I really like the North expansion plan. I do have one question though. How will this "mall D" be built? From the overhead view provided by Paul it looks like mall C ends at the bluff.

I agree...

 

The north expansion looks really good in the rendering.

 

And a glass entrance pyramid larger than the Rock Hall's ---both iconic and complementary.  Not sure where they'd put it though without blocking the view of the lake....

 

 

Mall D could be built in a manner similar to the "Court of the Presidents" for the Great Lakes Exposition of 1936-37. The Court was built across the tracks and some lower-level land where the Shoreway would soon go. Below are a couple of the images of the Court of the Presidents. While the Court was built as an open-air promenade, if you can imagine this open-air deck being about 20 feet or so higher, about 4-6 times as wide, and an enclosed structure of equal width beneath it, that's probably something like what the convention center task force has in mind...maybe?

 

 

 

KJP

Cleveland is a neat city.  I like Lake cities.  When I come, where should I stay?  Wyndham or Ritz?

If you want easy access to the lake, then the Holiday Inn Lakeside is your best bet. The Ritz Carlton and Renaissance Hotel (a Marriott brand) have decent access, since they are upstairs from the Waterfront Line's Tower City station (take the train four stops to the North Coast station). Other hotels within an easy walk of the lakefront are the Sheraton City Center, Hampton Inn or Marriott at Key Tower. Actually, any downtown hotel is within a 20-minute walk of North Coast Harbor.

 

KJP

If you want easy access to the lake, then the Holiday Inn Lakeside is your best bet. The Ritz Carlton and Renaissance Hotel (a Marriott brand) have decent access, since they are upstairs from the Waterfront Line's Tower City station (take the train four stops to the North Coast station). Other hotels within an easy walk of the lakefront are the Sheraton City Center, Hampton Inn or Marriott at Key Tower. Actually, any downtown hotel is within a 20-minute walk of North Coast Harbor.

 

KJP

 

The Sheraton has been rebranded the Crowne Plaza. 

 

This property and the Holiday Inn Lakeside are the the closest hotels to North Coast Harbor.

My2sense,

 

Thanks for catching that.

 

KJP

Hi-  I am new here, but I thought I would add my two cents

 

Seems like their is some bad information on this board.  First off there is a picture showing the Scranton Peninsula that shows some property mismarked as Scaravelli's property.  The property that is marked as belonging to Scaravelli really belongs to W & M Properties which is not Scaravelli, but is conected to the Wolstein family.  Scaravelli's own the property that is the marina at the base of the peninsula under the name of VLAS LLC.  Both of those properties are delinquent in taxes.  If you look at the court records, you will see that there is a note on the VLAS LLC property that went into default for non-payment.  That note was bought up by a company backed by John Ferchill. 

 

It is all public record

 

 

My2sense,

 

Thanks for catching that.

 

KJP

 

 

thats ok.  You post so many great things you entitled to miss one   :wink:

I may not speak for everyone here at UrbanOhio, but I think we're all excited to see what everyone who joins the board has to say and share as it relates to their interests and expertise...

 

That being said, it looks like Icecream's expertise is probably in the technical/legal property realm, so I'd be interested to hear some news or input from him/her that doesn't sound like an accusation...

 

by the way, I believe that earlier post that aimed to display the scaravelli property included a disclaimer and a parenthetical "approximate" that we all heeded pretty sincerely.

i haven't been to this thread in a while, but the columnless convo center looks pretty suite. Does anyone know of a place where that's been done before?

"That being said, it looks like Icecream's expertise is probably in the technical/legal property realm, so I'd be interested to hear some news or input from him/her that doesn't sound like an accusation... by the way, I believe that earlier post that aimed to display the scaravelli property included a disclaimer and a parenthetical "approximate" that we all heeded pretty sincerely."

 

Agreed - welcome to the forum Icecream.  :-)

 

When I created the image with the inaccurately marked Scaravelli property, it was based on what I've read in the local media (which admittedly isn't the best starting place). I try to keep up with the details but I don't always have time to dig through public records - but if you do have that time/expertise, by all means feel free to post that information.

Sorry if it sounded like an attack.  Not intended that way at all.  Tone kind of gets lost when I am writing.  I think this board is fun to read and the great amount of work that people have put into it makes it far better than the news sources I am used to in Cleveland.

