Why am I complaining to all of you?

 

Because this site exists not only for the sharing of news, ideas and debate. It also exists for therapeutic reasons -- to vent frustrations and be reassured that somehow things will be OK.

 

The therapist's sofa is open....

Just got a press release at the office that the county web site has "a visual presentation with detailed information on the proposal to bring a Medical Mart to Cleveland." You can go to the county's home page (www.cuyahogacounty.us) and click on the Medical Mart banner or you may visit the MM page directly at:

 

http://www.merchandisemart.com/clevelandmedicalmart/

 

I wouldn't exactly call it "detailed" but it is interesting.

ripple effect multiplier...who knew?!  the numbers they are throwing around in chapter 4 are interesting to say the least. 

"In New York City we manage 7 West 34th Street, which is the New York Gift Mart, and the"

 

Funny, I interned in that building when it was the world capital of fashion publishing!

I still don't understand why High Point, NC was chosen along with such cities as Toronto, NYC, Chicago and LA.

"High Point is known for its furniture, textiles, and bus manufacturing. It is generally regarded as the "Furniture Capital of the World" and "North Carolina's International City" due to the bi-annual High Point Market that attracts 100,000 exhibitors and buyers from around the world."

^That's still kind of odd. You'd think they'd want to put it in a more populated area.

"High Point is known for its furniture, textiles, and bus manufacturing. It is generally regarded as the "Furniture Capital of the World" and "North Carolina's International City" due to the bi-annual High Point Market that attracts 100,000 exhibitors and buyers from around the world."

 

I was invited by a client to attend an event and those two weeks are insane.  Alot of those companies have HQs elsewhere and showrooms in highpoint.  During the bi annual two event, its amazing to see how the industry pulls together.  Those shows pump lots of money in the economy.

 

I would think that clevelands already a top medical convention draw, annual/bi annual/quarterly events like this along with a 365 day operating show room would be a big boost to the local economy.

It's interesting to hear what everybody has to say about this.  For me, it doesn't make sense to put the convention center behind Tower City.  There's a mention (I think) about how Chicago's mart thrives on the river but their river and ours are completely different.  I'd love to see them renovate the current site...they could make it a pretty cool center.  I watched Mayor Jackson on TV say they'll build it wherever Medical Mart wants it so I guess we'll see. 

It's interesting to hear what everybody has to say about this.  For me, it doesn't make sense to put the convention center behind Tower City.  There's a mention (I think) about how Chicago's mart thrives on the river but their river and ours are completely different.  I'd love to see them renovate the current site...they could make it a pretty cool center.  I watched Mayor Jackson on TV say they'll build it wherever Medical Mart wants it so I guess we'll see.  

 

I think the whole bloody complex should be built where the current center is!

I think the whole bloody complex should be built where the current center is!

 

Christopher Kennedy doesn't want to build there.  The Chicago MMM people don't want to build there.  What's the point?  Try and force them to build on the CC site and they'll walk.  And will we better off w/ our empty Higbee's and undersized, flawed CC?...  Do you think nationally people are clamoring to come to Cleveland so that we can thumb our noses at MMM/Kennedy to the extent we can land somebody/plan of parallel caliber?  If you do, you didn't hear a lot of the knocks this city (unfairly) took during the recent NBA playoffs -- and I'm talking about comments I heard away from newspapers -- media types grateful the series ended on Thurs so they didn't have to 'suffer' a weekend in Cleveland.

 

I know you hate FCE/Miller-Ratner, but what alternative do we have?  Another 'promise' to build hotels on the current CC?  And as for Cleveland's planned and promised development ... remember the promise to build a 60-story Ameritrust tower on Public Square?  even after the site was cleared?... How's that going?  Have you visited the Square in say, oh, the last 18 years?  For the life of me, I don't know why this plan has generated so much anger and negativity here.   I don't want a new tax, but how do you think financing an upgrade of the current CC would be done?  At least there's something tangible and workable with the current plan.  There is a huge Higbee's building sitting, waiting for development.   There's hotel, retail directly at the TC site.  What is there at the current CC?  And please, don't give me this: Tower City is killing street retail... no, WE are killing street retail.  In no city do I know of, but this one, where a mall has allegedly killed street retail... 

