A new Cleveland convention center must be built downtown

 

Friday, November 02, 2007

 

Posted by the editors at blog.cleveland. com/ post_riposte/ on 10/30/07 at 8:53 a.m.

 

Cleveland's new convention center, which will be anchored by a Medical Mart, can go only one place: downtown.

 

Executives at Merchandise Mart Properties Inc., which is building the Medical Mart, and some others reportedly want the convention center to go near the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/editorials/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/119399238596190.xml&coll=2

Again, beating around a bush to the point where we'll scare them away just so everyone can add their $.02.  Oh hell, I'll jump in too :wink:

 

We don't have the luxury AND/OR necessity to build something of this scale away from the city center (ie McCormick Place), especially Midtown/Clinic nonetheless. And if it goes downtown, they better not build skywalks stretching above Euclid so the doctors stay protected!  :lol: 

As long as the surface lots are chipping in, I say it's negative attitudes like that one that are the biggest obstacle. This is one of the most promising projects in Cleveland, with some major players behind it. So as for me, I'm quite positive about it.

From WKYC.

 

CLEVELAND -- Cuyahoga County taxpayers have been paying more sales tax for seven weeks for a hoped-for convention center that would be teamed with a Medical Mart.

That's about $3.6 million dollars a month that's going into a special "untouchable" fund. Commissioners passed the tax without a people's vote.

 

Many people ask what's happening to their money.

 

The idea is to build a showcase for medical products that will attract trade shows, visitors and companies that make products and do research.

 

More at wkyc.com

And the point of that article was what?

Yeah, I don't feel like I can formulate an educated opinion on this topic anymore. All I want is for them to do what is best for the city. Hopefully Fred Nance will be able to figure it all out because I don't trust our dopey commissioners anymore.

 

Those first couple paragraphs were really written to make it sound like some sort of scandal, and were unnecessary, but I found this encouraging:

 

"The commissioners' current preferred site is on the current Convention Center site and adjoining property. Public land would be cheaper and easier to get.

 

"It's in the middle of other downtown assets and would help give the city a path to the lakefront,"

according to Nance.

 

Other downtown locations including the Higbee Building conversion and Forest City convention center site and port parking lots by Browns Stadium are still in the running too."

 

And this is news:

 

"The Medical Mart team also wants to consider building the facility inside the convention center.

 

Nance claims they have not committed to putting up a specific investment to pay for the Medical Mart building itself and suggested an inside the Convention Center facility might be built with public money."

 

 

 

Anywho... I agree with you X, the article does start off insinuating like there is some sinister plot by the county.  I just hope the folks at Merchandise Marts and the county can come to an agreement soon regarding a location; the longer it takes the more anxious and nervous I get.

I just hope the folks at Merchandise Marts and the county can come to an agreement soon regarding a location; the longer it takes the more anxious and nervous I get.

 

I've said before, I prefer Tower City, but if its the CC, so be it.  Just so long as MM is downtown, period -- and I'm glad to see the biz & public officials united on this.  Nance and the County officials absolutely have to draw a line in the sand on this one.  A non-downtow, notably Clinic/UC/Midtown location is not negotiable, and if the MM people insisted on a Clinic location, I'd have one message for them: NO DEAL.

 

^^ Just to play devil's advocate: What if putting the med mart/convention center over near University Circle would be better?

It might be better for medical/health conventions, but there are few hotel rooms in the University Circle area, fewer restaurants, and no nightlife or shopping to speak of (except that lovely Aldi and future CVS/Rite Aids).  What about all the other potential non-medical conventions and events?  Does the Vacuum Dealer's Trade Association or the American Solar Energy Society (*real conventions from this past July) want to meet near the Clinic and UH or near a vibrant downtown with restaurants, nightlife, and sports venues?

how about they build the medical mart in university circle then that will spur more building of hotels, restaruants, etc. then the people can take a bus on euclid avenue to downtown? lol

Guys, there is absolutely no way the Medical Mart (if we even get one, which I doubt) is going to be in University Circle.  End of story.