 

Once again, sorry if I came across poorly

hey, no sweat!  You just sound like you've got some good stuff to share, so we're trying to get you loosened up!

the convention facilities a??? whatever CFA stands for has a new website

 

http://www.conventioncleveland.com/

authority!

 

they've got surveys on there!  go voice your concerns!

"Pay for linking the center to two nearby hotels. The authority voted not to subsidize construction of a headquarters hotel, although it will try to find space for one in its plans."

 

Yay!

 

KJP

I second that.

 

"Pay for linking the center to two nearby hotels. The authority voted not to subsidize construction of a headquarters hotel, although it will try to find space for one in its plans."

 

Yay!

 

KJP

I'm assuming they're already charging these two linked hotels some sort of fee...I don't understand why the CC would pay for the entireity of it if it will mean significant benefits for these two hotels and not the remainder of Downtown hotels.  Sounds like a pretty interesting thing for them to ask us to pay for!

 

As for the restaurant tax, is there one now or is this completely new?  What are the chances that county residents would approve this?

 

I'm glad they're not talking about building a new hotel right now, or about closing the I-X center, but this is still a very questionable investment for the City/County...

300,000 square feet is very small.

 

The convention center here in Columbus is 1.2 million square feet.

 

Cleveland should aim higher.

Columbus is actually at 1.7 million square feet. Keep in mind, that's not maximum contiguous exhibit floor space (which is substantially smaller). The 300K figure for Cleveland would be the contiguous exhibit floor space for the main area, with ballrooms and meeting rooms supplementing that number.

There is now talk of perhaps of maintaining 2 convention centers:  1 downtown for smaller affairs and keeping the IX center for the larger shows.  The main expo area at the IX center is 800,000 and it has a lot of additional space underneath.  Lots of politics involved between Cleveland trying to use airport expansion to level the IX center and its one suburb that has the IX Center property.  That will be interesting to see if everyone can get along and everyone can stomach a renovated $450mil Convention Center downtown that wouldn't put the other Convention center out of biz.

the IX center issue has nothing to do with city vs. suburb, since the IX center is in Cleveland or using airport expansion as a reason to close the IX center

 

How i digest the situation, it seems we know that what we're proposing downtown isn't large enough for the REALLY big shows. so the management of the IX is now saying they aren't going anywhere.

 

I still believe we should build a center downtown with atleast 700k sq. feet of space.  the meeting rooms will get used. and the new hotels will be much appreciated.

I guess I'm not to current on the situation.  I just did a google search to see when the IX Center was part of BrookPark property.  I found this:

http://www.wcpn.org/spotlight/news/2001/0808brookpark-vote.html

 

I missed or forgot about the land swap 4yrs ago with Cleveland and Brookpark.  I still believe that airport expansion was the main reason they wanted the land.  Whether thats needed or not is another question.   

 

I like the ideas I've seen of renovating the current center and expanding north.  I don't think Cleveland needs to compete with all the other brand new Convention centers around the US in trying to have the biggest emptiest building in a downtown location.  I like the 2 convention center idea. 

Actually, the city of Cleveland did want the IX Center land for airport expansion. Hopkins' long-range plan is to relocate all the terminals into one giant terminal, placed approximately where the IX Center sets. Where the old terminals stand, a third runway would be built, roughly parallel to SR237. The proposed layout is what most mid- to large-sized airports are seeking these days -- a mid-field terminal. Cities in the region which already have this airport layout are Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and now Detroit. Cleveland wants one, too.

 

I have a diagram of the basic proposal, which I modified to include a high-speed rail line (what a shock!). But Hopkins' planners acknowledge the new terminal won't be built for 10-20 years. And, it will probably cost a billion dollars or more to build it.

 

KJP

Could you post your diagram?

Yes. I posted it in the transportation section, at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4426.msg43163#msg43163

 

KJP

Pittsburgh, PA:

 

http://www.gbapgh.org/casestudies_ConventionCenter.asp

 

Completed in 2003

 

Total Building Square Footage: 1.5 Million square feet

• 313¸400 sq.ft. of Exhibit Space (236¸900 sq/ft is column free)

• 76¸500 sq.ft. of Secondary Exhibit Space

• 31¸610 sq.ft. Spirit of Pittsburgh Ballroom and Regional Showcase

 

Cost: $385 million dollars

 

LEED GOLD CERTIFIED!!!

