Atlanta Business Chronicle - by Urvaksh Karkaria Staff Writer

 

 

“They [NCR] can’t recruit talent to move to Dayton, Ohio,” the source said.

 

 

Yet Ohio graduates are leaving Ohio.  Are they not good enough for NCR, is NCR not good enough for them, or don't even Ohio natives want live in Ohio?

^ I didn't know they were hiring period.

 

 

Ohio need to goto all their f1000 companies and offer them all incentives to bring their production, distribution and advertising facilities inside Ohio.

Yet Ohio graduates are leaving Ohio.  Are they not good enough for NCR, is NCR not good enough for them, or don't even Ohio natives want live in Ohio?

 

Remember this isnt Ohio in general, this is Dayton Ohio.  I think things would be different in Columbus or Cincinnati.

 

To give you an idea of what a turn-off Dayton is over at City-Data I run across posts by people transferring here to work for the military or defense contractors (about the only thing brining in white collar work in this area), who are looking to live in either Cincy or Cols and commute in because they want to avoid the Dayton area.  This towns' rep is that bad.

 

 

Atlanta Business Chronicle - by Urvaksh Karkaria Staff Writer

 

 

They [NCR] cant recruit talent to move to Dayton, Ohio, the source said.

 

 

Yet Ohio graduates are leaving Ohio. Are they not good enough for NCR, is NCR not good enough for them, or don't even Ohio natives want live in Ohio?

 

I would guess that they have more trouble hiring experienced managers and executives from outside the region than they do college hires.  UD is right next door and quite a few graduates end up at NCR.

<rant>

I've been following corp hq changes in Ohio & Georgia, and specifically Cincinnati & Atlanta.  Over the past few years Ohio has lost many HQ due to mergers - Cleveland lost National City (to PNC in Pittsburgh), Columbus lost Wendy's (to Arby's in Atlanta), Cincinnati lost Cinergy (to Duke Energy in Charlotte).  On the plus side, Cincinnati, at least, has picked up some HQ operations via P&G merger with Gillette (Boston), FirstGroup (NA HQ beat Dallas & Chicago), and Macy's merged with May Dept Stores (Boston). 

 

What really stinks about this is that NCR is voluntarily picking up and moving.  Things must have been desperate.  While I agree that if NCR was located in Cincinnati/Columbus/Cleveland this may not have happened, NCR decided to exit the entire state, which indicates larger problems. 

 

Versus metro Atlanta, Ohio has substantial disadvantages.  Ohio's personal and business taxes are higher. Ohio is generally less business friendly.  Many people would say the weather is better in the South.  Atlanta, while not a cosmopolitan mecca, appears to have more cache than any of Ohio's cities.

 

Ohio state needs to be more pro-business.  Like it or not, large businesses provide many people good, well paying jobs.  They spur smaller businesses to be located nearby.  It's popular to blame "business" for the world's problems but I think we'd all agree that we dont like to see a business leave.  The consistency of lower taxes and fewer regulations will appeal to the business community more than one-time incentive packages. 

 

Dayton needs to stop the bleeding and focus on its strengths.  Make sure no other larger firms are looking to get out.  Build on the strengths of Wright-Patt and the variety of aviation related businesses, museums, and history in the area.  Focus on being the country's aviation headquarters.

 

Cincinnati is clearly in better shape than Dayton.  For starters, the metro population is growing somewhat.  But some of the larger HQ are in jeopardy - Chiquita has looked at Atlanta and Orlando in the past, Fifth-Third is relatively small and would be an easy acquisition target, and Macy's could easily move their back office jobs to an area closer to their main HQ in NY.  Cincy (and the other bigger Ohio cities) should take note of some of the challenges that NCR mentioned - recruiting, talent, etc - and try to get ahead of the curve before they become victims of a corporate exodus.

 

Lastly, Ohio and it's cities need to market themselves better.  They need POSITIVE news.  If there's no positive news, generate some.  Mayor Mallory in Cincy has been accused of being too focused on marketing, yet I think that marketing is critical - it may be Cincinnati's biggest problem.  Getting Ohio's cities off of the bottom of the Forbes' "Best Places" lists WILL make a difference.  Heck, even some winning sports teams would help get some positive news. 

</end rant> thanks for reading

This is poaching at its worst and metro Atlanta has always been one of the most agressive regions.  State leaders better come up with a better plan to counter any offers in the future and get better information - to not have a face to face meeting with the CEO until the decision was already made is terrible.  Hopefully the company goes belly-up prior to Duluth getting any kind of ROI.

...and thank you for contributing!

Sometimes big moves like this actually mean a company is in far worse shape than folks realize - they are using the fact of gaming the tax laws to pad their bottom line - lots of mergers follow similar rationales.

