate it-- delivery can't just walk into a locked house.  Then again, I have a stay at home roommate, so this could work for me.

 

On the married couples issue, the experiences recounted here are different than mine.  Most married couples I know both work as much as they can, and family pitches in with child care whenever possible.  I know of zero households that can get by on a single income, though I can think of one with domestic help.  But they both work and have no kids, or they could never afford domestic help. 

 

It sounds sometimes like the greater UO community (not so much posters, but people in posters' circles) is noticeably more well off than the average.  Expenditures and comfort levels that are discussed frequently on here just don't seem common around town, you know?  I only say this because it's something to keep in mind when we discuss market issues.  It underlies my belief that downtown Cleveland needs a Penney's before it needs $1000 purses. 

 

Judging by the educational levels of MOST posters, I would assume that most UOers' income is above average.[