May 20, 200520 yr Correct me if I am wrong, but....I think the problem with the Hotel on that specific location was some sort of legal issue with Gateway's baseball stadium. I think they gateway feared potential fans would book rooms and watch the games from their rooms and not come to gateway and the “then” developing area. In addition, the hotel tower (30 stories??) would have "free advertising" of its brand since the 43k plus fans at the stadium would constantly see it and any TV broadcast would show it. this is why I think Housing would work on that sight instead.
May 20, 200520 yr Those are added reasons why a 30-story apartment or condo tower would be the "highest and best use" of that site. Imagine that tower picture I posted not as offices or a hotel, but market-rate residential. Turn that thumbs down to thumbs up...we're in agreement here! KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 20, 200520 yr Those are added reasons why a 30-story apartment or condo tower would be the "highest and best use" of that site. Imagine that tower picture I posted not as offices or a hotel, but market-rate residential. Turn that thumbs down to thumbs up...we're in agreement here! KJP You wish has been granted. I wouldn't mind a hotel/market rate residential building. That seems to be very successful in other cities and here in Cleveland we need to think about those types of Mix use developments as Reserve square is the only property in Cleveland I can think of that is "hotel/residential" so does anyone know why this was never built?
May 21, 200520 yr i dont like that niketown proposal AT ALL!! if anyone has ever seen the wall right there its this ugly red/brown, it needs a tower right there. something 15+ OVEr a niketown. why dont they do this?! the mall and everything around there isnt in the highest potential use because no one LIVES there. the convention center aint gonna fix it either. although i think they would have to reroute the roads if they built a tower in that shape, it juts out rather far...
May 21, 200520 yr the mall and everything around there isnt in the highest potential use because no one LIVES there. the convention center aint gonna fix it either. although i think they would have to reroute the roads if they built a tower in that shape, it juts out rather far... Not necessarily. Check out this low-res satellite view of the site from Google.... I believe there is a turning lane from Ontario south to Huron west that shortcuts the hard right turn, but would that be terribly missed? There are so many options with that site, and housing would probably be the best use for it. KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 21, 200520 yr oh wow, yea that does work, i guess i was just thinking of the "hole" as the space for the building. google maps, quite handy... lol
May 21, 200520 yr Now Forest City is trying to play dirty... check out this video. It appears since Forest City was not chosen to build the new county building, they want to pull their convention center proposal also. I guess they were relying on Hagen to get them the proposal, since it is mentioned that they paid him $15,000 in campeign contributions. Ahhh, politics. http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=12839&sid=35220&bw=
May 21, 200520 yr Very interesting. Looks like Forest City is beginning to position itself as public enemy no. 1.
May 21, 200520 yr What a pathetic response by FC. So, you don't get the county proposal and then you act like a cry baby by saying if I can't have that, then you won't get this. Well, if FC really wants to do the convention center, then they will keep their proposal on the table. This really seems childish. We know that FC is a corporation and is only interested in the bottom line. So, I doubt that they would turn down one project because they lost out on another.
May 21, 200520 yr wow a rehabbed AT Tower and a rehabbed convention center that connects to the new lakefront plan? finally forest city does something good lately
May 21, 200520 yr Can you believe the final statement on the webcast that OMLL posted??? The City would consider using eminent domain to take the FC site if they choose it as the preferred site for the Convention Center??? Are you kidding me? That would NEVER happen! And who'd want to deal with that when the other option is seemingly just as good (probably better)??? Anyways, I hope this means that FC will start looking into new options for their site...though it seems more likely that they'll just sit on it, close Tower City and gripe for decades to come...
May 21, 200520 yr ^^Actually, I wish someone in the city had enough guts to stand up to Forest City and use eminent domain to take the Scranton Penninsula away from them. Remember people, Forest City said that they would NOT build housing immediately on the penninsula, claimiing that they would when "market was ready". This was one of the main reasons that their site was chosen as one of the final sites to be considered. I, personally, don't trust their judgement on when the housing market will be ready (though I do have a feeling that this site will be chosen, considering the amount of political clout they have).