<rant>

I've been following corp hq changes in Ohio & Georgia, and specifically Cincinnati & Atlanta.  Over the past few years Ohio has lost many HQ due to mergers - Cleveland lost National City (to PNC in Pittsburgh), Columbus lost Wendy's (to Arby's in Atlanta), Cincinnati lost Cinergy (to Duke Energy in Charlotte).  On the plus side, Cincinnati, at least, has picked up some HQ operations via P&G merger with Gillette (Boston), FirstGroup (NA HQ beat Dallas & Chicago), and Macy's merged with May Dept Stores (Boston). 

 

What really stinks about this is that NCR is voluntarily picking up and moving.  Things must have been desperate.  While I agree that if NCR was located in Cincinnati/Columbus/Cleveland this may not have happened, NCR decided to exit the entire state, which indicates larger problems. 

 

Versus metro Atlanta, Ohio has substantial disadvantages.  Ohio's personal and business taxes are higher. Ohio is generally less business friendly.  Many people would say the weather is better in the South.  Atlanta, while not a cosmopolitan mecca, appears to have more cache than any of Ohio's cities.

 

Ohio state needs to be more pro-business.  Like it or not, large businesses provide many people good, well paying jobs.  They spur smaller businesses to be located nearby.  It's popular to blame "business" for the world's problems but I think we'd all agree that we dont like to see a business leave.  The consistency of lower taxes and fewer regulations will appeal to the business community more than one-time incentive packages. 

 

Dayton needs to stop the bleeding and focus on its strengths.  Make sure no other larger firms are looking to get out.  Build on the strengths of Wright-Patt and the variety of aviation related businesses, museums, and history in the area.  Focus on being the country's aviation headquarters.

 

Cincinnati is clearly in better shape than Dayton.  For starters, the metro population is growing somewhat.  But some of the larger HQ are in jeopardy - Chiquita has looked at Atlanta and Orlando in the past, Fifth-Third is relatively small and would be an easy acquisition target, and Macy's could easily move their back office jobs to an area closer to their main HQ in NY.  Cincy (and the other bigger Ohio cities) should take note of some of the challenges that NCR mentioned - recruiting, talent, etc - and try to get ahead of the curve before they become victims of a corporate exodus.

 

Lastly, Ohio and it's cities need to market themselves better.  They need POSITIVE news.  If there's no positive news, generate some.  Mayor Mallory in Cincy has been accused of being too focused on marketing, yet I think that marketing is critical - it may be Cincinnati's biggest problem.  Getting Ohio's cities off of the bottom of the Forbes' "Best Places" lists WILL make a difference.  Heck, even some winning sports teams would help get some positive news. 

</end rant> thanks for reading

 

Atlanta has probably lost more Corporate HQ's than any city in the U.S. Bell South, Georgia Pacific, Scientific Atlanta, etc, just to name three. Macy's isn't going anywhere, they just transferred employees and company assets from Atlanta, Miami and other offices to Cincinnati when the regional offices were closed. Nobody wants to lose a company but at least it wasn't a healthy growing company, NCR has been cutting employees for many years due to lost contracts and just overall bad management decisions that started before (and continue to this day) they were purchased by at&t, they have really suffered as of late. Who knows why Fernando made public that Chiquita was weighing their options when their lease expired, (incentives?) at the time he was building a ten thousand sq ft house in Indian Hills. If Seattle, Atlanta and Boston can survive after losing multiple companies, Dayton will be just fine without NCR. You would have thought georgia would throw money at the textile industry that has shed tens of thousands of jobs in georgia and more in N.C. But why throw money at your problems when you can throw it at someone else's.  :| Atlanta has always benefited at the expense of the rest of the state, possibly an easier decision when there is only one metro area in the state.

 

Any questions about Ohio's commitment to business or vice versa, check out this website: http://www.ohiomeansbusiness.com/why/governorscup.php

BBC -  you are right that some ATL based companies have been purchased by a larger parent company (AT&T bought Bell South, Koch Industries bought G-P, Cisco bought Scientific Atlanta).  However, all of the subsidiary HQs are still based in Atlanta.  From an employment standpoint it appears that - aside from some behind the scenes jobs - the employment base hasn't changed substantially.  In other words, even though those companies were acquired, the parent companies did not run away from Atlanta. 

 

At the same time, a number of mid-size and large firms have moved their HQ to ATL.  Just a couple of months ago, a $1 BN firm, Gentiva of Long Island, NY announced they were moving to Atlanta.  I'm not aware of any mid-to-large companies that have moved headquarters to Ohio recently.

