I really, really want to like and be a regular patron of DU. I purchased some items from the aforementioned "home" section some months ago as a birthday gift, but their clothes are really, really expensive and the women's clothing seems to be designed for really super thin people, waif-like models who can wear a floor length dress with horizontal strips and who can fit their tiny, bony chests into tops with no give in the front. It's like shopping at Anthropologie or something, but without as many inexpensive trinkets you could buy as gifts or for your home.

 

Actually, DU has far exceed the owners' expectations. Financially, they are pretty well ahead of schedule and have had some difficulty keeping up with demand.

I think this entire debate is a prime example of a big problem that we have in the city of Cleveland: the way that we view OURSELVES. DU isn't "cleveland". Well, why isn't it? Don't we deserve to live in luxury too? Don't we deserve to have stores and restaurants and hotels and other shops that cater to people who want the finer things in life? What's wrong with that? Why is that not Cleveland? I'll tell you why: because we have had this godawful inferiority complex for so long that we've begun to believe it. Cleveland is a major city. We don't act like it, but we are. And it is high time that we start behaving like one. Now, should every retail store in Cleveland cater to the clientele of DU? No. There should be something for everybody. But lets stop this loser mentality that says that anything is "too good" or "too fancy" or "too luxury" for Cleveland. When we act like that, when we think like that, when we talk like that we prove every lame ass comedian, biased national media outlet and uninformed American right about Cleveland. STOP ACTING LIKE LOSERS. This is Cleveland, dammit! We deserve the best and its time we stop settling for less or, worse, believing that that's all we deserve or that's all our "market" can handle, which is bull.

 

EXACTLY.  As someone who came from out of state, I don't understand the negativity or low self esteem.

 

 

 

Actually, DU has far exceed the owners' expectations. Financially, they are pretty well ahead of schedule and have had some difficulty keeping up with demand.

 

 

Awesome!

 

 

 

A dismal failure?  Not by any means.  TC downfall was FC lack of management.  Period.

This seems unsubstantiated.

The Avenue District did not and does not today have a Mall Manager in the capacity of Westfield or Simon.  When TC had plans to reorganize and Barney's, Joan & David, Politix, Calvin Klein wanted to expand that couldn't.  In addition some stores parent company's had their own financial issues (Barney's & Gucci) that cause stores to close, yet people thought/assumed the stores were no producing.  This along with the Neiman Marcus debacle, didn't help the mall itself.

 

I'm friends with the General Managers of the Fendi, Barney's, H20, & Gymboree. Ive heard a ton of story's on how difficult it was to work with TC nor how they had no plans on bring in new stores if one left.  Few people know we were to have a YSL, an Emporio Armani, a Donna Koran, Oliver People, Ralph Lauren.  Most of stores had issues with TC management.  I've heard a ton of stories from managers.

 

This all stemmed from the WB Studio Store wanting a prime spot, which out places other stores.  YSL wanted to be were Gucci was and RL wanted to be where Joan & David was.  They all wanted their own entrances like Barney's.

We need places like DU whose market is essentially lucky people.  You're well off, you're thin, that's wonderful... and Cleveland has something for you.  Come on down.  It isn't surprising that our first new downtown retail in years is of the high-margin variety.  There are, however, a lot more locals who fit into other market segments, segments that depend more on volume than margin.  Hopefully there will one day be a place for those shoppers as well.

Why won't Forest City get a mall managament co.?  They own the Westfield San Francisco Centre, which is HUGE and of course a very different market, but has some similarities to TC.  Don't they see the benefit in Westfield (or another company) running the retail conponant?

Why won't Forest City get a mall managament co.?  They own the Westfield San Francisco Centre, which is HUGE and of course a very different market, but has some similarities to TC.  Don't they see the benefit in Westfield (or another company) running the retail conponant?

 

Thats the 1 million dollar question.  FC co owns (IIRC, they owned a piece of the property that was used for expansion) that mall with a Shopping Mall developer and manager.  But it makes no sense for Westfield or Simon not to manage TC!  Market makes no difference in the management in the mall.