May 22, 200520 yr Author ^probably holding on the the property in case there is another gov't building to build...like a juvi court
May 22, 200520 yr as i stated before. Classic case of "lets promises this....just so we can build another substandard project that connects to tower city". In my mind FC sounds like “the boy who cried wolf”. If they had ALREADY started a development on the penisula and on top of the parking garage and help convince Sherwin-Williams to build a first class headquarters on public square so that FC could develop the enter southern portion of the river that TC overlooks I might be interested in their proposal. FC is not playing fair and are only thinking of themselves. As I suggested earlier FC should concentrate on "REdeveloping" the mall without a convention center!! They should & need to be concerned about improving the mall for the citizens of Cleveland not "potential" tourist! If the mall is "fabulous" in the minds of Clevelanders, a place where NE Ohioians regard as "shoppers paradise" those that have previously visited the mall...conventioneers will come to the mall regardless of the location! Redeveloping tower city so that its a foundation for future residential development is important not a convention center. I’m not Ms. Cleo but I can see it now. Picture it….Cleveland…..2016… TC is not living up to expectations even after the ATTACHED convention center is built and operating. FC will play the blame game and say "building a convention center didn't live up to expectations" and they developement of the Scranton Peninsula will never materialize, because the “market rate” housing never developed. What a crock of sh*t! Rebuild the mall so that metro Clevelanders have something to be proud of, brag about and PATRONIZE! I say f*ck those :ass:'s at FC and rebuild the current site, extended it over the rail tracks, upgrade the WFL station and the two hotels! this could be used to develop more restaurants and amenities – FOR CLEVELANDERS - that bridges the WHD and NorthCoast Harbor/Galleria and the new east 12/13 project since people would come outside, eat drink, shop and EXPERIENCE more of downtown Cleveland. Tower City is self-contained. Our current convention center is not an ugly obtrusive building (that you might find in other cities) because it beautifully hidden underground with a grassy mall (that is not being used to its potential) on top. Hey FC - You wanna improve the mall??? Lets start with changing the music and the water show that hasn't changed since the mall opened and stop blowing smoke up our a$$es.
May 22, 200520 yr renovating the current site is such a better usage of urban space. it's the logical choice. face it above ground cc's are fugly, take up blocks, and kill street-life. the only reason the open land around tc area is not more developed is because of the land owners sitting on it out of spite. i hope wolstein pulls off his east bank flats mega-project, then you'll finally see forest city singing a different tune!
May 23, 200520 yr I have dumb question (or idea) about the Convention Center... Why couldn't the $80 million proposed for the construction of a new convention center hotel instead be used to link a rebuilt convention center to Tower City Center with an wide, airy and attractive underground pedestrian walkway beneath Public Square? While I plead ignorance as to what such a walkway would cost to build, if there was any sizable amount of money left over, perhaps it could be used to expand the Renaissance Cleveland Hotel into the corner of Prospect and Superior? Why should we have to build a totally new hotel when vacancies at existing hotels are more than 40 percent? Wouldn't it make more sense to link them and get a catalytic project to make downtown an all-weather destination? This way, it would be possible to provide all-weather pedestrian connections all the way from Gund Arena, Tower City, linking four hotels (Renaissance, Ritz, Marriott at Key, and Sheraton), via a restructured underground parking garage for Key, through the rebuilt Convention Center and north to the attractions at North Coast Harbor. And if folks are worried about losing street-level pedestrian activity....what activity??? Such an all-weather pedestrian linkage might instead create a critical mass of activity downtown, much the way Toronto's PATH walkways have done. And, walkways cannot end up feeling like claustrophobic tunnels, but have shops along them, water fountains, skylights, public art, live musicians, etc etc. Seems to me this would be a way keep Forest City Enterprises happy, should Tower City not be chosen as the site for the Convention Center. And, then push FCE toward building high-rise market-rate housing around Tower City, and turn the Higbee Co. store into a technology school for children. Who knows, with all this, maybe lots more people will want to live downtown, visit downtown and even send their kids to school downtown....even in the middle of a bitter Cleveland winter! KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 23, 200520 yr KJP, Great points. I was wondering why we couldn't expand the Marriot by connecting an expansion through an overstreet walkway.