Those first couple paragraphs were really written to make it sound like some sort of scandal, and were unnecessary, but I found this encouraging:

 

"The commissioners' current preferred site is on the current Convention Center site and adjoining property. Public land would be cheaper and easier to get.

 

"It's in the middle of other downtown assets and would help give the city a path to the lakefront,"

according to Nance.

 

 

 

 

* rubs eyes, reads that again *

 

wow, at least the best choice is still being mentioned.

 

 

^^ Just to play devil's advocate: What if putting the med mart/convention center over near University Circle would be better?

 

Better for whom?  There are a ton of R & D facilities in and around CC in addition to, of course, the hospital and, yet, how impactive is it to the fabric of the town (and I don't mean the obvious prestige and economy)...

 

Putting MM at the Clinic (and let's not call the Clinic University Circle because, really, it's not, it'd be more Midtown/Fairfax) would hurt downtown.  All those potential jobs, hotel and infrastructure would have to be rebuilt in Midtown or, more than likely, not at all -- we'd probably have to build more big, cold parking structures for visitors on there in the middle of no-man's land.  Just what we need: another big island of activity built away from our main existing activity node so as to stretch/sprawl activity/people away in thier own private autos, right? ... Such a convention center belongs downtown.  Our downtown has made great strides and is getting better, esp. in terms of residents.  But let's be honest, it's not 'there' yet.  It's not a Boston, Philly, SF, DC, Chicago, etc, etc... in terms of vitality, retail entertainment, etc.  Concentrating such a large enterprise as MM downtown would generate lots of spin-off $$ and growth for downtown.

 

Just because we're Cleveland, why must we constantly adopt a 'beggars can't be choosy' mentality?  Because we're Cleveland, out-of-town enterprises like the MM folks seemingly want to (I won't say for certain, b/c none of us knows for sure) build such projects for their own convenience and to hell with what's best for our region.   I say: to hell with them, if they don't want to play ball. 

 

Hell, jamiec, if they said: 'hey, let's build MM at the airport for the convenience of our clients', would you be for that too?  I'd love, obviously, the vast benefits of an MM for our area, but as I've said, above, this should be a win-win proposition, for MM and for Cleveland, and locating this vast project in the middle of the no-man's land of the east side, away from our existing CBD hotel/retail/restaurant/transit/convention infrastructure is clearly NOT in Cleveland's best interests.  Jamiec, we’re not so desperate we must dance to every out/town biz venture's tune because they wave big bucks and prestige as enticements under our noses when our needs are not only not met but undoubtedly damaged in both the short and long run.

 

^I think I prefer Downtown, but I think this is overstating the case a bit.  Building a Med Mart/Convention Center between 55th and University Circle could still draw on the existing transit and hotel infrastructure just fine.  There really isn't much retail infrastructure downtown to draw (just Tower City) anyhow, which leaves us with restaurant/entertainment choices.  Can't say I've ever been to one of these big conventions- is it really such a big f'ing deal to take a bus (give free bus tix to conventioneers) downtown for dinner or to a ballgame?  How do conventioneers in Chicago and NYC do it?

Hell, jamiec, if they said: 'hey, let's build MM at the airport for the convenience of our clients', would you be for that too?  I'd love, obviously, the vast benefits of an MM for our area, but as I've said, above, this should be a win-win proposition, for MM and for Cleveland, and locating this vast project in the middle of the no-man's land of the east side, away from our existing CBD hotel/retail/restaurant/transit/convention infrastructure is clearly NOT in Cleveland's best interests.  Jamiec, we’re not so desperate we must dance to every out/town biz venture's tune because they wave big bucks and prestige as enticements under our noses when our needs are not only not met but undoubtedly damaged in both the short and long run.

I don't think JamieC was necessarily advocating the Clinic / UC location, but just opening it up for debate, as in, (in my best Linda Richman / Coffee Talk accent) "If the Medical Mart ended up being built near the Clinic, are there any potential upsides to that decision?  Discuss."

:weird:

^Boy, I don't even know where to begin with all that. 

The current site is ideal, and the med mart is an experiment an unproven business model.