I really, really want to like and be a regular patron of DU. I purchased some items from the aforementioned "home" section some months ago as a birthday gift, but their clothes are really, really expensive and the women's clothing seems to be designed for really super thin people, waif-like models who can wear a floor length dress with horizontal strips and who can fit their tiny, bony chests into tops with no give in the front. It's like shopping at Anthropologie or something, but without as many inexpensive trinkets you could buy as gifts or for your home.

 

Actually, DU has far exceed the owners' expectations. Financially, they are pretty well ahead of schedule and have had some difficulty keeping up with demand.

 

The clothing may be expensive, but when you have quality over quantity, it pays for itself. Such is a philosophy widely void in the American consumer public these days because they're used to cheap throw away garbage...which often has one actually spending more in the long run.  As for sizes...  I would suggest trying to shed some pounds. 

 

Oh and in regards to post 1750... You've got it SPOT ON..  Yes Cleveland, stop with the mediocre expectations and low self esteem that often gets you what you exude. CRAP! I actually find DU's prices in line with Macy's and you are getting a better product and supporting a local/independent retailer..  Multiply this times a 100 and we don't need big brother to come in and "do it for us" or "save the city" we should have learned by now that does not work. 

 

Afterall, we all want spaces filled, right? Cannot survive if people do not find the real reasons to support them...instead of just buying on price alone and not really comparing apples to apples when making a purchase decision. Instead, to many compare apples to oranges and think they're getting the same thing.

 

Personally, I would pay a little more for a REAL merchant to customer experience and in knowing I am helping keep these entities from going extinct. I want our city to offer something different...not follow the crowd of clone zones. I also say this as a one time small retail merchant.

 

Anyway, I find the quality at DU to be fantastic. One pair of pants you get there for $79 or more, will last far longer and look nicer longer than 3 pair you buy at a mall for less. That is actually how people used to shop before the market was flooded with inferior junk. They had less clothing, but better quality..and took care of it. Such purchase practices are almost always more sustainable, economically, socially, and environmentally.

 

If you want some cheap prices... try Dean Rufus House Of Fun in OC...good product for a little less and a local merchant. Pants, shirts, etc.. Or also try M.Lang for a unique experience. I have bought so many stitches of clothing there and it is all fantastic and lasts! Good prices too...and serves cocktails...and talks with his customers...a great experience! Can't do that at Dillard's.

 

You can shed pounds but you can't shed hips or shoulders.  Them's bones.

Then try a tailor.... Once you have fitted clothing, you will never go back to cookie cutter sizes.

I regularly shop at Macy's. Their clothes are not in line with Macy's prices.

 

As I mentioned before, I am not plus-sized, nor anything close to it. I am voluptuous, I have curves. I am not built like a stick. I do not appreciate being told to shed some pounds, and it is not on topic to the discussion either.

 

For the 500th time, I am thrilled if they are doing well. I was concerned they were not, and posited reasons why TO ME it didn't seem like they were doing well. Happy that I'm wrong about that, but I am done taking people there as everyone I've taken seems to feel the same way I do about the place. I guess we are all just "not their demographic," which is fine. But it doesn't mean we are fat people who expect Wal-Mart prices either. There is an inbetween, everything is not an extreme.

"We had a vibrant downtown retail department store business. We had Barneys of New York, and we had Polo. We had the first Disney Store in Northeast Ohio. We had a letter of intent with Neiman Marcus to put a department store in downtown Cleveland."  UGH  :cry: 

 

I have a question, does anyone know about how many downtown residents there were around the time of Tower City's opening?

 

I wouldn't say Forest city is Doing Nothing. Just because these national chains are interested doesn't mean they're ready to sign a lease and build out a new restaurant in TC. They probably want to see numbers, as in the increase in the number of patrons to Tower City after the Casino opens.  They probably want to see if there is an increase in traffic and what type of customer the Casino attracts before making any real decisions. So right now on Forest City's end there is a waiting game. I would assume that if a retailer was ready to sign, then they'd already be there, Forest City may be bad at Mall management but I'd doubt they'd pass on someone who is ready to give them money.

 

Didn't the Neiman Marcus deal hinge on the Rock Hall being attached to Tower City? Who knows maybe if things pan out they may end up here. I remember a discussion I had with Wayne Hussey from NM who said that they were looking at development opportunities in the Cleveland Market, but of course that comment could mean a million things.