May 25, 200520 yr sorry - but i have to play devils advocate - I am all against any further building that would keep people of of city streets. In other cities with drastic changes of weather, people walk and deal with the weather. The only place that is different is montreal with the underground malls. I want people outside. if there are store...upon stores...exciting things to see at street level. people will come outside regardless. In Boston, NYC, Toronto & DC (climates like ours) do they complain...No. they deal with it. In Vegas, Miami, NoLa and San Fran. they dont complain about the heat...the deal with. Why should we continue to build underground and pretend the climate doesn't exist? Lets use our varying degrees and multi-seasonal weather as a plus.
May 25, 200520 yr How about having underground walkways without the retail? They could always surface up into Tower City or the Arcade for that. Use the corridors to strengthen what we have instead of forcing it to compete with a parallel system.
May 25, 200520 yr Author For the first month I lived in Houston, I was shocked to see the streets were COMPLETELY devoid of any retail, and just a small handful of restaurants, not a starbucks to be seen. Now add empty, dilapidated 20+ story buildings and you had one creepy downtown. I had heard about the tunnels, and just figured they got you from one building to another. What I did not realize was all of the retail, restaurants, banks, everything you find in a city was put underground, with the security of each building that it emptied out to keeping homeless people, and people 'who had no business being there' away from the bankers and oil men. Anywho, those tunnels destroyed the downtown city of Houston. So, I don't like them for here either. My rant is over
May 25, 200520 yr Umm, Toronto has 16 miles (yes, miles) of underground walkways linking attractions in their downtown core. See http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/path/ -- and boy, that's really killed their street life(!). We Clevelanders like to think we're a tough lot, but how many people do you see wandering downtown's streets in winter? I talk with people from outside Greater Cleveland an awful lot. Some of these folks won't set foot in Cleveland in winter because they have an image, accurate or not, that's it's a windy, frigid wasteland. Speaking of which, do you know why they have handrails along the sidewalk on the East 9th Street side of the Federal Building? You got it -- when the building was built, the handrails were added so pedestrians could hang on to them when walking in the gales that blow in off Lake Erie. I've had to use them, and didn't like it. I don't want walkways to be judged solely on some isolated merit, but in a larger context of striking a compromise between the two convention center proposals. The walkway would link Tower City to the rebuilt convention center, Key Tower/Marriott and to the rest of downtown. And, if Clevelanders don't need walkways, why do so many pedestrians from Tower City use the walkway (even in good weather) to reach Gateway when there's equally direct sidewalks to get them to Gund Arena or Jacobs Field? Imagine if there was a walkway that cut across (and below) Public Square's intersections. It would be a much faster, more direct and safer walk, regardless of weather. Other cities having terrific passageways include Seattle, Atlanta, Cincinnati and Akron. And, while you note that New York City doesn't have a designated underground network of walkways, there are passages between buildings and subway stations that a seasoned New Yorker knows how to use to avoid going outside, to travel a pretty good distance indoors. Ditto with Chicago. I just think it's a worthwhile compromise to link Tower City and more hotels into the convention center without having to build a new hotel or, for that matter, a new convention center! KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 25, 200520 yr To be clear, KJP, I like your idea for the walkways. I just think that we shouldn't put retail space along them. Like I said, have them surface up into existing indoor retail- we have alot of that already in place.