 

Let this plan play out; put aside the gripes w/ FCE and let some real business and hotel growth occur downtown.  As the old saying goes: 'A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush.'

 

Dude, let go.

Who is Christopher Kennedy?

Why can't the current convention center be expandeed as per the two current proposals?

 

or is there a clause that the merchandise mart must be attached to a new convention center in tower city?

It sounds to me that Forest City has been working MM people hard.  I can easily see that FCE would tell them the best spot to build since they are one of the premier developers in the nation and this is their home turf.  Since I doubt the Convention Center is going to be built using private money, that shouldn't be an over-riding factor of where the CC goes.  However if MM people are saying they are willing to pay a good chunk of the CC say 50%, then put the thing anywhere they want.  I feel there needs to be more discussions with all the parties involved to come up with a best site not a predetermined best site based on a developers wants unless they are picking up a majority of the costs.

It doesn't sound like the MM people are unamenable to discussion about where to put the Medical MM.  They just want a viable location and a new CC to attach it to.  I don't understand what makes you think that the FCE site is more a "bird in hand" compared to the current CC site.  Remember the "promised" TC Riverview phase or the "promised" Scranton Peninsula?  It's not as if FCE is saying "hey we like the idea of a convention center so much, we'll put up our own money".  We still have to pay for it either way.  We should decide where it goes.

No, but FCE is pushing hard for the Tower City site and they've pretty well got the county commissioners, Mayor Jackson and Joe Cimperman locked up in their campaign treasure chest.

 

And, in case you all haven't noticed, we the people don't run America's elected officials. Corporate America does. Only if there is a coordinated effort will citizens influence the debate. And do we think there will be enough of us who are going to get that excited to form a strong citizens campaign about a site for a convention center?

^and a weather protected connection to the Ritz and Renaissance

Should we rename this thread Cleveland Convention Center/Medical Mart, or is that to premature?

 

*******************************

 

 

 

Cool Community Forum

 

Join your Cool Cleveland colleagues at this free and open Community Forum on July 12, 2007 at the Cleveland Public Library, 325 Superior Avenue N.E. in Downtown Cleveland, in the Louis Stokes Wing Auditorium.

 

While a number of subject matter experts will be invited to invited to be in the audience as resources in the fields of government, economic development and convention centers, this Community Forum is designed to allow the public to ask questions and raise issues about the 1/4% sales tax recently proposed by the Cuyahoga County Commissioners to raise money for a yet-to-be-determined convention center and attached medical mart. There will be no panels, no presentations and no speakers. After a brief outline of the issue, the public will be invited to step up to the microphones and raise questions and issues, which will be transcribed and then posted to CoolCleveland.com, BrewedFreshDaily.com and the Meet.The.Bloggers* network of top regional blog sites.

 

Let your voice be heard To attend, please register by clicking here:

http://www.coolcleveland.com/forums/071407/index.php

 

To post your comment or question in advance, or if you are unable to attend, please click here:

http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2007/07/03/coolclevelandcombfdmtbyoucool-community-forums/

 

A copy of the press release is available for download as a PDF here:

http://www.coolcleveland.com/doc/SalesTaxForumAnnouncement.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

I already commented to Cool Cleveland about not suggesting people take the train/bus to downtown.

Fred the Fixer tapped for Medical Mart

Posted byJoan Mazzolini

July 06, 2007 21:00PM

 

 

Cleveland attorney Fred Nance, known by friends as "Fred the fixer," has been tapped by a business group to broker a deal to bring a Medical Mart downtown.

 

Nance, regional managing partner of Squire Sanders & Dempsey, is credited with bringing the Browns back to town and keeping the Defense Finance and Accounting Service and its 1,100 jobs in Cleveland.

 

His new mission is to bring Chicago-based Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. together with Forest City Enterprises or another developer to build a mart with permanent showrooms for health-care equipment...