 

I guess all those decades of success and experience with the merchandise mart in Chicago are all fictitious?

There won't be casinos in Ohio anytime soon.  It is one thing the left and the right in this state agree on.

I'm sure I'll be accused of having a "can't do" attitude but sorry - if Cleveland were to build the "largest" convention center, it would be the biggest white elephant in the city history.

 

It's foolish to think that Cleveland could and/or should compete with the likes of McCormick in Chicago, or the center in Vegas, etc. - and building a comparable facility on the site of the current center? Let's say you want something comparable to the Las Vegas Convention Center - where would you put FIFTY loading docks? Where would you place the marshalling yard for the dozens of trucks using those docks? Don't get me wrong - I absolutely support an expanded and improved convention facility, but rather than try to keep up the Joneses, I'd rather see Cleveland have a sensibly-expanded and fully-modernized facility that gets used for smaller shows year-round than some albatross plunked down in the middle of the CBD.

 

And as far as a casino - are we forgetting the voting patterns of the State?

There won't be casinos in Ohio anytime soon.  It is one thing the left and the right in this state agree on.

 

Sadly it is.. which is too bad.  We're giving away money.  The whole idea of "helping prevent gambling addiction" is the biggest load of BS.  The state has no problem allowing a state lottery.  And if someone wants to gamble from any point in this state they simply have to drive a couple hours.  Cleveland can go to Erie, Toledo to Detroit, etc etc.

I'm sure I'll be accused of having a "can't do" attitude but sorry - if Cleveland were to build the "largest" convention center, it would be the biggest white elephant in the city history.

 

It's foolish to think that Cleveland could and/or should compete with the likes of McCormick in Chicago, or the center in Vegas, etc. - and building a comparable facility on the site of the current center? Let's say you want something comparable to the Las Vegas Convention Center - where would you put FIFTY loading docks? Where would you place the marshalling yard for the dozens of trucks using those docks? Don't get me wrong - I absolutely support an expanded and improved convention facility, but rather than try to keep up the Joneses, I'd rather see Cleveland have a sensibly-expanded and fully-modernized facility that gets used for smaller shows year-round than some albatross plunked down in the middle of the CBD.

 

And as far as a casino - are we forgetting the voting patterns of the State?

 

nah, you are hardly cant do -- for sure not on this. this is exactly my stance on the cc. cleveland desperately needs a modernized cc. somewhat expanded, but definately modernized.

 

the ix is going away someday for airport expansion so that does need some consideration.

 

its true the cleve may have to say goodbye to the few huge conventions the ix holds per year. those dont do downtown merchants much good anyway. that is unless other arrangements can be made for those biggies, such as using arenas (i dk if that is even feasible at all) or splitting them up or something.

 

so definately the thing to do is renovate the old cc as big as makes sense. forget vegas, etc. -- cleve is competing against itself with this (the groovy little old cc vs the huge azz ix center), so regardless best that can happen given a downtown setting is to sort of split the size difference.

 

ahhhh what am i saying? we've yakked this to death! geez they already have a fantastic design -- now i wish they would stop the political dithering with the tc site and get those shovels to digging up the mall already, its long overdue.

 

The sooner Cleveland's savior can get them to agree on where to build(re-build) the convention center the sooner we can push Nance to the next major project that needs his attention--- realigning the innerbelt bridges south.

its true the cleve may have to say goodbye to the few huge conventions the ix holds per year. those dont do downtown merchants much good anyway. that is unless other arrangements can be made for those biggies, such as using arenas (i dk if that is even feasible at all) or splitting them up or something.

 

If there's one thing that truly matters to conventions its contiguous usable space, basketball court>IX Center? I don't think so.

:weird:

Bread and butter..  I wonder if thats what the Columbus Convention center feels about all the cheerleading conventions they have there.  I bet thats helping to pay the bills of their 1.6 million sq ft facility.  Thats a whole lot of frisky cheerleaders if it is.  Check their events schedule and you'll see some kind of cheerleading event happens there once a month.  They also have other dancing things going on and a whole variety of religious focused events.