 

Regarding the Governor's Cup link, my understanding of that award is that it is based the number of any type of facility or other operation constructed in a given metro area.  These projects are important, but not as important as corporate headquarters. HQ provide substantial tax revenue via substantially higher paid people, support for the community (Arts, schools, etc), potential high-rise buildings, and the somewhat intangible "cache" and credibility (the HQ city name on products, TV, newspapers, etc).

 

The Gov Cup projects, I believe, mostly provide normal manufacturing/distribution type jobs, that probably pay $30-40 K.  These are good, important jobs, but the NCR jobs are better from a government revenue standpoint.  NCR is a dying company - no disagreement there - but even NCR was able to offer 1,200 jobs paying nearly $80 K each.  Highly paid professionals provide tax revenue which allows the city to re-invest in infrastructure and services, which creates a positive feedback loop.  The killer part about NCR is that Georgia will actually make money on the deal (the tax on the NCR guaranteed jobs will exceed the tax incentive).  From a Georgia taxpayer standpoint, it's a win-win for them.  From our standpoint, it sucks.

 

voyager654321, welcome to urbanohio!  Very thoughtful first post.  I agree with most of what you said, still the $60 million to poach from Ohio really seems like dirty pool on Georgia's part.

Atlanta reminds me of what one of the greatest economic development minds of our day once said..

 

The places where the corporate headquarters locate will end up becoming the next failure. Corporate HQs attract large quantities of middle management workers who strive to keep their jobs and avoid innovation. Innovation is the key to new investment and job growth. It is all cyclical. This is not good for Ohio now, but Georgia should not get so cocky. They'll be the first to fall hard in late 2010s.

Atlanta seems like one big Ponzi scheme. Needing to bring in companies to keep the scheme going.

BBC -  you are right that some ATL based companies have been purchased by a larger parent company (AT&T bought Bell South, Koch Industries bought G-P, Cisco bought Scientific Atlanta).   However, all of the subsidiary HQs are still based in Atlanta.  From an employment standpoint it appears that - aside from some behind the scenes jobs - the employment base hasn't changed substantially.  In other words, even though those companies were acquired, the parent companies did not run away from Atlanta.  

 

At the same time, a number of mid-size and large firms have moved their HQ to ATL.  Just a couple of months ago, a $1 BN firm, Gentiva of Long Island, NY announced they were moving to Atlanta.  I'm not aware of any mid-to-large companies that have moved headquarters to Ohio recently.

 

Regarding the Governor's Cup link, my understanding of that award is that it is based the number of any type of facility or other operation constructed in a given metro area.  These projects are important, but not as important as corporate headquarters. HQ provide substantial tax revenue via substantially higher paid people, support for the community (Arts, schools, etc), potential high-rise buildings, and the somewhat intangible "cache" and credibility (the HQ city name on products, TV, newspapers, etc).

 

The Gov Cup projects, I believe, mostly provide normal manufacturing/distribution type jobs, that probably pay $30-40 K.  These are good, important jobs, but the NCR jobs are better from a government revenue standpoint.  NCR is a dying company - no disagreement there - but even NCR was able to offer 1,200 jobs paying nearly $80 K each.  Highly paid professionals provide tax revenue which allows the city to re-invest in infrastructure and services, which creates a positive feedback loop.  The killer part about NCR is that Georgia will actually make money on the deal (the tax on the NCR guaranteed jobs will exceed the tax incentive).  From a Georgia taxpayer standpoint, it's a win-win for them.  From our standpoint, it sucks.

 

 

If you researched the Governor's Cup you would see there are strict criteria which must be met, so it's not based on 'any type' of facility. There is no doubt NCR will keep offices in Dayton, so they aren't completely leaving, (They may want to come back). Formica found the grass wasn't greener on the other side so they moved back to Cincinnati from New Jersey. I don't know why you haven't heard about companies moving to Ohio because I often hear about European & Middle Eastern companies setting up offices in Ohio, using the same press release: Location Location Location... Unfortunately foreign companies are high growth companies compared to american companies. 'Old school' companies like Bell South Georgia Pacific, NCR, & GM are struggling while smaller more nimble companies are picking or have picked them apart. Of course there are exceptions to this rule like P&G but they are an exception to most rules anyway, 'but' another american company (Gillette) paid the price. 