May 25, 200520 yr I was thinking about why some cities having underground walkways also have a vibrant street life, while other cities don't. I think it has to do more with the way the buildings along streets are designed. Cities that have buildings with lots of sidewalk level retail, restaurants and other businesses, or just lots of glass and light, attract pedestrians. Cities that have lots of buildings with blank walls and/or private lobbies, plus parking garages that access buildings without much street access discourage pedestrians. Adding underground walkways don't seem to detract from the former, or compensate for the latter. I do think there's something to be said about designing walkways in the same way the street-levels of buildings are designed. Designing walkways that are barren and have no activity centers along the way create a sense of isolation and make people feel unsafe. Thus, having newstands, splashy water fountains, skylights and a food stand or coffee/bagel/sandwich kiosk along the way is at least as important as having closed-circuit security cameras and emergency phones (which may make pedestrians wonder if there is a safety problem in the walkway). There needs to be multiple entry/exit points along the way, so the walkway doesn't keep people below ground. That was something I noticed about Toronto's PATH, which always has a stairwell, elevator or ramp in sight, no matter where you are on the network. Plus, a walkway shouldn't serve to replace the sidewalks above, but augment them. Walkways should provide pedestrians with something they can get on the sidewalks above, such as a faster route to their destination, or a safer crossing of a busy street. A walkway from Tower City to the Convention Center would provide that by cutting across the street grid, and that portion is probably the most heavily trafficked in the downtown core. KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 25, 200520 yr Umm, Toronto has 16 miles (yes, miles) of underground walkways linking attractions in their downtown core. See http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/path/ -- and boy, that's really killed their street life(!). We Clevelanders like to think we're a tough lot, but how many people do you see wandering downtown's streets in winter? I talk with people from outside Greater Cleveland an awful lot. Some of these folks won't set foot in Cleveland in winter because they have an image, accurate or not, that's it's a windy, frigid wasteland. Speaking of which, do you know why they have handrails along the sidewalk on the East 9th Street side of the Federal Building? You got it -- when the building was built, the handrails were added so pedestrians could hang on to them when walking in the gales that blow in off Lake Erie. I've had to use them, and didn't like it. I don't want walkways to be judged solely on some isolated merit, but in a larger context of striking a compromise between the two convention center proposals. The walkway would link Tower City to the rebuilt convention center, Key Tower/Marriott and to the rest of downtown. And, if Clevelanders don't need walkways, why do so many pedestrians from Tower City use the walkway (even in good weather) to reach Gateway when there's equally direct sidewalks to get them to Gund Arena or Jacobs Field? Imagine if there was a walkway that cut across (and below) Public Square's intersections. It would be a much faster, more direct and safer walk, regardless of weather. Other cities having terrific passageways include Seattle, Atlanta, Cincinnati and Akron. And, while you note that New York City doesn't have a designated underground network of walkways, there are passages between buildings and subway stations that a seasoned New Yorker knows how to use to avoid going outside, to travel a pretty good distance indoors. Ditto with Chicago. I just think it's a worthwhile compromise to link Tower City and more hotels into the convention center without having to build a new hotel or, for that matter, a new convention center! KJP Actually I've never used the Path in Toronto or the "tunnels" in houston. i've been to both cities many many times. Toronto has a nice walking culture but has retail to bring people up to . Houston downtown is just DEAD, anyone who thinks our downtown is "hot and cold" depending on the day. Spend 20 in downtown houston after 5:30! Houston along with most of the south, except NoLa and SouthBeach are driving cultures. KJP the portion of your idea about connecting walkwas is interesting its just that i personally believe we need to build up stores, shops, eateries, galleries, doctors office, and speciality retail to get people on the street before we build. We need to condition them. I think people take the walkway to gatway because they have been "conditioned" to do so. It was a selling point on having people use public transportation when the mall and stadia were constructed. I think the added hotel and the added rooms the marriot at key would be linked if i remember reading correctly. The Crowne plaza would also be linked. Connecting from TC to the project is a stretch. As a New Yorker, I rarely walk underground but most buildings have connected walkways that are attached to the subway via lower concourses and walkways between building are just "open spaces" or plaza. Rockefeller center is the exception. You are right...there are several compromises that can be made to make the convention center at its current location a winner. But without the City/CVB coming up with a PR Strategy and going after non traditional events...nothing will work
May 25, 200520 yr OK, pardon my ignorance here, but what the hell is NoLa? Northern Louisiana? North LA? I'm tryin', I'm just not connecting...New Orleans, Louisana? North Ozark-Ladened Arkansas?