  Not to diss your idea of thinking big, but there really is an issue of convention center-itis.  Most of the new convention centers that have been built are losing money because there are so many possibilities.  There are plenty of gigantic convention centers.  Say we have created another IX center in downtown Cleveland, thats not bringing in a whole lot more conventions.  Thats mainly bringing in what the IX center previously had.  There has to be a real reason besides a nice big space for conventions to want to come to Cleveland.  One of those reasons should be affordability.  By creating the most massive of spaces, how is that going to be affordable to smaller conventions?  Thats why most people on here would be content with anything around a million to 1.5million sq ft.  Cleveland isn't competing with Chicago for conventions.  Cleveland is competing with Pittsburgh, Columbus, Detroit, Cincy, Buffalo, and perhaps Akron.  It should be able to compete quite well with all of those cities.

:weird:

^You really have to get over the casino thing.  It just ain't gonna happen. 

I was just going to say: stop with the casino. When you get past the flashy lights, the green felt, noise of the machines, and the music -- what do they contribute to the quality of life in a community? I'd rather us try to figure how to design, engineer, manufacture and re-innovate stuff again. It's how to create wealth, increase the demand for knowledge, and satisfy aspirations to create new and better things. A casino? Sorry, it doesn't do it for me.

I am so against the idea of a casino, it's not even funny. Man, what a horrible idea. I don't understand why so many of the higher-ups are pushing this thing. I don't care if other places have them; a casino is definitely not the answer to help Cleveland's economy. Especially with all the poverty issues going on right now.

You keep rambling on and on about how we need this big convention center because the medical mart is going to fall apart and won't happen.. well if it does, then we won't build a convention center!!  The whole push for a new convention center is due to the medical mart.

:weird:

Well, I really hope a casino doesn't come in. I think it would be a huge mistake. All Cleveland needs is a casino taking advantage of people's hard-earned money. It's the last thing Cleveland needs.

:weird:

Ohio is not any more averse to gamming than all the surrounding states

I believe the way Detroit is doing it is best. My perceptions are changing….I may be in the wrong state?   

 

    Let the other cities and states do what they want with gambling. Comparing the potential of gaming to the potential of the medical industry would be like looking at the difference between ground chuck and fillet mignon.

    There's no way we should be thinking about gambling when the idea of being the medical capital of the country is in our sights. The existing hospitals and technology here, added with the vision of medical conventions and health-care companies coming to town makes any casino a waste of time.

    So let's not worry about trying to emulate cities like Detroit, Pittsburgh or any of our surrounding states. What the project's leaders want to do could be far beyond any of them. Perception IS everything, so I'd rather be a medical leader than some Windsor rip-off.

:weird:

^uh...no convention center directly has positive cash flow

its true the cleve may have to say goodbye to the few huge conventions the ix holds per year. those dont do downtown merchants much good anyway. that is unless other arrangements can be made for those biggies, such as using arenas (i dk if that is even feasible at all) or splitting them up or something.

 

If there's one thing that truly matters to conventions its contiguous usable space, basketball court>IX Center? I don't think so.

 

i think that issue is over-rated and not carved in stone. sometimes contiguous space is important, but not always. for example, the fashion week shows in ny have a main event site (bryant park tents), but also have many events in other large spaces around town as well.

 

ideally breaking events up is better for the city as long as people can easily get around to the off-sites, they are close by and there is stuff to do.

 

if no, as i say cleve may have to give up a few ix-only biggies at some point in the far flung future when the ix is torn down.

 

if there's one type of show that Cleveland isn't trying to land, its clearly fashion shows.

 

I'm taking about the big ticket conventions (auto, home&garden, NAACP, etc.) Do you think putting a model home in the Q and then a hot tub display in the old Convention center will work? No, the vendors needs one giant space to take advantage of having the consumer all in one area.

err, i'm not talking about fashion shows, that was clearly labled as an example of a multi-site type of convention. conventions dont always need to be held all in one place.

 

certainly you don't think outboard motor fishing types mix much with the cigarette speed boat crowd?

 

or that there will any problem with going from the cc to the med mart, which is an off-site?