 

Do you realize that tens of thousands have been left unemployed in Georgia from the loss of those companies, sure they kept a presence but nothing like what they were. Bell South, Georgia Pacific and Scientific Atlanta had the vast majority of all their office jobs in Atlanta, today they have been reduced to regional offices. How often do you see NCR on tv or a product?  NCR dropped of the community support radar years ago, they are nothing like what they once were, they don't want high-rise offices, they want suburban office campuses, (AKA sprawl). The company has been battered, bought, and broken up to the point of no identity. AT&T has wreaked havoc across the country... although its entirely not their fault. Not having the corporate office of a company doesn't translate into no community support, e.g, PNC Bank. PNC has their name all over Cincinnati in the form of community support and they completely renovated their offices in the PNC Center about three years ago, they are more involved than 5/3. Duke Energy is the same way, Duke is actually more involved than Cinergy was. All in all it's sad to see a company uproot themselves, but considering the track they have been on the past decade, who really wants to be there when they crash because it will be just another sad day for america.

Atlanta seems like one big Ponzi scheme. Needing to bring in companies to keep the scheme going.

 

That's not funny because it could lead to economical disaster but I'm laughing because it is...

Atlanta seems like one big Ponzi scheme. Needing to bring in companies to keep the scheme going.

 

Quote of the year.

Atlanta seems like one big Ponzi scheme. Needing to bring in companies to keep the scheme going.

 

Reminds me of the Utah politicians (speaking in favor of a transit tax proposal) who said that it wouldn't cost as much per household as people thought because, with population growth, there would be more households to pay off the debt!

 

As long as you keep growing, it appears you're OK.

Just wait until Atlanta and the rest of the Sun Belt run out of drinking water. All those "rust belt" states bordering the Great Lakes may have the last laugh.

I know the Cincy crowd loves to hate Atlanta, but I have to tell you, that city has got something going on.  They have heavy rail, are densifying their urban core at a serious rate, and have a strong entrepreneurial base.  Consider, for example, the upstart Intercontential Exchange (ICE) that has become a fierce competitor in the financial exchanges market - founded and HQ's in Atlanta.  Home Depot is a product of the 1970's, not the 1870's.  They've got their problems and challenges to be sure, but dismissing a metro area that grew from 2 million to 5 million in 30 years as a Ponzi scheme is way too simplisitic.

 

Ask Randy what he thinks of Atlanta, he'll probably give a more balanced view of its pros and cons.

 

I have to be honest, stories about big companies pulling up stakes and relocating out of the region are really bothersome to me.  It's one thing to see manufacturing move overseas or struggling companies downsize, but it's a real gut punch when you are just summarily divorced. Dayton is obviously a place with huge challenges, but make no mistake this is even more pain for the whole Midwest and its reputation.

For the midwest's sake these types of economic events must stop. The region as a whole continues to be home to less and less Fortune 500 companies as well as many other things. It not just the job loss, its the philanthropy, the clout, the image problem its creates and the ability to attract support companies and spin-offs. There are reasons why companies and people are moving to places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Texas, Denver, etc.... in large numbers (you can blow it off but, it doesn't change reality). The midwest as a whole has got to figure this out and adjust (not just hope people will need to move back to have water or other resources - which may or may not happen some day). While many of these places may have sprawl issues (so do most midwest city) they also are densifying quickly and are creating vibrant urban environments that are attracting a large chunk of the country's talent and financial capital.

^^ There is no need to turn this into a hate thread! Anyone who hasn't noticed the issues facing atlanta with the loss of some of those companies mentioned earlier in this thread are in denial. NCR will never regain for atlanta what has been lost, no matter how much they want that to happen, they are replacing dead companies with a dying company. When NCR mentioned home depot and sun trust bank as their largest clients, that was a red flag as to where they stand in their market. When a company has been selling assets for years to maintain the bottom line something isn't right, and that's exactly what NCR has been doing, it's the equivalent of selling your house and moving to low income housing. American companies are collapsing at an alarming rate as international companies continue to prosper at the expense of the U.S. Any company who decides to setup shop in georgia will be in some way connected to atlanta for the fact that is the capital city and the only metro are in the entire state. In Ohio, companies may have extensive operations in Cleveland, Columbus or Cincinnati and the other metro would never know the difference. When you are a one horse state such as Georgia its easy to put you eggs into one basket, for states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, or Missouri with multiple metros its impossible! If every metros newspaper in Ohio headlined every expansion or relocation in the state, Ohio will be known as the Dubai of North America. And besides Ohio's basket is not in the capital city, its in Newark! Am I the only person disturbed by the fact Hummer is being sold to a Chinese company? I know that's an off topic question but it underscores the problems facing the U.S. with no realistic solution.

In general, a lot of the movement of corporate offices is part of the natural creative destruction of corporate capitalism. I mean Ohio has to watch a little since we are getting a lot of jobs from elsewhere with Chase's massive expansion in the Columbus area which is mostly former WaMu positions. This just seems like one of those especially egregious examples of corporate malfeasance. I'm guessing there were voices in the company that acknowledge the poor prospects for the company going forward and hoped that a reboot in Atlanta would help change things. It seems like an odd place for an ATM company to go since the Midwest has relatively healthy banks compared to the Atlanta area which has some of the highest bank failure rates in the country since this econ. crisis hit.

