Over the years it has seemed that they never really had a vision for the place since its initial opening, and instead of blaming themselves just subtly suggest that downtown Cleveland is dying and there is nothing they can do about it.

 

I think this is a big source of our "mainstream retail here requires 20k downtown residents" canard.  That claim is proven false by countless other struggling cities... and it's a flat-out ridiculous excuse when one's own policies are neglectful or non-competitive. 

and that of course, has more to do with our 59 city in one county setup in which each of those places has there own retail establishment, meaning people have to choose to pass dozens of retail centers which offer the exact same things where they can park for free to want to come downtown... which they've spoken pretty loudly they won't.  which is why we currently need a unique retail niche downtown.  Though I think we've had this conversation many times over... let's just leave it at that.

 

I really have no idea what FCE is thinking htsguy.  niche retail or not, it's a lot easier to attract the types of tennants people want to shop at when you have some decent stores, and FCE doesn't seem all that interested in retaining them.

"Still doing somewhat better than these downtown malls in many other cities (however, a drop in the bucket compared to what's going on in NY, Chicago, Toronto, Boston, Washington, San Francisco, etc., etc.)."

 

Do any of those cities have demographic$ comparable to Cleveland?

 

I think Htsguy could be onto something; the construction of the casino is going to be pretty disruptive for a while, so perhaps upon completion, retailers might see the added foot traffic (or lack thereof depending on things play out) and reconsider the viability of Tower City, and FCE might become more aggressive with tenant retention. Pure speculation on my part.

Im still somewhat amazed that a city with a daily downtown population of 100,000+ workers cannot support some meaningful retail in the CBD.  It is a valid point about the casinos though.  Could be that FCE now wants to empty the place and start over.

^i'd agree, though oddly they continue to fill spaces with lesser tennants.  I believe there is some floral space going in the old j&m space.  perhaps when the casino is further along they will let leases expire and redevelop the property to an extent. I guess we'll find out over the next couple years.

"Still doing somewhat better than these downtown malls in many other cities (however, a drop in the bucket compared to what's going on in NY, Chicago, Toronto, Boston, Washington, San Francisco, etc., etc.)."

 

Do any of those cities have demographic$ comparable to Cleveland?

 

How about St. Loius, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Providence?  Not one of them got the memo.  Not one of them.  All those cities have fractured metro areas, wrecked economies, substantial ghetto and sprawl... and all have at least one mainstream downtown anchor store, sometimes several.  None of these cities has even a fraction of Cleveland's downtown population, and none of them had to acquire these downtown anchor stores through niche-development.

 

These "rules" we cling to are demonstrably and conclusively false, and moreover, they're self-perpetuating and self-defeating.  It is imperative that we let go of them.  Please consider that if our downtown retail situation appears uniquely impossible, it might be because our analytical approach is uniquely wrong.

"Still doing somewhat better than these downtown malls in many other cities (however, a drop in the bucket compared to what's going on in NY, Chicago, Toronto, Boston, Washington, San Francisco, etc., etc.)."

 

Do any of those cities have demographic$ comparable to Cleveland?

 

How about St. Loius, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Providence? Not one of them got the memo. Not one of them. All those cities have fractured metro areas, wrecked economies, substantial ghetto and sprawl... and all have at least one mainstream downtown anchor store, sometimes several. None of these cities has even a fraction of Cleveland's downtown population, and none of them had to acquire these downtown anchor stores through niche-development.

 

These "rules" we cling to are demonstrably and conclusively false, and moreover, they're self-perpetuating and self-defeating. It is imperative that we let go of them. Please consider that if our downtown retail situation appears uniquely impossible, it might be because our analytical approach is uniquely wrong.

 

Umm, St. Louis has a Macy's, yes, but it's continuously downsizing and the mall that it and a Dillards once anchored has been gone for years now.

^^ Do those cities have an amount of retail in the suburbs comparable to Cleveland's suburbs? Maybe they can support downtown shopping because their suburban markets aren't completely saturated. I'm not very familiar with the cities you listed, but I think that Cleveland's oversupply of suburban malls might be a big factor in explaining why we don't have downtown retail.