 

and just 2.5 hours from Cleveland in a car...

Actually, the city of Cleveland did want the IX Center land for airport expansion. Hopkins' long-range plan is to relocate all the terminals into one giant terminal, placed approximately where the IX Center sets. Where the old terminals stand, a third runway would be built, roughly parallel to SR237. The proposed layout is what most mid- to large-sized airports are seeking these days -- a mid-field terminal. Cities in the region which already have this airport layout are Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and now Detroit. Cleveland wants one, too.

 

I have a diagram of the basic proposal, which I modified to include a high-speed rail line (what a shock!). But Hopkins' planners acknowledge the new terminal won't be built for 10-20 years. And, it will probably cost a billion dollars or more to build it.

 

KJP

 

I wouldn't call cinci a "mid feild terminal" they have various terminals.  Pitts, detroit and atlanta are good examples.

Columbus has quite an interesting-looking convention center.  I like it.  I spent the last three days there in a hotel right across the street.  Short North is a nice looking district.  Seems quite new. I am curious as what it used to look like.

Although Pittsburgh's new convention center is a wonderful piece of architecture, it is a good example of how new facilities are money-losing propositions from the day they open.

Nobody's rushing into anything and that's a good thing, but what's it going to take to make them drop the whole thing???  This has been going on for about a decade and there's clearly no easy answer...not to mention no proof that this is something we actually NEED.

I think the idea of a rebuilt convention center might work -IF- it's done in conjunction with providing other things to make it more useful for Cuyahoga County residents and the region's economy, namely....

 

> Creating a climate-protected pedestrian link between downtown and the lakefront;

> Incorporating a regional multi-modal transportation center;

> Offering facilities for a point of collaboration, idea-incubation and career-building between all Northeast Ohio institutions of higher learning and employers;

> Creating more year-round links between downtown buildings;

> Providing community festivals (below ground in winter, on the mall in summer);

> And, yes, providing a location for conventions, trade shows and large meetings.

 

The great thing about all these activities is there are local, state and federal funding programs in place TODAY for each and every one of them. If we incorporated multiple uses into this facility, Cuyahoga County voters wouldn't have to vote on whether to increase local taxes for rebuilding the facility. But it would require our state and federal legislative delegations to work hard for the funding for this.

 

KJP

agreed...all good points KJP.  It's not that I wouldn't want to see one built...I'm just having a hard time justifying the cost for a center that most of us won't ever set foot in.  Your comments take into account this factor.

Anyone else go to the public meeting today?  I did!  I love being back in town and getting to sit in on these totally accessible meetings for such huge projects...

 

There was nothing colorful or even visual at all to share from this meeting, but the overall feel was that bringing the cost of construction within range without losing the most critical features will not be a problem.  Representatives from the CFA, engineers, City Planning, and Convention Bureau, as well as preservationists, event planners, builders, etc. all weighed in.  The meeting was structured well and all in attendance were allowed time to comment and question issues that were brought up.

 

This is by no means an official transcript, but the main topics of discussion revolved around the following issues that will help reduce the cost of construction:

 

1) Replacing "clear span" exhibition hall with a hall that will have columns at 90' intervals.  The "columnless" feature is regarded as one of the main competitive selling points of the new center and there was much opposition to this.

 

2) Reducing the recommended square footage of the main exhibition hall from 300,000 square feet to 275,000 or less.  Much like the previous recommendation, this was opposed, but will be considered.

 

3) Considering the options and cost factors of building above or below ground.  There were arguments that supported each and the result is that both will be considered.

 

4) Further evaluation of tax credit options for restoration of historic structures.  This applies primarily to the existing structure, which may or may not be renovated as a part of this project.

 

5) Pursuing federal and other outside public funding for the inclusion of multimodal transit facilities on a northward expansion option.  This was one of the main features of the proposals of the late 90s.

 

6) Consideration of options to build either westward, on the opposite side of Mall B, or northward.  The northward expansion seems preferred at present because land acquisition costs are not an issue, whereas land on the west side of Mall B is currently not secured.