Isn't NCR's biggest business these days Teradata?

 

Isn't NCR's biggest business these days Teradata?

 

 

They were the most profitable unit of NCR, that is why they were spun off to an independent company in 2007. They are located in Miamisburg. It wouldn't surprise me if NCR doesn't become a unit of Teradata sometime in the future, they are currently a growing company.

If NCR truly is failing, maybe it's a blessing in disguise that Ohio didn't get the opportunity to throw (away) a bunch of money at them.

It makes you wonder why Georgia didn't go after a company in Falif with many F500 companies yet chooses a city with it's last f500 company to be had and a state that's been draining jobs. They want to throw a dagger into Ohio. I think Ohio needs to do the same to them and start taking their companies with HUGE incentives.

Georgia doesn't care where they came from. They did have a lot of staff there already. If a Calif. or NYC came them looking to move they would throw money their way as well.

WOW stimulus money help this deal go through.

Ironically there was a lot of speculation that Terradata was a likely prospect for relocating to Atlanta.  Yet they are staying put for now.

 

Locally, the rumor mill has it that Lexis Nexis or Reynolds & Reynolds are the next likely suspects to leave...the buzz more around Lexis Nexis. 

 

Looks like Dayton will be end up with a set of vacant corporate campuses to add to its collection of vacant factories.

 

 

Lexis Nexis is a big supporter of the Cityfolk Festival they have downtown every year.  They are a sponsor and their people work the beer trucks and tickets as volunteers.  Losing them could well mean the end of this festival.

 

The loss of this corporate presence means the loss of corporate philanthropy.  This supports cultural things like the performing arts, festivals, museums, etc.  So a city that loses these things becomes more provincial and diminished, and the quality of life degrades a bit more.

 

 

So it's fortunate Cincinnati is close by as that city isnt seeing the same kind of threat to its philanthropic base.

I think LexisNexis has their largest office in Dayton but they have offices and executives all across the country. The rumors probably stem from the company reorganization Reed Elsevier announced a couple years ago. LexisNexis is a division of London based Reed Elsevier.

If you researched the Governor's Cup you would see there are strict criteria which must be met, so it's not based on 'any type' of facility. There is no doubt NCR will keep offices in Dayton, so they aren't completely leaving, (They may want to come back). Formica found the grass wasn't greener on the other side so they moved back to Cincinnati from New Jersey. I don't know why you haven't heard about companies moving to Ohio because I often hear about European & Middle Eastern companies setting up offices in Ohio, using the same press release: Location Location Location...

 

My point about the Governor's Cup is that the projects that they measure are simply not as valuable as Corporate HQ projects.  Their website indicates the vast majority of projects on their list are related to manufacturing and/or distribution.  We may have to agree to disagree on this.  Regarding NCR coming back to Dayton, I think that's a near zero chance.  They're selling their building and intend to maintain only a sales office and data center.  Bill Nuti said there would be less than 50 people in Dayton.  I'd guess they have field offices in other cities that will be larger than Dayton's.

 

I'm not aware of any Middle Eastern companies setting up in the region.  I have heard that Tata (a major Indian company) is intending to open a facility north of Cincinnati, but that's all I've heard.

 

Regarding the thousands of unemployed in Atlanta that you refer to, I dont have any idea what you're talking about.  All of the companies that you mentioned are still based in Atlanta.  They simply have a corporate parent.  They're still in the city employing more or less the same as they had before.  Where are you getting your data from? 

 

Some posts have indicated the Atlanta move as a "Ponzi" scheme. I dont agree with this thinking.  Georgia has said that the net of tax revenues from NCR will exceed the tax breaks.  So the state is providing a huge incentive program and the state of GA is still making money on the deal!  Unfortunately the situation in Dayton appears more to resemble a Ponzi scheme.  With a major loss of tax base, who will pay the bills in Dayton? 

 

I dont think there's any way to put lipstick on this pig.  The NCR move is bad for Dayton and Ohio.  But we need to move past this as soon as possible.  As I mentioned in my first post, Ohio's cities should focus on the fundamentals - dont lose any more HQ, lower business & personal taxes, build on their strengths, and market themselves better.  The best way to stop this "poaching" is to lower the tax rates.  Lower tax rates in Ohio would reduce the success rate of incentive programs, such as those in Georgia.