I was very disappointed with the answers that came out of this interview... I had hoped something was already in the works for TC in the near term, but the cold reality is setting in. Not surprising he mentions the United hub since he sounded as lukewarm on Cleveland as United CEO Jeff Smisek.  I guess we're "going to have to earn" our Tower City every day...

I was very disappointed with the answers that came out of this interview... I had hoped something was already in the works for TC in the near term, but the cold reality is setting in. Not surprising he mentions the United hub since he sounded as lukewarm on Cleveland as United CEO Jeff Smisek.  I guess we're "going to have to earn" our Tower City every day...

[glow=red,2,300]

Like I said, they don't know how to manage a mall![/glow]

 

I wouldn't say Forest city is Doing Nothing. Just because these national chains are interested doesn't mean they're ready to sign a lease and build out a new restaurant in TC. They probably want to see numbers, as in the increase in the number of patrons to Tower City after the Casino opens.  They probably want to see if there is an increase in traffic and what type of customer the Casino attracts before making any real decisions. So right now on Forest City's end there is a waiting game. I would assume that if a retailer was ready to sign, then they'd already be there, Forest City may be bad at Mall management but I'd doubt they'd pass on someone who is ready to give them money.

 

Didn't the Neiman Marcus deal hinge on the Rock Hall being attached to Tower City? Who knows maybe if things pan out they may end up here. I remember a discussion I had with Wayne Hussey from NM who said that they were looking at development opportunities in the Cleveland Market, but of course that comment could mean a million things.

Neiman Marcus was the 2nd tenant to TC.  They were to wait until the final location of the RRHF to be set before they could decide on the size of their store.  NM was to be the anchor of the 2nd phase.  The phase never built!

 

 

"We had a vibrant downtown retail department store business. We had Barneys of New York, and we had Polo. We had the first  Store in Northeast Ohio. We had a letter of intent with Neiman Marcus to put a department store in downtown Cleveland."  UGH  :'( 

 

I have a question, does anyone know about how many downtown residents there were around the time of Tower City's opening?

 

 

Polo?  He had no Ralph Lauren store in TC.  We had the first Barney's in the Midwest!  Our Barney's opened before Chicago.  However, Barney's management ran that brand into the ground. IIRC, that letter of intent is what is keeping NM from building elsewhere in Ohio.  In addition, I think it keeps them from building in Indiana and Wester PA.

 

There were only a couple of thousand people in Downtown at the time.  The Warehouse District was mostly clubs, bars and porno shops.  Most of TC traffic at that time was daytime workers, weekend shoppers and bus tours from all over.  The weekends were bananas.

I was very disappointed with the answers that came out of this interview... I had hoped something was already in the works for TC in the near term, but the cold reality is setting in. Not surprising he mentions the United hub since he sounded as lukewarm on Cleveland as United CEO Jeff Smisek.  I guess we're "going to have to earn" our Tower City every day...

 

Agreed.  His answer to staying in CLE was pretty tepid.  Oh well, such is the noncommittal role of today's business leaders.

Tired of the hub excuse.  You don't see Heinz, Alcoa, PPG or PNC threatening to leave Pittsburgh...or P&G bolting Cincinnati because of their recent loss of airport hubs...!

 

I was very disappointed with the answers that came out of this interview... I had hoped something was already in the works for TC in the near term, but the cold reality is setting in. Not surprising he mentions the United hub since he sounded as lukewarm on Cleveland as United CEO Jeff Smisek.  I guess we're "going to have to earn" our Tower City every day...

 

Agreed.  His answer to staying in CLE was pretty tepid.  Oh well, such is the noncommittal role of today's business leaders.

Tired of the hub excuse.  You don't see Heinz, Alcoa, PPG or PNC threatening to leave Pittsburgh...or P&G bolting Cincinnati because of their recent loss of airport hubs...!

 

 

Honestly, other businesses in cities have used that excuse, we just don't hear about like they dont hear about us.  I know for sure that a certain company has discussed relocating for a certain city because of the loss of a hub.

I'm sure you are right.  I know Chiquita mentioned it when they left Cincy for Charlotte.