 

7) Exploration of revenue producing components of the plan that could pay for themselves.  This consisted, primarily, of discussion of a large parking garage that could be built over the train tracks in a northern expansion.

 

Other issues, such as closing the existing center for a period in order to speed up construction, were nixed.  There was also discussion of probable scenarios that would arise involving the I-X Center.  These would likely not occur before 2008-2009 and as late as 2013.

MGD,

 

Great post. Very informative. 

you know i live for this stuff!

I don’t think the city of Cleveland is thinking logically about the whole situation with the Convention Center. Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars if you can't even get what you planed for. All this talk about adding support columns; making the exhibit space smaller; taking away parking facilities and much more... goes against the very concept of building a new center in the first place. ITS LIKE TRYING TO PUSH A SQUARE BLOCK THROUGH A ROUND HOLE. Its just not meant to be, especially when there are other options.

 

The city already controls the International Exposition Center a facility that is four times the size of the proposed Convention Center 800,000 sq feet. The city feels that it is more important to expand Cleveland Hopkins International Airport then keep the IX center in its present location. I do agree that Cleveland needs a much larger Airport, but tearing down the IX center to build a new runway and airport terminal will not solve any problems. There is no sense in renovating and expanding an 80-year-old airport that is completely boxed in from surrounding businesses, and homes.

 

My suggestion is to forget about spending all this money on building a new Convention Center downtown... at least for now. Its time to look at relocating the airport in an area where there are large open plains for plenty of room for future expansion projects. The farm lands outside Lorain are an ideal location. The area is properly situated between Cleveland, Toledo, Sandusky, and the Future Cleveland Quarries Community. I know the city wants the airport to remain in Cuyahoga County, but the fact of the matter is that there is no more room left to build. Airports need room to grow just as cities do.... THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX

 

Basically what im trying to say is that I feel an up to date airport in an Ideal location is much more valuable to the City then a remodeled Convention Center, especially when the city already has the IX center which attracts over 2 million visitors yearly... BUSINESSES LOOKING TO STAY AND RELOCATE IN THE CITY OF CLEVELAND DONT WANT A CONVENTION CENTER, THEY WANT A GATEWAY TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

 

I don’t think the city of Cleveland is thinking logically about the whole situation with the Convention Center. Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars if you can't even get what you planed for. All this talk about adding support columns; making the exhibit space smaller; taking away parking facilities and much more... goes against the very concept of building a new center in the first place. ITS LIKE TRYING TO PUSH A SQUARE BLOCK THROUGH A ROUND HOLE. Its just not meant to be, especially when there are other options.

 

The city already controls the International Exposition Center a facility that is four times the size of the proposed Convention Center 800,000 sq feet. The city feels that it is more important to expand Cleveland Hopkins International Airport then keep the IX center in its present location. I do agree that Cleveland needs a much larger Airport, but tearing down the IX center to build a new runway and airport terminal will not solve any problems. There is no sense in renovating and expanding an 80-year-old airport that is completely boxed in from surrounding businesses, and homes.

 

My suggestion is to forget about spending all this money on building a new Convention Center downtown... at least for now. Its time to look at relocating the airport in an area where there are large open plains for plenty of room for future expansion projects. The farm lands outside Lorain are an ideal location. The area is properly situated between Cleveland, Toledo, Sandusky, and the Future Cleveland Quarries Community. I know the city wants the airport to remain in Cuyahoga County, but the fact of the matter is that there is no more room left to build. Airports need room to grow just as cities do.... THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX

 

Basically what im trying to say is that I feel an up to date airport in an Ideal location is much more valuable to the City then a remodeled Convention Center, especially when the city already has the IX center which attracts over 2 million visitors yearly... BUSINESSES LOOKING TO STAY AND RELOCATE IN THE CITY OF CLEVELAND DONT WANT A CONVENTION CENTER, THEY WANT A GATEWAY TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

 

 

The biggest asset of the “chia pet” is its close proximity to the city. 

 

There is nowhere in Cuyahoga county to build an airport and the city will not pay to buy the land then build and maintain an airport in an adjacent county,  Since many of those counties are sprawling.  In addition with the financial status of airlines, they cannot contribute to helping build. O’hare can’t expand because American and United are not able to help.  Atlanta can because Delta is near bankruptcy. 