 

I'll also add two other thoughts:  It seems that Ohio's cities don't act in the best interests of their region. Each level of government and municipality seems to look out for themselves.  If the cities acted regionally, and showcased the regions' strengths, I think that would be huge.  Second - why doesn't the state provide some type of incentives for the NCR workers to stay in Ohio?  Specifically, offer an incentive for former NCR (or any other) workers who start a small business.  Keep the talent in the region.  We don't need to make it easy for NCR!

 

I'd just hand out the license plate numbers for all corporate execs at NCR and hand out enough tickets over the next couple months before they leave to pay for all the lost tax revenue. I'd send the buildings inspections folks into their buildings and tie every sale up in court. I'd call the Ohio EPA and see if any of their old manufacturing sites might be Superfund worthy. You name the gov't harassment, I'd being doing it if I was Dayton.

My point about the Governor's Cup is that the projects that they measure are simply not as valuable as Corporate HQ projects. Their website indicates the vast majority of projects on their list are related to manufacturing and/or distribution. We may have to agree to disagree on this.   Regarding NCR coming back to Dayton, I think that's a near zero chance. They're selling their building and intend to maintain only a sales office and data center. Bill Nuti said there would be less than 50 people in Dayton. I'd guess they have field offices in other cities that will be larger than Dayton's.

 

I'm not aware of any Middle Eastern companies setting up in the region. I have heard that Tata (a major Indian company) is intending to open a facility north of Cincinnati, but that's all I've heard.

 

Regarding the thousands of unemployed in Atlanta that you refer to, I dont have any idea what you're talking about. All of the companies that you mentioned are still based in Atlanta. They simply have a corporate parent. They're still in the city employing more or less the same as they had before. Where are you getting your data from?

 

Some posts have indicated the Atlanta move as a "Ponzi" scheme. I dont agree with this thinking. Georgia has said that the net of tax revenues from NCR will exceed the tax breaks. So the state is providing a huge incentive program and the state of GA is still making money on the deal! Unfortunately the situation in Dayton appears more to resemble a Ponzi scheme. With a major loss of tax base, who will pay the bills in Dayton?

 

I dont think there's any way to put lipstick on this pig. The NCR move is bad for Dayton and Ohio. But we need to move past this as soon as possible. As I mentioned in my first post, Ohio's cities should focus on the fundamentals - dont lose any more HQ, lower business & personal taxes, build on their strengths, and market themselves better. The best way to stop this "poaching" is to lower the tax rates. Lower tax rates in Ohio would reduce the success rate of incentive programs, such as those in Georgia.

If you researched the Governor's Cup you would see there are strict criteria which must be met, so it's not based on 'any type' of facility. There is no doubt NCR will keep offices in Dayton, so they aren't completely leaving, (They may want to come back). Formica found the grass wasn't greener on the other side so they moved back to Cincinnati from New Jersey. I don't know why you haven't heard about companies moving to Ohio because I often hear about European & Middle Eastern companies setting up offices in Ohio, using the same press release: Location Location Location...

 

My point about the Governor's Cup is that the projects that they measure are simply not as valuable as Corporate HQ projects. Their website indicates the vast majority of projects on their list are related to manufacturing and/or distribution. We may have to agree to disagree on this.   Regarding NCR coming back to Dayton, I think that's a near zero chance. They're selling their building and intend to maintain only a sales office and data center. Bill Nuti said there would be less than 50 people in Dayton. I'd guess they have field offices in other cities that will be larger than Dayton's.

 

I'm not aware of any Middle Eastern companies setting up in the region. I have heard that Tata (a major Indian company) is intending to open a facility north of Cincinnati, but that's all I've heard.

 

Regarding the thousands of unemployed in Atlanta that you refer to, I dont have any idea what you're talking about. All of the companies that you mentioned are still based in Atlanta. They simply have a corporate parent. They're still in the city employing more or less the same as they had before. Where are you getting your data from?

 

Some posts have indicated the Atlanta move as a "Ponzi" scheme. I dont agree with this thinking. Georgia has said that the net of tax revenues from NCR will exceed the tax breaks. So the state is providing a huge incentive program and the state of GA is still making money on the deal! Unfortunately the situation in Dayton appears more to resemble a Ponzi scheme. With a major loss of tax base, who will pay the bills in Dayton?

 

I dont think there's any way to put lipstick on this pig. The NCR move is bad for Dayton and Ohio. But we need to move past this as soon as possible. As I mentioned in my first post, Ohio's cities should focus on the fundamentals - dont lose any more HQ, lower business & personal taxes, build on their strengths, and market themselves better. The best way to stop this "poaching" is to lower the tax rates. Lower tax rates in Ohio would reduce the success rate of incentive programs, such as those in Georgia.