 

 

more at:  http://www.cleveland.com

WTF, now they're talking about using the Public Square lot for the CC?  Ugh, that doesn't sound like a good use for that lot!  And did the current site, as recommended by the planning commission, completely drop off the radar of everyone working on this project?

^That has to be a mistake. There's no way to fit a convention center there. They could fit a medical mart there, but not a convention center.

You notice that Don Dimora said "We need someone to marry the Merchandise Mart with Forest City or with another developer..."?

 

When an elected official (who is supposed to be keeping his site options open) says something like that, it means the skids have been greased by FCE. And those skids aim the landing right at Tower City Center.

 

Anyone who still thinks a convention center is going to go at the old site needs to check which way the wind has been blowing for a couple of years now. It's a gale being fanned by FCE. No other force is pushing the old convention center site -- certainly nowhere near as strongly as FCE is pushing Tower City.

^That has to be a mistake. There's no way to fit a convention center there. They could fit a medical mart there, but not a convention center.

 

Maybe a convention center hotel, but even then it's another developer (Jacobs) who owns the Parking Lot On Public Square. FCE would rather see a convention center hotel built off Huron someplace than "give" the hotel to Jacobs.

Unfortunately I agree with you KJP, I'm just kind of pissed about it.  There is a wonderful opportunity to bridge the gap with our lakefront using the convention center, and it is so much better a site for it, too.

I hear you guys liking the current site for conventions, but the TC site just seems to be at the center of it all, especially if these other projects come on line. Conventioneers will walk out of the Terminal Tower and be able to go to the Warehouse district/flats or right to Fourth street and Gateway. Plus the trains and Terminal Tower's status as a landmark, something that can be of good use to people unfamiliar with Cleveland.

 

here is an old article, remember this discussion?

 

 

Wolstein brings debate into the light

 

01/19/03

 

Steven Litt

 

Give Bert Wolstein credit for crashing the party.

 

At the 11th hour in a largely secret debate about where to locate a new convention center in Cleveland, the Moreland Hills developer publicly offered to build one at his expense on a spectacular piece of underused land - the site of a former Norfolk Southern switching yard on the south side of downtown.

 

Wolstein, known mainly as a shopping-center developer, said Tuesday that he wants to build a 500,000-square-foot convention center and lease it back to Cleveland. He would charge $19.5 million a year - potentially less than the city would have to pay to finance a convention center on its own. At the end of a 25-year lease, he said he would consider transferring title to the city.

 

 

more at:  http://www.cleveland.com

 

 

 

About six weeks ago I talked to Robert Brown in planning and he said not many people were visiting the convention site portion of their website; none of this surprises me and I agree completely with KJP. This train has left the station. There is so much more sense in putting it (if it has to be built now) in one of the other recommended locations. No one is listening to us.

Mov2Ohio..."Center of it all?"  I think that the current site-about 5 blocks away-is still at the center of it all.  True, the TT is a landmark but the entire Public Sq./Group Plan is significant too and both proposed sites bleed into each other.  Even if the center moves, I'd hate to see everyone abandon the current establishments 1/4 mile away.  And if we're going to say "center of it all", I'd venture to guess that more people know Cleveland for the Rock Hall than the Terminal Tower.  God, did anyone watch the NBA playoffs/Finals coverage?  I was sick of seeing the Rock Hall!!!  The "live" Cleveland street footage was cool but there's more to this city than the Rock Hall.

 

 

"Center of it all" because its central to the Warehouse district and Gateway and east fourth and the rail line to the airport and The Rock Hall and University Circle and the Flats. The other(current) site has a nice view of the Lake though.

 

 

I am not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but there is a Medical Mart web site with allot of good info and it is up to date with recent developments. Check out the videos from Chris Kennedy and the press releases. Very interesting. If it asks you to register-I just created a bogus name "van smack" and email "[email protected]"

http://www.clevelandmedicalmart.com/home.html

Okay, 'center of it all' or 'close to everything'  my question is, who is or should be the primary benefactors of 'close to everything and center of it all' the residents of Cleveland or conventioneers? I say the residents. Conventioneers will bring money to our economy but residents, commercial and residential, they are the ones that will keep 'the center of it all' vibrant.  Am I wrong?