 

As a person who is in the airport quite a bit (up to 80 departures a year), I wouldn't want a long commute; Hopkins will then have the hellish commutes similar to those using O’Hare, JFK, Dallas Ft. Worth and only aggravating flyers.

 

YEs we want better air service, but lets face it...there is not hometown airline.  We're a hub for an airlines that has it two main hubs elsewhere and limited planes so we get the "short" end of the stick.  How we can help is getting behind our main airline and putting your butss in seats.

 

I want the city to grow and for our leaders to think outside the box as well, which is why expandin the current center over the tracks to NCH and West to ontario could appease all.  The smaller use rooms could be above ground and used as the base to the two "proposed" hotels attached and also linked to browns stadium which has conference facilities.

It just does not make sense to me. Cleveland is a city that is loosing Business to other more prosperous cities and spending money to build a new convention center does not seem to solve this problem. Yet, having a proper international airport would make the city more attractive to companies that do business around the world. It would also allow convient access to international tourist who wish to visit the city... THE FIRST THING YOU SEE WHEN YOU FLY INTO A CITY IS THE AIRPORT... THE LAST THING YOU SEE WHEN YOU FLY OUT OF A CITY IS THE AIRPORT.

 

All of the prospering big cities in the nation have already realized that, why hasen't Cleveland?

If this city wants to get a jump on others in a 21st century economy that looks to be fraught with resource limits, then...

 

> forget the airport for travel to cities within 500 miles of Cleveland;

> build high-speed rail linking big-city downtowns, moderate-sized cities, and airports;

> more aggressively pursue nonconventional energy research, and attract employers willing to innovate in this endeavor;

> become a distribution center (rail and water) for clean-coal liquefaction products;

> use the downtown convention center for the purposes I suggested a few messages earlier in this string.

 

I had to pose the last to bring this thread back to its original purpose!

 

KJP

 

I agree that there are major compromise issues that have made the "selling" of an expanded convention center even more difficult.  And I do see that there are connections between airport expansion and convention center expansion.  However, these deal pretty much exclusively with the I-X Center and the contract that the current operators have with it and how an expanded CC Downtown will affect their contract and their desire to stay operational.  If they shut down, the airport can expand.  If not, it'll be a bit longer before the City can entertain that option.  As far as building a new airport somewhere else...that's not even on the table.

 

A couple other issues of note:  the current CC conversation involves talk of adding significantly INCREASED parking facilities, not decreased as someone suggested earlier.  I heard no mention of hotels during the last meeting.  I don't think they're on the table at present.  I think the opposition from existing hotels pretty much nixed that one for now.  Though, I'm sure they'd consider accomodating one in the future.

Forest City resubmits convention ctr. plan

The real estate developer has sent a letter to Convention Facilities Authority asking that the company’s proposal for a convention center south of Tower City Center be considered

 

By JAY MILLER

 

3:50 pm, September 1, 2005

 

 

 

 

 

and the saga continues...

So, my theory.  Mayor Jane (probably with Chris Roynanne whispering in her ear) puts Ratner in charge of the school super search.  They get chummy, mends fences and he re-subs the convention plan.

 

Sam Miller objects, and is over ruled. 

 

If this is true, its another good day for Cleveland. 

 

 

Ratners are playing the same game that Goldman played with LM...they still wanted it they just wanted to scare people.

Oh, politics.

If Mayor Jane wants to get re-elected, I think she needs to do whatever Forest City wants.  If the Convention Center is put behind the mall, we have Jane for four more years.

wha? They randomly put Tower City back into the mix... oook.  Forest City is about the hardest company to figure out I've ever seen.  Maybe them getting the Case West Quad project hightened their interest in their home city again.  Will be interesting to hear what caused the change.

A riverfront convention center is back in the running.

 

Baaaaaaaaaaaaad idea. I was so miffed when I saw this.

 

1) The current convention center is beautiful, historic and right in the middle of downtown. Use it.

 

2) The riverfront site has no immediate connection to the rest of downtown. People would have to go up through Tower City just to get to Public Square. It also offers no chance to connect downtown to the lakefront, as the renovation plan does.