Most tower city retail has been gone for years too... it's those other functions I listed above that keep the mall itself open.  And in the current economy, of course all these other cities are losing stores.  But they're still an order of magnitude ahead of us in downtown retail, while they're behind us by a similar margin in downtown population.  The correlation just isn't there, when you measure for it.

 

I'm not suggesting these places are merchandise meccas... but I am suggesting that Cleveland should probably explore more than one theory on this issue at some point in the coming decade.  There are too many counterexamples for the dominant theory to persist, and it hasn't done us a lot of good anyway.  Why that theory gets such an ideological monopoly here I have no idea.  But ideological monopolies are rarely for the best.

 

^^ Do those cities have an amount of retail in the suburbs comparable to Cleveland's suburbs? Maybe they can support downtown shopping because their suburban markets aren't completely saturated. I'm not very familiar with the cities you listed, but I think that Cleveland's oversupply of suburban malls might be a big factor in explaining why we don't have downtown retail.

 

I would love to find that out.  It's not like the patchwork map we have here is all that unique.  It's not unique at all, really.  And the maxim that retail/industrial provides more tax revenue than residential is true nationwide.  I'll never deny that suburban overload is a factor here... but it has ZERO impact on the population of the city proper and much of the inner ring.  Those populations are not well served by any of this suburban retail largesse.  They can get downtown more easily than they can to the exurbs, and many of them have direct transit access to do it with. 

 

But instead our urban population has to drive out to the exurbs anyway.  And so they do.  Self-fulfilling prophecy, and look who benefits from it... exurban municipalities and exurban retail developers.  Keeping Cleveland retail-free gives them a lot more market than exurban retailers typically have.  They each get a slice of the market that's supposed to be served by downtown Cleveland.  And all they have to do to perpetuate this situation is convince us we have no choice. 

I believe Pittsburgh has at least somewhat weaker retail in the suburbs.  I don't know about right downtown but it has many very "good" (i.e. residents with money) neighborhoods within a few miles. A denser downtown, indeed. Downtown Columbus had better retail than Clevelands' downtown about eight years ago but that Columbus' downtown retail has diminished drastically.

Several of those cities subsidize the retailers' operation; that's a dead horse that won't be beaten here any longer. We've gone over how the income levels of Cleveland's residents - specifically within the urban core compare to other cities; another dead horse that won't be beaten here any longer. See where I'm going with this?

Downtown has one traditional men's barber shop, two opticians, one photography store, two or three shoe repair businesses, one home furniture store, a few traditional menswear stores, one not-too-large book store, only a few traditional jewelers, zero hardware stores near the center, on and on - Ridiculous!!  Btw, the number's I've seen show fewer than 100,000 individuals working downtown, though your borders may be larger than what I'd consider.

Most tower city retail has been gone for years too... it's those other functions I listed above that keep the mall itself open.  And in the current economy, of course all these other cities are losing stores.  But they're still an order of magnitude ahead of us in downtown retail, while they're behind us by a similar margin in downtown population.  The correlation just isn't there, when you measure for it.     

 

Actually as has been pointed out, it could be argued that these cities are actually behind us in the evolution of traditional retail away from downtown (ones that are still maintaining a department store presence that is scaling down (seems to be where we were a number of years ago)).

 

In many cases Greater Cleveland became more suburban before many of these other areas, and certainly more saturated in retail. 

 

There are few cases where downtown department stores are not struggling, and it is not just because of the economy.  The remaining ones are typically in places that don't yet have the per capita saturation level that we have in Greater Cleveland (which is more than 3 times the national average), or the level of suburbanization, and maybe a few instances where they have a collection of places that cant be found in the suburbs, but its becoming more and more difficult for them as the phenomenon of developers, developing shopping further out puts the other cities in the same situation we were in seveeral years ago.

 

I will try to locate the numbers (which I believe have been presented to you before).   

For those not privvy:  Numbers seen, methodology questioned, and I don't want to rehash that either. 

 

So I'm asking... just off the top of my head, four massive shopping centers have been added in the past decade, one of which is just south of downtown.  What is so different about the market 1/2 mile upriver that we could justify building all of Steelyard?  Parking, yes, but that has nothing to do with market saturation.