 

I'll also add two other thoughts: It seems that Ohio's cities don't act in the best interests of their region. Each level of government and municipality seems to look out for themselves. If the cities acted regionally, and showcased the regions' strengths, I think that would be huge. Second - why doesn't the state provide some type of incentives for the NCR workers to stay in Ohio? Specifically, offer an incentive for former NCR (or any other) workers who start a small business. Keep the talent in the region. We don't need to make it easy for NCR!

 

 

I'm sure all of the GC projects aren't as valuable, but many are more valuable. Long term commitments & retention are what the GC focuses on, and they have done a better job than the other 49 states! On top of those other company job cuts in atlanta, Delta has also shed many jobs. The metro Atlanta area has a higher unemployment rate than Columbus or Cleveland. NCR can make any excuse for moving they want, tax rate, incentives, etc, the bottom line is they have lost market share and need a lower wage region to cushion the blow, and atlanta provides that with a cornucopia of former Southern Bell employees who lost their jobs. Using talent as an excuse in Dayton is laughable! Dayton is home to some of the most intelligent humans to grace this country, attracted to the area by Wright-Patterson, many of these people work on projects classified above what the average american could conceive.

I'd call the Ohio EPA and see if any of their old manufacturing sites might be Superfund worthy.

 

hah..guess what, there old manufacturin site in Dayton (a couple of city blocks worth of empty fields as they tore it all down way back in the 1970s) IS contaminated.  But there was some sort of deal worked out to where they managed to donate or sell it very cheap to University of Dayton, with the understanding that it didnt have to be remediated as the contamination was at some low level so it didn pose a serious health risk.  Or something like that (ColDayMan might have the details).

 

 

GDP would take huge hit losing a f500 company. What about all the spin off companies in the area that supply their parts? Should they jump ship too or raise their prices for shipping everything further away. I wonder how Kroger's feel about this. Surely they are a big customer also.

I'd call the Ohio EPA and see if any of their old manufacturing sites might be Superfund worthy.

 

hah..guess what, there old manufacturin site in Dayton (a couple of city blocks worth of empty fields as they tore it all down way back in the 1970s) IS contaminated. But there was some sort of deal worked out to where they managed to donate or sell it very cheap to University of Dayton, with the understanding that it didnt have to be remediated as the contamination was at some low level so it didn pose a serious health risk. Or something like that (ColDayMan might have the details).

 

 

 

I think they would like to put that behind them as well, as people in other regions aren't aware of their industrial history. It is a real shame when you think about the old NCR and how prosperous they once were.

Honestly, NCR fits more in the western NY state corporate narrative than most of Ohio. Companies like IBM, Kodak, Xerox made western NY wealthy for a 3/4 of a century is slowly/and not so slowly leaving the area a pale shadow of its former self.

^

Thats a real good analogy..the NCR/Xerox/Kodak compariosn.  For IBM,  Tom Watson was a former NCR manager here in Dayton.

 

Also, another Dayton connection: the company that was the ancestor to IBM, the Computing, Tabulating, and Recording comapny, was formed from three companies.  One of these was the Dayton Recording Scale company.  Their old factory still stands in East Dayton.

A good call to action from the host of the Dayton Most Metro blog

 

Are We Ready to Wake Up Yet?

 

As if being listed as a top-ten dying city last year wasn’t enough of a wake-up call, Dayton’s largest and most famous home-grown company NCR has announced its relocation to Atlanta and sent shock waves throughout the region and up to the state capital. While various city, regional and state leaders spent their media time complaining about NCR’s unwillingness to return phone calls or come to the table, they might have inspired more confidence in our community with the following:

 

    “We’d like to thank NCR for the 125 years they’ve been an integral part of the Dayton community. We appreciate the support you’ve shown to our local arts & culture groups and other non-profit organizations over the years, and we will always cherish the rich history that your company has had with Dayton going back to the days of John Patterson. NCR’s departure comes as no surprise to those of us who have been trying to work with the company over the past several months to no avail, and we regret their decision to unceremoniously abandon Dayton. But starting this very minute we will look forward to new opportunities with emerging and growing businesses and remain committed to all of those companies that actually wish to stay and grow in the Dayton Region. We will not dwell on what has been lost, but we will take advantage of this opportunity to make the bold changes necessary that will transform our city and region.”

 

    “Dayton’s past represents the era of a few mega corporations that the community relied on in every facet of life, but Dayton’s future represents a brand new environment created to attract and nurture thousands of small and medium-sized businesses that are able to innovate, grow and retain top talent. This new reality will require a completely new way we operate government at the local, regional and state levels, and we are dedicated to making the hard decisions that will get us to where we need to be.”