May 26, 200520 yr Here's my thoughts, expressed visually, about linking Tower City to a rebuilt Convention Center beneath Public Square and using the perimeter of Key Tower's underground parking garage. The solid red lines are representative of Cleveland's "Great Indoors" (everything from arcades, to atriums, to overhead enclosed walkways, to underground passageways). The dotted red lines are proposed underground/indoor passageways and walkways. This shows Downtown Cleveland already has a significant "Great Indoors" which, when linked and prominently marked for the public, could be a way to make downtown more habitable in the worst that our bitter, lengthy winters can throw at us. If anyone finds errors in this map, please point them out to me and I'll make adjustments. KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 7, 200520 yr I say good riddance to this very awkward proposal that would have benefitted Forest City much more than the city. FC is acting like a spoiled child. Actually, it's more like the parent took away phone privileges, and the child shouts back, "Oh yeah? Well, I'm not going to watch TV anymore!" Well, fine, little Billy, that's great. You really got us there!
June 7, 200520 yr I would by crying "crybaby" if Forest City was saying that it was abandoning plans for the site altogether. They're clearly not trying to sell it without a certain type of development in place, so they're sharing our vision for the site as an incredible place. Maybe they just came to realize that it was an awkward and inappropriate spot for the Convention Center...which I would agree with...and now they're going to revisit the possibilities. I know we're all tooting the "high end residential" horn and pushing for links to the Scranton Peninsula and a future neighborhood development there, but is anyone else here thinking that they're going to hold onto it a bit longer and see if the casino bill passes? I think I might even support that type of development here! In regard to the future of the Convention Center, I think the right site won out and I hope that the politicians are right when they say that the process should now be accellerated. It still remains to be seen whether or not a new Convention Center is the right investment for our money-starved city and county, but we'll find out a lot sooner this way...and with the best location possible.
June 7, 200520 yr I just glad that situation was not switched around: Forest City owns present site and city owns area next to TC. If we were stuck with the TC site, I would be much much less convinced about the project.
June 7, 200520 yr I think Forest City thought that losing out on two projects in their hometown in short order would harm investor's opinions of their ability to land projects (in whatever manner) and hurt their stock value. It was a face-saving manuever. They didn't really stand a chance, as their convention plan was half-baked and awkward compared to the plans for the current site.
June 8, 200520 yr So, do something IMPRESSIVE!!! Blow our minds with a thoughtful, unique, attention-grabbing development next to your "dying" shopping center! I'm sure an RFP for their site could come up with some really great ideas...and I can't imagine a single one ignoring the glaring development potential of Scranton across the way! I'm thinking of the picture that was posted earlier that featured the boutique hotels along San Antonio's Riverwalk...really address the river...make it beautiful, accessible, and profitable!
June 8, 200520 yr oh boo hoo. so what are they gonna do now? sit on all their empty land and pout? sorry, they already been doin that number for years. howz about this? do the right thing---develop or sell the land already! after all fc did say that the big amenity of that spot is, "an unsurpassed hub of transportation, retail and entertainment" so what's the problem???
June 8, 200520 yr I would think that a casino would be a natural fit at that location. I am sure that they would be interested if that becomes a possibility. But, I am sure that they would take the sure-thing convention center if they could.
June 8, 200520 yr If Forest City wants to boost Tower City with consistent, round-the-clock foot traffic, build some high-rise, market-rate housing for crying out loud! Add CWRU's idea for a private, primary-level tech school to the Higbee building and the nexus for an unmatched, interconnected city-within-a-city emerges! It's time for Tower City to earn a new name for itself by realizing some lofty visions. But does Forest City Enterprises see them? KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 8, 200520 yr NPR had a report that the city was helping to lure a new tenant to the vacant Higbee building. The tenant was described as a company with 600 employees that was considering leaving the area. sketchy info, but.........