"We had a vibrant downtown retail department store business. We had Barneys of New York, and we had Polo. We had the first  Store in Northeast Ohio. We had a letter of intent with Neiman Marcus to put a department store in downtown Cleveland."  UGH  :'( 

 

I have a question, does anyone know about how many downtown residents there were around the time of Tower City's opening?

 

 

Polo?  He had no Ralph Lauren store in TC.  We had the first Barney's in the Midwest!  Our Barney's opened before Chicago.  However, Barney's management ran that brand into the ground. IIRC, that letter of intent is what is keeping NM from building elsewhere in Ohio.  In addition, I think it keeps them from building in Indiana and Wester PA.

 

There were only a couple of thousand people in Downtown at the time.  The Warehouse District was mostly clubs, bars and porno shops.  Most of TC traffic at that time was daytime workers, weekend shoppers and bus tours from all over.  The weekends were bananas.

 

You mean that letter of intent still holds up today?  Not that they're waiting to build in Cleveland, but something like that would still have effects?

 

And thanks for the info about DT population.  Sorry if I am stating the obvious but I'm not from here:  It seems like TC was ahead of its time.  Even though it was a gigantic project, the rest of downtown wasn't yet ready to support it.  Even with today's 10,000 or so residents I think TC with its original lineup would do so much better now...  I know I saw a picture from the 1990's of Euclid avenue looking down from the BP Building east and the area looked completely desolate and abandoned, absolutely nothing like today.  I think so much was put into TC at the time that the rest of town seemed to be forgotten.

It's funny because when I moved to Columbus in 1991 it seemed like their downtown mall - City Center - had so much going on...including a Gucci, Polo, Armani Exchange, Fendi, Henri Bendel, etc.  It also had three solid anchor stores in Marshall Field's, Lazarus and Jacobson's. 

 

Now instead of Marshall Field's, it IS a field. 

 

At least Tower City is still standing.  I predict a big upswing once the casino is up and running.  Dan Gilbert won't have it any other way.

It's funny because when I moved to Columbus in 1991 it seemed like their downtown mall - City Center - had so much going on...including a Gucci, Polo, Armani Exchange, Fendi, Henri Bendel, etc.  It also had three solid anchor stores in Marshall Field's, Lazarus and Jacobson's. 

 

Now instead of Marshall Field's, it IS a field. 

 

At least Tower City is still standing.  I predict a big upswing once the casino is up and running.  Dan Gilbert won't have it any other way.

And just like in cleveland those stores closed.  I don't think Columbus was ready.  Cleveland was ahead of its time and as ive said earlier.

 

Both had stores that went bankrupt, like Gucci that had nothing to do with the local market spending ability.  Bendel's is a Columbus based HQ store and that the only reason it was built.

 

[glow=red,2,300]

Like I said, they don't know how to manage a mall![/glow]

 

I think that's an unfair statement. FC owns and manages major retail centers across the country. They do know how to do retail. Now, locally, TC might've had some bad management but the company as a whole is pretty successful when it comes to retail management. They have some fairly upscale malls and lifestyle centers in their portfolio that they do manage.

 

I wouldn't say Forest city is Doing Nothing. Just because these national chains are interested doesn't mean they're ready to sign a lease and build out a new restaurant in TC. They probably want to see numbers, as in the increase in the number of patrons to Tower City after the Casino opens.  They probably want to see if there is an increase in traffic and what type of customer the Casino attracts before making any real decisions. So right now on Forest City's end there is a waiting game. I would assume that if a retailer was ready to sign, then they'd already be there, Forest City may be bad at Mall management but I'd doubt they'd pass on someone who is ready to give them money.

 

Didn't the Neiman Marcus deal hinge on the Rock Hall being attached to Tower City? Who knows maybe if things pan out they may end up here. I remember a discussion I had with Wayne Hussey from NM who said that they were looking at development opportunities in the Cleveland Market, but of course that comment could mean a million things.

 

 

Neiman Marcus was the 2nd tenant to TC.  They were to wait until the final location of the RRHF to be set before they could decide on the size of their store.  NM was to be the anchor of the 2nd phase.  The phase never built!

 

I think things would've been completely different for TC had that second phase gotten built. I don't think it would've suffered that much of a decline as NM would've been a great regional draw. NM has always looked at Cleveland as a potentially strong market - Beachwood was home to the Galleries prototype for many years.