 

Those are simply words, and words alone will not push our community forward – bold action is required. It seems as though NCR’s ‘sudden’ departure has struck quite a nerve at the highest levels in state government, and it is time to capitalize on the attention we now have from the state. Here are some things I would focus on if I was leading the charge:

 

Transform Tax Structure

We must completely overhaul our antiquated tax structure that may have made sense decades ago but is now the single largest force against our region’s ability to work together. The current system forces cities to rely on income tax, the counties to rely on sales tax and townships to rely on property tax. Added to a political climate which pits rural and suburban communities against urban cities, it is no wonder our region is so divided. Change must happen at the state level in order to implement a more equitable tax structure that encourages communities to work together rather than compete against one another.

 

Consolidate, Cut, Streamline, Simplify

We must consolidate similar organizations when at all possible, cut every duplicate administrative role possible and streamline our remaining organizations to become as efficient as possible - thereby freeing up more resources that can be invested in our communities and businesses. It is never easy to kill positions, but businesses do it every day in order to survive – we must do it if we are to survive as a region. In addition to cost savings, simplifying our system gives us a better opportunity to speak to businesses with one regional voice – an ability we’ve paid a significant price for lacking all of this time.

 

Change the Culture

We must finally transform ourselves away from a series of individual counties and communities competing with one another and into a single region that values the unique identities of our individual communities but that works closely together to ensure that every investment and development decision is made to maximize the benefit to the entire region. Only when the diversity of choices our region offers both residents and businesses alike is considered an asset rather than an “us vs them” argument will we become a unified region. And only when we become a unified region will we become attractive to outside business and investment. Culture change is not easy, but it can happen with true leadership and an effective message to the community at-large.

 

Strengthen the Core

Our entire region is seeing the effects of having a weak urban core, as we are seeing our largest businesses flee to regions with strong central cities. While others debate whether or not the city’s current leadership has effectively done its job for the city, those we elect in the future must be able to inspire confidence and speak not just for the city but for the entire region – even if they do not have any official regional power outside of the city’s borders. City government must do a much better job at attracting responsible residents and businesses to the core. And at the same time, the region at large must get over its irrational attitudes and biases against the city and understand once and for all that we’re all in this together.

 

Change is never easy, and the type of change that will be necessary to push the Dayton Region forward will be especially difficult. It will require true leaders who are unified with their mission and message to a region that is now extremely divided. Politics must be set aside, and individual egos and personal agendas that conflict with the greater good must be fully exposed and destroyed. The question is – do we have the will to make Dayton emerge a different yet stronger city and region? Or will we simply become paralyzed by the enormous challenges we face as Dayton sinks further into irrelevance and becomes a far-away exurb to Cincinnati? What do you think?

 

 

I sort of like that last sentance, since its already happening for me, personally.  I find myself already paying more attention to Cincinnati things, watching Cincy public TV,  and posting more on the Cincinnati threads at UO.

 

 

Oddly enough of course, Dayton Public TV now owns/runs Cincinnati Public TV. 14/16 are in charge of 48.

Apparently this reporter used to live in Dayton, so an interesting take.  Some things I didnt know about Cleveland....

 

Dayton's Loss a Warning for Cuyahoga County

 

The city of Dayton died Tuesday.

 

It would be foolish for political leaders across Ohio, especially in Greater Cleveland, to ignore that city's demise. We have seldom been more vulnerable.

Some thoughts on NCR here:

 

http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2009/06/mega-regional-reputation-and-other.html

 

Also, I included some OTR pics further down in the post - though I'm guessing you saw them since I took them from here :)

 

Im still trying to figure out how all these people will sale their homes to move to Atlanta. Are they willing to take a 50k+ loss on their homes to move??

A quick scan of this thread says that "some of the 1200 employees in Dayton will be offered jobs".  I would suspect most of them will not need to worry about selling their homes to move to Atlanta.  They will need to sell their homes for other reasons.

my spouse, who worked at ncr right out of hs throughout the 80's, is particularly crushed to hear this terrible news.

 

its a shame that the state is too divided and the state gov seems too out of touch to do anything about this. sometimes these things are strengths of ohio, for example its such a great place to raise a family and there is an amazing amount of diversity, but as far as courting business goes its obviously got some pretty big problems. hopefully this is a wakeup call at the state level. people above mention business taxes and publicity/pr efforts all need major changes. absolutely right on.

 

 

 

The problem with all of these tax incentives is that we have basically instituted a culture of free-riding on the part of corporations. It would be interesting to see what sort of tax rate a state would have to charge to be able to avoid using tax breaks. Essentially, the system punishes companies that stay because the state has to recoup the cost of offering somebody else a free lunch. Having watched this stuff for years, it seems to be rare that a company hasn't already made up its mind before it pulls a stunt like this. The worst are when the loser offers a better deal and still gets turned down.