June 8, 200520 yr From the 6/8/05 Plain Dealer: 3 focus groups to take new look at Cleveland convention center Wednesday, June 08, 2005 Sarah Hollander Plain Dealer Reporter Triad Research Group, the company that gauged public sentiment on the Cleveland convention center debate in 2000 and 2002, is back with more questions. The Convention Facilities Authority voted Tuesday to pay Triad $18,000 to run three focus groups - one in the city and two in the suburbs. The results will help the authority develop a campaign that resonates with the public, member Danny Williams said. Triad Chief Executive Robert Dykes hopes to schedule the focus groups by the end of the month. ... To reach this Plain Dealer reporter: [email protected], 216-999-4816 http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/111822336848360.xml&coll=2
June 8, 200520 yr Sooner, I would bet it is Officemax that the city is trying to put into Higbees. Would be great, but I won' hold my breath.
June 8, 200520 yr I would doubt that it is DFAS. 1. DFAS has a thousand employees, not six hundred. 2. How in good faith could you argue that the Higbee building is secure? That is an important consideration in this decision.
June 8, 200520 yr DFAS should be built where Steelyard Commons is going. That site would be very secure, as there are few roads leading to it and the valley would even be a good protection from planes! 1,000 good paying jobs beats a Walmart any day. There would even be room to expand. Military industrial complex, here we come.
June 9, 200520 yr how many employees does Office Max have? Their Shaker Heights offices are pretty big! Unless they've thinned out since the merger. regardless, I don't like this idea unless it's a leave Greater Cleveland/Stay in Greater Cleveland question. As much as I like hearing about jobs moving from the suburbs to the center city, that part of Shaker/Warrensville heights could use the office jobs...and it's transit accessible/high density...
June 9, 200520 yr I thought that Officemax had moved most of the operations to Valley View. I don't really know where I heard that, though.
June 14, 200520 yr wimwar, Actually, I've been trying to cut back, you know, what with the rising fuel prices and all. :-)
June 17, 200519 yr some details of the new convention center proposal http://www.cleveland.com/convention/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1119001069194961.xml&coll=2 The map in the PD of the new proposal looks great with the additional of "Mall D." I can't find a picture on the online edition. If they extend over the tracks, what would happen to the county office site? Other questions to ponder: Where would you put a new hotel? In between the new center and East 9th? At the county office location? Seems like a hotel at E. 9th over the tracks would provide great views of the lake and have a certain buzz due to its location next to Rock Hall and CBS. I could see out of towners wanting to stay there just because of the "glamourous" neighbors. However, that would keep foot traffic away from Euclid and the WDH. I mention the CMJ festival because the festival village was poorly attended last weekend. Seems like we need to tweak that part of the festival. Also, being on the other side of the river from the Odeon and the HOB, it loses its connectivity to the other venues. A convention center-North Coast Harbor headquarters would be better linked to the other downtown venues. -An extension over the tracks could also incorporate the WFL directly. That could be a nice selling point to prospective conventions. -Mall D version could be a great link to the waterfront and possible development of North Coast Harbor. If a hotel is placed on 9th along with the lobby facing the museums, an energetic nexus could form. If we begin some of our plans for the waterfront, I could see some nice summertime festivals in the area. CMJ Musicfest could benefit: have one concert at Voinivich (sp?) park, another at the new parking lot at Dock 32, and another bigger name alt-rock band at the Public Auditorium-- and it could all be anchored into the festival's Headquarters at the Rock Hall. You could add some sort of activity in the convention center that would draw greater crowds during the day (workshops, larger exhibits that don't fit in the hall).
June 17, 200519 yr yeah, nowhere in today's article was there any mention of rail transit connections - commuter/amtrak or the waterfront line...strange. And what happens to the recently renovated Mall C in the northward expansion option??? seems like a waste if they have to dig it up in a few years...
June 17, 200519 yr yeah, nowhere in today's article was there any mention of rail transit connections - commuter/amtrak or the waterfront line...strange. And what happens to the recently renovated Mall C in the northward expansion option??? seems like a waste if they have to dig it up in a few years... In past articles it's said the E. 9th station would be "enhanced" to connect with the new convention center.
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