I am not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but there is a Medical Mart web site with allot of good info and it is up to date with recent developments. Check out the videos from Chris Kennedy and the press releases. Very interesting. If it asks you to register-I just created a bogus name "van smack" and email "[email protected]"

http://www.clevelandmedicalmart.com/home.html

 

Wow, that sure is a long presentation. Some interesting statements made there as well. It makes you wonder where they received their information from.

 

There was a link to Tradeshow Week on the website under "In the News."

 

Can a Med Mart Save Cleveland?

Merchandise Mart, city push proposal for new medical mart, CC

By Rachel Wimberly -- Tradeshow Week, 7/9/2007

 

Cleveland's almost 80-year-old convention center is barely alive, with an annual occupancy rate that hovers between 10 and 15 percent, according to Dennis Roche, president of the Convention & Visitors Bureau of Greater Cleveland.

 

"It's a great, old building, but it's not competitive," Roche said. "It has low ceilings, only three loading docks and too many columns. It's just not adequate."

 

More at tradeshowweek.com

For a city with a bleak economic outlook, the medical mart could be just the medicine it needs.

 

:x

Okay, 'center of it all' or 'close to everything'  my question is, who is or should be the primary benefactors of 'close to everything and center of it all' the residents of Cleveland or conventioneers? I say the residents. Conventioneers will bring money to our economy but residents, commercial and residential, they are the ones that will keep 'the center of it all' vibrant.  Am I wrong?

 

Well of course residents and resident businesses, but whats being planned by residents on the parking lots behind TC? Residents will still have the Warehouse district, Gateway, Public Square and East 4th as well as Tower City and its rail access, but there will also be a new convention center that benefits from proximity to all those things as well.

Okay, I'm stupid. What makes the Forest City site so bad again?

"Center of it all" because its central to the Warehouse district and Gateway and east fourth and the rail line to the airport and The Rock Hall and University Circle and the Flats. The other(current) site has a nice view of the Lake though.

 

 

 

This argument has already been rebutted several times in this thread.  The planning study determined that the current site is actually more central to more things than the TC site.

"Center of it all" because its central to the Warehouse district and Gateway and east fourth and the rail line to the airport and The Rock Hall and University Circle and the Flats. The other(current) site has a nice view of the Lake though.

 

 

 

This argument has already been rebutted several times in this thread.  The planning study determined that the current site is actually more central to more things than the TC site.

 

It was more central to more Hotel rooms, not rail lines, retail and entertainment correct?

No.  This info has already been posted further up thread, but here are a couple quick links:

 

TC site:

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/convention/detail.php?ID=rs

 

Current site (Lakefront extension option):

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/convention/detail.php?ID=ml

 

Note also the functional and safety deficiencies of the Riverview site listed.

Can somebody post the article from Crain's:

"Chicago firm's med mart pitch all in the details"?

Here you go.

 

Chicago firm's med mart pitch all in the details

 

Talks on merchandise mart to include Petro

May 14, 2007 

 

Merchandise Mart Properties Inc.

MMPI president Chris Kennedy's presentation

 

 

 

By JAY MILLER

 

4:30 am, July 9, 2007

 

A video and slide presentation posted on a new web site explains in some detail the concept of a medical merchandise mart and the commitment Merchandise Mart Properties Inc. is prepared to make to Cleveland.

 

On the “Cleveland Medical Mart and Tradeshow Facility” web site, the Chicago company says it wants to manage a new convention center the medical mart would be paired with, and that it’s prepared to spend more than $5 million upfront to make the medical mart and convention center happen.

 

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com

keep the damn cc under the mall where it belongs. the decision had already been made and it was the correct one. enough of this dancing around and reinventing the wheel.

 

the tc site is too awkward anyway and the public square site is an even poorer fit. the mall plan is beautiful and ingenious.

 

get some money and start digging up the mall and lets go. sheesh....sorry for the rant.

I agree with mrnyc.  All I can see is in 30 years, cleveland will be in the same position it is now.  The TC convention center is out dated and small.

 

Expanded the current CC north as the space is already owned by CLEVELAND makes much more sense.