 

When TC became largely just another mall, that's when the novelty wore off. There was little reason for a suburbanite to go there when it offered the same stores that the burbs did. Throw in retail bankruptcies and the place was doomed.

 

 

 

[glow=red,2,300]

Like I said, they don't know how to manage a mall![/glow]

 

I think that's an unfair statement. FC owns and manages major retail centers across the country. They do know how to do retail. Now, locally, TC might've had some bad management but the company as a whole is pretty successful when it comes to retail management. They have some fairly upscale malls and lifestyle centers in their portfolio that they do manage.

 

I wouldn't say Forest city is Doing Nothing. Just because these national chains are interested doesn't mean they're ready to sign a lease and build out a new restaurant in TC. They probably want to see numbers, as in the increase in the number of patrons to Tower City after the Casino opens.  They probably want to see if there is an increase in traffic and what type of customer the Casino attracts before making any real decisions. So right now on Forest City's end there is a waiting game. I would assume that if a retailer was ready to sign, then they'd already be there, Forest City may be bad at Mall management but I'd doubt they'd pass on someone who is ready to give them money.

 

Didn't the Neiman Marcus deal hinge on the Rock Hall being attached to Tower City? Who knows maybe if things pan out they may end up here. I remember a discussion I had with Wayne Hussey from NM who said that they were looking at development opportunities in the Cleveland Market, but of course that comment could mean a million things.

 

 

Neiman Marcus was the 2nd tenant to TC.  They were to wait until the final location of the RRHF to be set before they could decide on the size of their store.  NM was to be the anchor of the 2nd phase.  The phase never built!

 

I think things would've been completely different for TC had that second phase gotten built. I don't think it would've suffered that much of a decline as NM would've been a great regional draw. NM has always looked at Cleveland as a potentially strong market - Beachwood was home to the Galleries prototype for many years.

 

When TC became largely just another mall, that's when the novelty wore off. There was little reason for a suburbanite to go there when it offered the same stores that the burbs did. Throw in retail bankruptcies and the place was doomed.

 

 

 

This is where we're going to disagree.  They own a portfolio of crappy 2nd/3rd tier malls.  I'm a Shopaholic and I wouldn't bother to spit on, let alone, shop in any of their malls!  The two malls they do not manage are high end.  So I'll slightly change my previous statement to[glow=red,2,300] FC does not know to manage an UPSCALE mall![/glow]

 

The Galleries store was there just to get NM into the Midwest market.    The Closest NM are in DC, Detroit & Chicago (2).  The Detroit store open only because the Cleveland store did not.  Cleveland was suppose to be their 25 store and there was suppose to be a big nationwide tie-in with all the stores that were open at the time.  I clearly remember the "Rock Neimans in Cleveland" teasers!

 

I would love to have a needless Markup, but right now Bloomingdales Type 2 store is a better fit for Cleveland.  If I was TC, I would entice Barney's to come back as Cleveland shoppers are more east coast centric in their shopping.

 

You're correct in saying when the Big draw stores had financial problems (Barney's, Gucci, H20, Joan & David, & Fendi (Our Fendi was a franchise), it doomed TC and helped Beachwood make their expansion realistic.

Out of curiosity, What was phase two supposed to be?

Out of curiosity, What was phase two supposed to be?

 

If my memory serves me correctly

• One Anchor Department store - NM (there was discussion this would change to two (Bloomies) when the rock hall moved)
  
• One mid range office Tower
  
• One hotel Tower - Westin
  
• One Residential Tower
  
• More upscale retail
  

What I cannot remember is, if the office/hotel tower was the same tower.  I really think there was suppose to be office on the lower with the hotel on top.

^ Completely agree that Bloomies is a much better fit for the region.

 

I just think blaming FC is the easy way out. I truly think that the Cleveland can't support an ultra luxury mall. And don't say its because I have bad taste - I shop at Bloomies, Barney's, NM, and many of the luxury chains you've mentioned in various threads when I'm out of town. And as mentioned before Beachwood is nice, but its not a luxury mall.