 

whatev, it's not even an issue until the ix comes down, and that wont be for a long time. some of those shows might be lost after that, but not all of them.

 

The City wants to sell the IX Center back to the owner. They obviously don't think that they will be needing it in the next few decades.

err, i'm not talking about fashion shows, that was clearly labled as an example of a multi-site type of convention. conventions dont always need to be held all in one place.

 

certainly you don't think outboard motor fishing types mix much with the cigarette speed boat crowd?

 

or that there will any problem with going from the cc to the med mart, which is an off-site?

 

whatev, it's not even an issue until the ix comes down, and that wont be for a long time. some of those shows might be lost after that, but not all of them.

 

 

point is that Cleveland clearly goes after the big "one-shot" conventions. This isn't a market (nor is any of the midwest) that can afford to splice up conventions.

The City wants to sell the IX Center back to the owner. They obviously don't think that they will be needing it in the next few decades.

 

Ever since Sept. 11 and the difficulties faced by the airline industry, the city has backed away from its plan for the third runway and building a midfield terminal to be built at/near where the IX Center stands. Hopkins still has some excess capacity and with the arrival of Peak Oil, it's doubtful that Hopkins will fill to capacity.

 

I don't mean to start a debate about Hopkins future, which has been discussed at the Hopkins expansion thread at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3010.0

 

Or about Peak Oil:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2706.0

err, i'm not talking about fashion shows, that was clearly labled as an example of a multi-site type of convention. conventions dont always need to be held all in one place.

 

certainly you don't think outboard motor fishing types mix much with the cigarette speed boat crowd?

 

or that there will any problem with going from the cc to the med mart, which is an off-site?

 

whatev, it's not even an issue until the ix comes down, and that wont be for a long time. some of those shows might be lost after that, but not all of them.

 

 

point is that Cleveland clearly goes after the big "one-shot" conventions. This isn't a market (nor is any of the midwest) that can afford to splice up conventions.

 

no, the point is now you see conventions can be and are multiple site affairs at times. that has absolutely nothing to do with fashion shows, the midwest or anything else. the med mart will be an off-site, so at the very least "multi-site" will most certainly become a part of cleveland med-related conventions in the future.

 

i also dont think thee largest shows around are what "cleveland clearly goes after" at all, nor should they always be. why fix solely on the largest conventions and ignore the smaller ones, which in reality is more where cleveland can and does make waves? this is the bread and butter and the future of the convention biz -- you dont have to take my word for it, i am just relating the ongoing discussions i read on brewed fresh daily blog.

 

regardless, from what kjp said this discussion is a moot point if the ix center isnt going anywhere. the good news is in that case is cc planners can focus on making a top-notch modern facility and not have to worry about size so much.

 

A wish list for Medical Mart-Convention Center

Posted by Sarah Hollander November 29, 2007 11:51AM

 

Cleveland's new convention center should be downtown, flexible, expandable, adaptable, upgradeable and eco-friendly, according to Positively Cleveland.

 

The city's convention and visitors bureau released a wish list today to help guide decision-making...

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart/

 

To read the report: http://www.coolcleveland.com/files/docs/PosCle.pdf

[/size]

 

 

The report is 63 pages long.

Medical Mart developers narrowing down locations

Posted by Sarah Hollander

December 06, 2007 11:25AM

 

 

The Chicago-based company that plans to build a medical mart in Cleveland ideally wants it located in the same building as a convention center, officials said Thursday.

 

Merchandise Mart Properties officials also said at a news conference Thursday that they have narrowed the location options from about a dozen to a handful, but would not disclose what the sites are.

 

Company officials said they are looking for a 7- to 10-acre site with 1,000 parking spaces. Also on the wish list is a permanent exhibit hall of 100,000 square feet and a conference facility of 100,000 square feet to work along with a 300,000-square-foot convention center exhibition hall...

 

more at: http://www.cleveland.com/medicalmart/

Merchandise Mart President Chris Kennedy has said the Medical Mart portion of the project could be done in about two years, with the convention center following a year or two later.

 

Done as in built or plans finalized?

I infer built. Too bad the article forces readers to infer.