 

I think it's more a matter of policy than natural forces.  I guess I'm in a completely different room on that.  Regardless, things get better if some current non-retail proposals end up happening.  Fill in the Colonial Arcade with sports exhibits, fill in the Galleria with a greenhouse, fill in the old department stores with offices and a temporary casino... available square footage declines.  That should be a good thing, especially if oversupply really is the controlling factor.                 

Back to original question: Does anyone here have an "in" with these people? When the new, stated-to-be-only-8,000 sq.ft. Brooks Brothers opens at Eton about 4/1 (only 1/1/2 months away), what will become of the existing two? Studying the number of BB's in other metro. areas and their populations, it's almost impossible for me to imagine either only one here or three....

Okay - Yesterday some Brooks Brothers salespeople were finally talkin' - the Beachwood Place outlet is to close March 28th - a few days before Eton opens. Still not in the news media, but this replacement will take place.  It seems much more in the expected order of things than if Tower City were to close, and is what I originally had anticipated, but there have certainly been rumblings about Tower City's closing for some time, and BB has been closed a while on Sundays, for example, which hasn't helped its image.  I do wonder how permanent Tower City's BB really is. I imagine the decision to closed Beachwood but not Tower City was not made that quickly....

Add Charlotte Russe to the Tower City closings as well.

Add Charlotte Russe to the Tower City closings as well.

 

I actually find that one a bit surprising.

Me too, as it's always very busy at lunchtime, but I'm sure it's the same problem with every other store there; dead after 5pm.

The fact that anything has stayed open there since Dillards left is a testament to the power of mass transit, and to the stability of downtown.  In less favorable settings that place would have been like Randall Park by now. 

Me too, as it's always very busy at lunchtime, but I'm sure it's the same problem with every other store there; dead after 5pm.

 

I guess I find it more surprising because it doesn't exactly cater to the professional crowd......

Many who frequent Tower City are not, but there still a lot of us "suits" who walk through there - at least "business hours."

Okay - Yesterday some Brooks Brothers salespeople were finally talkin' - the Beachwood Place outlet is to close March 28th - a few days before Eton opens. Still not in the news media, but this replacement will take place. It seems much more in the expected order of things than if Tower City were to close, and is what I originally had anticipated, but there have certainly been rumblings about Tower City's closing for some time, and BB has been closed a while on Sundays, for example, which hasn't helped its image. I do wonder how permanent Tower City's BB really is. I imagine the decision to closed Beachwood but not Tower City was not made that quickly....

 

Thanks for the intel!  I really really like the Tower City BB store.  A seriously cool space.  I know its survival is not assured, but I am relieved for the moment.

I continue to be amazed that any mall can survive without an anchor tenant.  Why is it that retail subsidies are out of the question? SYC got tax breaks (although they did not take them?).  I think once the Towpath Trial is completed to Terminal Tower that an LL Bean or REI on the back end of the Avenue would be a huge success. 

It's not that retail subsidies are out of the question per say... as has been discussed ad nauseum, the current issue is that there isn't anywhere to put an anchor store, all of the old department stores have been repurposed, and there is certainly nothing left in proximity to TC that could serve as its anchor... so... any anchor type store would have to be new build.  And the numbers certainly don't make sense for any developer to "just" build an anchor store nearby... so what would need to happen would be a very large scale mixed use retail heavy development so that the developer can make $$$ (something very similar to what stark proposed).  Of course the market isn't exactly favorable to a retail heavy mega development at the time being. 

 

Perhaps, with the inclusion of the casino, it will encourage FCE to take advantage of the opportunity and build an anchor tennant off the back end as you discussed... at which point the subsidy talk may come back into play.  But that's just speculation and no one knows what FCE is interested in doing but they haven't shown much interest in investing in TC.  It will certainly be interesting if the bring anything to the table as the casino heats up.

 

And if people want to complain about the subsidy thing, please track down Mike White... when we still had department stores downtown and the retail market was changing and subsidies became more of the norm, he basically told the stores to go pound salt.  Once they were gone, the private sector didn't show any interest what so ever in retail, but has found ways to make use of the buildings... which is why we are where we're at.