 

I think if the market could truly sustain luxury retail, these retailers would already be in the region, whether in the Beachwood area or someplace else. I find it hard to believe that GGP and its predecessor, Rouse haven't tried to lure those stores to Beachwood, yet the luxury chains have largely ignored it. Why is that? Do GGP and Rouse not know how to run upscale malls too (their record says otherwise) or is it the market? If they won't come to Beachwood, why would they go to Tower City or downtown? If Beachwood can't sustain it, I don't see how Tower City could. Like it or not, Cleveland isn't Chicago and TC isn't Water Tower Place.

Out of curiosity, What was phase two supposed to be?

 

If my memory serves me correctly

• One Anchor Department store - NM (there was discussion this would change to two (Bloomies) when the rock hall moved)
  
• One mid range office Tower
  
• One hotel Tower - Westin
  
• One Residential Tower
  
• More upscale retail
  

What I cannot remember is, if the office/hotel tower was the same tower.  I really think there was suppose to be office on the lower with the hotel on top.

Did funding for this fizzle out or did the overall plans just change?

^^Is Water Tower Place that upscale?  It has been a LONG time since I have been in there.  While I recall it was very nice and higher end (Lord and Taylor's I believe which is no longer there), I do not recall that much "upscale shopping" as compared to other malls and stores directly on Michigan Avenue.

^^Is Water Tower Place that upscale?  It has been a LONG time since I have been in there.  While I recall it was very nice and higher end (Lord and Taylor's I believe which is no longer there), I do not recall that much "upscale shopping" as compared to other malls and stores directly on Michigan Avenue.

 

I wasn't really calling Water Tower upscale. My point was that Water Tower is thriving, TC is not. If NM had ever gotten built at TC, that's what I think Tower City would've become. A successful mixed use development and many of the retailers that ended up at Beachwood would've ended up at TC. Water Tower has some higher end shops but is largely sans luxury because of Michigan Ave.

^ Completely agree that Bloomies is a much better fit for the region.

 

I just think blaming FC is the easy way out. I truly think that the Cleveland can't support an ultra luxury mall. And don't say its because I have bad taste - I shop at Bloomies, Barney's, NM, and many of the luxury chains you've mentioned in various threads when I'm out of town. And as mentioned before Beachwood is nice, but its not a luxury mall.

 

I think if the market could truly sustain luxury retail, these retailers would already be in the region, whether in the Beachwood area or someplace else. I find it hard to believe that GGP and its predecessor, Rouse haven't tried to lure those stores to Beachwood, yet the luxury chains have largely ignored it. Why is that? Do GGP and Rouse not know how to run upscale malls too (their record says otherwise) or is it the market? If they won't come to Beachwood, why would they go to Tower City or downtown? If Beachwood can't sustain it, I don't see how Tower City could. Like it or not, Cleveland isn't Chicago and TC isn't Water Tower Place.

 

I'm calling a spade a spade!  Cleveland can support a luxury mall, we did in the past and can again.

 

Mall leasing (and I'm not expert on it) is tricky.  Many times Brand A wont come to your mall if its less than X space in size nor does it have X anchors.  Because Beachwood has a Nordstrom and Saks with Specialty stores in it, it's hard to get those free standing leases.  Please note, when TC opened, Severance, Randall & Beachwood were dead malls.  I rarely went Beachwood back then.  Because every thing I needed could be found in Higbee's Downtown or in TC.  Remember Higbee's was on par with *our* Saks as far as quality of clothing.

 

Beachwood is not big enough to accommodate any new stores, nor is it convenient to the Region as a whole. They would need to build a new wing.  I suspect that is why brand wont go there.

 

Secondly I dont want to compare Cleveland to Chicago or TC to WTP.  Personally I believe TC is much better looking mall than that black hole called WTP.  For christ sakes has a Macy's in it and that is an upgrade from the Lord & Taylor that it replaced!  Chile' Please! 

^^Is Water Tower Place that upscale?  It has been a LONG time since I have been in there.  While I recall it was very nice and higher end (Lord and Taylor's I believe which is no longer there), I do not recall that much "upscale shopping" as compared to other malls and stores directly on Michigan Avenue.

 

L&T is not high end.  Never has been It's an "american brand" department store.  For Clevelanders think May Co.

Let's bring it back to Tower City

WTP Lord & Taylor was replaced by the American Girl Doll store.  I could see one of those in Tower City and being a big regional draw.  The website says they are opening in St Louis which is closer to Chicagos than Cleveland so it seems feasible. (Marshall Fields there changed to Macy's).