I favor the TC site over the current site (but not by much). I think TC offers a lot more to conventioners than the mall site. Overall, I think its better for business to put it at TC. If we simply build a pretty cc, then we'll end up like Pittsburgh.

^ except it wouldnt be building one, it would be renovating an already ingenious cc the city already owns.

 

and i cant see how itspretty? the mall is pretty sure, but you can't see anything of the cc its buried! -- out of sight/out of mind -- as it should be. could be tied to transit improvements too. and who knows what spin-off? a hotel? new retail/streetlife amenities?

 

re tc:  unlike ps its not awful, but for one thing it's just not wise or even safe to put all the cities eggs in one tower city basket like that. also, imo the rendering info so far seems pretty awkward.

It appears to me that in this debate we have two competing arguments...what makes the most functional sense versus what makes economic sense.  My thoughts...

 

The current CC site clearly makes the most sense functionally.  Expansion to the north, completing the mall and linking DT to the lakefront has been studied to death in this town...but nothing built.  It would be beautiful and complete the mall concept, and offers the chance to create a multi-modal transit hub (RTA, Amtrak, Shoreway).  Why is it we only have pretty pics of this site, and nothing built after years and years? Because presently Cleveland is a mid-level convention town at best.  We could build a 5 million square foot mega palace and we would never compete with Las Vegas, NYC, Orlando,etc. for conventions...just isn't going to happen.  But we can be a first rate, mid level convention and tourism town...but we are sinking fast due to the outdated design of our convention center, a center that while we love the locale, we have not invested in since the 1980's because the demand is not there.

 

With all that said, the TC site, coupled with a MM "promising" 50 trade shows a year now makes the construction of a new CC economically viable.  The catch, unfortunately, is that the powers that be are hell bent on shoe-horning the center behind TC, which will be god-awful given the steep and narrow terrain behind TC.  Both the current CC and TC are in locations with walkable access to shopping, public transit, hotels, and the warehouse district. 

 

The question is...do we want what will be clearly a superior center on the mall that may or may not consistently draw visitors to the city, once the "new-ness" wears off (a la Pittsburgh...i love their beautiful center, but its not doing well at all)?  Or will we put up with a clearly less visually appealing location behind TC on the promise that the MM will bring in a steady stream of conventioners?

 

I've been torn on this debate...but I would hate to see this town end up with a beautiful white elephant.  Call me a gold digger, but I'll take the ugly, rich frog.

What does everyone think about Merchandise Mart people running the CC?  I think it might be more efficient than city hall/county government.  If they do run it, I really hope there is a fair lease and perhaps the county can get its investment back

At first I was totally aginst the FC site, but given the Medical Mart possibly occupying Higbees... a building that hasnt seen much activity downtown... I dont mind it anymore.  I feel like that aspect alone brings the FC site into a tie with the current one...

What does everyone think about Merchandise Mart people running the CC?  I think it might be more efficient than city hall/county government.  If they do run it, I really hope there is a fair lease and perhaps the county can get its investment back

 

Theoretically, I'd love for MM to run the cc. A for-profit enterprise will be motivated to bring in as much business as possible.  Is this done in other cities?

One of my primary inhibitions about abandoning the existing center and an item that was mentioned in the current discussion by the MM folks is re-use of the center on the mall.  I prefer the potential of expansion and renovation of the existing center for a number of reasons, but if the MM will only go in at TC and they can come up with a solid re-use plan for the existing center that would enliven the ho-hum Civic Center district, then I can swing that way.  Not that this is the gold medal answer, but what ever happened to the film studio discussion as a re-use option?

The MM could be accomodated at the current CC location, and probably better than by wedging it into the old Higbee's.  The current county admin block could be demolished, and a new MM could be built on that site, with the CC going over the lake, and the Mall extended over the CC, all the way to the Lakefront, and the convention hotel built over the tracks, fronting onto East 9th..  The real question is if the powers that be will give that option a chance.

^Did you look through the MM presentation. They prefer to use existing building stock for their Marts. There is no building near the current center that is suitable for their purpose... except maybe City Hall. Hmmmm...