What is REI?

The GNC guy mentioned how well his place is doing (though I have heard him or another manager there badmouthing downtown Cleveland for retail). He mentioned the Casino and how it still uncertain location would make a significant difference to TC. He also said he could see a whole remarketing of TC shops....

As to the LL Bean reference, maybe but TC already went through J Crew and other shops not too different (i.e. Preppy sporting casual).

Google is your friend:  http://www.rei.com/

REI would be great, especially with a connection to the Towpath.

What is REI?

The GNC guy mentioned how well his place is doing (though I have heard him or another manager there badmouthing downtown Cleveland for retail. He mentioned the Casino and how it still uncertain location would make a significant difference to TC. He also said he could see a whole remarketing of TC shops....

As to the LL Bean reference, maybe but TC already went through J Crew and other shops not too different (i.e. Preppy sporting casual).

 

I'm assuming that the TC folks want to maintain some flexibility until the Casino plans are finalized. Once they are, I imagine that FCE will roll out an aggressive new retail strategy.

City Blue on Euclid Ave was COMPLETELY cleaned out when I walked past there around 2pm this afternoon. I had to do a double look when i noticed the gate was down and all the lights were turned off. Anyone have any news or info on them closing?

And if people want to complain about the subsidy thing, please track down Mike White... when we still had department stores downtown and the retail market was changing and subsidies became more of the norm, he basically told the stores to go pound salt.  Once they were gone, the private sector didn't show any interest what so ever in retail, but has found ways to make use of the buildings... which is why we are where we're at.

 

Mike White has nothing to do with current policies... and we do ourselves no favors by repeating his destructive decision year after year.  As for major retail spaces filling in, FCE can't blame anyone else for its own destructive decision to fill the Higbee space in such a piecemeal and inappropriate fashion.  If the rest of the retail at TC is lost... we deserve it because of our policy choices, and FCE deserves it too because of theirs.  Soon after these incompetent policies change... so will our Retail News.

it's like you have selective reading...

Yes - I just noticed City Blue today, too. I was there quite recently - no sign of this coming, though I never saw many customers in there. They last their Randall place a few years ago but, as you may know, they took over a large part of what was Dallas, outside Randall. Phone book (so, so out-of-date this year!!) says they're in East Cleveland.  Anyway, I suppose they wanted to really concentrate on the N. Randall place.

So that was the last of the what-I-call shlock clothing stores on Euclid in downtown Cleveland! That one near E. 12th - south side - with the suits, coats, and ties may still be eeking it out but that place is definitely borderline.  Manager or owner had said months ago he had "10 days left" or something like that, before moving to The Arcade (where otherone was on Superior end). We can see where that plan went.... He was (or is) getting awfully desparate wtih the reductions. A bit too desparate, for my taste. Of coruse they had closed their place on St. Clair in the Standard Building over a year ago, I believe.

Can't blame the Euclid Corridor now....

The success of East Fourth may have caused rents to go way up recently.  I kind of had a feeling for a while now that City Blue was getting "forced out".

Whatever one may think of their product lines... City Blue was really getting an odd man out quality about it, with everything else opening around there.  Not a good fit.  Hopefully they can get something in that space that provides more continuity on Euclid.

Very little left of stores anything like City Blue left in downtown Cleveland. Some in Tower City a little like it, and a little around Prospect and the one one W. 9th but that's about it. Very few clothing stores left right on sidewalk, in general.

Someone wrote there's not a single wig shop left in downtown Columbus - I wonder if that's true.... Anyway, we have a few of those downtown.

I believe Pittsburgh has at least somewhat weaker retail in the suburbs.  I don't know about right downtown but it has many very "good" (i.e. residents with money) neighborhoods within a few miles. A denser downtown, indeed. Downtown Columbus had better retail than Clevelands' downtown about eight years ago but that Columbus' downtown retail has diminished drastically.

I lived in PGH and worked downtown several years ago and still visit often.  It seems to me that the public transportation is a little better, perhaps that helps. 