WTP Lord & Taylor was replaced by the American Girl Doll store.  I could see one of those in Tower City and being a big regional draw.  The website says they are opening in St Louis which is closer to Chicagos than Cleveland so it seems feasible. (Marshall Fields there changed to Macy's).

 

I'm aware of all that.  You're talking to me!  LOL    OK Back to Tower City!

Quick WTP question I looked at pictures of it on Google and it seems huge how much of that space is retail but to bring it back to TC do you think Tower City was a good idea or do you think the city should have focused more on storefront retail down Euclid etc.?

I am sure I am in the minority on the board but I don't see the casino doing much to bring back upscale shopping to TC.  I do believe it will eventually result in "more shops" and perhaps even better shopping than is there now (which of course would not be difficult).  However, to draw the stores MTS would like (and boy would I personally like to see Barney's back) I think you need a regional draw department store such as Neimans.  I don't think FC has the power or the energy to bring them to the table. 

Do you think Tower City was a good idea or do you think the city should have focused more on storefront retail down Euclid etc.?

 

That's a big question that I'm sure could fill pages on here. I'm guessing that a concerted filling in of retail along Euclid would have taken a vast and time consuming amount of coordination among too many landlords.

 

I think TC was a great idea, and I will always remember the commercials. It was a great ad campaign and there was lot of pride attached to the mall. One thing I still admire is how the mall area is accessible late into the night.

 

What's strange to me is that TC seems like it should have had a large residential component attached; like there was a major missing component. I understand living downtown wasn't a priority back in the 90's. But something about the mall screams residential opportunity. There's a prominence about the place (despite sticky floor food court!) that is very appealing.

 

 

What's strange to me is that TC seems like it should have had a large residential component attached; like there was a major missing component. I understand living downtown wasn't a priority back in the 90's.

 

 

That's not correct. The 1990s is when downtown saw some of its greatest residential development and growth that spilled over into the 2000s.

 

There were five towers proposed along the south side of Huron plus a sixth where the Sherwin-Williams banner hangs today at Huron & Ontario. I recall that the towers were proposed as office and hotel but I don't recall specific plans for residential. I do agree that FCE should have emphasized residential more, but perhaps they couldn't make it work financially. The Crittenden Court apartment building was a very complicated financing package when it was assembled in 1994. I remember the Crain's article referring it to "baklava financing" because it had so many layers!

 

Oh, and for those of you who forgot what Tower City's late-1980s Riverview masterplan entailed, here it is......

 

A revamped Tower City aside, between Eton, Legacy, La Place and Beachwood Place - you'd think there were enough similar retailers/prime spaces/vacant spaces to attract other luxury retailers - and that the market size and relative wealth would ensure the job got done. However, Columbus, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh, for starters, have significantly more high-end retailers than Cleveland - and yet their metros can't compare in size, or presumably wealth, to NEO... I just don't get it... Most under-served luxury market in the USA, indeed...

 

 

^I don't know what Columbus has but I don't think high end when I think of that city.  Pittsburgh just lost their Saks and Indy just lost their downtown Nordstroms (although I think they have one in the burbs).

Htsguy: CMH/PIT/IND - high end retailers maybe not in every case - "upscale" probably more the right terms... see below

 

Pittsburgh has upscale/unique stores like Louis Vuitton (freestanding, CLE's is in Saks, though nice), Juicy Couture, Burberry, Tiffany & Co, MIchael Kors, Kate Spade, LL Bean, REI, etc, etc.. (most in a mall no better than Great Northern on the other end...). Yes, they lost Saks recently..  Columbus has much of the same above now or coming. Indy - lost downtown Nordstrom - but have much of the same above in their suburban "Fashion Mall"incl Nordstrom - and it's undergoing a significant expansion this year so more new will come.  Each of these metros has some 1MM fewer folks than NEO... Not even talking about major markets like PHL or ATL that we can't possibly compete with - and won't try to.

^Okay here is my theory why no free standing stores.  Stores like Burberry, Fendi, Gucci, Chanel are going to want to be located together and in Cleveland they are going to want to be on the east side...and guess what, there is no room at the usual suspects in most instances for multiple high end stores.  Since they are already selling their wares in the city at multiple locations, Saks, Nordstrom, some smaller boutiques (I bought my first Burberry coat at a small men's store on Shaker Square way back when) they figure why bother.

 

Edit:  LL Bean?

Yes - LL Bean has some full-line stores at places like Ross Park Mall in PIT and Old Orchard in Chicago... or perhaps the question is - "is that upscale?"... Either way - exclusive retailer not in a city like ours"

Ironically, today at work I overheard two older ladies talking about Tower city. Unfortunately for me, I have to work in the suburbs, which I would leave in half a second for the opportunity to work downtown! Being here though, I often hear negativity about going downtown. I was very surprised to hear one of the ladies talk about recently attending the film Festival, and she mentioned how gorgeous Tower city is and could be. They both were commenting on the casino, medical Mart, and other changes happening downtown, and we're both very hopeful that Tower city would soon attract a better mix of stores. I thought it was very encouraging to hear 2 suburbanites who I wouldn't think would care about shopping downtown, have a desire for Tower city to succeed. I definitely think if there was some sort of transformation, there would be a demand.

Ironically, today at work I overheard two older ladies talking about Tower city. Unfortunately for me, I have to work in the suburbs, which I would leave in half a second for the opportunity to work downtown! Being here though, I often hear negativity about going downtown. I was very surprised to hear one of the ladies talk about recently attending the film Festival, and she mentioned how gorgeous Tower city is and could be. They both were commenting on the casino, medical Mart, and other changes happening downtown, and we're both very hopeful that Tower city would soon attract a better mix of stores. I thought it was very encouraging to hear 2 suburbanites who I wouldn't think would care about shopping downtown, have a desire for Tower city to succeed. I definitely think if there was some sort of transformation, there would be a demand.

 

Heck, I work downtown and I hear the same commentary. Sometimes it's uplifting but other times talking to co-workers can be very draining.

 

KJP the TC Phase II riverfront plan is stunning. To me it would be prudent for Casino Phase II to use that as a model for their own dvelopment.

Yes - LL Bean has some full-line stores at places like Ross Park Mall in PIT and Old Orchard in Chicago... or perhaps the question is - "is that upscale?"... Either way - exclusive retailer not in a city like ours"

 

Cleveland is radically underserved on the luxury front...especially when it comes to places like Tiffany & Co.  And REI should have a store somewhere in NEO...it would definitely do well.

 

I know this is off topic but I was in the LL Bean at Old Orchard yesterday...the staff outnumbered the customers by about 4:1. 

I don't give that place a positive long term outlook.

It's funny because when I moved to Columbus in 1991 it seemed like their downtown mall - City Center - had so much going on...including a Gucci, Polo, Armani Exchange, Fendi, Henri Bendel, etc.  It also had three solid anchor stores in Marshall Field's, Lazarus and Jacobson's. 

 

Now instead of Marshall Field's, it IS a field. 

 

At least Tower City is still standing.  I predict a big upswing once the casino is up and running.  Dan Gilbert won't have it any other way.

And just like in cleveland those stores closed.  I don't think Columbus was ready.  Cleveland was ahead of its time and as ive said earlier.

 

Both had stores that went bankrupt, like Gucci that had nothing to do with the local market spending ability.  Bendel's is a Columbus based HQ store and that the only reason it was built.

 

You are right about Gucci.  There is a new Bendel's going in at Old Orchard here.  It would not have been in Columbus if it was not owned by Wexner/Limited.

ChiCleveKid: i felt the same way about LLBean at Old Orchard. Empty!!! I don't know why but keep wondering if REI might make an appearance in NEO soon. They are opening a Cincy store and have 2 in Pittsburgh. There is a just-vacant Filene's Basement at Harvard and 271 that I'm telepathically trying to will them towards. Similar to REI spots in Detroit, Pittaburgh, Cincy. As for Tiffany, rumor is this year....

To change the subject, the entire Higbee's side of the sidewalk outside Tower City was closed today.  Is this because they are starting to work on fixing up the sidewalks/etc. before the casino opens, or were they just fixing doors?  I'm hoping for the former and think it's more logical since they blocked off everything up to the street...