Didn't know where else to put this, but this was in the employment section from craigslist.com. The posting is pretty long, so I wont post the whole thing. But where is this? Or is it new?

 

Grocery Store Manager - Upscale Location (Cleveland)

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ret/1761205166.html

 

From the posting:

 

At Simply Food, we empower our Team Members and Team Leaders to make their own decisions, thus creating an environment where people are treated with respect and are highly motivated to excel. We mentor Team Members through education and on-the-job experience. As a result, we are able to fill a majority of leadership roles from our existing team member base. We also recognize that there are individuals with talent outside of Simply Food, and have programs to bring those new leaders into the company. We are people from diverse backgrounds and perspectives, yet all work together to meet the needs of our customers.

 

 

 

 

^ Chesterfield?

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&resnum=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=simply+food&fb=1&gl=us&hq=simply+food&cid=1127517852453343365

Not exactly news, but there was an interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal today about online retailers tracking shopping trends around the country.  Cleveland was highlighted along with a few other places.  Take a look at the graphic:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703977004575393423932303014.html?KEYWORDS=Cleveland

 

 

Not exactly news, but there was an interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal today about online retailers tracking shopping trends around the country.  Cleveland was highlighted along with a few other places.  Take a look at the graphic:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703977004575393423932303014.html?KEYWORDS=Cleveland

 

 

.88 to $1.  Who in Cleveland did they poll? 

 

DC $1.11 that is truly shocking as the article states, peeps in DC are frumpy and not generaly known for being fashion forward as DC is a "uniform" city.

Not exactly news, but there was an interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal today about online retailers tracking shopping trends around the country.  Cleveland was highlighted along with a few other places.  Take a look at the graphic:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703977004575393423932303014.html?KEYWORDS=Cleveland

 

 

.88 to $1.  Who in Cleveland did they poll? 

 

DC $1.11 that is truly shocking as the article states, peeps in DC are frumpy and not generaly known for being fashion forward as DC is a "uniform" city.

 

True DC is frumpy, but it has been changing the past few years.  Also, it lacks the depression era mentality that cities like Cleveland have.  Basically they will spend more on a boring, frumpy shirt, and there are more higher priced options in DC. 

 

Cleveland in many ways has more style but it tends to be "shabby chic".

Apparently I belong in Boston.  J. Crew, Banana Republic, North Face....  Yep, that just about sums up my closet.

All that "change" in DC yet it still has large areas of depression era mentality north and east of the I-395/New York Ave. intersection and across the river in Wards 7 and 8. It's just offset by the wealthy areas, mostly represented in Wards 3 and 4. I wish these neighboorhods would change without tearing down existing lots to build luxury condos and forcing the former residents to move to PG county.

 

I know, off topic but it has to be said.

gabriel bros should be #1, 'cept it's not a brand

When I took a friend to Cleveland, he made the comment that the women were generally more fashionable and tried harder than the women in Chicago.  I thought the thing that attributed to that was the fact that the going out culture in Cleveland has always meant going "Downtown" to large % of the population, and therefore it seemed that people generally "tricked it up a bit" when they went out.  Many cities don't have that going out Downtown culture as much as Cleveland.

 

Interesting note about J Crew, I had friends that worked for them in the heyday opening new stores, and they said Tower City was the 8th store opening in the chain at the time.

All that "change" in DC yet it still has large areas of depression era mentality north and east of the I-395/New York Ave. intersection and across the river in Wards 7 and 8. It's just offset by the wealthy areas, mostly represented in Wards 3 and 4. I wish these neighboorhods would change without tearing down existing lots to build luxury condos and forcing the former residents to move to PG county.

 

I know, off topic but it has to be said.

 

Well yeah thats a different story all together.  I was talking more of the boring government worker that used to be such a part of the landscape combined with the lack of diversity or subculture.  I think that has been changing. 

But yeah, the neighborhood shifts are pretty shocking.... 

I never realized that people in Cleveland were on the trendy side (for better or worse) until I had moved to NC.  I also never realized exactly how bad our roads are until I had moved to NC.

I thought we were talking about Cleveland: Retail News. :-|

^ No, we weren't, and that's the problem.  Back on topic, folks!